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Just know that you aren't alone! We're all in this together.
Much love.
Who was it who talked about the Ten Commandments--I think it was Lewis Black--and noted that the second most important moral rule in the Universe was not to draw stuff.
Well, that's what the bible says. And everyone seems to ignore many of the Top Ten rules of morality in All Existence, while saying that the Ten Commandments is an important part of human experience. And The. Source. For. All. Morality.
You know. Don't work on the Sabbath. More important than, you know, maybe a rule that says owning another human being is wrong? Well. Guess those "good men" who wrote the bible didn't have time for that.
I still won't stand for anyone to tell me that the concept of abolition was outside of anyone's understanding at that time. If anything is self-evident, that one is it.
I'm in your shoes when it comes to very, very tight knit Christian community, the type of Christian that you were, and how your family and community don't know about your changes in direction yet. That's me, also! I'm shaking in my boots because I so desperately want to keep the respect, love, and closeness that I have with my loved ones. To do this, I live a lie. So who do they love? Someone I am not any longer. And who should they learn to love and respect? The real me.
I hope we both can gather the courage to confront our fears head-on!
I especially identified with what you said, "The negative thoughts and doubts were pushed to the back of my mind as the implications of them were too scary for me to contemplate. However over a period of a few months I could no longer ignore these niggling doubts... I had to face them." That's exactly what it felt to slowly realize that more and more parts of the faith I had been taught, just did not mesh with my understanding of reality. I would try to rationalize it away instead of face all the consequences of allowing myself to question my entire faith. But eventually there was too much to rationalize.
I did eventually "come out" to my family that I no longer wanted to be a part of their church. I have never told them about my agnostic/atheistic leanings, I simply let them know I wasn't, well, specifically, mormon any more. But that's plenty shocking to them. I found that this announcement was a very effective litmus test of my relatioships with various family members. Lots of them impressed me by continuing to love me and hold me in the same regard as they did when I was still religious. But some of them, particularly my mom, simply could not accept it, or accept me any more. One interesting thing I found is that how devout the person was, did not predict their reaction. Many of my very devout family members were still able to love me and accept me anyways, to my surprise.
Things have been very difficult with my mom. She reacted every bit as badly as I feared, and, she never got over it, and it's been 4 years since I told her. The problem in her case is that she is convinced that I "know" the church is true, but I am walking away from the church for now just because it's fun to sin and I'm too lazy to follow the rules of the church. Nothing could be further from the truth - leaving the church is FAR harder than staying, with all the backlash that comes with it! But because she thinks I am willfully sinning, she can't ever respect my decision.
But even when things seem stuck, they do get better. My life is a testament in my favor. My family is starting to see that I am not a sinner and that my life is not falling apart, that actually I am successful and happy. They are adjusting to the idea and starting to come around and warm up to me. By now, really, everyone loves and welcomes me at pretty much the same level as before I left, except for my mom, and I trust that with time, as she is the last one with a problem, she will have to choose to stop excluding herself from a circle of people that now accepts me.
In short, even when things seem irreparably damaged, there's always a light at the end of the tunnel, and things always get better, even if so slowly that you can barely see the progress. I do think, though, that if I hadn't had the advantage of already living on my own, with a circle of friends and a boyfriend who were not religious and supported me regardless of my beliefs, I may not have had the strength to fully question my beliefs and then become open with my family about my departure.
Leave home if you haven't already, strengthen your support network of friends outside your religious circle, and then you'll be ready to come forward. That's my advice. And feel free to talk to me about the process as it happens! fadedfire@gmail
On a more serious note, congratulations on taking a critical look at what you believe and why. You are a lot more equipped to deal with the world than most people your age or older. Also, there are a lot of people who are in similar questioning situations, so know that your are not alone by any stretch of the imagination.
Nearly everyone who visits this site is on your side. We support you all the way.
Regards,
Brian
A monk called William of Ocham once proposed that if you have two competing theories, you should go with the one that requires the fewest unknown facts.
We know people existed in the past. We know they wrote books. We know people have weird experiences. We know people have imaginations. That supports the "not the word of god" option.
We don't know anything that tells us that god actually exists. Any more than Santa Claus. We'd have to imagine a whole lot of stuff for which no evidence exists for the "evil god" theory.
Don't worry about God. Many of us don't. We don't worry about Santa Claus or Leprechauns either. It should be a big relief that the world around you starts to actually make sense, instead of contradicting half the things you've been brought up to believe.
But I don't envy you having to come out to your family. Good luck. Maybe you want to just ease them into it.
Jessica
Funny thing, though: If I say I'm nonreligious, they take that as normal; but if I ever said I don't really think there's any god they'd all be mortified. Considering the rural area we're from I guess that's all the enlightenment I should expect.
Oh, and Janelle, about being devout not being a predictor of how people will react to your leaving the fold, I've found the same thing among many of my former church members and bible college classmates. It's funny, but I think no matter how much some people say they believe their religion, many of them have an internal compass about love and morality that is more magnanimous than anything found in their bible. I've asked more than one former associate, "How does it feel knowing your better and more compassionate than your god?"
Beanheel
1. The bible is a book which was written by some good men, many thousands of years ago but is not the word of god, therefore I do not need to live my life by it....or.....
2. The bible is absolutely the word of god and represents him exactly as he is. If this is the case then the unloving, devious, revengeful tyrant presented is not someone/something I want to spend my life trying to serve."
Firstly, I'd love you to expand on your reasons for believing that the truth has to be one of the above alternatives. Is there any inherent reason why the truth couldn't be in between?
Secondly, does the bible literally have to be written by the hand of God, or alternatively be completely fictional? Is there any reason why it couldn't be divinely inspired without being word for word from the mouth and hand of God?
Secondly, I'd like you to expand on why, if the bible IS the word of God, you would completely reject it? If it is the word of God, then you're offered salvation from your sins by grace-embodied, Jesus Christ who died for you. So why you'd reject that is beyond me!
Trav said: "does the bible literally have to be written by the hand of God, or alternatively be completely fictional?"
see how the original poster NEVER said that the options was limited to that of it written down by God word for word by hand and then men by hand.
The original poster said either the Bible is an accurate representation of God or it is not - just a book written by men.
Its normal for misrepsentation to be used to color the opinions of others negatively for ones own agenda.
The options are
1.) A book inspired by God
(meaning it represents God accurately)
2.) A book written by men
(meaning its representation is false)
and now Trac wants to add(?)
3.) A fallible book inspired by God but distorted by men
But does it solve more problems than it creates?
the conundrum leads us to ....if God really wanted his message to go out to all the people wherefore are we left with the tainted option of a non-reliable human edited but perhaps slightly divinely inspired library of books with dubious authorships written and collated hundreds of years later after the events they speak about.
That not only throws out the issue of the veracity of the books but an assumption that they may have some divine merit than casts aspersions on the assumptions of the nature of divinity. Multiplying the issues to be considered.
Assuming this God is all-powerful, all-knowing yadda yadda.
Why would he would allow this bible to be edited, redacted, compiled, translated by normal fallible guys - compiled by Christians who could not agree with each other but were forced to agree by the political neccesities of a Roman emperor holding his empire together, like Jerome who would make translation errors in the Latin Vulgate bible, Luther who would add words in the Bible that supported his point of view, the KJV which seems to be missing a few books from when it was first compiled and the NIV in which a commitee voted from a number of options what was the correct intepretation.
So in between we get these two options we get the paradox of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benign God who knew this message is all-importnat but couldnt be bothered to exercise some of that omnipotent editorial control.
If he tries to save his point of view with such an argument only to invite more paradox into his worldview.
Then it throws out other subsequent problems - how can we determine which parts are human and which parts are divine. How can we determine which intepretations are correct or not correct. The Trinity has very little scriptural back up but yetis a cornerstone of the xtian faith - so are the ideas of infant baptism and the eucharist. (for certain denominations) more importantly is the fact that the middle option does not solve any problems - it merely accepts the fact that the Bible is not infallible and also opens up that God wants it to be with error. furthermore it makes the Bible less reliable than other religious books like the Quran which is supposedly directly dictated.
