This is a very true arguement: But I advise you to turn to Buddhism. It doesn't preach about any creator God. It is the only democratic religion (Lord Buddha wanted his followers to explore other religions and understand that His preachings are the truth without taking it for granted). It is the ONLY religion that doesn't conflict with Darwin's thoery of evoloution and Science in general.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
To the person who said this:
"This is a very true arguement: But I advise you to turn to Buddhism. It doesn't preach about any creator God. It is the only democratic religion (Lord Buddha wanted his followers to explore other religions and understand that His preachings are the truth without taking it for granted). It is the ONLY religion that doesn't conflict with Darwin's thoery of evoloution and Science in general. "
Buddhism is NOT the ONLY religion that doesn't coflict with Darwin's theory of evolution. Catholicism doesn't either. You don't have to take the Bible LITERALLY when it says that God created Adam and Eve as the first people. I am a Catholic and the Bible is not necessarily meant to be taken literally. Many of the stories of the Old Testament are just stories to teach lessons.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
And to everyone who doesn't believe in God...where is your proof that he doesn't exist? Just because you can't see something does not mean that it isn't there. You can't see feelings such as love, but you definitely know that it is there. And talking about time and stuff like that...it can't just keep going back and back and back infinitely. Something or someone had to start it all. If you want you could check out Thomas Aquinas's five proofs that God exists.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
"We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume: If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?"
God did not create evil. He gave men and everything FREE WILL. God wanted a perfect world, but a perfect world does not include forcing people to love you and follow you. Therefore, God gave us free will to choose if we will love and follow him or not. Satan chose not to, like many people in this world choose not to.
Jim Arvo
· 3 years ago
(Isaiah 45:7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
.:webmaster:.
· 3 years ago
"God wanted a perfect world..."
So even a god can't get what he wants. And when he doesn't get it, he gets pissed.
Anonymous 3/13/2006 10:23 PM: "God did not create evil. He gave men and everything FREE WILL. God wanted a perfect world, but a perfect world does not include forcing people to love you and follow you. Therefore, God gave us free will to choose if we will love and follow him or not. Satan chose not to, like many people in this world choose not to."
I'll say it again, seems like many people want to "stuff" words in a gods proverbial mouth, thus, elevating themselves to a "god" status. Makes one wonder, if the person speaking on a god(s), behalf somehow has personal visits as well, in order to discuss matters left out of the bible.
Anonymous, you obviously haven't read the bible and pondered on free will that much, or you'd realize, that no one has free will, if they are born into "sin". Simply put, according to tradition, we were born into a pre-destined situation of sin, where an omniscient god knows whether of not we will choose to follow them or not, hence, no free will. Oh, sure, we may "think" we are making a choice in life, but... not really, according to original sin... according to much of religion, we are just living out our lives, exactly as an omniscient god knows we will. What a person thinks in novel, is a done deal in a gods' mind, thus, as humans we may theoretically think we are experiencing free will, but... to an omniscient god, the book of life has already been written, hence, why worry about what a person can't control. Many religionists are so spun up trying to control events outside of this universe, in their own mind, while letting their current real day-to-day life wither away.
Acts 13:48 - "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Rom.8:29-30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
2 Th.2:11-12 - "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."
2 Tim.1:9 - "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Eph.1:4-5 - "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."
Jude 4 - "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation."
By the way, if all mankind is predestined, then obviously all the suicide, murder, mass genocide, natural disasters, etc., are already known events, and god knowingly allows them to occur. Obviously, he/she/it feels there is some benefit in allowing pain and suffering to occur in this life, without our free will to make a change.
God's Plan, well, according to the bible...
Rom.9:11-22 - "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."
God "created" some to honor, and yet others to dishonor him/her/it. Then, of course, the finale, where those who were created to dishonor, were created for no less than examples to be set for others, as "god" fits them for destruction, to show his/her/its godly powers. Seems like god, uses coercion, manipulation, and outright deceit to keep those who will honor, in line.
Based on the christian view of a "god", I'd have to say I'm an Atheist, but, hey, I just don't believe in the christian concept of a god. The old codger just seems to be too self-centered and concerned with his/her/its ego, I'd go as far as the christian version of a god being narcissistic, but, that's just my opinion.
Regarding, god and satan, if we as humans were given free will, and satan was also, then... whose to say, satan didn't inspire the KJV bible. Obviously, tradition shows that satan was around long before the bible was written. It would at least explain all of the contradictions, atrocities, etc.
Onanite
· 3 years ago
Xtian god has all sorts of limits... MD, oh he can't heal that ... MS oh he can't heal that....limbs gone, oh he can't heal that.
From what I have seen of Pat Roberts "healings" on the 700 club, god can get rid of headaches, that's about it.
(snicker) So can I.
Onanite
.:webmaster:.
