DISQUS

Dianna · 2 months ago

i thiink all that happens to people its for a reason. maybe god hates them and maybe satan loves them. but suffering in life is something we all have to go through weather its metal or physical. i believe in karma to a certain extent. i think if the person is strong to and dedicate their minds to healing and getting better is apon us. will power. if you believe that you yourself is gunna get through whatever it is, you'll get through. but if you pray and pray for a god that you dont even kno exists i think its a waste of time. satanism represents self indulgence, sometimes thats what you need, to believe in yourself and love yourself. everyone has their own opinion, to somemaybe begging god for mercey works on them. there is still that big percentage on god not listeing to their prayers. its really up to the patient on their beliefs and reality. i'm only 18 and i'm gunna become a nurse someday. i love the way you wrote this blog. it really gets you thinking on the more inportance on ones health and survival. thanks dude.

paul · 2 months ago

dear nurse,, i hear you.. i myself do not belive for one second that if people dont believe in one faith or another that they are wrong. that makes every faith wrong.. remind your ill that they are good people ,, i truly belive in most of the teachings from christianity to muslim and all others.. they all say the same things. " do unto others".. sounds like you do! all you can do is your best and show compassion greater than any religion and that means you care about people...

Astreja · 3 months ago

Stephen75: "There is a thing called the sovereignty of God. In short that means God will do what he wants."

*WHACK* (Using Her Clue-by-Four, the Springy Goddess points to a large banner at the top of the page) Ahem. What part of Ex-Christian do you not quite get, Stephen?

"I am a christian and i have weathered a lot. I will say there is no answer."

I am not a Christian, and I, too, have weathered a lot. In My opinion, Siddhartha Gautama answered the question with two words: Sarva duḥkha.

Life is messy, and people frequently get hurt. Positing a manipulative and powerful god as the architect of Life, the Universe and Everything just makes things messier, and even more people get hurt.

"This is God's world. You are God's property. Don't ever think you own yourself because you don't."

I'm calling argumentum ex rectum on the above scheisse.

"Peace... only comes to us after submission."

Ah. This is obviously some strange new definition of 'peace' that I wasn't previously aware of. No, thanks.

Richard · 2 years ago

Jim, Ray, Atheist nurse, and others- thank you for your kind remarks. This has been an interesting discussions, drive-by shootings notwithstanding.

I have been thinking about this issue for a couple of days now and have had another thought or two. I work part of the time in a rural clinic in Texas so I routinely treat a lot of highly religious (and conservative) people. Most of the time, their religiousity is not at all an impediment to anything, and usually in fact seems to be a source of strength for them, if for no more reason than it imbeds them in their community. So, usually, I let their faith be whatever it is and focus on what I know, which is to employ more earthly means (all the things psychotherapy does)to help them, and almost always the two are not in conflict. There is no reason why one may not believe in God and yet come to recognize that, by golly, I *am* mad at my sister after all for what she did and I *do* tend to focus excessively on my health when I get anxious.

That said, there have been a few people Ive treated whose religion really is toxic to them. They dont know it, and I dont say that, but its clear that it is maladaptive, prevents them from growing, alienates them from potential help, and beats down their self esteem. I have had people tell me through gritted teeth that they are indeed *not* angry because they are a Christian and have handed the fact of their husbands abusiveness over to God and thats then end of it. The belief systems of such patients are all but impenetrable and do not respond or soften much no matter what I do.

For a long time this really bothered me. I felt as though these had been treatment failures. Then, I realized something: these folks almost always end treatment *thankful* for how much theyve gotten out of it. In other words, they really do get better. Their religiosity is just as dense and defensively-driven as ever, yet they seem really to feel better.

I say this to highlight something that others have touched on too: never underestimate the raw power of human empathy. Having someone to talk to about whats bothering you (even when you deny anything at all is bothering you) and being listened to without criticism or judgment or having someone trying to make them feel better is an amazing experience. *Especially* in fundamentalist cultures where literally everything you think or feel or do is saturated in moral valence, being listened to and having ones feelings accepted uncritically can be a very new experience. Empathy is deeper than, and cuts under, every theology.

This shouldnt surprise us, I dont think. We are able to feel joy and pain and fear and warmth and intimacy long before we can talk, and much longer before we can theologize. We are literally wired for sharing our emotions. It isnt always a satisfying response to us in the medical world who usually want something to *do* to help our patients, but I do think we need to remember (I have to remind myself this all the time) that there is little as precious or as moving as being listened to and understood. It sounds touchy-feely, but its true. Being really heard is a rare experience for many people and I have seen many people weep when they first feel it. (One slightly cynical observer suggested that all the stuff that goes on in psychotherapy, all the insights and interpretations and homework etc, just provides something for the therapist and patient to talk about while the relationship itself heals.)

So, atheist nurse, I think a lot of time you dont need to have a deep reply when someone asks you why God hates them. You should mainly listen, and if you can, talk to them about what theyre feeling. Help them sort it out. It can be really liberating just to be able to say whats behing their question. Someone asked if "does God hate me" mean "am I alone" -- maybe, the meanings to these things are always individual, but to me it sounds angry. For your patient to be able to verbalize anger at God without you recoiling in horror at such a blasphemy -- i.e., to "normalize" that feeling -- would be (pardon the inappropriate pun) a Godsend for them.

So, just hear them; you dont necessarily have to try to soften the defense. It will probably soften on its own in time (defenses are always most rigid in acute stress). Or, to say it another way, just by listening and being empathic and showing an interest in what theyre feeling can soften the defense. I guarantee you, if you really listen empathically, you will be the one person they remember from the hospital (or whereever you work).
Sorry for the long winded reply. The world is shades of grey to me. I am a shrink rather than a surgeon, after all.

Richard

Bill · 2 years ago

To Norton,

I really don't believe you are for real. Something tells me you are being a wiseguy. But I do want to make a point and say one of the most devout Christian doctors in my department can be the most unconpassionate asshole in the world.

xrayman

Poltergoost · 2 years ago

NORTON SAID:

"Frankly, I don't want an atheist health care professional treating me.

I think they will despise and, at a subconscious level, not do their best."

Good, maybe more of you christians will feel that way, and you will all get sick and leave this world for good.

Huey · 2 years ago

Norton said:

"Frankly, I don't want an atheist health care professional treating me.

I think they will despise and, at a subconscious level, not do their best."

That statement and attitude, my dear moronic poster, harkens back to the 60s and prior. How many years did the blacks, asians and latins have to listen to such incredibly ignorant and bigoted remarks (and still do in some locals)? And here you are, spouting the same hateful drivel.

My parents raised me to believe that bigots are just plain stupid, uneducated or both. So you can guess what I think of you!

Bill · 2 years ago

Hi Ahteist Nurse,

I am an atheist xray tech. I work in a large very busy hospital. I think I provide my patients with as much compassion as humanly possible. The most important thing I have learned over the years is just to listen. So many heath care professionals will tune out the concerns of the dying patient and put it in professional get the job done mode. I have listened to the fears of many dying patients. Athough I don't spend as much time with any given patient as a nurse, I do see the same very ill people day in and day out and get to know many of them. The fact that I don't believe in an invisible man in the sky plays no role in my patient care.

If someone gives me the "Why Me?" line, I hit them with the absolute truth. I say, "Life is not fair and it never will be and it doesn't matter who you are."

Ironically I have more patients who leave me with a "May God Bless You," than I can count. I politely offer my most sincre thank you.

xrayman

AA · 2 years ago

Ya know....I was gonna say something about the percentage of scientists creating the medications and technologies that help those of us who are sick or otherwise disabled live a more comfortable life. But it has become clear to me that most of the theists replying to this post are close minded, big mouthed, bigots. There is no amount of reason that you will consider if it goes against your invisible sky daddy.
Should you find yourself in need of surgery or some kind of medication, ask yourself this. "What are the chances that my doctor or the chemists who created or discovered my medication are atheists?" You can refuse care at this point, and good riddance to you.

Unknowing1 · 2 years ago

The reasons that a bible toting nurse could give are far worse in my opinion.

I've heard Bible believing people say "he must have done something really bad in his life to get cancer". I personally wouldn't want someone judging my family member and equating their illness with sinning or even going to hell.

I'd much rather have a nurse who says I don't believe you are hated. I don't believe someone has to label themself to do that. All they have to be is a compassionate individual.

Let the Christians and the preachers be the asses. Let them explain to the person how it's God's will that they suffer and die, that they are a horrible individual and that they are going to Hell. What a comforting conversation that is.

RubyHypatia · 2 years ago

Ever hear that when a child is saved from danger that it was his/her guardian angel? I guess Adam Walsh and Jessica Lunsford didn't have guardian angels?

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Dear Athiest Nurse: I would love to have you care for me as you seem honest and sincere. Question: With all the sick people you see begging for god's mercy, did you ever once see one unexplained healing from one begging for god's mercy???? Thanks.

Passerby · 2 years ago

Maxwell Custer, I've got an idea of what you can do. BELIEVE IN ALLAH! Muhammed, why do Christians always have to make things so difficult?

Cheers

Deacon Barry · 2 years ago

I am also an atheist nurse. In college we were taught that spirituality is one of the activities of living, along with eating, elimination and hygeine, and that tending to it is part of the holistic treatment of a patient. I wouldn't dream of pushing my non-belief onto a religious patient, just like I wouldn't push my political beliefs. If a patient gets comfort from their religion, then that's fine by me.
Likewise with colleagues. There is one nurse on my ward who's a devout Christian - and this is Scotland, so it's not such a common thing as it is in the USA - she knows I'm an atheist, but that's as far as it goes. We just don't talk religion, and the workplace remains harmonious.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Whenever I hear about someone saying "Why is God letting this happen to me?" I have to think that person has a staggeringly inflated ego. Why other people and not you? They never said "Why did God let that happen to a quarter million people?" when the Christmas Tsunami hit.

Meanwhile, I do think we should tread lightly around sick people with faith problems. They have problems enough as is.

And... sigh... Emanuel Goldstein offering another nugget of his particular brand of wisdom. Bob help him if he ever loses his precious faith. What a thud that will be.

And isn´t it special how he seems to think atheists would be wrong to inflict their ideas on others, when he has no problem whatsoever doing the same to us?

-Leonard

Binh · 2 years ago

Dear atheist nurse; you can of course do what you want, but if I or any member of my family are every in your facility, keep away from me.

Also, just as you don't want to hear about their beliefs, keep yours to yourself if you end up around me or my family.

It is a patients right.

goditsme · 1 month ago

My problem is that I do believe and Know there is a God and in fact that Jesus is God. That is not the problem with my belief or unbelief. My unbelief comes when everyone else gets to have nice things like money, cars, homes and most of them come from selling drugs, committing other crimes and when I try to do something good I get crap for it. Surely I beleve God is all seeing, knowing and present. So he knows the ridiculous amount of sufferings I've endured in my life. So when then will my break come? Jesus came that we would have life and have it more abundantly..so where then is my abundance. It does me no earthly good if my abundance is in heaven. Why must I suffer so? I'm 45 and just looking to get a break and get a place of my own where this present sufferings will cease but nothing doing yet. I don't understand and I honestly can say I always will blurt out that I hate God when things go wrong that is the first thing to come out of my mouth. Makes me angry that I do that so then surely I must not be saved. Paul said why do I do the things I do the things I hate to do I do. He said it's because of the sinful nature it's just natural. But if I said the sinners prayer asked Jesus into my heart and was genuine about doing so why then has this happened to me. Anger and rage come exploding out of my mouth and then I'm filled with regret and repenting my life away all over again. Where then is my peace and salvation. Surely I don't have peace if this is happening. I don't understand and keep asking God and waiting on him for answers but when I think they've come and start doing well it happens all over again. Am I saved or not? Does God love me or not? This very question is what brought me to this site today. The question of: Why does God hate me? I said I give him my life, asked him into my heart, read the bible, go to church, give him my trust and then he lets me down all over again. Some would say it comes from the devil but God is on the throne and in complete control of everything. I feel like a female JOB only unlike JOB I can't keep my mouth shut. Who knows maybe that's why. Wonder if I'll ever know. God, do you hate me? Have I not been trying to please you? Do you know how much this hurts me and tears me up inside? Do you really think I like when I say I hate you? Do you really think I like that this happens to me? Do you have a place for me in your kingdom? Am I just a lie? Why does everyone hate me and why are they all mean to me. I bother no one and go out of my way to be alone and yet I'm constantly attacked by people and evildoers. What is it God? What do you want from me? What is it you request of your diligent servant? I do no understand. I've tried. I've really tried. Please help me to know the truth of how you feel towards me. Don't you love me? You said in your Word you do but do you? God, why do you hate me?

AtheistToothFairy · 1 month ago

goditsme: God, why do you hate me?

goditsme,

Even as an avid atheist, I have to admit there is something about your chosen name that I like.

The bottom-line answer to most of the questions you posed in your heartfelt (but non-paragraphed) outreach to us, can be summed up in three easy words:

God----Doesn’t----Exists

Your earnest cry for help to god, is the perfect example as to why the bible god can’t be part of our reality.
How many millions of others, cry as you do, and never get a reply from god.

On the bright side, god does NOT hate you, because he would have to be real to do so.

On the flip side of things, you’re pretty much on your own, but have yourself, your family, and friends to help you.

Once you stop trying to appease this imaginary god each day, you’ll be able to spend more time addressing life’s problems and hopefully finding some solutions to them, under your own steam.

ATF

buffettphan · 1 month ago

goditsme,

Address these same questions to Zeus, Thor, and a milk jug. See what kind of responses you get.

Then visit a few websites:


jesusneverexisted.com
http://pocm.info
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com

And a recent post here on ExC by a former minister:

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2009/11/ther...



In the meantime, continue doing the right thing because it is the right thing (i.e. not selling drugs, etc.)

45 is not too late.

BP

Dogmeat · 2 years ago

@binh

So you refuse to deal with any person who happens to be engaging in any sort of soul searching or reasoning? Even when it's out of a genuine plea for answers?

Wow.

Jannah · 2 years ago

WOW Binh.... what swine did you come from? Someone is sharing their grief and concern for others and you attack with arrogance...

Im so sorry for you

eel_shepherd · 2 years ago

People, when they're in the hospital, or sick or injured, are at a pretty low ebb; and different circumstances call for different responses.