Any honest and convinced christian will not accept the middle option .
he can only do so once he has at least attempted to answer
a.) problem of omnipotence, omnipresence and benevelonce inability or unwillingness to keep his critical message free of distortion
b.) problem of intepretation
c.) problem of competing claims of more reliably compiled words of God
Furthermore he doesnt read the argument carefully- one does not want to serve a God who is an "unloving, devious, revengeful tyrant."
many xtians tend to forget the Bible has alot more than just the story of jesus death - alot of the other stories are much more terrifying and much less edifying.
And the rest of his argument is completely non-sequitor. He has to start from zero and prove
a.) existence of sin
b.) existence of Jesus
c.) jesus christ death being the mechanism for salvation
d.) fairness of the plan
and thats just after he proves
d.) Bible is the word of God.
Answer carefully.
Another question for the author- What does sex before marriage have to do with the truth of Christianity? Are you honestly telling us that because friends were out-debating you on the subject of sex before marriage, that this made you doubt your faith.!?!? I sincerely hope that I am missing something here....?
Regarding evolution, I' m not sure about you (dont wish to put words into your mouth :- ) ) but I find that a lot of people are actually fairly ignorant of what it is. A few things to keep in mind:
- It's a theory of the development of life, not a theory on the origin of life.
And obviously, the implications of this are massive. Most leading evolutionists either believe God started the process (eg: Francis Collins), remain agnostic on the issue or choose to believe that aliens from another planet deposited life on earth (Richard Dawkins). Either way, it isn't even an aspect of the theory itself.
- It does a questionable job of explaining even the development of life.
This is shown by the fact that the leading evolutionists can't even agree on how the process of evolution took place- they differ on punctuated equilibrium, statis etc. Basically what timeframes the developments of species took place over, what factors caused the changes in species or helped it along. In other words, massive disagreements over the key factors of the theory itself.
- Evolution is taught in classes because it's the best scientific theory we have available to us.
This doesn't mean that it's infallible, or that there aren't huge problems with it (there are), or that other theories don't also have some solid scientific evidence (they do).
What other theories, Trav?
It's obvious that life has evolved on this planet, even if we don't know whether it's origin was domestic or from somewhere else in space, or even brought here by super aliens.
What you call "huge problems" for the TOC, I see as minor only.
ATF (Who is sensing another woo-woo person here)
On onehand we have scientist actively testing their theories, arguing and forcing each other to come up with evidence for their hypothesis.
On the other hand we have BIBLICAL SCIENCE.
which gives us an ALTERNATE theory about the DEVELOPMENT OF LIFE
Genesis30: 37-39
37 Jacob, however, took fresh-cut branches from poplar, almond and plane trees and made white stripes on them by peeling the bark and exposing the white inner wood of the branches.
38 Then he placed the peeled branches in all the watering troughs, so that they would be directly in front of the flocks when they came to drink. When the flocks were in heat and came to drink,
39 they mated in front of the branches. And they bore young that were streaked or speckled or spotted.
sex while looking at sticks.
You can make up your own mind whether the Bible or a Scientific Methodology provides the more problematic conclusion and whether it has what Trav insists is neccessary - good solid scientific evidence.
Frankly Trav has become obsessed with another false duality - attacking the veracity of evolution actually does not improve the veracity of the Bible, or the Koran, or the Bhagavad-Gita. The real test of honesty and integrity is to see if trav willingly applies the same methods of critique to the Bible or does he merely just regurgitate apologetics without examining his own beliefs.
He attacks evolution on several grounds- will he apply the same methodology (scientific evidence/ lack of conflict of inetrpetation between adherents/ complete lack of problems/fallibility) to the Bible and the passage about sex and sticks?
Or will he just evade the burning questions by another rhethorical distraction?
' What does sex before marriage have to do with the truth of Christianity? Are you honestly telling us that because friends were out-debating you on the subject of sex before marriage, that this made you doubt your faith.!?!? I sincerely hope that I am missing something here....?'
I dont feel that your comments have been helpful at all. I wrote that testimony for reasons that i have stated earlier and it is my right to express the journey i have been through. If people want to ask questions or start discussions then that is great but for you to come on here and question me in such a scornful and ultimately abusive way is unfair. Of course I dont have all the answers but who does? I have just expressed my feelings and for you to attack me and patronize me is horrible. I thought that this site was for people who had been through similar situations regarding their deconversion, to talk, discuss and essentially help people to realise that they are not alone. Maybe I made the wrong judgement on that.
Jessica
Xtians cant help but choose to attack anybody who disagrees with them.
The website is open to all - so anybody can comment.
Somehow they don't get the name of the website - exchristian.
Not to worry about trolls like Trav here.
If he's not already licking his wounds, he will be if he returns again.
As far as your debating "sex before marriage" with your friends:
I was about your age when I first discovered the real meaning of "fornication".
Up to that point in my teen life, I guess I just had assumed it was another word for "adultery" in the bible.
Imagine my surprise when a friend (who had just become very religious) informed me of it's real meaning. I was nothing less than shocked that god had made some rule forbidding hormone driven teens (etc.) from having any sex.
While this 'new' rule didn't directly cause me to question god himself, it did cause me to look much closer at the bible than I previously had. Well sure enough, my friend was correct about this god-rule.
However, this discovery (and a few other factors), caused me now to look much deeper into the various sects of Christianity, which eventually led to my discovery that no human, no church, could possibly know what god had intended the obviously errant bible, to say.
After this failed quest of mine to reconcile the bible scripture, I put religion on the back burner, just figuring that perhaps one day someone would figure this whole darn mess out.
Of course, no one ever did, nor could, and it was only a matter of time before I realized that god was impossible.
So while the troll Trav here thinks that 'debating about sex' could never cause one to lose faith in the bible or it's god, he would be very wrong, as it sure was one of the primary reasons that led me to research the bible, and then later become an atheist; because of it's many problems that I hadn't known about previous to this sex issue coming about.
One needs only a little imagination to realize how debating about sex with friends, could cause one to question one's god faith.
Xtians like Trav surely have an imagination, but it only seems to work within their world of god 'thinking' and barely anywhere else.
So Jessica, don't fret about the trolls we attract here, as they'll either get pounded by the frequent members here, or the WM will ban them if they go too far, okay?
ATF (Who's not a "knight in shining armor", but has plenty of sharp "Tooths" to bite the annoying trolls with)
You are absolutely right when you said you "thought that this site was for people who had been through similar situations regarding their deconversion, to talk, discuss and essentially help people to realise that they are not alone." It's Trav The Troll who made the wrong judgment. Your response to him was perfect -- calling him out on his abusiveness! You go girl! 8-)
From my prospective -- that of a 50+ year old grandma -- when I was a teenager, I never could reconcile in my own mind why god would create us in such a way that by simply being how he created us, we were committing sin. (I'm talking about the average "normal" person...not a psychopath...that's a whole different story.) Talk about setting your "dearly beloved children" up for failure! Searching for the answer to that question was just another item on my list of reasons to believe god was nothing but a man-made invention used to control the masses.
As far as your parents go -- without knowing them, I'd have to advise treading softly until you're completely financially independent of them. Your first priority is your own future. Even if your parents accept your apostasy, they'll probably never really give up on your soul. Heck, just this morning my 76-year old mother sent me another one of her famous "jesus loves you and the angels protect you emails". I just shake my head, laugh, and hit "delete".
Jessica, you have a good head on your shoulders and you express yourself well. The way you handled Trav The Troll is a good indication of how you stick up for yourself. You'll need that ability in this "religulous" society. Keep it up. You're doing great.
If you look around this site (which I hope you have by now?), you'll notice two things.
1. Most 'articles' attract trolls (but not all)
2. It's a very rare day when a troll's comments are left unchallenged by us !!
Trolls do tend to hide when the article is about tough subjects that xtians have no answers to.
In contrast though, most personal testimonies attracts trolls, like flies to honey, mostly because they believe they still have a chance to re-infect the person with their god-virus.
So, 'not to worry' about the trolls, as they will be dealt with as they crawl out of their muck
ATF (Who is still awaiting any troll to show us proof of their god)
thanks
".
However, this discovery (and a few other factors), caused me now to look much deeper into the various sects of Christianity, which eventually led to my discovery that no human, no church, could possibly know what god had intended the obviously errant bible, to say."
So, do you also think it'd be impossible for humans to record an event in history where God acts?
If not, why not?