· 3 years ago
God can help you age slower too, through some of Pat's pancakes.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
If you are so certain god doesn't exist, and think everyone should open their eyes to "reality", then what makes you so certain I believe in your "scientific evidence", there just theories, just because you cant see God, doesnt mean he doesnt exist, it's called faith. Can you explain how earth is the only habital planet, such a perfect planet can be explained by science? And just how is it possible to have perfect organs too? Mere chance? goodluck with life
Brett Bazaar
· 1 month ago
Just for the record science is explained "theorized" by building a model of events that are known to be repeatable. Example; every time I drop an apple it falls down. There must be a force pulling it down (gravity). Is there proof of gravity ...no.. I could drop this apple tomorrow and it will just float. We take the past outcomes and build a model for future outcomes. This is science.
The only "proof" of God is a book thats over 2000 years old and "Mommy and Daddy said so"
So having faith in something that has no explanation or more proof than Santa Clause is not only ignorant but ridiculous.
Dano
· 3 years ago
Anonymous wrote:
"............Can you explain how earth is the only habital planet, such a perfect planet can be explained by science? And just how is it possible to have perfect organs too?........"
Anonymous! "perfect organs?" Are you a guy or a girl?
IF concave, please post your e-mail address. If your organs are perfect, I want to hear more!
Dan (Just curious!)
boomSLANG
· 3 years ago
Young anony takes a break from X-box to say: "...just because you cant see God, doesn't mean he doesn't exist, it's called faith."
Let's see....you can't "see" unicorns, the Great Pumpkin, the Easter Bunny, elves, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, imps, the Boogieman, Osiris, and/or a bazillion other "gods", either. I suppose you have "faith" in those, too?
BTW, science doesn't deal in absolutes--it's "only" a "theory" that you are breathing oxygen.(obviously, not enough) lol
Bentley
· 3 years ago
We happen to live on a planet in this corner of the Milky way Galaxie, we have no way of knowing if there are other planets inhabited in this galaxie.
Now the Milky Way Galaxie is just one of an estimated over 125 Billion other galaxies that exist in outer space, so to think that we are the only living beings in the Universe is just based totally on ignorance.
That's the reason that the Bible writers invented a God, because they could not comphrend that there were even other planets in outer space.
What amazes me is that anyone could still believe what some stupid jackasses wrote over 2000 years ago, not having practically any knowledge about any one thing.
Pull Your Head Out Nony
· 3 years ago
Anony: "And just how is it possible to have perfect organs too? Mere chance? goodluck with life"
Ah, another weenie who believes we were made of perfect mud, with a potters wheel in the middle of a perfect garden. Obivously, nony, seems to have overlooked the obvious extra organs we have, that aren't really serving functions, except to get us through a critical point during our evolutionary challenges, with our environment.
Santa says, people really don't exist, they're just magical creatures with perfect organs.
south2003
· 3 years ago
.:webmaster:. said... God can help you age slower too, through some of Pat's pancakes.
I went back to the pancake thread and found this posting -- absolutely hilarious!!!
hmmmm.... maybe he should stick an apple in Falwells big mouth and have bacon to go with em. If he keeps eaten this crap he'll never get off the ground when rapture comes .... Here i am Jesus ! ... bounce ...bounce...Help me Lord !....pull tarotpoker, 11.20.2003, 12:45 am #
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Better to believe then not believe there is a God! Isn't it better to be saved then sorry, later when it may be too late? What whould you have lost from believing there is the almighty God? I am sorry you do not believe in the Lord your God. I will pray for you. I have been healed physically through Jesus Christ our Saviour and It did put a stop to all my doubts. Thanks to God!
J. C. Samuelson
· 3 years ago
"Better to believe then not believe there is a God! Isn't it better to be saved then sorry, later when it may be too late? What whould you have lost from believing there is the almighty God?"
Don't bother. I know you probably think this is a nice thing to say, but really if you think about it, it's not. You're saying there's something wrong with the person you're offering to pray for.
If someone said, "I will sacrifice a chicken for you, that you might believe," would that make you feel loved and cared for?
"I have been healed physically through Jesus Christ our Saviour..."
Did you lose a limb and have it magically replaced overnight, or something equivalent? If not, I rather suspect there is a natural reason for your recovery.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
I did believe in God, then I got mad and blamed God for all my problems...then 17 years later, when I hit rock bottom, I cried out to the Lord our God. He was all I had left, and He was still there. He did pick me right up and I was healed spiritually and physically! So was my aunt. I will keep my sickness a secret for now, since you are so defensive about my faith in the Lord our God.
I still pray for all to come back to the Lord. Because I know what it is like to be against the Lord. I can tell you this, I really learned the hard way. It is the way you will learn as well, because of your attitude. You should know I felt similar to you for many years.
Speaking from expereince, I know there is still hope for all of you here. God's mercy is greater then his wrath. The greater the sinner the greater the right he/she has to His mercy.
The power of prayer is tremendous and meant to bring you good will. Please don't take it as an insult. I never knew there was a webiste like this in cyberspace. I have to say, I am shocked. I sent this link it to all my friends who love the Lord, to see what they think about this site.
Still, why not believe? Wouldn't be better to be safe by faith, then later to find out God exsists because you finally have come face to face with Him. Most of us relise that if we wait that long, it will be to late. What will you have lost by believing in the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
Love will conquer all. Have a great Labor day to all!