With people who are currently in a good-health regime, or who are just strong people generally, I don't fool around. But with people who are in a physically or mentally weakened state, I hesitate to take away their comfort talismans unless I'm positive that that's what would be the best for them. Even then, I'll let the first couple of opportunities go by, because I could be wrong, and the stakes are high.

With people who seem to want/need me to be on board with their religious leanings, I just say, "you're talking to the wrong person, I don't think that there is any god," and in that way, stating it as an opinion, it decreases the threat level to what may be keeping it together for them at the moment. They can just say to themselves, "well, I may be sick and weakened, but at least I'm not as far gone as that atheist moron." Later on, when/if they get stronger, we can take up the evidence, or just let it go.

From "Somewhere Down The Crazy River":
"...Take a picture of this/
The fields are empty, abandoned '59 Chevy/
Laying in the back seat listening to Little Willie John/
Yea, that's when time stood still/
You know, I think I'm gonna go down to Madam X/
And let her read my mind/
She said `That Voodoo stuff don't do nothing for me.'..."

Atheist Dad · 2 years ago

My grandfather is dying of cancer right now. He only has a short time left. I was a christian just one year ago. I hear my family saying things like. "He is going to a better place." This seems to comfort them.

I am just glad to have him as a grandfather, and I will cherish his memory.

The thought of him going to heaven maybe comforting to them, but it begs the question, why would God let him suffer?

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion no matter how satisfying and reassuring - Carl Sagan

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Actually, if the atheist nurse were to take away the comfort talismans of the patient, the effects could be detrimental.

Or maybe not.

The point is, she doesn't know. In fact, if she were to say things that caused the patient discouragement, thus weakening them, she could probably be sued.

Justifiably.

As for Binh, he has the right to tell the atheist nurse to stay away form him, just as you all would have the right to tell the bible toting nurse to stay away.

Lynn · 2 years ago

Beautifully thoughtful, well-reasoned and authentically compassionate.

It's good to know that there are wonderful people like you in the nursing profession!

Ellytoad · 2 years ago

Binh...

Where did the poster say that she does or says anything in response to her patients' spiritual musings? Where does she say that she keeps them or their families from praying for them, or tells them that prayer doesn't work? Or, even reveals her personal beliefs in the first place? As amazing as the concept might seem to you, maybe she doesn't. Wow, fancy that!

So, can we say "preconceived notions?"

If she is merely doing her job, then, there's no logic or base in demanding that she stay away from you if she should ever be working in your facility should you become ill.

So chill out, okay?

FormerFollower · 2 years ago

I would be *delighted* to have an atheist nurse taking care of me. I always seemed to end up with the bible-toting christ-bitten freaks.

I am also in the medical profession, and what I think is interesting is that most of the time, a patient who comes in babbling in tongues and talking to jesus is immediately diagnosed as a psych admit. There is a fine, fine line between the 'baptism of the holy spirit' and psychosis, and I would say the line is so fine as to be invisible to nonexistant. In the church I used to attend, in fact, the more a person exhibited psychotic behavior, the more likely they were to end up being recruited for the prayer ministry.

GodBoy666 · 2 years ago

Atheist RN, While I'm not in the medical profession , my thought goes out to you to be faced with the dilemma with which you must confront.

I assume that you entered the profession to provide the best care possible and that you truly try your best to follow the Hippocratic oath (First, do no harm) as well as the positive side of that by providing the highest level of care possible; mental and physical.

In a society that has been fed such pablum virtually from birth how do you help the sick and dying know that they have not been "forsaken" by a capricious deity.

I think that while binh meant what s/he said, the converse is true too (for me anyway) just substitute Christian for atheist in the post.

I believe we are at a crossroads in the "whatever you want to think is fine" debate. I think that it is ok to drop subtle phrases the way Christians do that give the listener an opportunity to pursue it more with you, or just ignore the phrase.

For example, when someone asks you why they have been chosen to suffer and/or die, you could tell them that you don't believe that they were chosen for that at all and then stop there. That way, if they want to pursue that with you, you can tell them what you believe while maintaining sensitivity to their beliefs.

I agree that some form of seminar or class in dealing with the emotional side of suffering and death should be taught and that in a seminar/class like that that the issue of handling neurotic beliefs like Christianity should be covered in detail. I don't know of anything like that now, but I think the move toward that is inevitable.

I wish you the best in your search for answers in dealing with this difficult issue.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Former Follower, as a medical professional you could easily get sued for your bigoted attitude toward people with beliefs different from yours.

I wouldn't want someone with your attitude, theist or atheist, around me, thats for sure.


And ellytoad, I would agree with your answer to the extent that if she keeps her beliefs to herself, no problem.

But I don't want anyone pushing atheism on sick people any more than I want them pushing theism

Just do your fucking job.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

And godboy, you have no business dropping "subtle phrases" than a fundie does.

So keep it in your pants.

Danny Tuason · 2 years ago

To the atheist nurse,

I am deist but I would be also be delighted to be sereved under you. Actually I would prefer you than a bible toting nurse.

Peace!

Danny

Danny Tuason · 2 years ago

(this is what I meant!)

To the atheist nurse,

I am deist but I would also be delighted to be served under you. Actually I would prefer you than a bible toting nurse.

Peace!

Danny

Richard · 2 years ago

Atheist RN-
Yowzer! What a hard topic. I can relate. I am an atheist psychiatrist and I come across this issue all the time. I dont pretend to have the correct answer but here are some of the thoughts I have had about it over the years.

First, general priciples: you should never challenge a defense unless youre able to put something in its place. People believe these sorts of things not just because theye been taught to, they believe them because these beliefs serve some emotional function for them. In general, the belief that suffering is somehow deserved functions, weirdly, to enhance the persons sense of control and sense of being taken care of.

Therapists who work with abused children note that such children will commonly blame themselves rather than their parents. The logic seems to be: I am weak and vulnerable, and I know it. If my parent is really awful, then I am powerless and at their mercy. If it is my fault, at least there is something I can do: I can be better. I can find out what I am doing to deserve this and stop doing it.

I think suffering patients who blame themselves are doing something similar. It gives them some sense of efficacy -- better than the alternative, anyway, which is that there is no larger answer to "why." If they suffer because of sin, they have something to work on, namely, ferreting out their sin, really repenting, being a better CHristian.

Other Christian rationalizations have similar functions. Saying its God's inexplicable will seems to blame God and thus contradict what I just said, but remember that here the emphasis is different, for many CHristians also believe God will ultimately bring good out of bad. Again, the person is comforted (though by being taken care of, in this case, rather than being empowered to work on sin).

Either way, these beliefs -- which play a comforting role in their psychology even when things are going well -- are doubly "necessary" for them when they are ill, and scared, and in pain, which is of course when were are all at our worst and most needful of solace.

That said, what to do? Well, primum non necere (first, do no harm, for those unfamiliar with this term). Directly challenging these beliefs is almost certainly going to do more damage than good, however destructive these sorts of beliefs feel to us. Again, they are there for a reason; their psychology *needs* them, for now. And anyway, such a tact will most likely just alienate you from them. So, confrontation is out (Im not suggesting this is what you would do, but Im just being thorough).

I have found that it is more helpful to attempt to subtly "reframe" (as psychotherapists say) these beliefs into a more "benign" version. Suggesting, for example, a shift in focus from their sin to God's love will remain within thier framework and be more adaptive. I remember being told, when I was a Christian, that "God's will is not always done." This was a revelation for me, and, as far as I can tell, consistent with the theology. It opens up the possibility that you arent really being punished without suggesting that God isnt in charge, which would be scary for them. It keeps the possibility of Gods love and undermines the emphasis on sin. Of course, this presumes you could do this in clear conscience. I, myself, confess that I could not, as, beig an ex-christian, the focus on sin is just too triggering for me to even enter into imaginatively. And for me it feels dishonest to suggest something I not only disbelieve, but disbeleive rather strongly. But I know some former fundamentalists who yet remain generic theists or liberal Christians who feel comfortable doing this.

Another approach would be to elist the help of a friendly pastor or chaplain, whose focus will be soft, "gentle" and comforting, rather than root-out-the-sin. They are used to dealing with these sorts of questions, generally believe what they're syaing, and I have no problem recommending one to help someone through such a crisis of faith. I do this on the priciple of what helps this person the most. I myself belief a nontheistic belief-system is better -- but that is clearly my value, not the patients.

Finally, tried and true secular appraoches are not always out of place with theists and not necessarily in conflict with their values. Shifting the focus from "why" -- which, you could honestly admit, may be unanswerable -- to what they could do *now* to feel better is empowering and conducive to treatment. Teaching them relazation techniques, some cognitive restructuring, education about the disease all enchance a sense of control. And of course, as all good clinicians know, just listening to someones pain without trying to fix it is perhaps cliche' but nonetheless incredibly powerful.

That was longwinded and incomplete, but those are some preliminary thoughts. What a great question. How it helps!

Jim Arvo · 2 years ago

Richard,

That was really fascinating. I can't think of the last time I read such an informative post. Hope you stick around.

mike · 2 years ago

Binh

You are yet another christian that is all talk and little of what you preach. How dwells the love of christ in putzes like you. Your letter shows your true attitude. What a fake, what a phoney.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Dear Richard,
Thank you for your helpful and compassionate comment.

I have seen cases( such as my father who beame an christian shortly before his death) who took great strength and an almost erie calm in the face of devastating illness.
I've also seen the type of cases that the atheist nurse describes.

The difference, in those cases that I've observed seem to depend on the following; 1) the form of theism( for some reason catholicism seems the least comforting, followed by weird little pentacostal sects).
2) the pyschological profile of the individual( how neurotic are they). 3) the nature of the illness. The greater the pain or debilitation involved in the course of the illness the more likely I've found them to wonder what they have done to deserve this.
For athiests or agnostics in similar situations I've seen a responses that varied from stoicism, to bitterness( mostly over missed oportunities)and everthing in between. Again the main differences are the nature of the illness, and the psych profile of the individual.
Ray
I hope that when my time comes that I find someone as wise as Richard to handle my case.

John of Indiana · 2 years ago

When my mother was dieing of Sepsis, the doctor called the rest of into the conference room and said "she's in God's hands now".

I knew at that point that she was good as dead.

In all fairness, she was beyond help, maybe the sawbones thought he was comforting us.

And all you various anonymous trolls here today?
Get. Stuffed.

Emanuel Goldstein · 2 years ago

The very question about "why does God hate you" is loaded, on the order of "have you stopped beating your wife?"

The Christian believes there is a purpose to life, and there is hope. After all, anyone can join God's side at any time, whatever their record.

Humanity is seldom so forgiving.

All the atheist can say is that this is all there is, and your suffering is all for nothing.

Further, as a patient, I do not have to have an atheist nurse spouting philosphy around me if I don't want to.

So long as she, or he, shuts up about her beliefs, its probably all right, unless they are one of the type of people who post here and despise believers.

In which case, I don't trust her and don't want her around anyway.

Patients have rights.

jannah · 2 years ago

s is our website as ex christians, for us, not for christians trying to preach. How dare come into our refuge away from you, and judge us. People come in here with many hurts, many issues arising due to other christians in their life, and many just confused but doubting...

Your pathetic and weak. Cant handle fighting one on one so just attack a website... how weak...

This website is great and all the support it gives people. Your not!

Someoe is sharing their concerns not talking about what they do. Dont come on here and presume to know what their motives or actions are when they are not clearly stated. If you want to prove a point, dont be an ass... if you want even a semblance of opportunity for conversion then got off your high horse and show "God's Love"...

Aspentroll · 2 years ago

"Dear atheist nurse; you can of course do what you want, but if I or any member of my family are every in your facility, keep away from me.

Also, just as you don't want to hear about their beliefs, keep yours to yourself if you end up around me or my family.

It is a patients right".

Hey binh:

Who shit in your cornflakes?

I don't think she was trying to take any rights away from patients. It seems to me that people like you have already lost your rights because "the giant toad under your back porch" already tells you what to say and think.
I hope you get to read this,
because I think you are a f*****g idiot.

.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Rather than say anything, 1. ask the patient what religion they are and then 2. offer to get a priest/reverend/rabbi/etc. of their religion to visit them and have them ask that person that question.

I don't think it'd due the patient any damage to tell them you are unable to answer the question, and would be glad to find someone who they can ask.

Maxwell Custer · 2 years ago

I've got an idea of what you can do. BELIEVE IN GOD. Jesus Christ, why do atheists always have to make things so difficult?

John of Indiana · 2 years ago

Hey, Maxwell Custer,Show us some PROOF of this "god" you speak of? Can't do it, can you, other than waving that Bronze-Age book of Myth Stew at us.
And, don't you know you're not supposed to take your lord's name in vain? as in "Jeebus Crisco, why do you atheists have to make things so difficult?"
Naughty naughty...

But to answer your question, because we question everything, not taking it on "faith", which I have heard defined as "Believing in something you KNOW is wrong in the first place".

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Atheist Nurse here (Sorry for Anonymous posting, I do not have a blog/Google account)

Judging from some of the comments I have received to my posting, I feel that I should provide some clarification.

At NO time do I push my beliefs on anyone, patient or otherwise. I think proselytizing (Atheist, Christian, or other religion) is morally wrong, especially to someone who is a patient.

I made the erroneous assumption that those reading my posting would understand a nurse’s position. That is, it’s NOT about the nurse’s personal agenda -- It’s about what I can do to help my patients. I will let my patient hold my hand and pray, if that is what they want me to do. I have no problem being silent as my patient prays, and for those awkward times when I am asked directly what my “faith” is, I usually reply, “It’s not important what I believe, but it is important WHAT YOU BELIEVE”.

Furthermore, I usually ask patients who ask me “Why does God hate me?” if they would like a chaplain consult, but I have just felt that this is not always an adequate solution, and was, therefore, looking for other ideas.

Many thanks, Richard -- I had not considered the angle you presented. Would you ever consider giving a seminar (with CEUs of course!) that would address this topic?

Atheist Nurse

AtheistToothFairy · 2 years ago

Emanuel Goldstein wrote:
"The very question about "why does God hate you" is loaded"
---
Goldstein,
I disagree with your statement. It's quite a relevant question, in fact.


A god who loved his creation wouldn't kill them in a heartbeat for dumb reasons (see OT), nor would he burn them in hell for an eternity.