"
Of course, no one ever did, nor could, and it was only a matter of time before I realized that god was impossible."
Is the universe possible without God?
If so, please explain how you think the universe came about.
"
Xtians like Trav surely have an imagination, but it only seems to work within their world of god 'thinking' and barely anywhere else. "
As opposed to atheists, who only think freely within the confines of their secular humanism?
Lethal asks
1.) record history where God acts - question-begging - first need proof of God acting
Furthermore ATFs point was not about recording history where God acts rather that no one can ever know what God would have really wanted the Bible to say.
Your point rests on a misrepresentation. Pls read carefully troll.
2.) universe possible w/o God - rests on the assumption that existence of universe is evidence for God when that position is non-sequitor
a.) in Greek religious belief Zeus creates lightning
b.) lightning exists
c.) hence Zeus exists
d.) hence Greek religious belief is accurate
non-sequitor
Evidence for God creating the universe is critical - so far there is nothing convincing from you.
Onca again a misrepresentation - ATF did not say anything about the universe.
3.) logic and reason is not based on authority of revelation, a muslim or Hindu could be rational when it comes to the secular activity of mathematics or science because despite their religious differences the principles of reason are the same. on the other hand, religion is based on authority of revelation hence beliefs of adherent confied to religious worldview - christian, muslim, hindu beliefs would result in exclusion of core tenets of each other.
Misrepresentation that ATF said - refers to imagination.
Try again Troll.
As Monkeys pointed out to you already, I wasn't talking about if someone recorded a god-event in your holy book.
Rather, I was talking about what your bible has recorded about things like: Your god himself, his very unclear message to us and his odd method for the creation of the universe and it's life forms.
This piece-mealed bible book is full of many general contradictions, vagueness, unproven or false historical events, incorrect and ignorant science 'facts', and also makes claims about our earth's origin that clearly contradict modern scientific facts.
Worse, for the major events in both the OT and NT, no historians outside the bible writers seem to have known about these key events.
For instance, who else knew that god froze the sun in the sky?
Who else has reported that masses of Jewish slaves escaped from Egypt and who also wondered lost (LOST?) around a small desert for several decades, leaving no evidence behind?
Who else has reported 500 zombies popping out of their graves?
Who else wrote pages about your jesus and his miracles, and his huge following, and then his rumored death upon a cross?
I could go on with more examples, but I think those few will keep you quite busy trying to answer them.
L: Is the universe possible without God?
If so, please explain how you think the universe came about.
I'll make you a deal here.
You tell us how god came about, a being who is obviously far more complex than matter/energy, and then I'll tell you how I think matter/energy came to be, okay?
If you reply that "god always existed", then I'll just say back to you, that matter/energy always existed. We can play this game if you wish, but it will get us nowhere but a dead end.
ATF: "Xtians like Trav surely have an imagination, but it only seems to work within their world of god 'thinking' and barely anywhere else. "
L: As opposed to atheists, who only think freely within the confines of their secular humanism?
Okay, try real hard to comprehend what I'm going to tell you now.
Unlike yourself, most of us here have been on BOTH sides of this god/no-god fence.
We very much understand your thinking 'method' when it comes to this god of yours, for the simple reason we all once were in your shoes.
We all very much remember how we USED to see things through that god-filtered mind-set, and can now see quite clearly from the other side of the fence just how screwed up our thinking used to be.
You on the other hand, have never been on our side of this fence, and thus have no idea what critical/rational thinking is; where it applies to judging if your bible god is valid and his book, being one of his own mind.
You also assume here, that all atheist conform to "secular humanism".
This is simply not a true statement, as many atheist/agnostics just simply hold no belief in god and that's where it ends for them.
What atheist like myself do, is examine the evidence, both pro and con, and reach a conclusion based on either pure facts, or the most likely of the possible choices.
To be sure, your god's existence is far from being the most likely choice here !!
There is just zero evidence to be found, ANYWHERE, to support your bible god, not in confirmed miracles/interventions, not in answered prayer, not in anything that can't be explained by mere chance alone.
I've asked this before here and I'll repeat it just for you.
If god died tonight, what on this earth would be different in the morning?
Answer: NOTHING
God is not holding the universe together, nor it's basic atoms, nor is he providing some life-force to each living thing either.
There is no evidence for souls existing, or being part of each of us either.
Ghost stories are just that, stories, just like the one's in your fable bible book.
All the examined evidence says we are 100% biological/chemical creatures.
There is also no evidence for this bible devil creature, nor his many minions.
They are fabrications of imagination and fear, nothing more.
"Evil" is not a 'thing', nor is "Good", nor is one having a war with the other.
People are, what people are, nothing more, nothing less.
Some do very 'evil' things and some do very 'good' things, just because it's how nature made us and/or how we were brought-up to think.
Now that I've said all this, I ask you where your proof of this god is?
Where is your proof of this jesus?
Where is your credible proof that some 'outside' force is intervening in our human/earthly affairs?
There, that should keep you busy for quite some time, I should think.
ATF (Who is most curious why a xtian troll would pick such a name, as "Lethal"?)
So far the only proof that Jesus was God is an empty tomb?
But its not issit?
Jesuslives speaks movingly of truth but only offers conjencture.
We only have a book (which makes contradictory and confusing statements) that tells us there was an empty tomb - there is no evidence outside of a book (that speaks of talking donkeys and that pi = 3) that there even was a tomb.
Furthermore the NT contradicts itself on what actually happens after it says there was an empty tomb.. 3 different accounts.
Furthermore an empty tomb does not mean that Jesus was God, its non-sequitor. Many deities have resurection stories from the Near East to India. Just because they have resurrection stories means we have to believe in Baal-Habad, Shiva and Osiris? All these Gods furthermore predate Jesus by hundreds of yearsand furthermore many of these Near Eastern Gods were also SONS of GODs.
The troll JL - fails to even consider other reasons why a tomb may be empty.
The cross is probably not as horrible as some of the torture techniques that the Christians used in the Middle ages - lead in wounds, drawing adn quartering is even worse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Chair
Furthermore Jesus was only one man to be crucified, thousands of Rome's enemies were crucified - far more pagans and Romans throughout Rome's imperial history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Servile_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus
[Forgive me folks, but I have to stop laughing before I can reply to this.....Okay, I'm done now]
You know that this "empty tomb" event happened in the same manner that one would claim to know that Peter Pan could really fly.
Someone wrote it down in a book !
Do you automatically assume that anything and everything that has been written down in a book, is a fact?
If so, then surely you believe that Harry Potter was a real boy?
The fact is, that there is almost zero proof that your jesus ever lived, let alone was raised from the dead, leaving behind an empty tomb.
The ONLY source you have for this belief, resides in your fiction bible book and no where else.
To use the bible as evidence, you must first prove your bible book came from god.
Are you able to do this?
ATF (Who knows the cross is NOT the worst torture instrument man ever developed, by far)
No wonder I never got my letter
angela
I'm sure your Potter letter is ummm, "In the mail"; just like the refund check we always get from the property tax collector.
ATF (Who didn't know that hogs get warts)
Hey, I didn't get one of those either!
angela
I know because, no matter where I look, I cannot see him on the ground anywhere.
Now, surely, that is sufficient proof and grounds for worship!?!
;o)))
LOL, and yes, just as I'm sure the power company didn't send me a bill this month, if it's not in right there in my bill pile <g>
It's the same xtian logic that tells us that jesus surely rose from the dead, if the same legend book that made up the myth of his existence, reports that he also vanished from his tomb.
For the life of me, I can't understand how anyone TODAY, can believe such an obvious myth anymore. Such an unsupported wild belief, defies all logic and reason.
ATF (Who really thinks jesus was vanished from his tomb by Harry Potter, and flown up to heaven by Peter Pan)
Jesus was God and as God is an eternal being...Want proof that Jesus was God. It's the empty tomb.
Yeah right, this is bizarre and confusing.
Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
John 14:28
My Father is greater than I.
Is Jesus schizophrenic?
Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Jesus does not claim to be god; your doctrines are asinine.
--S.
Sconnor,
This passage has always bugged me on two levels.
1. If the trinity doctrine is factual, then how can the Father be "greater" than the Son jesus?
(What exactly does "greater" mean here anyway?