Bentley
· 3 years ago
Please keep in mind you're trying to have faith in invisible beings and souls which no one has ever seen, how can humans describe something that has never been seen?
I know you will say the wind exists, and it is invisible, but there are not volumes and volumes describing the wind,ok?
So you're taking the word of people that lived over 2000 years ago that they wrote about that are invisible and have never been proven and never been seen, atleast the wind can be proved to be real, whereas the things you're pretending to believe in, cannot be proved and never will be proved. All you have is a belief, nothing more, it's not much, it's something you wish for, thats all.
We're though with wishing and hoping and living in an fantasy mind delusion, but you're not.
J. C. Samuelson
· 3 years ago
"...when I hit rock bottom, I cried out to the Lord our God."
Everyone needs to be propped up from time to time, and some of us chose religion. But that is what it is - a prop. I used it, and ultimately discarded it.
There is a psychological benefit to be had from religion for those who need it. It's even been known to make some people behave better (my grandfather wouldn't know how to act otherwise - or says he wouldn't). However, not everyone needs it, and there are those who prefer living without it.
When religion turns people into evangelists, witnessing to all and sundry because they believe they've found the Absolute Truth™ it becomes a problem. When they visit ex-Christian websites and lecture former believers, it's a problem. When they ignore the fact that freedom of religion includes freedom from religion, it's a problem. You get the idea.
As for Pascal's Wager (did you follow the link?), it is a pathetic reason to believe in something. By that logic, I should believe in each and every god just in case I might be wrong about one of them. Even you can see how ridiculous that would be, can't you?
"The power of prayer is tremendous and meant to bring you good will. Please don't take it as an insult."
I understood your intent, but wanted to point out that it is also condescending. To illustrate (again):
"You shouldn't believe in the Christian god. You should follow the Great Pumpkin. I will circle the patch thrice 'round clockwise and sacrifice a canteloupe, spilling its nectar over the ground. It's widely known that doing such a thing releases great power."
Since you're not a Great Pumpkin follower, I'm doing something on your behalf because you are in some way deficient. Does this make sense to you?
boomSLANG
· 3 years ago
Anonymous fundamentalist said:
"I did believe in God, then I got mad and blamed God for all my problems...then 17 years later, when I hit rock bottom, I cried out to the Lord our God."
Correction--you cried out to YOUR "God". Remember, you are not in church giving your testimonial to the congregation, so please--- don't start rattling off a bunch of presuppositional biblio-babble, because it means jack here. Right to the chase: You have zero evidence that your personal experience involves anything outside of your head. None. We are not "angry at God" anymore than you are angry at Shazam. We are, however, concerned that grown adults believe in talking snakes, a flat earth, ghosts, monsters, bloody rivers, unicorns, winged "body-guards", talking vegetation, sky domes, flaming chariots, swimming hammers, people made out of dust, and finally.... that they will live eternally in a blissful retirement center in the clouds.
"I still pray for all to come back to the Lord. Because I know what it is like to be against the Lord."
Okaaaay, prayer is useless..."use"--"LESS"..i.e..."ineffective". It is ancient superstition, nothing more. And again, we are not "against the Lord", because there IS no "Lord". If you still feel convinced that "prayer" works, then please----pray that we are all saved and this website is closed down by high-noon tomorrow. Good "luck".
Fundy: "Speaking from expereince, I know there is still hope for all of you here. God's mercy is greater then his wrath. The greater the sinner the greater the right he/she has to His mercy."
Really?..there is "hope" for us? Why thank you, you brainwashed condescending prick. Again, your Gawd is non-existant, and we don't need you and your ilk's petty patronizing pitty. Unless you have evidence for your biblegawd, I suggest you don't come back.
Fundy: "Still, why not believe? Wouldn't be better to be saf......blah, blah, blah, BLAH, BLAHHH!"
Boy-0-boy, how original.. Pascal's Wager... or, believe "just in case". That shows just how little confidence you have in your mythological conviction, which is surprising for all the ministering you've been doing.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
What I see here, through all your picking and complaining...is alot of animocity toward your fellow man. I expect that from someone who says that there is no God...that there is no creator of the universe etc....
However it is common to be persecuted for belief in the Lord Jesus Christ our God, from those who are convinced there is no Eternal Father, the Lord God.
And it will continue till the end of times. And it will get worse until then.
So, I found through personal expeience, it is better to beleive then live the non-believers way of thinking. More Goodness comes from it.
As convinced as you claim there is no God...I am convinced otherwise and as strongly as you feel about it.
AS for prayers.... The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist. Then you will believe? Right?
I will work on this. Take care. And by the way I do hope this site stays up..because it is easier to find you all. LOL!
boomSLANG
· 3 years ago
Fundonymous said: "What I see here, through all your picking and complaining...is alot of animocity toward your fellow man."
What I see here is person who has become all shocked and indignant because an EX-Christian website has people who don't believe in Christ.(WTF?) Go grab a twelvepack of beer and head down to your local AA affiliate and see if you are received with a warm welcome. Tell them that they are "misinterpreting" the warning label, and the reason that they've lost their jobs, family, houses, and everything else, is because they haven't been drinking "Godweiser"---the only "true" alcoholic beverage.