Such actions don't come from love but HATE, so if one assumes there is a god who is suppose to take care of each human and that human is suffering and god doesn't intervene, it's a natural self-assumption that either god doesn't care or he hates that person, or both.

>After all, anyone can join God's side at any time, whatever their record.<

And we can all join the side of the bigfoot believers to.
In both cases, it's all imaginary stuff and wishful thinking and you can't prove otherwise, now can you?



AtheistToothFairy

Telmi · 2 years ago

Atheist RN

IMHO, you have brought up points that deserve further discussion.

I would add that people like binh are close-minded and cannot see the forest for the trees when the trees are right before them.

Please continue to post.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Why have athesitic scientists...Dawkins tells us most scientists are atheists...filled the world with nuclear weapons.

Why have atheists let this happen?

Sure, Fundies may talk about the end of the world...but science has mad it a real possibility.

Why have they let this happen?

Anonymous · 2 years ago

I was raised lutheran and currently I am reinventing myself. regardless I have studdied the bible alot attended church regularly, but what I found to be so funny is that; the bible teaches to JUDGE NOT YET YE BE JUDGED, but so many christians constantly judge others according to there beliefs. What a contradiction. Maybe if most christians practiced more of what they preached we wouldn't get such negative posts like the one from binh , or other annonymous negative posters.

And to the annonymous post about the nuclear weapons and athiest's being responsible for them. where do you get this information?

Huey · 2 years ago

Anonymous said

"Why have atheistic scientists...Dawkins tells us most scientists are atheists...filled the world with nuclear weapons.

Why have atheists let this happen?"

Why have christian's let this happen? Scientists did not fill the world with a-bombs. God fearing politicians, elected by god fearing people who are terrified of what will happen if an atheist (GASP) gets into office, filled the world with a-bombs. Politicians who very carefully and publicly expounded on their relationship with jesus in order to con votes out of the gullible. Elected officials who caved into demands from the christian right who believe that if all Americans are armed to the teeth, then we are a safer America.

Christians are the majority in this country and historically, always done their best to insure that the elected are just like them. Then they have they nerve to blame the resultant problems on atheists as a group, conveniently forgetting that even as large group, approaching 50 million by the latest estimates, we have almost no political power. What little we did have has been recently curtailed by a very christian Supreme Court.

Perhaps we should return to those righteous days when undesirables were made to sit at the back of the bus. Perhaps we should be forced to wear IPU or FSM emblems so that the pious will know us (and know what bathrooms we should be using).

Dear Atheist RN,

I understood what you were saying and asking. Unfortunately, when you post here, you have to expect the attacks from christians who are trolling so fast that they barely have the time to read, must less understand the topics that we discuss. They strike and then they move on to the next website, blog, what-have-you. They’re seeking instant gratification from their actions, a form of masturbation and most likely never read our responses to them, but we will continue to make them as they provide insight to each other’s thought processes.

You stated in your response to some of the more questionable posts that you felt like the patients talking to a chaplain was not enough. Now I am not a care giver so please forgive me if I ask a stupidly obvious question. Could it be when the patient is asking “Why does god hate me” that they are really asking “Am I alone”? Such patients are afraid (who wouldn’t be during such a time) and are probably looking for comfort and support. When they were healthy, they would be able to find such in their religion as they would be able to twist circumstances and coincidences to suit their emotional desires. But when they lay there dying, they are no longer able to do that.

This is a hard situation for you, but I don’t think it is because you are an atheist. I think the problem is that there is no common frame of reference. Try as we might, until we ourselves are in their situation, we can no idea what they are feeling. We can tell ourselves that yes, they are afraid, but we little comprehension.

I do know this: anytime a nurse has assuaged my fears, they did without mentioning god. So there are ways. I just wish I had the professional experience to you what they are.

I also know that I would be happy and proud to have a nurse like you, who quite obviously feels the pain of her patients, at my bedside.

Thank you for your heartfelt post.

twincats · 2 years ago

Wow, binh; talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!

As an agnostic, if I were sick or injured in the hospital, I would NEVER hesitate to accept the care of ANY nurse employed there, even a passionate fundamental Christian believer.

I guess binh is fortunate enough to live in an area that doesn’t have a chronic nursing shortage. Must be nice!

And that was a really excellent post from Richard the atheist psychiatrist, I really hope you hang around!

trancelation · 2 years ago

I guess the new thing among Christians is to target atheists in the medical profession. No surprise, given the recent study that found that atheist doctors are more likely to help the poor than Christian doctors. Whenever atheists make strides, Christians go on the attack and demand we stop existing, because we OFFEND them.

Binh: you are in idiot.

I can just see it now: a pious Biblethumper with diabetes or some other weight-related illness sitting in an examination room, a nurse taking their temperature and blood pressure, when all of a sudden the patient DEMANDS to know what the nurse's belief is.

A Christian focusing on things that don't matter? Scandalous!

It seems clear to me that it is CHRISTIANS that do not want to co-exist. At least the ones posting here. The ex-Christians here are well-versed in my strong feelings against Christianity (including liberal Christianity), yet I have no problem co-existing with the many, many Christians where I work. Perhaps because where I work is a large company that ha syet to be taken over by a religious psychopath. Regardless, one of my best friends where I work is an ardent Christian, with Christian tattoos covering his entire body. Yet he and I get along famously; most people where I work will ask one of us where the other is when one of us is out. Just another example of the willingness of some people to co-exist, and the bigotry of religious lunatics like Binh.

Norton · 2 years ago

Frankly, I don't want an atheist health care professional treating me.

I think they will despise and, at a subconscious level, not do their best.

So, I am sorry, but I am uncomfortable with them and afraid of them.

I know that is wrong, but as much as health care costs my family, its just not something I have to put up with.

But my best wishes in your search.

.:webmaster:. · 2 years ago

This is ridiculous.

I wonder how some of these Christian posters would feel if the medical staff was Mormon, or Jehovah Witness, or Moonie, or Muslim, or Catholic, or Seventh Day Adventist, or Backslidden, or only nominally Christian, or not a "True Christian™."

People are people, Christians.

What retards.

Poltergoost · 2 years ago

<<< I know my family was praying for me.” If someone else in that same accident died, I have to wonder why did that person die if they had people praying for them too? In other words, why did God answer one prayer and not another’s? I thought Christianity taught that ALL prayer is answered. >>>>

Yeah, and I thought God was no respecter of persons.

Plus why did God fix this one person's marriage but, he didn't fix the other person's marriage?

I thought God once again was no respecter of persons, and he had no favorites.

Plus God hates divorce, however he still will not answer that one person's prayer by restoring their marriage. This happened to someone else I knew in the past who served Jesus for many years as a faitful christian, and still God "Who hates divorce" allowed their spouse to walk out on them.

You are right Webmaster. A lot of these christians are retards, of course we shouldn't be too surprised, because Jesus taught christians to follow his example because Jesus was a retard himself.

eel_shepherd · 2 years ago

Richard wrote, immediately above this one, assuming I can type fast enough...:
"...We are literally wired for sharing our emotions...."

That line jumped right out at me. Very true statement. I remember once sitting in a loud pub, with people chattering away and billiard balls clacking and video games beeping etc etc etc. And way off in the distance was a jukebox playing "First We Take Manhattan" by Jennifer Warnes, with guitar fills by Stevie Ray Vaughn. By comparison to the virtual white-noise racket going on in the bar, the volume of the song was less than whisper volume. And yet I heard it and seized right on it. I remember thinking, "I'd have heard that at any volume."

A line by the same songwriter who wrote the song just mentioned goes, "...they are leaning out for love/ And they will lean that way forever..."

The constant conflicting monkey-chatter that makes up the mental state of a fundamentalist religionist, whatever the religion, is a parallel with the racket in the pub that night. But we exist on many levels simultaneously, and there is always an audience for elegance, or just sense at at least one of those levels at any given moment.

The point? No point, really. Just that I agree that a patient could come out of a session feeling better and with their defences softened in spite of the fact that their dogma has to all appearances resisted all efforts to cut through it. The eons have invested more in building up that organism than the organism has invested in trying to undermine itself.

Huey · 2 years ago

Thank you Richard! The word 'empathy' was what I was looking for in my post but could not think of.

I hope you post on other topics. I like your insights.

Jerry · 2 years ago

Thanks for sharing your feelings on this; yes, it's very sad. "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People" written by a Rabbi, may have some useful ideas for you, though it's not in complete alignment with fundamental Christians.

I hear similar statements from even young people when it comes to their own health, or the health of their children, or even work issues: Why isn't God blessing me?

What surprises me is that these people abrogate responsibility for their own health and wealth and think the results they are getting are based on God's giving or withholding blessings. Their kids are sick all the time and they wonder why, when in fact they are feeding their kids junk food all the time with tons of sugar and very few vitamins and minerals or fiber.

Another example is getting laid off from a construction site because the work is finished and wondering why a new job isn't magically given to them through God's blessings, instead of them going out and proactively looking for a job.

And If something does go well, they'll give God all the credit.

They don't seem to have a concept of sowing and reaping, even though that is covered quite well in the Bible by Jesus.

This kind of thought process is also very sad to me and I suspect these same people will be asking why God hates them when they are terminally ill too. And it gets passed on from generation to generation, and I don't know how to step in and intervene. :-(

Nerissa · 2 years ago

I'm in nursing school with one semester to go. Student nurses are taught to be supportive of all their patients. This includes Christians, atheists, minorities, gays, etc.

I agree strongly with this approach. Nurses should provide the best care they can and not attempt to impose their opinions on the people they care for.

Nerissa Belcher

Anonymous · 1 year ago

God hates the poor and the needy with a vengeance. He always answers the prayers of the rich whereas he has the habit of stomping on the poor. This is his way of equality.

MJS · 1 year ago

God is something that one has to have belief in. I believe in good, but my faith is not as strong as I would like it be. I guess my main weakness is why would such a powerful and loving being allow the ones he so dearly loves fell so much pain. If anyone can truly answer this without smoke and mirrors I tip my hat to you.

Everyone of us has felt this deep horrible pain and everyone of us have asked why are doing this to me god, why?

Sure you can go to the bible and decipher parts of it make it seem like there is some sort of answer there, but it is truly a riddle.

Why is there so much hatred in the world? Why does god allow it?

Someone please answer this very simple questions.

Monkeys · 1 year ago

(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

(Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

Exodus 4:11"And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"

It seems clear from the Bible that God has no problem whatsoever with co-existing with esuffering or evil.

sconnor · 1 year ago

Also,

Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

2Ki 6:33 And while he yet talked with them, behold, the messenger came down unto him: and he said, Behold, this evil is of the LORD; what should I wait for the LORD any longer?

Ec. 7:14 14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of "adversity" consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.

Which can easily be translated with:

(The Contemporary English Bible)
Ec. 7:14 When times are good be happy but when times are bad think what it means. God made both to keep us from knowing what will happen next.

Furthermore,

The Hebrew word for "adversity" is [r or Ra' meaning:
adj
bad, evil
bad, disagreeable, malignant
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
evil, displeasing
bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
bad (of value)
worse than, worst (comparison)
sad, unhappy
evil (hurtful)
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
in general, of persons, of thoughts
deeds, actions n m
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
evil, distress, adversity
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical) n f
evil, misery, distress, injury
evil, misery, distress
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)

God -- according to the good book -- is responsible for all the calamities and evil, in the world. The supposition that god is all-loving, is contradicted by the bible-god, who is psychotic, disturbed, and an evil, megalomaniac, who uses terrorist threats, genocide and infanticide, to rule the world.

--S.

AtheistToothFairy · 1 year ago

MJS: "Why is there so much hatred in the world? Why does god allow it?"

Your 'vantage' point you ask these questions from, is all skewed, therefore you'll never find the answers from where you presently stand.

Just for a moment, remove any god from the equation and then perhaps you might come to realize that all bad things "just happen" and there is no god who "allows it".

Bad things from nature happen mindlessly and without any intellect behind them.

Human hatred is simply just part of the human animal and will vary in type and intensity for many reasons, some inherited and some from life's experiences.

However, combine hatred with religion and you have one heck of a formula for disaster.

ATF

Ciara · 1 year ago

Dear Atheist Nurse,

I am wishy washy when it comes to believing in God and generally listen to either an atheist or a Christian or any religious person if I am upset. A lot of your ideas make sense, but to a dying person who may be panicking inside, they would want someone to tell them that they are going straight to their savior's feet. Although I was raised Catholic, I was always confused about asking and receiving because I always asked, but never ever received. So basically, at their lowest moment, a sick person will be angry, perplexed, and torn when at the last minute their belief system has been challenged and they are then confronted with an atheist nurse who may be dropping subtle hints that God doesn't exist. This is my take on it as I try to imagine my own trip to the hospital down the road when I am finally confronted with my mind, my god, and and the possibility of an atheist caretaker. I imagine that your patients, though religious, are not necessarily dim, but grasping for security, and suspending any logic, which due to their upbringing, was probably not encouraged in any honest or appreciative way. My advice is to be kind and patient. They are terminally ill, but they are also at the end of the long road called life, which for most people is very difficult due to unfulfilled dreams, unrealized potentials, and personal misfortunes.

--Ciara

terry · 1 year ago

hi nurse I agree with you all the way a friend of mine got killed in a plane crash he was 25 a nice decent guy a friend who
i will miss very much i asked a vicker why were was god when the accident happend all he gave ma was a load of bullshit and i did end up very angry as my friend was a funeral director who he knew as well so i say theres no god if there is hes a mean evil bastard sorr if its a bit strong but thats how i feel

UNKNOWN · 11 months ago

Hello.

Im not athiest, but i give people the cold hard truth.
it may hurt, and it may not be want they want to hear, but at least it's backed by reality.

Doc · 11 months ago

I will not post a bible verse or say come back to the lord or you will go to hell. Just please look deep in your heart at what tou really believe. Don't blame God for evil in the world only ourselves. I've seen the worst of evil as a combat veteran of afghanistan. I had a hard time with some of it, but it was God who got us out. Just please, think about this comment.

sconnor · 11 months ago

doc

I will not post a bible verse or say come back to the lord or you will go to hell.

Curious, by not telling us, you still, did tell us. Next time, if you don't want to tell us something, keep your spewing, pie-hole closed.