2. If all 3 god 'parts' of this trinity have always existed, then how can the son part, be the 'son' of another part of this equally divided god. That would imply that the Father-god must have created the Son at some point in time.
It's enough to make one's head EXPLODE
ATF (Who also thinks that if one third of this god, made himself human for a time, it doesn't mean he would be any less "greater")
Yes indeed, it sure does hurt.
That is to say, when you finally wake up from your bible induced nightmare, the withdrawal symptoms sure do hurt like heck.
It's only a matter of time before you experience this withdrawal pain, and this website will be right HERE, when you need it the most.
ATF (Who has learned that religion is a very addictive drug, that is sometimes painful to get off of)
You couldn't be more correct about religion being a very addictive drug!
I am so glad to be "clean and sober"
So what set YOU free of the religion drug addiction?
ATF (Who thinks someone should invent a religion removal pill)
It' been a long slow process of baby steps. I started with christian books about religious abuse etc, religious addiction etc, but in every christian book there was still an element of shame that bothered me. I read about the history of different denominations and saw that they were all invented by people and each one had a slightly different interpretation of the same book. I then began to read about Christian Universalism which helped me, along with the Steven Hassan book ,to get rid of my phobia of hell. Once I got rid of my phobia of hell I realized I didn't have to believe anything if I didn't want to because there would be no punishment. I also used to study the bible for about 2 hours a day and that really forced me to see the contradictions and double messages. One In particular is when apostle Paul in Galations tells people it was for freedom that Christ has set us free and never again let anyone put you into bondage, yet in one of his other writings he doesn't permit women to even speak in church -that sounds like bondage to me.(I'm sorry I don't have time to look up the exact passages, so I've taken the liberty to paraphrase.)
One of these days I will write out my extimony, but it is a very hard story to write because of the abuse I have suffered, so I have been procrastinating.
At least that give you a little bit of how I found my way out
Angela
Thanks for this small peek into your life's path :)
A: It' been a long slow process of baby steps.
I think it would be a rare person who took giant leaps on their way to becoming an EX-xtian, although I'm sure some did.
A: I read about the history of different denominations and saw that they were all invented by people and each one had a slightly different interpretation of the same book.
That was almost my own path, although I was more focused on trying to figure out which sect knew all the right answers to this god puzzle.
Like with you, I quickly discovered not one of them was in direct contact with this god and all were invented by men, of some era or another.
A: Once I got rid of my phobia of hell I realized I didn't have to believe anything if I didn't want to because there would be no punishment.
Sadly, the fear of this make-believe hell does keep many xtians from finding the truth of our reality.
Of course, those who formed the xtian religion and most churches who keep it alive, created and use this hell fear to keep their flocks, which is especially handy when a the god-reward-plan isn't good enough to keep someone in-line.
A: I also used to study the bible for about 2 hours a day and that really forced me to see the contradictions and double messages.
I knew in fair detail long ago, about many of the disagreements between the various sects, but it wasn't until just a few years ago that I discovered all the many inherent bible contradictions as well.
A: One In particular is when apostle Paul in Galations tells people it was for freedom that Christ has set us free and never again let anyone put you into bondage, yet in one of his other writings he doesn't permit women to even speak in church -that sounds like bondage to me.
Oh you don't have to convince me by citing the exact passage, as I'm quite familiar with this one. I often wonder how many churches today get around this very clear biblical 'rule'.
Churches surely must all own those cherry picker trucks, just because they are all so good at picking cherries <g>
A: One of these days I will write out my extimony, but it is a very hard story to write because of the abuse I have suffered, so I have been procrastinating.
Well, may I suggest to you that you leave out the hard-to-write parts, on your first testimony, and just put more detail to what you've already written here?
A: At least that give you a little bit of how I found my way
I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I really do think it does most of us some good to vent-out what we've been put through by these religious nuts in our lifetimes.
It's pretty much a fact that every EX-xtian here, had at one time been brainwashed by some church(es) and had a long hard trek in order to escape their mind-control techniques.
Escaping is something one should be very proud of, but most of us also feel some shame for falling for this BS in the first place.
ATF (Who still wants to go back and tell the younger 'me' of 40 years ago, to run from religion as fast as he can)
Thank you for the interjections about my story, I have decided to take your advice. About a year ago I began writing out my story. Today I submitted a part of it to this site. If accepted I will submit a conclusion that gives some detail of how I arrived where I am today. I haven't written that part yet so it might take a little time.
>I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I really do think it does most of us some good to vent-out what we've been put through by these religious nuts in our lifetimes.
I agree with you and originally I wanted to put my story into print, but I decided not to because of the turmoil it would cause within my family. I'm not ready to face that yet. At least I can share it here with many people who understand and have been through similar things-thanks for encouraging me I always enjoy your comments.
Angela
Yeah, well - facts never bother Christians much.
Já, and you yourself will know that when your faith dies and you, too, become an Ex-Christian.
"Jesus was God and as God is an eternal being He did the biggest thing He could when He voluntarily experienced death for you on the most horrible torture instrument that has ever been around: the cross."
No proof that Jesus was an actual person.
No evidence for the existence of gods.
And nobody takes the rap for Me, for any reason whatsoever.
Stuff your cruci-fiction up your rectum and go away.
That was pretty clever Astreja ;)
For a more PG rated version of this, I like to use "Cruise-of-Fiction" to.
ATF (Who thinks all xtians have mentally left the planet, on this Cruise-of-Fiction, booking the new King-Jesus-Titanic as their trusty cruise ship)
Jesus Christ came here for those who did not believe, and spent time, as you know, with sinners and unbelievers. Not the religious fanatics. They are actually the ones who were so blinded by the law that they couldn't even recognize thier saviour when he was right in front of them. Sometimes us as Christians can get so wrapped up in our religion and our laws, that we forget what Christ did for us in the first place. I have based my faith on my relationship with Him and being more like Him. While I still try not to sin (which is impossible to accomplish) I do it not to simply follow guidelines, but because I trust God and know that he knows what is best for me.
I grew up in a religous home too, but never knew God; just the rules. I rebelled at your age too but then began to really know God a couple of years ago. It is something that cannot be understood logically, which is why the people on this site have the doubts they do. But that is what faith is. Believing what is unseen. It is hard to do.
My advice to you, don't go back and live in a Christian bubble. But don't turn your back on God. He really loves you. Try to get to know Him. Until you have that relationship with Him, you will never really know why He did what He did . It sounds like you still believe in God but have doubts. I understand; the Bible is a complicated book. But it is easier to believe it is just a book and live however you want, than to believe it is more and live for a purpose. Just as they say the Bible is the opinion of man, so are their words.
So take it from someone who does know God and has experienced His love at a level I never knew was possible. It takes a decision from you though. It is not easy being a Christian. It is very hard work with a lot of trials, tribulations, suffering, persecution and hateful words against you. It takes a bigger person to endur that, then it does to live life simply to serve themselves. You choose. Choose God and their is a great reward waiting for you. I hope you make the right choice.
Once again we see emotional evidence for this bible god, but nothing beyond such useless 'evidence'.
God is imaginary Rachel, get over it.
ATF
but then began to really know God a couple of years ago. It is something that cannot be understood logically, which is why the people on this site have the doubts they do. But that is what faith is. Believing what is unseen. It is hard to do.
No not really; all you have to do is abandon any critical thinking skills you had, stifle the voice of reason, where you willingly choose to ignore and bury logic, steeping yourself in massive ignorance and morbid delusion -- easy!
Try to get to know Him. Until you have that relationship with Him, you will never really know why He did what He did.
You can't have a relationship with something that is not there. The only "relationship" you have is the one you have imagined -- a human construct in the confines of your mind. Your "relationship" is nothing but a metaphor, bordering on psychosis. You have deluded yourself into believing that a character, out of a book, is a friend of yours, personally. Using the bible and your particular interpretation of scripture, coupled with emotions (experienced His love at a level I never knew was possible) that you erroneously attribute to a supposed deity, you have crafted a massive delusion where you think an invisible god-man takes an interest in you, loves you, helps you and will save you.
Go away rachel, all you have to offer is gross ignorance, silly superstitions and cuckoo delusions.
--S.
The problem is that nobody can produce an objective, Universal outline of what "being a Christian should be". The upwards of 3,400 "Christian" denominations/split-offs is sufficient proof of this.