Fundymouse said: "So, I found through personal expeience, it is better to beleive then live the non-believers way of thinking. More Goodness comes from it."
Please provide evidence for this absurd notion.
Fundonymous said: "As convinced as you claim there is no God...I am convinced otherwise and as strongly as you feel about it."
Yes, you are "convinced" and "feel strongly", just like any Sunni Muslim is convinced and feels strongly about Muhammad. Now convince us, with empirical evidence, that he's wrong and you are right.
Fundymouse said: "AS for prayers.... The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist. Then you will believe? Right?"
A "sign"? Hell no, I want him to appear, IN THE FLESH---like he appeared to "hundreds" of people 2000 years ago---then, being the "miracle working all-loving God" Jesus is, I want him to go to St. Jude's Children's hospital and put it out of business, completely healing every child in there, so they can all go home with their parents where they belong. I won't hold my breath, though.
J. C. Samuelson
· 3 years ago
"What I see here...is alot of animocity toward your fellow man."
Heaping ridicule on an idea is not the same as personal animosity. I have no animosity toward you personally. You might be the nicest person in the world. Your faith is your choice, and I have no problem with that either.
You came to a site which is filled with former believers, who have already heard or spoken the same words you have hundreds - perhaps thousands - of times. Combined with the continual barrage of nonsense provided courtesy of T.V. evangelists, family members and friends, the Internet, and of course the endless stream of Christian posters on this website, it gets pretty tiresome. Strong reactions are highly likely. Reading more of the threads could've told you this, and perhaps informed you of a better approach, or warned you not to approach at all.
"...it is common to be persecuted for belief in the Lord Jesus Christ our God..."
You are not being persecuted.
persecute(v) 1 : to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief 2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) Merriam-Webster
No one here harassed you. No one here is punishing you in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict you. If you are suffering because we've disagreed, then I'd suggest growing a thicker skin.
When your ideas are being criticized, it is not persecution. When you are censored, restricted, and/or physically harmed in order to inhibit your practice of your faith or because of it, that's persecution.
"The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist. Then you will believe? Right?"
Signs, signs, everywhere a sign...
Well, to hear Evangelicals tell it, all any of us has to do is wait about 50 years or so. Then Jesus Christ will make a miraculous appearance in the clouds, coming down to Rapture His church away - or kick off the Tribulation, I forget. All this with no prayers required!
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
By that time it will be too late. I was speaking of a sign that will undoubtedly make you believe before the end comes.
Well when someone threatens me with not coming back here, I consider that a from of persecution.(restriction was implied)
When you speak of the one and only God, with such lack and reverence thereof... others, like I, hold so dear to our hearts, because of the Love we have for the Lord. It is easy to say what you have here is more of an Anti-God site or Anti-Christ site, from which normally breeds diobolical forces.
I know this is a long shot...BUT.. Do you beleive in the devil? Or Hell? I would like to know what you think of evil forces in the world.
And on that day, your last day...what will you be thinking as you go out of this world? You know typically most people cry out to the Lord at that point. Because they know that is all they can do.
Just curious. By the way I did write I used to believe and then didn't..and then came back to my faith in the Lord.
I know alot of people who don't believe in God..I just never saw it put like this is all.
.:webmaster:.
· 3 years ago
Anonymous,
This is a private website with a clearly stated purpose. Have you read the site disclaimer?
Regardless, what you've done here is barge in the door and begin to aggressively preach. You've basically crashed a private party that is being held in a public park. Then, after setting up your pulpit in that party, one of the people who was invited to the party rebuked your rudeness.
Now, how in the world is being rebuked for rudeness persecution? I guess if I were to crash your church on Sunday morning, and start disrupting the service, and as a result was thrown out of the building, then I could claim persecution too.
Seriously, don't play the persecution card unless you're actually being persecuted for your religion. There are people in the world suffering persecution for their religion, but there is no such thing as persecution in America. There are chruches on every corner, preachers on every television channel and religious books overflowing every bookstore. Don't mistake rejection of your religion by someone, or even loathing of your religion by someone, as persecution, because it is NOT persecution.
However, if you'd like to be persecuted, please go to a country where religion dominates the government, like in the Middle East, and start preaching. I'm sure that there you'll find the persecution you're looking for.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
So thanks for the breakdown on persecution. As far as barging in, I was surfing the net when I came across your site. I found it interesting is all. I just wondered if there are diobolical forces working here. Do you allow devil worshipers to post comments? I saw some really sickening photos attached to your site. Some are clearly diobolical. photos of immorality etc... some are just so bad. It would be like me showing a picture of a beloved one to someone and then having that person hate my beloved and then doing all kinds of unmentionable things to that photo. Clearly it is down out of hatred.
Jeff was giving me feedback is all. I want to know more about why people leave Christianity for good.
.:webmaster:.
· 3 years ago
"I want to know more about why people leave Christianity for good."
The same reason they leave any false cult for good.
Dave8
· 3 years ago
Anony: "I found it interesting is all. I just wondered if there are diobolical forces working here. Do you allow devil worshipers to post comments?"