Don't blame God for evil in the world only ourselves.

Why? According to your holy book of fairy tales, god created everything, including suffering and evil.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The Hebrew word for evil is [r or Ra' meaning:

adj
bad, evil
bad, disagreeable, malignant
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
evil, displeasing
bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
bad (of value)
worse than, worst (comparison)
sad, unhappy
evil (hurtful)
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
in general, of persons, of thoughts
deeds, actions n m
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
evil, distress, adversity
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical) n f
evil, misery, distress, injury
evil, misery, distress
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)

Additionally, in Ecclesiastes 7:14 the Hebrew word for adversity is also [r or Ra'

Ec 7:14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.

Which in plain English means:

When times are good be happy but when times are bad think what it means. God made both to keep us from knowing what will happen next.

And in 2kings and Proverbs the Hebrew word for evil is [r or Ra'

2Ki 6:33 And while he yet talked with them, behold, the messenger came down unto him: and he said, Behold, this evil is of the LORD; what should I wait for the LORD any longer?

Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The bible view is clear, your supposed all-loving, moral, god creates, misery, calamity, adversity and evil.

He also creates the wicked (the sinners)

The Hebrew word for wicked is [xr and means:

wicked, criminal
guilty one, one guilty of crime (subst)
wicked (hostile to God)
wicked, guilty of sin (against God or man)

Furthermore, why does your supposed god, continue to create souls, knowing he is going to send them to a planet where they will suffer in vile, unimaginable ways?

I had a hard time with some of it, but it was God who got us out.

Yeah, and how did he do that, exactly?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but troops are still fighting, suffering and dying in Afghanistan -- correct? What of the solders who did not get out? -- Did god just forget about them?

If your supposed god can wield his awesome power, bending the laws of nature to get you out of Afghanistan, how come he didn't use his awesomeness to just avoid the war in the first place? All wars for that matter?

Just please, think about this comment.

I have; and you are an idiot.

--S.

Robbie · 11 months ago

God hates me too; if not then how come everything I try to do has to be done the hard way. Simple things take hours to get right as if I dont have a brain. I am sick of it.

Anonymous · 11 months ago

I don't think you're a bigot or have implied so in any way what-so-ever. To all of those who believe this nurse is condemning anyone has missed the point. All she is stating is that it is more of an emotional trauma to believe that they are being punished by god than to accept simply that disease and hardships exist and it is NO FAULT of those suffering. For those who seek comfort in prayer and in a higher power, good for them for being able to hang on to something positive through their suffering. Any positive thinking can be beneficial to one's recovery, or acceptance to their future should their ailments be terminal.

The fact of the matter is that sometimes bad things happen to good people. I also agree that it is quite sad when people believe that they are being punished for some reason. I have oftentimes felt that I was being "punished" when things go wrong, and it is not a good feeling at all. This sort of negativity hinders rather than promotes recovery.

Everyone is entitled to his or her own beliefs without fear of being chastised for them. If one believes that there is a god with a plan for them and that belief gives them hope, then good for them. Oftentimes, however, those suffering or those who have lost family and friends tend to believe that god is punishing them, that god is spiteful, and this believe DOES add to mental stress. The person is wasting energy blaming themselves as opposed to seeing hope for the future. Dwelling on the past is never healthy anyway.

Michael · 10 months ago

The existence of evil and suffering is one of the most acknowledged reason for not believing in God. As a christian I can sincerely understand this dilemma. However, some things do need to be clarified. Now, before I continue, I would like to state that it is impossible to prove with total certainty that there is a god. With that said, it is also equally impossible to prove with total certainty that there is not a god. Both of them require faith.

As I became interested in atheism I discovered that there is an issue with its definition. Webster defines atheism as a belief that there is no God. This is a very difficult position to defend because it makes a positive assertion which takes on the responsibility of the burden of proof. It also includes "belief" which Webster defines as 1. conviction that certain things are true, 2. religious faith, 3. trust or confidence, 4. creed or doctrine and 5. opinion; expectation; judgement. In other words, it takes faith to be a strong/positive atheist. This is why many atheists have moved towards weak/negative atheism, which is really closer to agnosticism. This is also why I view atheism as a religion. They may no go to a church or a temple or a mosque and they may not read from a holy book, but they worship something. The question is what?

The interesting thing about the question of evil is that one must presuppose a moral law before evil can even be defined. The problem I find with atheism is that it rejects an absolute moral law. There is no ultimate standard as to what good or evil is or how it can be measured. It is up to the individual to decide or maybe even the society to decide but this does not work. It might be argued that morality is relative to the society in which one lives, but what happens when two different societies collide and have opposing views. Which one is right? It can't possibly be both.

The other point I would like to make about evil is that good could not exist without it. How do we know what joy is unless we can feel the anguish of pain? How do we know what warmth is without the cold? How do we know what love is without hate. I don't believe that this is the best world(yet), but I do believe it is the best possible world.

As I begin to dialogue with atheists more, I realize that their problem isn't necessarily with Christ but with christians. I can't help but agree with you on this. I have heard that the number one reason for atheism is christians. When atheists speak out against the evil acts committed by the church I agree with them. But they must also concede to the fact that atheist regimes such as China, Russia and the Nietschze influenced Germany are responsible for the murder of millions of people. Most atheists on this site are not militant atheist just as I am not a militant theist. That's why I find it disheartening when some atheists lump all christians, or religious people for that matter, in to one category, yet totally distance themselves from atheist that commit these horrendous acts. Same hypocrisy, different names. Politicized religion has always resulted in blood shed and all kinds of unspeakable evil.

I hope I don't come off as holier-than-thou or a bible-thumper or anything like that. I just wanted to share my beliefs on the problem with evil in as much of non-threatening way as possible. I' personally haven't suffered yet. Sure I've lost people but for the most part I haven't gone through any serious loss. I don't know how I will handle it. Sometimes I imagine what I would do if I lost my children or my wife. Honestly I hope and pray I would have enough strength to get through it.

To the atheist nurse that started this thread I would have no problem being treated by you, assuming your good at what you do. I would also love it if you shared your beliefs with me. I think that if people really knew why they believe what they believe then there wouldn't be so much animosity. Just really great, thought provoking dialogue.

Grace and Peace.

AtheistToothFairy · 10 months ago

Did you go out of your way to find and post here, your collection of common fallacies?

I, ATF, predict that today, right here on Ex-C, that you will be getting your head-handed-to-you .

Let's see how well I do prophecy.

ATF (Who lol every time they tell us that one needs faith to be an atheist)

glebealyth · 10 months ago

Michael, "As I became interested in atheism I discovered that there is an issue with its definition. Webster defines atheism as a belief that there is no God"

Webster has it wrong, and probably because of the tendency for things to be specified positively.

As far as I am concerned, as an atheist, I do not entertain a belief that there is no god, I do not believe in god.

I resent and refute your assertion that, despite not going to either a church or a mosque, I nevertheless worship something. This is news to me and I charge and require you to
a) back up your assertion that I have a ned to worship anything and
b) that you are in possession of knowledge about what it is that I worship.

As soon as you have discovered that you are unable to comply with those very reasonable requests, I expect you to return here with your tail between your legs, as it were, and apologize profusely.

At that point we may be able to have a dialogue. Until then you are nothing more than the usual ignorant, xian bigot that we have sadly become used to.

Peace,

David

bdp · 10 months ago

"This is also why I view atheism as a religion. They may no go to a church or a temple or a mosque and they may not read from a holy book, but they worship something..."

Wrong, I worship nothing.

sconnor · 10 months ago

michael

The existence of evil and suffering is one of the most acknowledged reason for not believing in God. As a christian I can sincerely understand this dilemma.

No you don't; you just settle for lame rationalizations, that I find impotent and wholly unsatisfactory.

The other point I would like to make about evil is that good could not exist without it. How do we know what joy is unless we can feel the anguish of pain?

Evidently you have not used your time to analyze this statement because if you did you would realize your conclusion is pathetic and trite.

To illustrate my point, read the poignant and germane words of Dostoevsky, who wrote, The Brothers Karamazov: Where Ivan retells a story about a little girl who gets punished for wetting her bed. She is beaten and flogged badly then she is locked in the outhouse in the freezing cold. Her face was smeared with sh*t and she was made to eat it.

This is a factual story, based on an actual court case.

Ivan points out, that people say, evil is necessary so that humanity can recognize what is good and recounting the story of this little girl he asks, "Can you understand such nonsense, my friend and my brother, my godly and humble novice, can you understand why this nonsense is needed and created? Without it they say, man could not even have lived on earth, for he would not have known good and evil. Who wants to know this DAMNED GOOD AND EVIL AT SUCH A PRICE?" (Emphasis added)

He also delivers another repulsive story of torture about Turkish soldiers cutting out infants from the mothers wombs; they would throw the newly hatched babes into the air catching them on their bayonets. " The main delight comes from doing it before their mothers eyes"

These examples aren't even the most vile, unthinkable, ways people can suffer. With so many people throughout history, who have suffered in so many abhorrent, revolting ways (ways we can't even imagine), how does one begin to codify or tabulate such unspeakable, agonizing, misery?

And then to conclude we need this evil, otherwise we wouldn't know good -- what a lazy, infantile platitude. I do not need a big vat of poison at the end of a cafeteria line to know there are many different tantalizing dishes, one more delicious then the other.

I don't believe that this is the best world(yet), but I do believe it is the best possible world.

Such arguments, for the necessity of suffering (evil) to make goodness more meaningful or apparent, are idiotic and shallow and crumble before the idea of an omnipotent God; for certainly a God -- THE CREATOR OF THE WHOLE UNIVERSE -- could produce a creation in which there were an infinite number of wonderfully, enjoyable, possibilities at every level, all of them good and all of them extremely and exponentially, pleasurable and satisfying, all the while achieving his goals, without the existence of prolonged, egregious, unimaginable suffering.

I would like to state that it is impossible to prove with total certainty that there is a god. With that said, it is also equally impossible to prove with total certainty that there is not a god. Both of them require faith.

WRONG.

As I became interested in atheism I discovered that there is an issue with its definition. Webster defines atheism as a belief that there is no God. This is a very difficult position to defend because it makes a positive assertion which takes on the responsibility of the burden of proof. It also includes "belief" which Webster defines as 1. conviction that certain things are true, 2. religious faith, 3. trust or confidence, 4. creed or doctrine and 5. opinion; expectation; judgement. In other words, it takes faith to be a strong/positive atheist.

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.
Here's another definition by Webster -- A lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/defin...

Funny how you ignored that definition.

More to the point, I would never make the assertive proclamation, there is NO god. As of now, no objective evidence has ever been presented to me of the existence of a god.

Now consider the following entities: Thor, Seven Headed Hydra, Griffin, Kali, Phoenix, Unicorn, Satyr, Ra, Minotaur, Ganesha, Mermaid, Banshee, Nymphs, Centaurs, Vishnu, Elves, Pixies, Trolls, Rama, Leprechauns, Odin, Brownies, Athena, Fairies, Shiva, Gnomes, Chupacabra, Lakshmi, Pegasus, Mothman, Apollo, Baal, Genies, Hades, Mithra, Cerberus, Golem, Gremlins, and on and on and on -- including 330,000 Hindu gods alone!

Do you believe that these entities don't exist?

Can they magically grant you wishes? Do you believe in any of those entities, even though the evidence is largely conclusive that they do not exist? If you did believe in them, then you could only believe in them, on faith.

But being a reasonably, educated person do you really go around, living day to day, practicing in a "belief" system, that believes in the non-existence of any of the entities, I mentioned? NO, that's absurd.

You just, simply DO NOT believe in those entities, because you see zero objective evidence of them existing -- you don't have to have faith, that they don't exist. And, in exactly the same way, we simply do not believe in a personal christian god -- It doesn't take belief or faith, there is just no objective evidence.

So in short, it is not that we "believe" that there is no god -- It is unbelief, lack of a belief or NO belief. Get it?

What you are attempting to do (quite feebly, I might add) is trying to level the playing field by asserting we use the same method in acquiring information -- this is patently erroneous.

Faith and reason are mutually exclusive. You either believe in something because of evidence (reason) or you believe in it because of a lack of evidence (faith). When something lacks objective evidence we simply do not believe it (as opposed to your semantic game of telling us we "believe" it's not true) There's a difference -- please take care to understand.

"When you examine the two distinct ways we obtain knowledge, more closely, we can see the methods are very different. Using reason and objective evidence is a process of examination, where you ask questions directed at amassing a body of knowledge, which is completely open to inquiry, you can either reject or confirm -- it is always open to the possibility of change.

On the other side of the spectrum, is religion and faith, which is a declaration of a collection of fixed beliefs intended to provide morals and meaning to life based on no evidence, but wholly, substantiated by faith -- not open to the possibility of change; religious truths are final."

Now, if you are making the extraordinary claim that a personal christian god exists, the burden of proof is upon you. But you already admitted you can't provide objective evidence so I digress.

--S.

boomSLANG · 10 months ago

Jesus christ, this sh*t gets tiresome.

Xian guest de jour, brays......"[Atheists] may no go to a church or a temple or a mosque and they may not read from a holy book, but they worship something. The question is what?"

Um, you are the one who came waltzing in here telling us that "Atheism" is this, that ,and the other thing....and that we, former Christians(FYI, we are NOT all "Atheists") "worship something".

Thus, when you figure out what we "worship", let us know, and then we can commence to annihilating your misinformed, fallacious, religious rhetoric. ' K?

boomSLANG · 10 months ago

Until our Xian guest(intruder) complies, I have some thoughts on this statement:

The other point I would like to make about evil is that good could not exist without it.

And don't you find it doom-laden with irony that, in order for your chosen religious philosophy to subsist, it is actually dependent on the very thing that it considers a bane to humankind?...i.e.."sin" AKA "evil"?

Also, you have quite the conundrum on your hands when it comes to the concept of "Heaven", as in, according to your hypothesis, there's either "evil" in "Heaven", or there's nothing "good" there. Take your pick.

I will not pretend to know you like you and your ilk pretend to know us, however, I do suspect that you simply do not think about such things, otherwise, you wouldn't be a "Christian".

"Faith": FAIL.

Dave8 · 10 months ago

Hey Boom,

Is FAIL an acronym?