Continues.....I feel for believers who went through an experience which caused them to turn their backs on God
Actually, for most of us, it was our experiences - or more aptly, our non-experiences - in conjuction with our employing critical thinking skills, that led us to believe that there is simply no "God" to reject. If the "God" that you pretend to worship actually exists, it is behaving precisely as if it does not. So, I fail to see the difference, and thus, I choose to live my life as if it does not exist.(and mysteriously, it doesn't seem to care)
Continues.....What also really upsets me, is when certain Christians are so content to get their point out, that it becomes more hateful than loving (Jesus told us to love) More than anything we are to love.
Forgive me, but you are rocked. The "Christian" doctrine is full of instances of "hate". The "Christian" philosophy, when taken at its face-value, is abhorent; it is dispicable. You see, in order for cultural or liberal-minded "Christians" like you to come stumbling in here and say things like, "Jesus told us to love", you have to compartmentalize; you have to completely ignore(or rationalize) the biblical passages where biblegod is clearly a vengeful, jealous, murdering, petty hate-monger.
But more to the point----since when does it require belief in invisible beings to know that "we are to love"? 'Got a good answer?
Continues.....Jesus Christ came here for those who did not believe, and spent time, as you know, with sinners and unbelievers
Firstly, we're supposedly ALL "sinners", so you've attempted to make an irrelevent distinction. Secondly, if this assertion is true, then "Jesus" clearly made it a point to appear to skeptics..i.e.."unbelievers", yet, interestingly, this "Jesus" character has not appeared in over two thousand years, when strangely, the planet's population of "unbelievers"(and believers of opposing faiths) is rampant.
Thus, I can logically conclude one of two things: 1) "Jesus" doesn't care, or 2) "Jesus" doesn't exist(or is dead). I'm running with the latter.
Continues.....Sometimes us as Christians can get so wrapped up in our religion and our laws, that we forget what Christ did for us in the first place.
Or how about----sometimes "Christians can get so wrapped up" in their religion that they forget that it might not even be true. Personally, I think that is more apt.
Continues.....While I still try not to sin (which is impossible to accomplish) ...
So, you are being held accountible for possessing a characteristic that you, by your own admission, have zero control over, despite your efforts to "control" it. Does that not seem illogical to you?
Continues.....I do it not to simply follow guidelines, but because I trust God and know that he knows what is best for me.
Yes, and evidentally, being "guilty" of something you have no control over is "best" for you.
Continues.....I rebelled at your age too but then began to really know God a couple of years ago.
No, you *believe* you "really know God".
Continues.....It is something that cannot be understood logically, which is why the people on this site have the doubts they do.
Sure "belief in God" can be understood. In a nut-shell, it is simply you, projecting yourself onto the Natural, uncaring, impartial Universe, coupled with a failure to grasp the idea that one day you will cease to exist.
Continues.....It takes a bigger person to endur that, then it does to live life simply to serve themselves. You choose. Choose God and their is a great reward waiting for you. I hope you make the right choice.
Well, well, well......so it takes a "bigger person" to choose to believe a proposition when/if a "great reward" awaits them.
My goodness---thank reason I'm a "small person".
I didn't just decide to believe out of nowhere. I went through an experience which drew me. It was something that cannot be explained with evidence but I can only testify to. It is evidence to me and I am sharing it with you. Those who have hardened hearts won't hear my testimony. And thats fine. But don't blame God for your anger, and dont blame me. You talk as if Christians are judgemental and hateful (which some may be) but all this site does is judge us and hate us. I did nothing but try to give advice to someone who asked for it and what did I get? "Go away Rachel..." with name calling and character attacks.
I hope the one who needed advice heard my words. For the rest of you, continue to live your life selfishly and without purpose. But have fun now, because you never know when it will end. You have heard my words, so when God tells you "I never knew you" it will be no fault but your own. At that time, you will know who the ignorant one was.
Did you read what you wrote before you hit the 'post comment' button? I find it hard to believe people are so stupid sometimes, but you, ma'am, are. Please, take the other members' advice and beat it. This is a site for former and de-converting Christians, NOT current Christians. Here is the site disclaimer:
"The ExChristian.Net blog exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind. It is not an open challenge for Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their religious beliefs."
Now, seriously, go away.
-Emily
You make the mistake of assuming that we chose to turn our backs on your god.
The reality is that your god turned his back on us. He made us promises, delivered either through the book of myths that you claim to be his word, or through those xians whom you will claim to be his servants. When your god was asked to "put up" in terms of promises he had made, we discovered to our horror and dismay that all he invariable did was to "shut up".
"Ask and you shall receive..."; "If any two of your shall ask..."; Ask in my name and you shall...". Well, we did; and I promise you, we were not asking for a parking place, nor were we asking for pocket money or for world peace. We were asking for healing, power, faith, knowledge, the things he promised and which were supposed to enable us to be better disciples, evangelists and witnesses to the gospel.
We spent many, many hours in prayer, study, fasting and supplication, only to discover that the voice of god is not still, small and gentle, but silent. So silent, in fact, that it betrays absence so loudly that the conclusion is inescapable - milk jugs make better listeners and answer prayers with at least as great a success rate as gods do.
We do not live our lives selfishly and without purpose and it is very presumptive and exceptionally bad-mannered of you to suggest that we do. Our lives are so full of joy, now that we do not have to fight the imposition of false guilt that you have to live with.
If god ever tells me that he never knew me then he will confirm two things - 1. he is a liar and 2, he did not try hard to get my attention.
Rachel, why is it that xians always end up in the same place? You have basically said that your god loves us and that if we, poor simple sinful humans that we are, do not recognize that fact, he will torture us for eternity on an open fire. How do you cope withtheinevitable cognitive dissonance of your stated position.
I have never treated my children that badly,and hope you never have children if that is the highest level your loving, parenting skills will be able to aspire to.
you will notice that, unlike you, I have not been threatening and neither have I told you to go away or insulted you. What I have done is to gently correct you on a number of misconceptions and point out to you the hypocrisy and inconsistency of the being you claim to love and worship and who you claim cherishes us.
I look forward to speaking with you again.
Peace,
David
I hope the one who needed advice heard my words. For the rest of you, continue to live your life selfishly and without purpose. But have fun now, because you never know when it will end. You have heard my words, so when God tells you "I never knew you" it will be no fault but your own. At that time, you will know who the ignorant one was.
I wonder what happened to "(Jesus said we are to love)"????
Evidentally, the "Christian" idea of "love", is to...
- Tell other human beings their lives have no "purpose".
- Tell other human beings they are "selfish"
- Tell other human beings that they don't know when their lives will end(like a Xian does know this information)
- Call other human beings "ignorant".
Praise the Lord!
You are all over the place and there are only couple things I can reply to. First of all
You are correct. Man has created quite a circus with religion and churches over the years which has caused a lot of doubt and unbelief and disagreements between eachother. In the beginning the apostles started the churches, but they did not say to some, "be catholic or be methodist, or be episcopalian, etc". So while you are right about the confusion of the churches, it is not a good excuse. Don't blame God for man's mistakes.
Second, everything you say has been predicted by scripture thousands of years ago. I cannot argue with you because you are blinded by anything spiritual. You see 2 dimensional; therefore there is no point. We just see the world through different perspectives.
You seem very intelligent, but you will never match up to God and His wisdom. But you seem to believe what has evidence, so let me ask you this. Do you believe History books? A man made book writing about those things that happened long before our time. Why do you believe that? Because someone was there to witness it and write it down? This is what the Bible is. The Old Testament is a Jewish history book. It is written by men, (ex Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, men who History says existed) who had eye witness experience with God and the events during that time and wrote them down so that they could be known by future generations. (The same way we know history today). Egyptian history also has record of the events of the Exodus. If you study more you will learn that Abraham is connected not just with Jewish and Christian faiths, but with the Islamic faith as well.
The only difference between Biblical history and the history we believe as fact, is that God is left out. It doesn't mean He wasnt there, it just means that they chose not to teach about Him in schools, which is why many dont believe.
So I dont think it is a lack of evidence that causes you not to believe. You just choose not to out of convenience. Otherwise, you would not believe any history at all because you didnt see it with your own eyes.