Do you believe in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution? More notably, the portion that prohibits the federal legislature from making laws that...
1-Establish a state religion or prefer certain religion (the "Establishment Clause");
2-Prohibit free exercise of religion (the "Free Exercise Clause");
3-Infringe the freedom of speech;
4-Infringe the freedom of the press;
5-Limit the right to assemble peaceably;
Now, obviously, if religionists use their guaranteed first amendment, specifically, the number two freedom above, to attack the entire U.S. citizenry's right to first amendment freedoms, then don't you think that it is at a minimum - hypocritical. A religionist using their freedom of speech to deny everyone elses'. The really diabolical insight, is seeing the unrestrained search for power by entire religious organizations, in order to control others.
Anony: "I saw some really sickening photos attached to your site. Some are clearly diobolical."
Well... flesh peeling off of a pregnant woman being burned on a stake/pole as a "witch", using the Old Testament for support, in order for christian leaders to cleanse them of their diabolical demon that just has to be there, would be more sickening... Even more sickening, is hearing someone use the OT to show their support of such atrocities.
Anony: "photos of immorality etc... some are just so bad. It would be like me showing a picture of a beloved one to someone and then having that person hate my beloved and then doing all kinds of unmentionable things to that photo."
Immorality? That's what the majority vote discerns. What may be considered "moral", might well, not be "right".
For instance, its against the law to give medication prescribed by a doctor to another person who has the same medical needs, even if the other person doesn't have the money/means to acquire the exact same medication.
Its "moral" to follow the law, is it not? Is it "right", to watch a little child die in agonizing pain, in order to be moral? What is considered "morally" right, by a majority of people, or by a legislature, doesn't make it "right". One would hope, that the two would meet somewhere, e.g., the law, and what is right. Perhaps, courts were created to find a middle ground.
Anony: "I want to know more about why people leave Christianity for good."
I'd like to know, why you don't believe in Santa Clause as a real figure who involves themselves in your life, on a yearly basis.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
I see you can not give me a clear answer on the points I have tapped into here. St. Nicholas was a real person. He is a Canonized Saint. So he was a real person way back when. So most children have fun with that idea. I did. The fake Santa is just a festive fun thing. Then you get older and your parents tell you it was a child thing. So what?
God is much different. There is no comparrison. That is rediculous to even insinuate.
Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus. Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either. In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society.
Many peope don't get out of cults. They are so weak minded that they are trapped in their own mind. I don't know any Christian that is trapped like that. Free will is the gift.
The bottom line is you and I are by free will excersing our gift. But in the end only one will win.
So what do you think of death. Are you afraid?
boomSLANG
· 3 years ago
Fundonymous said: "St. Nicholas was a real person. He is a Canonized Saint."
Um, evidently, you don't grasp the "Santa" analogy, do you?. I know twenty Mexicans named "Jesus", so-the-f%ck what?.....people named "Jesus" are "real" people...SO?...that doesn't mean that the biblical Jesus did miracle, one, let alone that he is a "God". So your little "history of Santa" is totally irrelevant.
Fundonymous: "Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus."
Listen up, Einstein---currently, your President is a Christ-sucker just like you, as well as the Senate and House being mostly right-wing conservatives(And I don't mean ISLAMIC conservative). Anyway, please tell me---how is THAT "communist"?
Fundonymous: "Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either. In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society."
Anon---just the fact that you lump Atheists in with devil worship shows that you have zero clue what Atheism even means. People who worship a man with horns and a pitchfork are wasting just as much time as people who worship a man nailed to a stick. It's ALL mythology---legendary "thinking". And your assertion that Atheists make, um...a "more sicker society"? I don't see any evidence of that, but I certainly see evidence that religious people make a "more stupider" society ;)
J. C. Samuelson
· 3 years ago
"I was speaking of a sign that will undoubtedly make you believe before the end comes."
I think I've posted this elsewhere, but essentially God Himself would have to appear in such a way that the appearance could be independently verified by a very large and diverse number of people, including scientific and governmental organizations.
However, that would not eliminate questions. The God described in the Bible exhibits behavior that could easily be described as petty and tyrannical. Perhaps if Oprah could interview God?
"Well when someone threatens me with not coming back here, I consider that a from of persecution.(restriction was implied)"
Where is this implied? If you're talking about the mildly hostile reception you received, that in no way implies you will be prohibited from posting. At least, not that I know of.
"It is easy to say what you have here is more of an Anti-God site or Anti-Christ site, from which normally breeds diobolical forces."
It may be easy to say, but that doesn't make it true. It's easy for me to say that Christianity teaches hatred, but that doesn't make it true.
This is not an anti-God or anti-Christ site. That all-or-nothing or 'if-you-aren't-for-us' attitude fails to take into account that many here simply lack belief, and/or feel that religion is a pastime of limited use, or worse. In other words, if this site is anti- anything, it's anti-Christianity.
And what examples can you provide that a lack of belief in God breeds 'diabolical forces.'?
"Do you beleive in the devil? Or Hell?"
No. Such myths have no basis or application in the real world.