F-oregoing
A-ll
I-ntellectual
L-ocus

;-)

boomSLANG · 10 months ago

Heh, good one.

Michael · 10 months ago

The ExChristian.Net blog exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind. It is not an open challenge for Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their religious beliefs.

I would like to apologize for intruding. I failed to read this statement on the home page before making my comment. I can see why you would be angry and again I apologize. I would like to respond to some of your comments but I now know that this is not the place for that.

boomSLANG · 10 months ago

I would like to respond to some of your comments but I now know that this is not the place for that.

If, after you've looked around and read some of the exchanges between Xians/EX-Xians and you honestly still feel you have something to say(something we haven't heard a bazillion times before), then bring it. If you haven't noticed, you wouldn't be the only Christian to stick around and give your opinion. Of course, the Christian philosophy doesn't claim to be "opinion", does it? 'Better make it count.

glebealyth · 10 months ago

Thank you, Michael. Your response is uncharacteristically gracious for a xtian.

I second BoomSLANG - we'll chat with anyone, but it certainly would be nice to have somrthing new to hear and discuss.

Peace,

David

Mister Douglas · 8 months ago

Just want to say that in spite of someone here saying this an Ex site and believers don't belong here I won't preach, but this page was designed to lure in people who are asking the question "Why does God hate me". So you get us here and then take pot shots at our beliefs. You attempt to take away all hope. If you don't want to really help believers, then maybe you should stop tricking us into landing on your site.
I had been a Christian and then a confirmed atheist, then in my late 20s I became a seeker and studied many religions and faiths. My seeking brought me right back to Christ at the age of 30 and in the more than another 30 years since I have met a lot of people who have lost their faith. My little crisis is typical I am sure, but I need hope not discouragement.
So since you obviously wanted me to come here and read your stuff (and I did) answer this:
What do you get out of setting up this little faith killing trap and why would you want to kill someones faith to begin with?
Someone mentioned "do no harm", you all are doing harm.
What does it profit you?
Oh and since I am no weak kneed goody-goody, get bent for wasting my time when I needed help you selfish creeps. Ex-Christians? Sounds like none of you have really gone deep enough into study to know God at all. You lost your faith and you would like to help others lose theirs. I just wanted to know whats going on in my life, not feel worse. In my life I have known medical people a plenty. I did some work several times for a group of psychiatrists and got to know them personally. Between nurses and shrinks I must say, you have a very high percentage of substance abusers and people with serious personal problems. So please quit thinking you are somehow superior to any other profession. Like one of the posts above says, just do your job and shut the hell up.

buffettphan · 8 months ago

Someone mentioned "do no harm", you all are doing harm.

No! No! No! You've got it all wrong. This place is a sanctuary in a mindless xtian-based society. We're not here to "evangelize"...that's something xtians do. We are here to support one another...which begs the question -- why isn't your church supporting you in your time of crisis?

I wish this site had existed back in the 80's when I needed help coping with a newly-converted spouse who overnight concluded I was "of the devil." (We both were former catholics.) Anyone remember the Phil Donahue show? That was how I happened upon Fundamentalists Anonymous and Richard Yao. But instead of instant information through the internet, I had to wait weeks and weeks to receive newsletters/books/etc through the mail. I found this site a few years ago by googling "ex-christian married to fundamentalist christian" and I found exactly what I needed. (Thanks Dave for creating this website and to everyone else who contributes to it. It's nice to know I'm in the company of some really great folks who just happen to be ex-c'ers.)

Between nurses and shrinks I must say, you have a very high percentage of substance abusers and people with serious personal problems. So please quit thinking you are somehow superior to any other profession. Like one of the posts above says, just do your job and shut the hell up.

High percentage of substance abusers? Superior to any other profession? That's just too funny, albeit in an ignorant sort of way, to be taken seriously. So don't dare tell us to be quiet. If you don't like the website, fine. Take personal responsibility for your own actions and click that X up there in the right-hand corner. Many of us come here for a reprieve from the buybull belt insanity that surrounds us daily. We don't need the likes of you spewing your lame ignorance all over our website.

Astreja · 8 months ago

Mister Douglas, your hope is bogus, your Jesus is a myth, and your god lives only in your own deluded mind.

We did not ask you to come here. We are not in the business of providing tech support for ancient Middle Eastern mythology. We are not here to bolster the faith of believers; we are here to provide a community for people who have left faith behind altogether.

You can't even take personal responsibility for landing on *our* site, even going so far as to post your slanderous little rant rather than having the integrity and common sense and wisdom to just click that little 'X' on your browser window. You wasted your own time, and it's your own fault.

We shall not be silenced.

AtheistToothFairy · 8 months ago

Douglas: You lost your faith and you would like to help others lose theirs

Faith in a DO-NOTHING god = A Faith worth NOTHING.

You say you were a 'confirmed atheist' at one point in your life.
Just what evidence had you studied to reach that temporary conclusion; if any at all?

ATF (Who thinks choosing to just ignore all gods, doesn't make one an 'atheist' at all)

Barbiebrains · 8 months ago

You were a guinea pig in a psych ward? LOL! Being an Ex-christian is NOT a profession...It's more like being a stripper: you attract the creepy Saturday night Bible-gropers, Sunday morning Christians, and sanctimonious trolls like you...they can't resist!

I pimp myself for laughs and chuckles. Ka-ching!!

Austeve · 8 months ago

Mr Douglas,

“…in spite of someone here saying this an Ex site…”

This sites title and disclaimer state simply and clearly the purpose for its existence. You have chosen to ignore that.

“…this page was designed to lure in people who are asking the question ‘Why does God hate me’. “

This sites title and disclaimer state simply and clearly the purpose for its existence. You have chosen to ignore that.

“My little crisis is typical I am sure, but I need hope not discouragement.”

What’s your problem?

“So since you obviously wanted me to come here and read your stuff (and I did) answer this:…”

Think here and take responsibility for your decisions.
This sites title and disclaimer state simply and clearly the purpose for its existence. You have chosen to ignore that.

“… What do you get out of setting up this little faith killing trap and why would you want to kill someone’s faith to begin with?”

It doesn’t need killing. The majority of posters arrive here because their ‘faith’ has been revealed as an abusive, lying, manipulative control-scam, and is already in tatters.

“…I just wanted to know what’s going on in my life, not feel worse.”

What “…crisis…” is preventing you from turning to your ‘faith’?

“So please quit thinking you are somehow superior to any other profession.”

Your decision, your words. And what on earth do you mean by ‘profession’?

PS: Relax. The bitterness you’re displaying for having ignored this sites title and taken what seems to you to be the wrong turn will make you feel even worse.
Consider sticking around to read some testimonials. You’ll find that a lot of the posters here also endured crises, perhaps similar to yours.
I gather, from the ones that I’ve read, that the main ‘crisis’ suffered was their reason revolting at the uselessness of their belief system and their resentment at having been so unquestioningly gullible.

Good luck,
S.

sconnor · 8 months ago

douglas

Oh and since I am no weak kneed goody-goody, get bent for wasting my time when I needed help you selfish creeps. Ex-Christians?

Oh, spare us your bullsh*t indignation and your Jr. psychological analysis.

If your FAITH can't handle criticism and scrutiny then it's not worth anything to begin with.

Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!! Go cry to mama.

Sounds like none of you have really gone deep enough into study to know God at all. You lost your faith and you would like to help others lose theirs.

You know god? Cool -- could you get his number so I can get to know him too?

...and don't waste your time pointing me to the bible. My two and a half year study of that book secured my lack of faith in the existence of a personal god. All you have done is manufactured a massive delusion, nothing but a human construct, where you convinced yourself Jeeeeesus takes an interest in you, loves you, and will save you -- if you telepathically link to his infinite mind and let him know you accept him -- cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.

--S.

glebealyth · 8 months ago

No sir, we do NOT attempt to remove all hope, but rather endeavour to introduce you to reality and rescue you from the lies which constitute and underpin xtianity.

Mister Douglas, you are trapped in the death cult prison and we are probably the only hope for your salvation.

Peace,

David

Thackerie · 8 months ago

Douglas, if your religion is the way, the truth, the light and all that good stuff its followers claim, why do you sound so BITTER? From what can be deduced from the rant you dumped here, it's not helping you at all and you appear to need a lot of help. Seriously.

boomSLANG · 8 months ago

Evidentally, it's another dump and run.

In any event, on the extremely good chance that it lurks......

Mr. Douglas: Just want to say that in spite of someone here saying this an Ex site and believers don't belong here I won't preach....

You won't preach, but you'll cast aspersions and call the site's members derrogatory names. Wonderful. Thank you for your contribution; thanks for illustrating that Christians are not being guided by any invisible, all-loving Being.

continues....but this page was designed to lure in people who are asking the question "Why does God hate me".

Firstly, it's a rhetorically-asked question in the context of this position of this site. Secondly, the site's moniker is clearly stated, as well as the disclaimer. You were under no obligation to navigate here, right? Right. 'Don't like it?..."click-off".

So you get us here and then take pot shots at our beliefs.

The Christian philosophy carries all of the central characteristics of a cult. Like any cult, Christianity first attempts to break you down...i.e..you are a wreched, untrustworthy "sinner" not even worthy of life. It then offers you the (only) "solution". Just because the Christian cult has more members than, say, the Branch-Davidian cult, it doesn't mean it's not a cult. Hence why the propagation of any cult-like mentality is deserving of scorn, ridicule....to include "pot shots". But again, you are under no obligation to be here.

You attempt to take away all hope.

There is no "hope" in living a lie. Notwithstanding, even if you are convinced that all your "hope" should be invested in the (off-chance) of an afterlife, then this moment; this very second, you are the one who is "hopeless".

If you don't want to really help believers...

It's really simple: If a believer is questioning his or her beliefs, then this site might be of some help to them. On the other hand, if you are a believer who has zero intention of ever questioning your beliefs, then good grief.... the word "EX-christian" should be an indicator that you don't want to be here.

...then maybe you should stop tricking us into landing on your site.

Try being consistant with the philosophy you've adopted. We haven't "tricked" you; "Satan" has!

Someone mentioned "do no harm", you all are doing harm.

Oh? Do-tell..... how is being too reasonable going to harm someone? Please explain - or if you don't intend to return, at least go over it in your head. If fact, compare being reasonable to legendary, superstitious thinking----that is, "thinking" that causes opposing religions to blow each other up; "thinking" that causes division among humanity; "thinking" that gives way to bigotry, racism, sexism, and elitism. 'Listening.

bdp · 8 months ago

Mister Douglas? As in Oliver Wendell, on Green Acres? Listen, my faith was DOA when I found this site, I just needed to know that I wasn't the only one, that I wasn't crazy - it's not a trap, but you just can't understand that if you still have the blinders on.

morningguy · 8 months ago

This sanctimonious boor thinks people here have personal problems? Who
has more of a problem? Someone who goes around talking to an
invisible supernatural being for whom there is no scientific proof, or someone
who lives their life based on reality and rationality?

I am glad he knows some psychiatrists. He's in desperate need of one.

glebealyth · 8 months ago

morningguy,

You are right.
I think the problem he has is that Mister Douglas knows these psychiatrists only socially. He should expand his horizons and get to know them professionally, also.

Steve · 7 months ago

I've come to believe that God is an asshole. I wish I could believe something else, but I don't. I think he's an arbitrary asshole who gets off watching his creations suffer. But he's got all the power, so what can you do?

AtheistToothFairy · 7 months ago

Steve: I've come to believe that God is an asshole

Your statement is only true if one assumes that the bible god were real.
Because this bible god is only a mythical creature, then we must say that the mythical god portrayed in the bible, is an asshole.

No Steve, he doesn't have any power, for to have power, a thing must exists first.

ATF

dusty · 7 months ago

I just have one question, and I am posting strictly for opinion, not trying to "bait" an argument. I have nothing to prove to anyone. Everyone has the right as a human to believe whatever they want. But out of curiosity, does it seem strange that we, as human beings, subconsciously have the need to seek something "higher", to justify our existence? Even in the most basic tribes in the most remote parts of the world, with no communication to "civilization" (if you can call it civilized without a gag reflex) there seems to be a focal point, be it one or many "gods". Just want to hear some feedback please.

AtheistToothFairy · 7 months ago

dusty: But out of curiosity, does it seem strange that we, as human beings, subconsciously have the need to seek something "higher", to justify our existence?

To borrow a quote from a member here, here's my answer......

"Yes, therefore the god of the bible surely exist"
/<insert sarcasm>

I suggest you do some research on the "god gene".

Try this link for starters:
http://www.scienceray.com/Philosophy-of-Science...

If you're suggesting that some god put this trait to seek him, inside our brains/DNA, and that is it's best evidence for it's own existence, then this is no better an argument than the "The fear of the dark" would be for the positive existence of invisible monsters, ghosts and demons.

ATF (Who needs far better evidence than emotions that came about during human evolution)

Dave8 · 7 months ago

Dusty: “Even in the most basic tribes in the most remote parts of the world, with no communication to "civilization" (if you can call it civilized without a gag reflex) there seems to be a focal point, be it one or many "gods".”

Dusty, a focal point, suggests a “common denominator” of sorts that deserves recognition above other common factors. I would suspect, the more “common” some element of history is, the “more important” and more “focal” that common element should be for reason of enlightenment.

Have you considered the fact, that “ignorance”, seems to be, and continues to be the “most prevalent” common element of recorded history?

As a result of “ignorance” as a “more apropos” common denominator, and “focal point”; it appears humanity has produced a substitute for ‘knowledge’/answers to questions of import - highly imaginative mystical elements/psychological concepts (god/s).

As ignorance decreases, the more polar religious institutions/traditions (a priori/hypothetical/faith/god) and secular institutions/traditions (a posteriori/empirical/reason/knowledge) typically become. There is a natural polarization/cultural drift between religious and secular categories…

Notwithstanding, the overlapping category (political overtone/tenor) shared between politico-religious dictatorships/institutions & politico-secular dictatorships/institutions… which happen to both harbor elitist leaders. In either case; such leaders demand unrelenting fealty and obedience to their rule… citing a number of sources for their “authoritative” right; god/s, genetic lineage, brute force, etc.

If one were to look more closely, they’d likely see that “brute force” has been more “common” throughout history than let’s say… the belief and acceptance of a personal god/s. Having someone beat the god drum, with terror/dominant influence is going to give a statistical false positive, or so I suspect.