You[boomSLANG] are all over the place and there are only couple things I can reply to.
If, by "all over the place", you mean, all over your armchair apologetics, then yes, that's where I am, and that's where I will stay, so long as I see fallacious reasoning in your posts, such as... compartmentalization; ad hominem; non-sequiturs, and appeals to authority.
Continues.....You are correct. Man has created quite a circus with religion and churches over the years which has caused a lot of doubt and unbelief and disagreements between each other.
Which doesn't build a very strong case for any human being, or group of human beings, who claim to have a monopoly on "Truth".
Continues.....In the beginning the apostles started the churches, but they did not say to some, "be catholic or be methodist, or be episcopalian, etc". So while you are right about the confusion of the churches, it is not a good excuse.
I'm not making an "excuse". The point was to illustrate that the likelihood of "Rachel" knowing what "a Christian should be", while millions of other self-professed "Christians" do not, is extremely low. In fact, if anyone is making excuses, it is you, doing so on the behalf of other "Christians"---you know..... the ones who've got it "all wrong"? What I hear, is----"don't give up on Christianity because of all those wrong-minded Christians!"
Continues.....Don't blame God for man's mistakes.
There is apparently a misunderstanding, as I most certainly do not believe in your "God", or any other. Thus, it would be silly for me to "blame" any such thing.
Continues.....Second, everything you say has been predicted by scripture thousands of years ago. I cannot argue with you because you are blinded by anything spiritual.
Are you suggesting that "nonbelievers"(aka..those "blinded by anything spiritual") were foretold via biblical "Prophecy"? If so, then you evidentally don't understand the implications that come with that. You see, if it was foretold that there'd be nonbelievers in the future to come, then the existence of nonbelievers is obviously necesssary for the "Prophecy" to be successful/fulfilled, otherwise, it would have been a failed "Prophecy", and thus, not a "Prophecy" at all. 'See the problem? My falling away, or being "blinded", is predestination..i.e.."God's Plan", in action, and seen to fruition.
Continues.....You see 2 dimensional; therefore there is no point. We just see the world through different perspectives.[bold added]
No, not really. If there are one hundred deities, I am 100% "Atheist"; you are 99 % "Atheist". You, of course, make an exception for 1. In other words, you use the same "perspective" I do when determining that all "spiritual" beings but your own, are nonexistent. You employ a double-standard; I do not. That is the difference.
Continues.....You seem very intelligent, but you will never match up to God and His wisdom.
I'm more intelligent, by default, because I actually exist.
But let's assume you're right for sake of argument. If "God" is so intelligent, why then, did he choose such a haphazard, unreliable method for getting its supposed message across, if so many "eternal souls" are at stake? Remember one thing, if nothing else: The "God" in question could simply appear and get its message across unequivocately, and we could still choose to reject that message. So, any "free will" argument for why this "intelligent" being cannot appear, is a not admissible. I hope you realize this.
Continues.....But you seem to believe what has evidence, so let me ask you this. Do you believe History books? A man made book writing about those things that happened long before our time. Why do you believe that?
Because I have no reason to not believe it. Furthermore, when "history" teachers teach about the past, they aren't telling us this information conditionally.
Continues.....This is what the Bible is. The Old Testament is a Jewish history book. It is written by men, (ex Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, men who History says existed) who had eye witness experience with God and the events during that time and wrote them down so that they could be known by future generations. (The same way we know history today).
So then you believe the eyewitnesses who signed the Book of Mormon as to its authenticity, right? If not--why not?
Continues.....The only difference between Biblical history and the history we believe as fact, is that God is left out.
Yes, "God" is left out, along with the rest of the supernatural, pseudo-spiritual byproducts of "God".
Continues.....It doesn't mean He wasnt there, it just means that they chose not to teach about Him in schools, which is why many dont believe.
It's not taught in schools because we have a church/state separation. Otherwise, our children would likely be being taught about Captain Noah, talking snakes, and walking cadavers, if the Christian Right could "choose" to have it that way.
Continues.....So I dont think it is a lack of evidence that causes you not to believe.
I'm sorry?....did I miss something? Where is the "evidence" that should be obvious to me, aside from you asserting that the Bible is an accurate rendering of "history"????????????
Continues.....You just choose not to[believe] out of convenience.
Oh, really? It's more "convenient" to be responsible for my own well-being and happiness? It's more "convenient" to believe that I will(with any luck) live the standard 70 or 80 years, and then it's lights out" for good? It's more "convenient" to admit that I don't know all the answers, rather than say "GOD DID IT!!!" I suggest your reevaluate your words.
Continues.....Otherwise, you would not believe any history at all because you didnt see it with your own eyes.
Again, I believe "history" based on what is most likely true; I do not accept it as the Absolute Truth, like the Bible's "history" claims to be "Absolute". ' See the difference yet?
It is obvious that as long as I speak for God, regardless of what I say, It will attract ugly remarks from you. The Bible says to avoid foolish arguments that render strife, so that is what I will do.
It seems that you have devoted your life to hating anyone who loves for Jesus sake. How is this justified? Why, if God doesn't exist do you spend so much time with Him? You obviously study the word enough to argue it effectively, which in the meantime, you are getting to know Him. You remind me of Paul. I believe that you can do a lot of good for the Lord, and I believe that you can be as influental as Paul. An intelligent man who was able to use his knowledge in the time when he persecuted Christians, during the time after he was given a revelation from Jesus. I believe it can still happen for you and that will be awesome.
A little encouragement for you :)
Let me ask you this.
Why should a child trust his father? Why does a father have rules for his child? Why does a father spank his child? It is not because he wants to hurt him or keep him from enjoying life. It is because he knows what is best for his child and knows his child needs to learn. Regardless of what you think or choose to believe, God is my Father, your Father, and the Father of everyone in the world. Some choose to accept the words and teaching of their Father while others choose to reject Him and go their own way. When a child shuts a parent out of their life, all the parent can do is love that child from afar. They can't physically help that child because the child won't let them. But if a child decides to walk with His father and live with his Father by his side, the Father can guide His child, and help him through life. When the child messes up, the child will have his Father to get him through it. The rebellious child is on his own. Yet, when things go wrong, the child that left his Father behind still gets angry if the Father does not help. But how can He if the child does call out to his Father and ask for it? It is not the fault of the Father, but of the child. The best part is, is that when you are ready to come back to Him, He is waiting with open arms.
I have rebelled both against my natural parents and against God my Father. When I decided to come back, both accepted me with so much love it is indescribable.
So Boomslang, I will not argue, I will just tell you that your Father is still waiting for you. No matter what hateful things you say about Him or how much you curse Him, He loves you and will always welcome you home.
But how can He [help] if the child does[n't] call out to his Father and ask for it? It is not the fault of the Father, but of the child
So God knows what's best for us, but refuses to help Its wayward child unless the children first ask for it?
He loves you and will always welcome you home.
Unless you happen to die before you repent. In which case, God's arbitrarily-set time limit for repenting has run out, and God ceases to care.
Awesome.
boomslang,
It is obvious that as long as I speak for God, regardless of what I say, It will attract ugly remarks from you.
Ugly remarks? Oh, you mean, anything that disagrees with "Rachel's" religious philosophy?
Continues....The Bible says to avoid foolish arguments that render strife, so that is what I will do.
Forgive me, but it doesn't seem to me that returning to address our "foolish arguments" over the course of several hours constitutes "avoiding" anything. Although, you do seem to be doing a good job of ignoring anything that's said to you.
Continues....It seems that you have devoted your life to hating anyone who loves for Jesus sake.
Is this seriously the best you can do in defending your religious beliefs? FYI, I have friends and family members who are still Christian. Needless to say, I don't "hate" them. However, I do "hate" what superstition has done to them in many instances. For sure, it seems to have effected you more adversely than they, because they don't attempt to belittle me when/if they discuss their beliefs with me. In fact, you don't exhibit one single characteristic that I find virtuous or admirable. WWJD? Evidentally, he'd call us "ignorant" and "selfish".
Continues....Why, if God doesn't exist do you spend so much time with Him?
My goodness, what a thoroughly ridiculous statement.
Okay, let me see if I can match the "logic":
If God does exist, Rachel, why do you spend so much time being an exchristian here on this exchristian website?