"I would like to know what you think of evil forces in the world."
Evil forces might include those that commit acts of mass murder, such as genocide, for any reason. Other evil forces might include those that seek to take away or restrict basic human freedoms, such as the freedom of religion or of speech. That includes religions or speech that we don't agree with (within reason).
Incidentally, I think it's safe to say that no one here would advocate legislating your right to believe or speak as you wish away from you. Again, within reason.
"And on that day, your last day...what will you be thinking as you go out of this world?"
Well, assuming I'm capable of rational thought, I'll be thinking about my life, hoping that I've been able to leave a positive legacy for my daughter and others to follow. I don't fear death itself or what, if anything, might come after.
"...typically most people cry out to the Lord..."
That's a very sweeping statement, and of dubious merit. Most Christians or those raised in a Christian culture may do that, or perhaps think about doing so. Those raised in societies in with other majority beliefs probably don't. This is a significant number of people (between 4 and 5 billion, I think).
By the way I did write I used to believe and then didn't..and then came back to my faith in the Lord."
Yes you did, and I think we understand that. However, if you were hoping that it would be in some way persuasive in leading us back to your faith or lend greater credulity to your arguments, you were mistaken.
"I just wondered if there are diobolical forces working here. Do you allow devil worshipers to post comments?"
If you're referring to the influence of the devil or demons, I'd say no because outside the Bible there's no indication such things exist. If you are implying something else, please be clear.
As for devil worshippers, I don't know if any have posted here or not. Chances are at some point one or more of the visitors to the site have been or still are devil worshippers. All the same, if they started posting about the reality of the devil they would likely be treated to the same level of skepticism as any Christian.
To believe in the devil is to give credulity to the Christian Bible (and some other religious texts), which is something most here probably wouldn't do.
"Clearly it is down out of hatred."
To which items are you referring? Have you considered the possibility that some of the items were done simply in order to poke fun?
"I see you can not give me a clear answer on the points I have tapped into here."
Which points? In any case, everyone will have a different answer for why they don't believe or left the faith. In other words, it's subjective. So, if you were hoping for one catch-all answer for everyone, your hope was in vain.
St. Nicholas was a real person. He is a Canonized Saint. So he was a real person way back when."
Many - not all - myths have some basis in real events and/or people. That doesn't diminish the fact that they are myths, though. Santa Clause is a myth, plain and simple.
"God is much different. There is no comparrison."
I would agree. There is even less basis for a belief in God, because there is no evidence such an entity has ever existed to by mythologized in the same manner as St. Nicholas. The only 'evidence' that every Christian can point to with agreement is the Bible, which is a book written, handled, transmitted, and translated by human hands, and full of mythological imagery.
Any individual witnesses to God's reality based on personal experience is at best anecdotal. Since such things are highly subjective (because they are so personal), none of it can ever be independently verified.
We may be able to measure brain activity that correlates to certain religious practices (such as prayer), but since this brain activity occurs whether one is a Christian or a Hindu this isn't evidence for God. All it proves is that religious practice in some way influences, or is influenced by, physical responses in the brain.
"Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus."
Governments are corrupt because money and power corrupts, not because of a particular ideology. Our government is corrupt and most of the top officials profess Christianity as their faith.
By the way, which decade are you living in? Communist influence? C'mon...
"Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either. In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society."
They do? Ever been to Sweden? How about Denmark, Norway, Japan, Finland, South Korea, France or Germany, Britain, Canada, or Israel? Each of these societies is in the Top 20 places in the world in which people claim/admit to atheism or agnosticism. See here.
Admittedly, there are some countries in the list that suffer from poverty or are governed by morally corrupt governments. However, this isn't necessarily a reflection on the people who live there. Vietnam, for example, suffers from poverty brought on by Socialism, and is ruled with more or less an iron fist. However, my father has visited several times and speaks mostly about the friendliness and strong family-oriented psychology of the people themselves.
"I don't know any Christian that is trapped like that."
Religious adherents are willing participants in their own entrapment, whether it is within a cult or what is considered a mainstream religion. They are free to leave any time they wish, but usually don't wish to. That's the beauty of brainwashing.
"But in the end only one will win."
Life is a competition for survival perhaps, not about who is right.
"So what do you think of death. Are you afraid?"
Not in the least. I admit I would prefer to die in my sleep rather than by violent means, but I don't fear death itself.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
This was good info, thanks JC. And I appreciate you putting it kindly. That is kind of Christian of you to say the least. (no offense) Or just good of you to say the most.
What have you to say of Voodoo? My finance is from Hati, and he has witnessed many forms of diobolical forces....such as seeing men turn into animals and the walking dead. Have you been to countries like this that practice Voodoo? Isn't this demonic forces / dark forces prevailing on earth?
The photos I have found here are more then just poking fun of Jesus Christ though...I think... it is more like gross to me.
Re: death One day I passed out, but did not loose total conciousness. It was the most strangest thing I ever felt. My body was not able to move, my eyes were shut and I could not open them either...I became extremely panicked...I relised that I had no control over my life..I surrendered..then I relised a tremendous peace came over me...I couldn't help but think of God..I equate this to the body is seperate from the soul. What you to say about this type of expereince? Ever hear of it?