The “reasons” or “causal elements” that inspire a person to hold a belief in a god/s must logically be “more common” as well (unless one were to “isolate” a particular causal element held “only” by believers), after all… there may be a billion people who are paranoid and only 1% are believers in a god/s… the paranoia factor is much more “common” and… statistically “interesting” than the “side-effect”.

oddbird1963 · 7 months ago

Dusty,

That is a great question that comes up on this site from time to time.

You raise the question, "does it seem strange that we as human beings, subconsciously have the need to seek something "higher", to justify our existence?"

That is true. We hear people talk about wanting more from life, wanting a reason to get out of bed in the morning, something higher and greater than what they are into now. Of couse the insinuation is that we are looking for a god to provide that higher something. Another insinuation is that a single hidden god put that desire there so we would find him.

But do we frame the question that way because religions are always around us whispering in our ear, so to speak? Don't we continuously get the message that we need god to make our lives higher and grander than they are?

Perhaps it is a circular dynamic. We feel bad and want something more, the church tells us we should feel bad and want more because that is how we should feel without god, so we decide we want god in our lives. Mayber there are other ways to fulfill the desire for something more, but religions, in their marketing campaigns, have interfered with that discovery process.

I believe I have heard the need to feel like we are connected to something higher explained from an evolutionary stand point. If we connect with our tribe, village, city state, etc. the members of that group tend to have a higher liklihood to pass their genes on into the next generation because of the survival benefits of mutual cooperation.

Therefore, those who tend to feel a high from being connected to a higher purpose will be more likely to cooperate with the tribe / village/ state, etc. Thus subsequent generations are born with the capacity to obtan a great sense of utility (purpose, meaning, significance) out of pursuing those things which make them feel connected. Religion can be an expression of that evolutionarily rewarded desire to feel connected and contribute to the survival of the group.


Why do so many socieities hold to belief in a god? I think transmission of learning and ideas lead to the development of the religions themselves. Common neurobiology and similar physical and emotional needs also explains how different societies can come up with similar expressions of religious notions.

Jared Diamond has a great video concerning the evolution of religion in human societies. You might want to check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th7CFye03gQ

dusty · 6 months ago

Thank you everyone for your responses. I live in a small town of 5,000 people...there are 37...yes...37 churches. It is good to have an intelligent debate without getting pelted by Bibles and assaulted with "fire and brimstone" comments. However, I believe in God. There are many things in my life that have happened that defy all logic, reason and science. I do not believe in "religion". Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical etc.., I have studied all of their doctrines and origins. To me, its like Coke, Diet Coke, Cherry Coke, Coke Zero..... I am not part of a "church". I believe and serve on my own time. I do not persecute those who do not share my belief, their life is not mine to manipulate. I really appreciate all of your input. I just wanted a fresh, intelligent conversation. Its refreshing. Do you guys ever feel like maybe, somehow, there is something more?

Rosetteismyname · 5 months ago

I was sexually assaulted by my own father and I typed in "why does god hate me" and this came up............

physical tortue versus emotional and mental anguish from trauma remain in two different spectrums and maintain a refusal to believe that one could compare one pain to the other or that one pain is worse than the other.

don't come to me with crap like god is testing you, because that is JUST CRAP!

God testing the faith of a 7 year old girl when she is 26!

AtheistToothFairy · 5 months ago

Rosetteismyname: don't come to me with crap like god is testing you, because that is JUST CRAP!

To whom are you speaking to?

No one here believes in the bible god, let alone that god tests us, but especially that any god would test a child in such a manner as you described.

ATF

dee4 · 4 months ago

Every side has good arguments (pro/con)...My two cents....God is real! But I dont understand everything He does and actually I disagree with most of the things I hear in church. I am a nurses aid so I have seen my share of dying patients. Most of them regret living a meaningless life and they are scared of dying, unless they have a belief in God and their families are around. Well, that's good enough for me. Everyone is entitled to their opinions...this one is mine!

boomSLANG · 4 months ago

dee4: Every side has good arguments (pro/con).....

Perhaps. But for the majority here, the "con's"(pun intended) of religious belief - namely, those held on "faith" - far, far out-weight the "pro's".

dee4: God is real!

And which "God" would that be? You mean, Poseidon? Saturn? Allah? Toth? If belief in a deity is held on "faith", then how do we know for certain which deity is the real one, and the others, the false ones?

dee4: But I dont understand everything He does...

If your particular deity has unlimited free will at its disposal, but yet, stands idly by and does absolutely nothing as children get raped, beaten, and abused in other horrific ways, are you implying that there actually might exist a "good" reason for this that we are unaware of?...a "reason" that we just don't "understand"?

dee4: I have seen my share of dying patients. Most of them regret living a meaningless life and they are scared of dying, unless they have a belief in God and their families are around.

I don't think anyone here will deny that belief in "God" buffers the fear of death for many people. However, that says not one thing as to whether the dying will actually see a post-mortem existence. As for "living a meaningless life", are you suggesting that doing so is inevitable without belief in "God"? 'Goodness gracious, I hope not.

sconnor · 4 months ago

d4

My two cents....God is real!

Two cents? -- Your extraordinary claim wasn't even worth the energy you used to type it.

Got any objective evidence for the existence of your imaginary god? -- outside the confines of your limited mind?

--S.

AtheistToothFairy · 4 months ago

Dee4,
Please tell me what 'good arguments' the god side has, as I have yet to see any?

ATF

MagLight · 4 months ago

What amazes me most in life is how judgmental and generally AWFUL most so-called "Christians" behave. Just look at the responses on here to this nurse being honest and concerned about something she cannot answer. They belittle her beliefs; they tell her to stay the hell away from them; they cuss her out. And this is the behavior of a Christian??? Sadly, it's rather typical of the behavior or people who claim to be Christian. Most so-called "Christians" don't READ or BEHAVE consistently with what Jesus taught in the New Testament. It quite clearly says NOT TO JUDGE OTHERS unless you want to be judged by your own (poor) standards of judgment. But you see it EVERY DAY. Most religious people (the religion usually doesn't matter) are so entrenched that THEIR beliefs are correct that they don't even CONSIDER anyone else's point-of-view. And that is the danger of religion. You closed your mind and you close your eyes and you start to justify any EVIL thing you can think of as necessary to preserve that religion, which then turns into "God's Will" in their mind when it is in fact their will and their actions and their very human judgment. God isn't responsible for the Inquisition and its murdering and torturing, but mankind. Man IS religion. God doesn't interfere with free will in most religions and so whether you believe in Him or not is irrelevant in that regard. God doesn't force anyone to do anything. He certainly isn't concerned about people's health or He wouldn't let all this suffering go on here.

If anything, it provides an atmosphere where you have to contend with YOUR beliefs and actions. People want to blame someone else for everything that happens instead of taking responsibility for their own. And sometimes you have to admit you simply cannot control what happens to you (particularly if some crazy nut job is trying to kill you for not believing what he believes, which happens a lot with religious zealots). Admitting you "don't know" is the first step to recovery from any sort of self-imposed religious zealotry. What is so wrong about admitting you don't know God's will and you're not willing to push your beliefs on others? It's obvious, though. People are self-centered and honestly believe on a base level that everyone should agree with them, think like them and be like them. People turn themselves into a demi-god and assume they know God and then assume they should enforce God's Will on Earth all on their own. This is what leads to things like the Inquisition (torture and murder) all in the name of a God they don't know. I could point out all day long the hypocrisy of people in regards to what their own religions say, but people pick and choose what they want to see or believe and IGNORE the rest. Well, that's the same as just making things up. They're picking and choosing the things they AGREE with and ignoring the things they disagree with. Then they PUSH that part they agree with on others. They ALL ignore the part about not judging others. The ones killing others in the name of God ignored the part about not murdering. And they all justify their actions with something taken out of context and tell themselves it's God's Will and that's PURE BULLCRAP. It's their will and IF there is a God, they will have to answer for it.

But question being dealt with here is WHY and the question is loaded. "WHY does God hate me?" Well, who said God hates you? Did he tell you that? No? You just assumed it because something you consider 'bad' is happening to you? Well, I got news for everyone. You're *ALL* going to die. It's only a question of how and when and those aren't' really knowable either so there's no point in asking those questions. It's kind of ironic, though that the people MOST worried about death seem to be the very ones that CLAIM there's something better AFTER death. If they really and truly believed that, would they be so worried about dying? Think about it. No, the truth is they have doubts about what they believe and instead of admitting that (which might lead them to Hell or something according to crazy fundamentalists), they'd rather lie to themselves and say "Well, I believe, so it must be something else...hmmmm...maybe God hates me!" Well, if he hates you, then you're going to Hell anyway! Oops. There goes that logic. And if you believe he Hates you, why would you want to be around Him anyway? I don't want to be around someone that hates me. Why do you? Wait, we're being WAY too logical here. Could it be simply that you don't like what's happening, are powerless to do anything about it and that makes you feel small and unimportant and you fear the unknown. That's perfectly human, but we all have to face it sooner or later as we're all going to die. If there's nothing, well, you don't really exist anyway so there's nothing to worry about. If there's something, there's not much you can do about it if an angry God wants to torture you in Hell. Frankly, if "God" is so cruel to torture people who didn't know Him (and how could they, really when He doesn't interact?) then you're trying to please a tyrant. But if God isn't a tyrant, then God probably loves you (or at worst has no interest) and then you have nothing to worry about because in the end he's looking after your own best interests.

That's all way too logical for people that are not thinking straight (i.e. overcome with self-pity, sadness, etc.) so it probably wouldn't comfort anyone. And there's the real answer to this situation. The person doesn't really WANT to know why God hates them. They simply want someone to tel them it's going to be OK. Things are going to be alright. Well, sometimes things are not going to be alright, at least here on this plane of existence. But that doesn't mean it will be the end. All these people really want is someone to comfort them and so the 'best' course of action is to give love and comfort. That's not easy if they're being irrational, though. All people will have to deal with their earthly mortality sooner or later and it's not an easy thing to realize your life here as it is now is over. People have trouble letting go kids going off to live their own lives; how much more difficult is it to let go of EVERYTHING you know here. Because in the end you don't know (or at least remember) what came before and you don't know what's going to come. And THAT is the real problem. People want answers and unfortunately, there aren't always answers to be found. Certainly, judgmental "believers" telling you that they're so sorry that you're going to Hell for not believing what they believe doesn't help anyone, least of all themselves if they are going to be held accountable for the damage they do to others by saying such things.

stephen75 · 3 months ago

There is a thing called the sovereignty of God. In short that means God will do what he wants.



Most christians can't handle this about god especially when it comes to unimaginable pain. They always feel like they have to have an answer. I am a christian and i have weathered a lot. I will say there is no answer. When God answered Job after all of his calamity , He basically told him that he is a mere human and his mind cant ever be able to understand God's ways.



Now, where does that put you? I am coming forward as an honest Christian telling you that no matter how much you pray and have faith you might still die of a terrible sickness or be stuck in great misery your entire life. How do you feel about that? The simple answer for most is i can't serve a God like that.

I say if there is a God and we are his creation then doesn't he have complete control over us? Forget what you have heard about free will because those christian theories are also horribly flawed.

The bottom line is this, the sun comes up and goes down everyday sustaining life because God said it, your heart beating in your chest giving you life keeps beating cause God said it. We have no choice. This is God's world. You are God's property. Don't ever think you own yourself because you don't.



Hard to accept? of course it is. Especially for our self entitled western society. But how far has that mentality got us. I will say it has brought us more pain and anguish.



So where is the peace?

In finally realizing who we are as a created being. That only comes to us after submission. Job learned this and I believe there in lies the answer to the complex questions of pain in this life.



I'm still in this cumbersome process..
Blessings
-stephen

juan_marco · 3 months ago

Stephen75: I am coming forward as an honest Christian telling you that no matter how much you pray and have faith you might still die of a terrible sickness or be stuck in great misery your entire life. How do you feel about that?

If the Bible is true, then why wouldn't a Christian simply find another like minded believer to pray with for healing? The Bible says that you will have what you ask for.

You pray for healing and get it, it is because god is so great and wonderful.

You pray for healing and don't get it, it is because god is so great and not understandable.

If that kind of absurdity is what you need to believe, have at it. Personally, I think it is nothing more than you kidding yourself, submission and all.

XPDan · 3 months ago

You are not an honest christian, you are just a fatalist. Nothing new there. Now, just quit calling it god and you'll be on your way to truth.

Good luck in your misery.

XPD

stephen75 · 3 months ago

im glad you guys felt inclined to respond..

Let me tell you something, being a "christian" i mean a real "christian" is a shitty life. that is the bottom line, and im sorry that the church has misled all of us with the phony brochure of "come to jesus and everything is going to be ok"

Its a war.. So if you came to God and felt "let down" well guess what? so did i. What choice do you really have?

Be your own God? right.

I am truly sorry for all of us that have been taught incorrectly, however that does not change what is.

Also as far as "two or more" gathered to pray. Well have you ever heard of a paradox? That is two seemingly opposites that fit together to form one evident truth.

The Bible is a paradox. Life is a paradox.

Im not going to try to explain this to you, cause i don't fully understand it.

But i know that as much as healing and blessing and prosperity is talked about so is longsuffering, turmoil and travail.

Dont pick and choose what you want and what you dont want. That is the gospel.

Love you all.

Believe me this path is not fun.

P.s. The whole reason i even found this forum is because i typed in God Hates me into google. Cause that is how i feel more often than not.

juan_marco · 3 months ago

stephen75:"Let me tell you something, being a "christian" i mean a real "christian" is a shitty life."

I agree with you here. I remember vividly how shitty it was. Hope you can someday see your christianity in the proverbial rear-view mirror. You don't realize how shitty it truly is until then.

stephen75:"The Bible is a paradox. Life is a paradox."

If by paradox you mean self-contradictory then, yes the bible is a paradox, or at the very least full of them. As far as life being a paradox, I'm not sure I agree.

By paradox, are you trying to say "a mystery we will never understand"?
If so, then the bible is definitely not a paradox. It is easy to understand. It is a collection of documents written by humans. Period.
You can take my word for it, or start studying it with a critical eye.

stephen75:"Be your own God? right. "

Stop and think about your statement...Be your own god. What does that mean?