Continues....You obviously study the word enough to argue it effectively, which in the meantime, you are getting to know Him
Nah, not quite. My studing "the word" brought me to conclude that the monster described in its pages is a being that, a) doesn't likely exist at all, and b) if on the extremely off-chance it does exist, it certainly isn't worth my admiration, let alone my worship.
Continues....I believe that you can do a lot of good for the Lord, and I believe that you can be as influental as Paul. An intelligent man who was able to use his knowledge in the time when he persecuted Christians, during the time after he was given a revelation from Jesus. I believe it can still happen for you and that will be awesome.
When/if I get a "revelation from Jesus", I may have to reevaluate my position. In the mean time, if you read a fraction of the thousands of my posts here, I don't think you'd being saying I'm doing good for "the Lord". Trust me on that much.
Continues....Why should a child trust his father?
Because fathers exist. That's a start.
Continues....Why does a father have rules for his child?
Because fathers want their children to succeed in life, and one of the tools to ensure that they succeed, is to be disciplined. That being said, I don't know of any fathers that communicate with their children with pen and pencil, or any other means besides directly, person-to-person; face-to-face.
Continues....Why does a father spank his child?
Because he's not smart enough to reason, so instead, must resort to physcial violence?
Continues....It is not because [the "father"] wants to hurt [the "child"] or keep him from enjoying life. It is because he knows what is best for his child and knows his child needs to learn.
Perhaps. In any event, most of the "fathers" I know convey their wishes/desires for their children - whether good, or bad - directly to the child.
Continues....Regardless of what you think or choose to believe, God is my Father, your Father, and the Father of everyone in the world.
Regardless of what you think or choose to believe, "God" is an unproven, unconfirmed proposition that remains speculation.
Continues....Some choose to accept the words and teaching of their Father while others choose to reject Him and go their own way. When a child shuts a parent out of their life, all the parent can do is love that child from afar. They can't physically help that child because the child won't let them. But if a child decides to walk with His father and live with his Father by his side, the Father can guide His child, and help him through life. When the child messes up, the child will have his Father to get him through it. The rebellious child is on his own. Yet, when things go wrong, the child that left his Father behind still gets angry if the Father does not help. But how can He if the child does call out to his Father and ask for it? It is not the fault of the Father, but of the child. The best part is, is that when you are ready to come back to Him, He is waiting with open arms.
Well..... that would be the "best part"..... that is, if your tired and worn-out "father/child" analogy were actually analogous to us being fathered by magical, invisible, conscious beings who supposedly live in our cardiovascular organs. But of course, it's not. So, moving right along......
I have rebelled both against my natural parents and against God my Father. When I decided to come back, both accepted me with so much love it is indescribable.
'Good thing you came back to your real parents before they decided to track you down and incinerate you, huh?
Continues....So Boomslang, I will not argue, I will just tell you that your Father is still waiting for you.
Yes..... 'saw him just the other day, in fact. He says "hi".
Continues....No matter what hateful things you say about Him or how much you curse Him, He loves you and will always welcome you home
I have no reason to curse my dad these days. And while we see eye-to-eye on most things, he knows I'm too old to live at home.
~ May Reason find you.
Rachel, he doesn't have to be smarter than God. He just has to be smarter than you.
The only difference between Biblical history and the history we believe as fact, is that God is left out. It doesn't mean He wasnt there, it just means that they chose not to teach about Him in schools, which is why many dont believe.
Right - it has absolutely nothing to do with the plausibility of the belief system; it's because they aren't learning about it in school. Rachel, try to wrap your mind around this (it'll be hard, but give it a shot) - it isn't the job of government or of the public schools to indoctrinate everyone else's child with your regressive, punitive belief system.
So I dont think it is a lack of evidence that causes you not to believe. You just choose not to out of convenience.
Of course. In the end, it always comes down to this with you people; it's the last refuge of the fundamentalist who's exhausted his or her meager arsenal of defenses - "You could believe, if you REALLY wanted to."
And, for the record, Egyptian history does NOT have a record of the events of the book of Exodus. There is scant mention of the Israelites at all in the Egyptian records that have been uncovered, and none that indicate they were ever enslaved. Try reading a history book that wasn't authored by a Christian apologist.
Rachel,
First off, the bible is not a history book, but rather a STORY book.
Much of what is in the bible has no external sources to confirm these stories and in fact, much of it contradicts known history.
Secondly, 'history' does not inform us that a man named Moses ever existed, only your bible stories mention him.
Therefore, having a story character seeing god isn't worthy as proof of anything, other than the writer chose to have his invented character see some invented god character.
As far as some happening or event causing my loss of faith goes.
Once again you assumed wrongly.
It was ONLY the total lack of evidence for your god that made me realize god was all BS, followed later on by seeing how ridiculous your bible stories/dogma actually were.
Then even later I came to realize how sadistic your god behaves in the OT, making him the worst monster I've ever had the displeasure of knowing.
Please tell me how Moses wrote about his own death?
ATF (Who thinks xtians just can't accept that someone would lose faith, based on lack of evidence)
I am not sorry for the things I said because they are true. I will never put your feelings before my God and when you say hateful words to and about my God, I will not hold back the truth even if it may bruise your pride. Christians are not doormats, and nowhere in scripture does it tell us to be.
Firstly, how exactly is telling someone that they are "ignorant", and/or, that they have "no purpose", and/or, that they are "blinded', instrumental in showing them the supposed error of their thinking? 'Listening.
Secondly, if the "God" that you insist exists cannot convince us to believe, what makes you think that you can? 'Listening.
Lastly, you haven't proven that anyone will "perish" if they don't adopt your theology. Thus, I could make an apt analogy, such as, how about if I were to follow you around for week or two, and every time I saw you walking to your car, I ran up and shoved you down on the ground, and when you asked what I was doing, I told you...."Oh, that?.....well, an invisible bus was about to hit you, so I am simply saving you from a premature death, because I love and care for you!!!" How would that fly?
Now, perhaps you could see the act as one of kindness, but regardless, you don't believe in invisible buses, do you? No, of course not, so my "shoving you" would most likely become a very offensive gesture, one that you could probably live without, I'll bet. Same difference, except that you shove people around psychologically.
Continues.....Christians are not doormats, and nowhere in scripture does it tell us to be.
Although Christian doctrine doesn't use the specific word "doormat", it makes it clear that humanity is wreched, untrustworthy, and innately "evil'.
As I always say, at least you can wash a "doormat".
Christians are not doormats, and nowhere in scripture does it tell us to be.
Oh yes it does, you little, precious, whack-A-loon -- you. It might not use the word doormat, but it tells you how you should act like one.
Consider your own faults rather than criticizing others, don't be a hypocrite and be meek and humble and turn the other cheek.
Matthew 7:3-5 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Matthew 7:12 Treat others as you want them to treat you. This is what the Law and the Prophets are all about.
Luke 6:37 Don't judge others, and God won't judge you. Don't be hard on others, and God won't be hard on you. Forgive others, and God will forgive you.
Romans 12:19 Dear friends, don't try to get even. Let God take revenge.
Philippians 2:3-4 Don't be jealous or proud, but be humble and consider others more important than yourselves. Care about them as much as you care about yourselves
Colossians 3:12-13 God loves you and has chosen you as his own special people. So be gentle, kind, humble, meek, and patient.
Titus 3:1-2 Remind your people to obey the rulers and authorities and not to be rebellious. They must always be ready to do something helpful and not say cruel things or argue. They should be gentle and kind to everyone.
Matthew 5:39 But I tell you not to try to get even with a person who has done something to you. When someone slaps your right cheek, turn and let that person slap your other cheek.
Matthew 5:22 But I promise you that if you are angry with someone, you will have to stand trial. If you call someone a fool, you will be taken to court. And if you say that someone is worthless or a fool, you will be in danger of the fires of hell.
--S.
There you have it folks.
This is exactly why god based religions, are extremely DANGEROUS to all of humankind.
ATF (Who hopes Rachel never takes pilot lessons)
Thank you for your kind and respectful words. Your questions are legitimate and I understand them sincerely. I believe that your concerns are not out of hate or selfishness, but just out of frustration. My remarks were not about you or aimed towards you, but more towards those who choose to disrespect my God, My Father. It is not just a matter of disagreement but of utter bitterness that has been taken out on all who believe God is their Father. Just as you would not let anyone disrespect your parents, neither will we.