The Bible. I have noticed that man has made the same mistakes over and over again in the history of the Bible applied to today and throughout history since we have had the Bible. This includes trying to have a society that excludes God or doesn't beleive in the exsistence in a divine God.the consequences always end up with us being destroyed or chastised. Do you find this just a coincidence? Many have taken the Bible as a guideline to life and it has seemd to be helpful in how to live a better life. Like the book of Proverbs for instance.
Where does a ex Christian learn from to live a positive life and what does that life consist of? And what is that life like?
Thanks for all your input again.
Dennis
· 3 years ago
I have really enjoyed these posts. I can answer the last question. I dont believe in any god, im 53 years old, and as I was growing up, my parents, experiences, and my ongoing vision of life have taught me what is right, wrong, good, bad, and so on. I firmly believe, that you don't have to believe in god to be a good person. Just as some are mechanically inclined, some are inclined to be good to themselves and others, without having to constantly refer to a manual. One's comon sense should be sufficient by the time they reach adulthood.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
But would believing in the one and only God of the Bible make your life worse? Wouldn't it be better to beleive then to find out in the end on your death bed that God does really exsist and that you have regrets? And then it would be to late? What harm does it bring to you to believe?
Shannon
· 3 years ago
Which god? There are almost 5,000 historical gods and just in the United States, alone, there are around 600 different Christian denominations. If we are going to do this ‘just in case’ and put all our soul into one basket – which god should we choose? Do we pander to the god who has the worst hell or would it be better to pucker up to the god who has the best heaven? Or maybe we should pick the god that has a work release program – where we can work off lesser sins in purgatory yet eventually work our way into heaven. That way we could have some fudging room in this life for personal sin – whore, drink, smoke. You know, those kinds of things.
Never mind.
boomSLANG
· 3 years ago
Anony asked: "But would believing in the one and only God of the Bible make your life worse?"
......::yawn::......
Okay, firstly, there is zero evidence for the existance of ANY deity, let alone the X-ian biblegod. If you have said evidence, let's hear it.(hopefully you won't be an amateur and put forth the bible as "evidence".) Secondly, yes, going through life believing a lie can make your life "worse". If on your "death bed" your signifigant other tells you that they never really loved you, and in fact, loved someone else, it would be bad---especially when you saw the "signs"(evidence) early on, but chose to ignore it ; ) So again, going through life believing a lie can make life "worse".
Anony then asked: "Wouldn't it be better to beleive then to find out in the end on your death bed that God does really exsist and that you have regrets?"
Yes, yes, we know---believe "just in case", right? Okay, so then shouldn't YOU believe in EVERY God?....just in case you have "faith" in the wrong one?
You're welcomed to try and make it make logical sense if you'd like. Let's hear it.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
WEll all I can say is I hope you will get the sign that you need to prove to you the only God of The Bible exsists. That is what I wish for you to have. And I believe in prayer because of my personal experiences and miracles, In my own way, I will continue to pray for you get one too.
Have a great winter season.
boomSLANG
· 3 years ago
Anony---A schizophrenic might "believe" the CIA implanted a chip in their head, as to keep tabs on their whereabouts at all times. This is their "personal experience". Like the schizo, you are entitled to your personal belief, yet, it says nothing about reality. Prayer is usless. You are wasting your time, hence your life, performing such rituals.
Have a great winter, spring, summer, autumn delusion.
Bentley
· 3 years ago
Proof there is no God, Part II
If God was around before you where born, how come you never talked to God until after you were born?
Do you think your father or mother had Jesus and your eternal salvation on their minds at the exact moment of insemination (your fathers orgasm) into your mother?
The only place a God or Jesus exists is in your mind, you're just repeating things you've heard other monkeys repeat, and by repetition and indoctrination.
Now, I can prove to you that God and Jesus only exists in the conscious living brain, this also all manmade envisioned entities.
1. God and Jesus disappear when you are asleep, (where do they go?)
2. God and Jesus disappear when you are unconscious, (where do they go?)
3. God and Jesus disappear when you're under anesthesia during surgery, (where do they go?)
4. All Gods and saviors disappear when the mind is unconscious.
5. Therefore, all Gods and saviors and manmade entities disappear, when the mind is dead.
6. All the things that you've been told to believe, will disappear when you are dead.
You might as well learn it now, so get over with talking to yourself, and calling it from a God, its just your mind repeating just what it wants yourself to hear.
Shannon
· 3 years ago
Anony 9/22/2006 2:59 PM
I don’t generally express myself with out and out potty language but sometimes… You are speaking of an all-powerful being and all we can expect is a fucking sign? I don’t want a fucking sign, man; I want a tangible-fleshy-in-person greeting. At any time your god feels frisky enough, I’ve got a functioning doorbell.
Although I don’t think I’d like him to come visit anyway; he’s not a ‘person’ I’d really like know. Plain and simple, your god is asshole. Re: If there is someone who can step in (at no risk of his/hers own person) and help someone else who is being raped, murdered, or injured but doesn’t he/she is an asshole.