Get a pad and pen, and start writing down what exactly a god is. Not your God, but just gods in general. What do they do? What is their purpose?

Do they hurl bolts of fire around the heavens? Do they create universes and underworlds? Do they love? Do they hate? Do they live in the sky? Do they give life, or cause ill to befall humans? Do they occasionally devour the sun?

Do they require blood offerings? Virgins into volcanoes? Human sacrifices?

Here is a secret for you. You are more powerful than any god in history. You are human. You can create a god. You can give him a heavenly family, with demigod children, and even an evil arch-enemy god to blame his shortcomings on. Your imagination is the key.

If that's too much work for you, you can enslave yourself to any one of the other gods men have dreamed up, but it is a lesser existence, and fraught with peril to boot.

stephen75:"Believe me this path is not fun.
P.s. The whole reason i even found this forum is because i typed in God Hates me into google. Cause that is how i feel more often than not."

I have been there friend. I know that is not a good feeling. But there is good news.

God does not hate you.

If you ever realize that, and fully understand why he does not hate you, then you will see that the hope of "God loving you" is far too costly, in terms of both sanity and emotional distress.

stephen75:"Love you all."

In closing I ask you to ponder this; Where did you get the idea that telling complete strangers you love them is appropriate? Who fed you that nonsense?

You know you don't mean it, I know you don't mean it, and if the one true Medicinian God, Juan Lorenzo de Marco heard you, He would smite you for such pathetic hypocritical bleatings. He sees through your faux displays of affection, and has been known to rain fire from the heavens. Beware, mortal.

Astreja · 3 months ago

Stephen75: "Its a war."

When one sees everything as a war, life will appear to be one battle after another. I cannot emphasize this enough: Your perceptions and preconceptions can have a profound effect on how you deal with day-to-day life.

"Be your own God? right."

Works for Me. :-D (For the record, My magisteria are the northern vernal equinox, chocolate, punctuation, and random equipment malfunctions.)

"I am truly sorry for all of us that have been taught incorrectly, however that does not change what is."

Do you have any actual evidence regarding "what is"?

"P.s. The whole reason i even found this forum is because i typed in God Hates me into google. Cause that is how i feel more often than not."

I can't speak to the future of your beliefs, Stephen, but just keep trying to do the right thing and make the world a better place. The only part of the Bible that ever made sense to Me was Matthew 25:35-40.

sconnor · 3 months ago

stephen75

The bottom line is this, the sun comes up and goes down everyday sustaining life because God said it, your heart beating in your chest giving you life keeps beating cause God said it. We have no choice. This is God's world. You are God's property. Don't ever think you own yourself because you don't.

Hard to accept?

Well yes; certainly -- but ONLY because you're a deluded whack-job, who does NOT know the will or character of god -- outside your deluded imagination.

I'll tell you what stephen75 , if your god-concept exists, then he knows, exactly, where to find me -- he can tell me, exactly, and concisely, everything he needs me to know, himself -- this way, I can be absolutely certain, what god wants from me, and I don't have to rely on some fallible, deluded, crazy-ass christian asshole, that makes extraordinary, interpretive claims, he can't substantiate -- M-kay?

--S.

stephen75 · 3 months ago

Wow guys i can't believe how much anger and disdain you all have towards my point of view. And here i thought christians were closed minded. Hmm

Anyway i do love you all as much as any stranger can love another who has a common interest, that is why we are all on here. isn't it?

Im not here to debate why you guys should believe. That is not what this nurse wrote about. I was addressing the conundrum of pain and suffering from a biblical approach.

But everyone is so angry and loathsome toward a christian point of view that your not even willing to hear any truth, even if it is presented.

Do you realize that your acting exactly how you hate?

Judgemental. Closeminded. Dogmatic.

Again im sorry for all of our experiances with these types of christians, however im certainly not one. Nor do i think that anything i said had malicious intent on this forum.

I guess this is a place where a bunch of bitter and angry people like to take comfort in each others endless dogma, I thought it might have been a more open minded forum for discusion.

My mistake.

Have a Nice Day.

If it makes you feel better....you win. Ya! we can all rest easy.

Thackerie · 3 months ago

Wow! If you think that people are being angry and hateful just because they don't agree with your personal opinion, I can see how you think life is miserable and that "god" hates you. Unfortunately, I can't help you, other than advising you to get real help from a qualified, secular therapist.

glebealyth · 3 months ago

But everyone is so angry and loathsome toward a christian point of view that your not even willing to hear any truth, even if it is presented.

Stephen, please present some truth.

I, and probably everyone else here, am on tenterhooks, awaiting the truth and the accompanying evidence that you feel able, yet seemingly so unwilling to present.

The approach to revelation that you are taking is so similar to that used by evangelists:

1. make promises about how good it will be when you hear and accept the truth;
2. promise to provide proof of the truth on which your happiness depends;
3. repeat 1., often and noisily, occasionally interjecting 2.;
4. issue altar call, either for prayer or money;
5. be arrested for tax evasion.

Please Stephen, don't mess us around with the preliminaries. We have seen and heard them all so often that you really should not be surprised at our scepticism and cynicism towards you.

Our intolerance is directed at the repetitive preliminaries and we do, truthfully and eagerly await the truth(s) you promise.

Over to you my friend.

I wish you love and peace,

David

juan_marco · 3 months ago

Was it something we said?

sconnor · 3 months ago

stephen75

Anyway i do love you all as much as any stranger can love another...

Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.

Im not here to debate why you guys should believe.

Of course not -- you don't have a leg to stand on.

That is not what this nurse wrote about. I was addressing the conundrum of pain and suffering from a biblical approach.

Whoop-D-frickin-doo. We could care less what your mythical explanations for pain and suffering are -- they have NO reference in reality.

But everyone is so angry and loathsome toward a christian point of view that your not even willing to hear any truth, even if it is presented.

All you have is a deluded interpretation from a book that you claim is truth. Again you do NOT know god's will or character and you have NO objective evidence to substantiate ANY of your absurd claims.

Again im sorry for all of our experiances with these types of christians, however im certainly not one. Nor do i think that anything i said had malicious intent on this forum.

Maybe not -- but you are still a deluded christians in a long line of deluded christians who vomit up their particular "true" interpretation of scripture. We've heard it all.

We have already done the research (real scholarly research) and we have found NO objective evidence for the historicity of your Jesus of the bible character. We have concluded that there is absolutely NO credible objective evidence for Jesus being the resurrected son of god, savior of mankind and instead is a piece of fiction based on perhaps a fallible human prophet an/or an amalgamation of several people and several earlier legends and myths.

We've, also, concluded, the bible is a spurious, collection of separate, ancient stories, written by differing men, using the -- supposed, voice of god -- so as to give it a bogus sense of credibility, and authority where there was none to begin with, which came together, slowly, over time, that dealt with how a primitive superstitious people understood, what god meant to them, during their own specific, time period and their own specific culture. Anything after that is interpretation, speculation or delusional gullibility, which gets us the perverted ideas, beliefs and agendas of so many christian religions. Your god is nothing but a human construct -- a figment of your imagination, a definition, based on your myopic, interpretation of scripture and flights of fancy.

It's inconceivable for a deluded christian drone -- like yourself -- to accept that other christians, that were, even bible quoting, god fearing, holy spirit filled, born-again, Jesus freaks, who had a "relationship" with Jesus didn't become apostates because of the "experiences" they had with "those types of christians" but instead they actually took the time to honestly research the christian faith and comparative religions, who through critical thinking and the voice of reason, dug themselves out of the pit of morbid ignorance and the sludgy swamp of christianity and slowly concluded there was NO objective evidence for a personal christian god and christianity is bullshit.

Wow guys i can't believe how much anger and disdain you all have towards my point of view....I guess this is a place where a bunch of bitter and angry people like...But everyone is so angry and loathsome toward a christian point of view...

My mistake.

Oh yes -- you're mistaken, but not for the reason you suggest.

I can assure you I am NOT angry -- I'm perfectly content. You confuse my bluntness with anger.

Again, you are only one of the myriad of asshole christians who stumble upon this site spouting unsubstantiated bullshit that has NO reference in reality.

I'm not angry with you and I don't hate you. The reality of the situation -- stephen75 -- is I have absolutely NO respect for you. You vomit up bullshit claims you can't possibly substantiate. You are a deluded ignoramus that has nothing to offer us but silly superstitions and morbid ignorance.

If it makes you feel better....you win.

Yeah -- don't let the proverbial door hit you on the ass on the way out.

--S.

stephen75 · 3 months ago

ok i was going to leave but scooner..

Well you make me smile.

First you have no idea why i believe in the God of the Bible. You dont know what in my life has led me to my beliefs, you are ASS uming that i just ignorantly take what has been spoon fed me in my "ignoramus" state.

On the contrary, my belief in God and servitude comes strictly from empirical evidence, something you will never be able to refute. Im not going to even bother explaining myself..

Bottom line is, if there is no God, then this life is truly meaningless, And yes i am an existentialist.

So why are you or any of us alive. It is all absurdity and meaningless.

That understaning drives me further into my belief in God.

Or you can take the road of Neitzsche and lose your mind.

Good Luck and God Bless.

webmdave · 3 months ago

"On the contrary, my belief in God and servitude comes strictly from empirical evidence, something you will never be able to refute. Im not going to even bother explaining myself.."

If your evidence is "empirical," then please share it here so we can all test it for ourselves. Thanks.

As to your lack-of-meaning-for-your-life philosophy:

"The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality." -- George Bernard Shaw

Besides, how is life made more meaningful from belief in an angry god who created human beings and then set up a system so that untold billions of them who simply do not believe in "it" would roast in horrific torment throughout all eternity, without a chance of reformation or parole?

Mythology is for kids, silly wabbit.

cipher · 3 months ago

Stephen, if you feel that God hates you, yet you cling to the belief system, you're in need of psychological counseling. Please consider it.

sconnor · 3 months ago

stephen75

Well you make me smile.

Well of course -- your dazed happy face is obviously, a result of you coming to the reralization that you were wrong about us being angry and the realization you do NOT have ANY objective evidence to substantiate your absurd claims outside of bloated rationalizations.

On the contrary, my belief in God and servitude comes strictly from empirical evidence, something you will never be able to refute. Im not going to even bother explaining myself..

Bawhahahahahahaha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Empirical evidence?

Notice how stephen75 employs the infantile kindergarten defense: I know but I'm not gonna tell you -- nanny nanny boo boo.

--S.

boomSLANG · 3 months ago

Sconnor: Notice how stephen75 employs the infantile kindergarten defense: I know but I'm not gonna tell you -- nanny nanny boo boo.

Ah, yes, the good ol' playground days....neener, neerer, neener!!!!!

And isn't interesting that our lastest True Christian™ chew toy would choose to sit on this supposed "evidence", when, if Christianity's Truth-claims could be proven, absolutely, then he would not only be eligible for a Nobel Prize, but more importantly, he could END all wars fought in the name of religion! Think about it..... Muslims could once and for all be proven WRONG.

I therefore conclude that the person who has such power but chooses to do nothing, either, a) is a obstinate, selfish, self-righteous a$$hole, b) has no such "evidence" at all, or possibly, c) both "a" and "b".

Take your pick.

True Christian™ insists......Bottom line is, if there is no God, then this life is truly meaningless..

We hear this apologetic a lot, but I've yet to see any Theist give a satisfactory explanation of how belief in invisible, conscious beings gives life "meaning".

First of all, "meaning" is subjective. Duh?

Second of all, if mere existence is unappealing, then I fail to see what benefit there is in a perpetual existence.

'Any Theist wanna give it shot?

True Christian™ continues....So why are you or any of us alive

What an utterly idiotic question.

Here, let me take a wild guess-----you and I are "alive" because our biological mothers and fathers decided to have sexual intercourse. And while you and I might not be "planned", it is by no f%cking "accident" that we're here---your mommy didn't trip and fall on your dad's penis, which just *happened* to be errect at the time.

continues....Or you can take the road of Neitzsche and lose your mind.

Just an aside--Nihilism and Atheism are NOT mutually inclusive.

As far as "losing" one's "mind"---I'd offer that adhering to any philosophy that gives you a "shitty life"(your description) is most definitely a precursor to becoming insane. Perhaps instead of groveling on your knees while believing that your entire existence revolves around the needs and desires of some invisible sky-genie, maybe you should actually examine what you believe and why you believe it.

As far as us being "dogmatic", which "dogma" are you refering to? If I were offered the same evidence that "The Twelve" and as many as 500 people were allegedly offered in "the Bible"---that is, if I were treated to a physical appearance by biblegod---then I would happily change my mind. I changed my mind once, I can, and will, do it again.

*Please note, however, that while I would concede said deity's existence if it appeared and worked some "miracles", I would NOT accept its "Plan" nor its biblical policies on "morality". F%ck that.

And BTW, hotshot....I couldn't give a rusty f%ck less if you think I'm "angry". Even if all Atheists were the most angry, vile, disgusting people on the planet, that would not make Christianity "True".

Have a wonderful day!

stephen75 · 3 months ago

Do you all really trust your intellects? I am not making an excuse for stupidity. I am just saying IF there is a God, do you think that you will ever be able to figure him/her/it out?

Ok that being said what are we all left with? Faith.

You all have faith in something. It Might not be God or christianity. But you have faith. Thats life. Faith in science, faith in intellectualism... Every time you get in your car and drive on the freeway you have some sort of faith that your tires are going to hold up and not blow out and bring you to demise. The list goes on and on how we use faith everyday.

My question is why do you deem it requisite to bash me because I have faith in a God that I can't see? Are you that insecure in your Athiesm that you feel compelled to rattle off a litany of pseudo-intellectual insults in an attempt to burn the witch, or in this case burn the christian.

I have already made it clear that being a christian is not an easy or happier way to live your life. In some cases especially mine, it has been miserably toilsome. I obviously came to the wrong place to discuss the complexity of being a believer who struggles with the unanswerables of my faith.

Ok, that was my final installment, I've had enough of this banal exchange.

Blessings.

sconnor · 3 months ago

stephen75

Do you all really trust your intellects?

I'll tell you what -- we'll do a little experiment. We'll cross a busy eight lane highway -- You'll use FAITH (with a blindfold and earplugs) to cross the highway and I'll use my intellect and we'll see who can get across the fastest -- M'Kay?