As far as prayer and fasting goes, we pray expecting God to work on our time, our way and if it doesnt happen when we want it to, then we give up. That is not asking in faith. If you read Johns prophesy in Revelations you will learn that things are happening according to the prophesy. We ask God for things that are not always His will, and are contrary to what the word says. The word says there will be suffering, children will rebel against parents etc. It will not be a perfect world. It is not because he wants us to suffer, but because trials and tribulations build character, wisdom and bring us closer to God if we choose to call on Him. And even when we call on Him, we can't expect for Him to just take the problem away "poof" its gone. He wants us to go through it so that we will come out stronger. You can't expect God to work for you without you doing anything yourself. This is why we praise Him through all circumstances. Because we know that His promises will come. The Bible says blessed is he who is mocked and persecuted in His name. Blessed is he who endurs trials and temptations.
What it boils down to: It is all a matter of faith in the unseen. You either have it or you dont. But like I said before. It is a choice.
Again,
Thank you for your respect
thank you for the reply. Just one question - as the events foretold by John in the Book of rEvelation have, to my knowledge been "fulfilled" in every generation since the 2nd century AD, why should this instance of fulfillment be any different? I have reached the point where the evidence is telling me it will never happen.
Good night and peace,
David
It is not different, simply more enhanced. If you look just in the past few decades you can see the changes in what's acceptable in the world. I believe it is the most evident in the children and their lack of respect and discipline. The bondage we have been put in by the credit companies, etc. Much but not all of this prophesy can be symbolism for something in the natural. Just be patient and keep your eyes open. He doesn't give a time frame but just tools to help us recognize.
You honestly think that these past generations are the only ones that have had rebellious youth? What about the bohemian culture in 1800s France? Late 19th century anarchists and socialists in Russia? Communists in China in the 1940s?
Your prophecies will fail to pass, as they have in every other century that they have been claimed to be fulfilled. Look up Sabbatai Zevi, look up the beginnings of the Seventh Day Adventists, look up the beginnings of the Jehova's Witnesses. You religious people keep screaming about how these are the last days, but a thousand years later nothing has happened. When will you people realize that you are wrong?
Children have ALWAYS been disrespectful to parents, which is why your god sanctioned the stoning of them.
General lack of discipline is generally the fault of 1960s & 70s academics who did not understand that although in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, in practice there is; these academics promoted new methods of education and child rearing which have demonstrably failed. Nothing to do with the imminent arrival of giant locusts.
We are in bondage to credit companies because we insisted on borrowing money, a practice which is not mandatory, or at least less so than was being in bondage to the church in previous times.
Part of loving someone, Rachel, is to seek their happiness. How many amputees with new limbs do you know?
Part of loving someone is not blaming them for the things you have done; yet your god blames us, through Adam and Eve, for his defective creation. A & E know no sin until after their transgression, when they gained knowledge of good and evil, yet your god cursed them and the rest of us. BTW, he told them they would die if the ate the fruit - they didn't. Your god lies so often that I cannot see any way in which he can be trusted in any situation.
If you give someone an ability, it is wrong the then blame them for using that ability.
Love and peace,
David
Good advice, easily the wisest thing you've said. And by the way I'm cool with it ending next month, next week, next hour, even this minute - once you do accept that it ends, what's the difference when?
I will go away. But i hope you realize that by unwelcoming other points of view to your site, you keep people like Jessica in the same bubble that she was in as a child. You dont want her to hear another point of view at the risk that it may change some minds, or void the validity of your argument. By shutting out the outside world, you create the same cultish aspects that you speak against. I can see that from your absence from God you have developed hate, which is where your hateful words come from. I am sorry you are offended by what I said, but that doesn't change the fact that you have spit in the eye of your creator. The man who was spit on, beaten, whipped, tortured, and killed in the most humiliating and painful way imaginable; all so you could be free; free to even speak ugly and hateful curses towards Him and those who strive to serve Him. I dont know about you but I appreciate anyone who would do that for me. I'm sorry you feel differently.
I suppose if someone pushes you out of the way of a moving car, you will spit in his face too. That is what has been done here.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!
I will go away. But i hope you realize that by unwelcoming other points of view to your site, you keep people.......
Good. Don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out -- you delusional, deer-in-the headlight, christian drone.
~and as rachel walks away you can hear the incessant cuckoo sounds slowly drift into the distance~ ~CUCKOO CUCKOO, cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo, cu, cu, cu ,cu, oooooooooooooooo~
--S.
Really?
No, Rachel, my dear naive little girl, you are not upset because former Christians are not interested in tired and worn, infantile and ignorant Christian apologetics. You are upset because there are voices being heard that reject your delusional religious nonsense. It is you who do not want contradicting opinions to be heard. It is you that would seek to shut the mouths of any who express anti-religious sentiment.
P.S.: We are not seeking your message, Rachel. Your opinion was not solicited. And, you remain free to ignore this website and pander around in religious fantasy-land. You, however, appear dissatisfied with only quietly serving your invisible friend, and feel instead compelled to shout down non-believers in order (I would guess) to relieve the deafening cognitive dissonance between your own ears.
We're EX-CHRISTIANS. We know your arguments, we know your point of view. We HAD your point of view. You've posted message after message on this site without being censored once. Stop whining.
BTW...I can be as mean or nice as I want, dear. I fear no eternal punishment nor await eternal reward. You've earned nothing but my ire and condescension.
"I suppose if someone pushes you out of the way of a moving car, you will spit in his face too."
Um, you're dumb. Don't suppose anything about me. You don't know me. All you know are preconceptions, lies, and idiocy. Spare me the drivel. And thanks for leaving!
-Emily
The only thing I've come to hate, are those who would deceive and brainwash those who are too gullible to not fall for their lies. This being especially true when it comes to our children, who by their very nature are easily mislead by those proclaiming make-believe gods etc..
> I am sorry you are offended by what I said, but that doesn't change the fact that you have spit in the eye of your creator.
It would only be possible to "spit in the eye" of a creator, if said creator were to stand in front of me. Because your god refuses to reveal himself in any tangible manner, the most I can do is spit in the eye of a fictional character from an ancient book.
Somehow I doubt this fictional character would even get moist from my spittle.
>The man who was spit on, beaten, whipped, tortured, and killed in the most humiliating and painful way imaginable....
I'm willing to bet that there have been millions of human throughout history, that suffered far more than your jesus did.
Of course, those who suffered and then died, didn't get to take just a 2 day nap and then go to a blissful heaven, via some godly star-trek "transporter beam".
You greatly assume that because your storybook tells you that it's primary character did all this suffering, that it actually happened in reality.
Of course, you have zero proof of this event, but insist that it surely happened anyway.
Please take your sick delusion away from those of us who managed to escape such severe brainwashing, with our brains still intact.
ATF (Who doesn't know if he feels more sad for, or more angry at, fundies like Rachel)
Good f#cking riddance.
"I can see that from your absence from God you have developed hate, which is where your hateful words come from."
Unsupported assertion. You, Rachel, and people like you, are the target of our enmity. Because you are a superstitious, deluded, self-righteous jerk. Your imaginary friend isn't around for us to hate.
"I am sorry you are offended by what I said, but that doesn't change the fact that you have spit in the eye of your creator."
Unsupported assertion. Furthermore, I don't see any evidence of this allegedly aggrieved supernatural entity rushing in to deal with us poor benighted non-believers... Could it be because it... doesn't actually exist? Hmm...
"The man who was spit on, beaten, whipped, tortured, and killed in the most humiliating and painful way imaginable..."
...was not the god-man described in the gospels. Period. At this very moment, Rachel, millions of people are suffering more than 'Jesus' ever did.
"...so you could be free..."
There is no 'freedom' in accepting substitutionary atonement in the form of a human sacrifice.
None.
Christianity is a stain on human dignity and morality.
"I suppose if someone pushes you out of the way of a moving car, you will spit in his face too."
Not at all. However, if a fanatic like you were to break into My home by dead of night, jumping up and down at My bedside and screaming about an invisible car driven by an invisible Bad Guy...
...Let's just say you would have a unique view on your rapid, airborne transit of the staircase on your way back downstairs.
Now keep your word... Out of our faces.