I am just saying IF there is a God, do you think that you will ever be able to figure him/her/it out?

No. I've concluded our understanding or definition of god would be wholly inferior. A god (an ultimate reality) shouldn't have all the faults of humanity; IT should be far above us at least in equaling the magnitude of the universe. IF there is a god -- IT would have to transcend all thought; IT would have to be something that we can't even begin to imagine, let alone giving IT inept human attributes. Which is why I humbly submit I do NOT know god; god is unknowable and christians sure as shit don't know god either!

You all have faith in something.

You are misconstruing FAITH with TRUST

Boomslang more than adequately described the difference between faith and trust -- but did it penetrate your dome? Did you really comprehend it?

To elaborate:

Can you see the difference?

TRUST is (confidence based on reliance) and FAITH is (believing in something that has no evidence).

You believe in an invisible omni-present deity because of FAITH. Faith meaning -- believing in something that doesn't have objective evidence or is contrary to the supposed evidences (although you say you have evidence -- you simply settle for the flimsiest of supposed evidences and offer up a plethora of subjective evidences)

I contend faith is an unreliable method of acquiring and processing information.

Faith is a brain malfunction, where you abandon ALL critical thinking skills and the voice of reason, where you willingly, choose to ignore and bury logic, steeping yourself in ignorance, so you can believe, in the unbelievable.

What's more -- to bolster my assertion -- FAITH is a deplorable method of obtaining and processing information; consider the devout Muslim: they too make extraordinary claims about Allah and how he works in their lives and that he gave us, his final revelation of divine guidance and direction for mankind in the form of the qur'an.

Funny how that whole FAITH thing works out. It allows people to believe in a whole host of absurd ideas.

The same people who have faith in something they can't see, use the same unreliable method of obtaining and processing information. It is with this magical thinking, that they use to push many perverted agendas...

It's the same magical thinking (unreliable method of obtaining and processing information) that made it possible to burn witches at the stake.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible to torture non-believers during the inquisition.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible to kill non-christians during the crusades.

It's the same magical thinking that led to a massive cover-up and continued to let priest rape children in the Catholic faith, over and over. (Father So and So couldn't have raped little Johnny, he's a man of god).

It's the same magical thinking that let's the catholic church preach abstinence and the sins of condom use, allowing millions to die.

It's the same magical thinking that makes it possible for JWs to withhold blood transfusions, allowing their children to suffer and die.

It's the same magical thinking that allows polygamy to flourish, where women are held captive and children are raped and abused.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible for parents of an eleven year old girl to die, because they only prayed over her, neglecting medical intervention.

It's the same magical thinking that makes it possible to relegate women to a subservient role to their husbands.

It's the same magical thinking that makes it impossible for women to become pastors or priests in certain sects like evangelicals, Baptists, and Catholics.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible for Jews to mutilate their baby boys penises.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible to justify slavery in America.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible to justify not allowing interracial marriages.

It's the same magical thinking that made it possible for sick, christians to blow up abortion clinics.

It's the same magical thinking that allowed terrorists to fly planes into buildings.

It's the same magical thinking that preaches creationism over evolution, breeding ignorance, in our schools.

It's the same magical thinking that calls gay people an abomination.

It's the same magical thinking that discriminates against a gay couple having the same rights as everyone.

It's the same magical thinking that caused a 30 year old bloodbath in Northern Ireland, Catholics vrs. Protestants.

It's the same magical thinking that allows cults to brainwash their followers.

Faith is nothing more than suspending your disbelief, ON PURPOSE, so as to make it fit in your warped, fantasy-filled world-view. You deliberately choose to forgo the reasoning powers your mind possesses and feebly fill in the blanks with subjective flim-flam and bloated, stretched-thin rationalizations, all the while NEVER providing objective evidence for your god-concept. You would have us believe that FAITH is a virtue but it is not. It is not supernatural; it is not spiritual -- it is a CHOICE. A choice steeped in massive delusion -- a construct of your own making, where you believe you have the one and only truth. You CHOOSE to waive your intellectual faculties and throw reasoning out the door, while convincing yourself by pretending that your irrational and insane interpretive claims are perfectly valid.

Faith is bullshit.

Comprende?

--S.

BTW -- you're still keeping that objective empirical evidence to yourself - huh? I wonder why? Hmmmmmmmm? Bullshitter.

boomSLANG · 3 months ago

Do you all really trust your intellects?

Yes, at least, more so than my "gut instinct", lucky horseshoe, and horoscope.

I am just saying IF there is a God, do you think that you will ever be able to figure him/her/it out?

No, because "figuring out" a meta-physical(literally, beyond physical) being would require you to *BE* a metaphysical being. And this underscores the point that no human being can interact with metaphysical beings, aka "God", and this would include the redactors of the Christian handbook, which is supposedly, "God-breathed". Bullsh*t, it is.

Ok that being said what are we all left with? Faith.

That's odd, I thought you were the one with "empircal evidence"???

In any event, accepting an idea on "faith" means that there is literally an infinite list of propositions open to being accepted on "faith". In other words, it is contradictory to hold one belief on "faith", while using logic and reason to reject another's belief on "faith". This is why "faith", in a religious context, is dangerous. Christians, Muslims, and Jews have been duking it out for centuries, and soon, they'll liking be NUKING it out, because none of them can prove their "faith", or disprove their opponent's "faith".

You all have faith in something. It Might not be God or christianity. But you have faith. Thats life. Faith in science, faith in intellectualism

In true apologetic form, you are attempting to equate "faith" with trust....'two entirely different things.

I *trust* ideas upheld by science because of a *proven* track-record. Therefore, I am not being irrational/unreasonable when/if I do so. I *trust* my brakes will stop my car. I trust that if my brakes for some reason do not stop my car, that there is a logical explanation, as opposed to holding gremlins or curses responsible. Moreover, if I had "faith" that my brakes stop my car, I'd think about it each and every time I hit the brake, which, I do not. Addtionally, I'd think about my brakes, even when I'm not driving.

In other words, "Faith" requires continual mantenance of the mind. "Trust" does not.

My question is why do you deem it requisite to bash me because I have faith in a God that I can't see?

Because you cannot(will not) keep your "faith" to yourself. Because you are on an EX-christian website assuming that we don't know what having "faith" is all about. Because "faith", in a religious context, makes the world we live in a more dangerous place than it has to be. That's just a few of the reasons.

We lost in faith in faith. Get over it.

Are you that insecure in your Athiesm that you feel compelled to rattle off a litany of pseudo-intellectual insults in an attempt to burn the witch, or in this case burn the christian

If our arguments were "pseudo-intellectual", you'd think they'd be easy to refute, yes?.....yet, to my knowledge, you haven't refuted a single one of them.

I obviously came to the wrong place to discuss the complexity of being a believer who struggles with the unanswerables of my faith.

No, you came to the wrong place if you want to be told what you want to hear--and evidentally, you want to be told to "keep the faith". It seems that you have already decided that your questions are "unanswerable".

So, with that said....keep the faith(somewhere else)

juan_marco · 3 months ago

The things that you attribute to our "faith" are all things backed up by evidence.

Your god is not just invisible, there is also NO evidence for him. You are attempting to pull your faith up from the abyss of absurdity by claiming it is equal to driving a car, or understanding science, or using one's intellect. You are the only one who is convinced. That shit don't fly.

stephen75: I obviously came to the wrong place to discuss the complexity of being a believer who struggles with the unanswerables of my faith.

Yeah, no shit Sherlock. Did you really think that was the purpose of this blog? Right, play dumb.

Goodbye again.

P.s. How many more times are you planning on leaving?

sconnor · 3 months ago

stephen75

Ok, that was my final installment, I've had enough of this banal exchange

Another deluded christian asshole who has to resort to covering his eyes by building an impenetrable bunker of bibles and pretending that our logical and germane arguments were just banal inanity, just so he could protect his feeble beliefs - secure in an illusion of comfort and a delusion of truth.

--S.

glebealyth · 3 months ago

IF there is a god & IF he/she/it made me & IF he/she/it loves me

THEN he/she/it will, knowing that I am a sceptical being - his/her/its creation, make this fact known unequivocally so that I might be assured of his/her/its love and escape the eternal punishment he/she/it has created for me to enjoy otherwise.

I await the unequivocal proof of his/her/its creativity and love.

Bronze age collections of myth and fraudulent Constantinian 'holy writ' do not constitute unequivocal proof of anything except, perhaps, the folly and gullibility of mankind.

XPDan · 3 months ago

stephen75 -

You have mixed up your words. We do NOT have faith. Faith is a made up word describing a made up religious, subjective experience. Faith is NOT hope, faith is NOT trust.....faith is bullsh*t!!!!

Please read 'The End of Faith' by Sam Harris and get some mental help.

By the way, I was a miserable christian for over 40 years. The happiest and most fulfilled years of my life have come after I came to Truth and Atheism. If you wish to wallow in your self-induced, miserable struggle, be my guest, just go away and stop coming here with your verbal vomit.

You are a deluded hypocrite who thinks he has 'hit' on some new truth...Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!! You have hit on a truth, but it's not new, we have known it for a long time....."life in christianity and theism is a sh*tty, miserable strugle."

You like to quote Job, so here's one for YOU...."curse god and die!" or praise god and die.........Just DIE

Fu(king Loon


XPD (Ex-Pastor Dan)

tjd5000 · 3 months ago

I am not a moral person that is inherntly more moral than atheists because I believe in God, however, I can know that there are a few prayers that have been genuinely answered in my life, and the fact that God does not really HATE you is one of them. God has not said that he hated me and said the opposite, now how this fits with the bible and modern christianity I do not understand since you would conclude that God might hate everyoone, however, since I it is a personal experience of having prayers answered, it is wrong to say that God hates you and it would be intellectually dishonest for me to believe it. The same way it would be intellectually dishnoest for you to belive something you knew was totally false that you didn't choose because of personal experience it would be dishonest for me to say God hates you because I know better. I don't get it all. I DON'T understand God. He said he does not hate me despite me faults and i would be wrong to say otherwise and God does not hate you...

Patricia Murray · 3 months ago

tjd5000,
How can you personally be sure that god does not hate? has god informed you of this? or is the a conclusion you have come up with yourself? since most christians like to say god works in mysterious ways, no one ever truly knows anything.
So saying that would be a guess and not a fact. You can guess and speculate all you like, but you can never tell anyone with 100% certainty.
Maybe if god does exist, god does hate humanity, since we are so imperfect and not living up to gods expectations that god had to create a hell to punish us sinners with. Why would somebody claim god loves everyone yet create hell to send people to? sorry but if you were a parent would you want to do that to your child, if you claim infinite omnipotent love that is beyond human comprehension? To me your statement does not add up.

XPDan · 3 months ago

tjd5000, where are you? I'm still waiting. Please come back! Please, my brother needs you!

What, were you just teasing us, or worse, lying?

Still waiting.......................................

XPD

XPDan · 3 months ago

tjd5000 -

Thank goodness, someone who has genuinely had prayers answered!!!!! Please, please, please go to Southern California and pray for my brother. He is in a wheel chair. His spinal chord is severed. He is a man of God and an ordained minister of the Gospel. He is worthy of a healing. He has been to see Benny Hinn and LeRoy Jenkins (no miracle). His church prays for him every day (no miracle so far...20 years and counting).

He needs YOU! The hospitals need YOU. The world needs YOU! MY, MY, MY...someone who has 'genuinely' had answered prayers.....WOW!

Please tell us about these answered prayers, maybe you can restore my faith. I prayed thousands of prayers for over 40 years as a christian (a minster for most of those) and NEVER HAD EVEN ONE 'genuinely' answered.

Please don't come back with "God answers prayer in 3 ways, yes, no and wait". That is apologetic, nonsense. My bible told me to "ask ANYTHING in my name and I WILL do it!" It never worked for me. Fasting, praying, praising, pleading.....nothing worked.

Please help us. If we could see just ONE REAL answered prayer, we would come back to Christ.

We are lined up and waiting. Please let me know when you are ready to go to my brother's house, I will buy your plane ticket and meet you there with the Los Angeles News cameras!

Wow! Thanks sooooo much. This is going to be great!!!! (:D You are the BEST. OH, thank God for tjd5000.

Waiting,

XPD (Ex-Pastor Dan)

sconnor · 3 months ago

tjd5000

I am not a moral person that is inherntly more moral than atheists because I believe in God, however, I can know that there are a few prayers that have been genuinely answered in my life,

Bullshit -- You have NO way of knowing god did anything to intervene on your behalf as opposed to mere coincidence.

...and the fact that God does not really HATE you is one of them. God has not said that he hated me and said the opposite, now how this fits with the bible and modern christianity I do not understand since you would conclude that God might hate everyoone,

No -- we have concluded there is NO objective evidence for god's existence.

I humbly submit I do NOT know god; If god exists then god is unknowable and you sure as shit don't know god either!

You do NOT know god's will or character.

You don't have any special information that we don't already possess.

You simply attributed your own deluded thoughts and stunted imagination to an imaginary deity.

however, since I it is a personal experience of having prayers answered, it is wrong to say that God hates you and it would be intellectually dishonest for me to believe it.

Sorry -- personal testimony is inadmissible. We get deluded christians clamoring on; making one crazy assertion after another -- ALL claiming personal experience. But you know what else you got in common with these other insane christians -- you both can NOT substantiate your implausible god claims.

The same way it would be intellectually dishnoest for you to belive something you knew was totally false that you didn't choose because of personal experience it would be dishonest for me to say God hates you because I know better.

Again you do NOT know god's will or character.

I don't get it all. I DON'T understand God.

WTF? You just contradicted yourself in one paragraph. Either you do understand god because you supposedly "know" he doesn't hate us or you DON'T understand God. You can't have It both ways.

He said he does not hate me despite me faults and i would be wrong to say otherwise and God does not hate you...

Jesus christ -- it's like listening to a three year old babbling incessantly saying the same thing over and over again: "God does not hate you...God does not hate you...God does not hate you...God does not hate you..." Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.

--S.

PhucWadGawd · 3 months ago

tjd5000, you've got some nerve talking about intellectual dishonesty when your entire belief system is intellectually dishonest. Oh right, maybe that's why you're such an "expert" on this matter.