All your god does is watch.
He watches children starve.
He watches children die of cancer.
He watches children being molested.
He watches children being murdered.
He watches the innocent being used, abused and neglected.
He just watches.
It’s like he’s not there.
It’s like he doesn’t existed at all.
The concept of a loving, benevolent god is not just intellectually bankrupt but it is a full-body insult.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Thank you Shannon!!
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
God doesn't need to show himself to anybody, our world and universe has left fingerprints.
It's automatic, if you don't believe in God, then you must believe we all evolved from something ( how you people argue how something came from nothing, i'll never understand ). But open your eyes, look around.. It's like people are trying to proof a tornado flew through a junkyard, and formed an airport, planes and stores inside. That's how foolish you people are.
Just research the human eye, or heart. They did not come from random process.
I just pray you will not stop searching for God, even if you don't believe.. God wants you to believe in Him, but first you must search.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Evolution: Random processes create life. The universe has existed for 30 billion years, during which time all life evolved by random processes.
Creation: Creating a simple 100 component non-living organism would take 3 billion billion billion billion billion billion billion years. The simplest protein that can be termed "living" has 400 components. ________________________________
Evolution: Sexual reproduction came about by evolution
Creation: Two humans had to evolve at the same time and place, having complementary reproductive systems. If one system wasn't complete or compatible, the species would become extinct. _________________________________
Evolution: Species evolve from other species
Creation: There are no fossils of transitional life forms. Organisms have never been found to cross the boundaries between species
_________________________________ evolution is science fiction, it's man's view on how life started, yet overwhelming evidence points to a creator.
Besides, you've still failed to address the mystery of life, you've only retreated into "we can never understand."
If there is a multi-faceted, incomprehensibly complex "GOD" who made everything, then you're admitting that something extraordinarily complex can simply exist for no presently explainable reason.
I wonder why it is easier to believe there is some unexplainable invisible deity than to simply admit that it is hard to understand nature?
Religious belief is odd.
boomSLANG
· 3 years ago
Evolution: Both theory AND fact.
___________________________
Creationism("magic"): NEITHER.
Next time?... at least vomit scientific fact, instead of apologetic rhetoric . Thanks.
Jim Arvo
· 3 years ago
According to Anonymous, Creationists believe that...
1) Creating a simple 100 component non-living organism would take 3 billion billion ... billion years...
2) Two humans had to evolve at the same time and place, having complementary reproductive systems...
3) There are no fossils of transitional life forms...
If that's the case, then they're a sorry lot. What this illustrates with stunning clarity is how deathly afraid of asking questions they are. If I were in your shoes, Anonymous, I'd want to know where that number of "3 billion billion..." came from. I'd want to know whether scientists really posit that sexual reproduction came about by male and female evolving independently. I want to know whether scientists have identified any transitional forms. Have you seriously asked any of those questions, Anonymous? Truly, I'd like to know. If so, who did you ask? Where did you look for answers?
It seems to me that creationism consists of nothing more than clinging to dogmatic assertions while refusing to learn anything at all about the most fantastically successful enterprise ever undertaken by man: science.
I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer to my questions. If you do come back, I'll be happy to disabuse you of your pervasive misconceptions.
Have a really great weekend.
Patrick
· 3 years ago
So if God exists... then that means Greek Gods, gods of many african, indian, south american tribes, etc., etc. must not exist? So anon, you basically disprove the existance of any of this. So what makes yours right if any? (not promoting devil worship) Wouldn't it make more sense to believe in a satan or devil? There are more sins then good deeds in the world. If you say all of foreign and ancient religions are true along with an almighty god, that wouldn't be very logical (Even though God is illogical enough).
So people of different cultures create their "Gods" and they fight over whos "God" is real. This happens everyday. People die over religion every day. For something they don't even know exists. You can't keep saying that "it's safer to believe than it's not to believe" for an excuse and not giving a good reason or explanation for your God.
Olivia
· 3 years ago
proof??????????
all that is is a bunch of crappy theories from OTHER PEOPLE!!!
as humans we are imperfect, so why are we trusting ourselves to know the meaning of life?
and that argument that everyone keeps saying "Well you can't see the easter bunny either"
DUH!!! the easter bunny is a bunny what means he's made up of MATTER.
if you actually READ the bible [not take random verses out of it that you think proves your little theory] you'll realize that God is a spirit. we can't see spirits; we can see demons and angels though. we are spirits, have souls, and live in a body, whereas God is just a spirit, plain and simple.
the simple truth is this: you either believe or you don't.
if you believe you have hope and know you are going to heaven to live with God forever.
if you don't believe, your life must suck. never knowing what's gonna happen when you die. gosh that would suck. and having all these pleasures in life, but never true bliss. no real hope.
and i see most of you 'nonbelievers' are arguing against the Christian God. how bout you argue against all a million of them. lol.
Bottom line: all of your 'evidence' is so unconvincing. all it is is theories and stereotyping and you keep pulling random verses out of the bible and talk about the tooth fairy, like THAT explains it all.
I WILL BELIEVE YOU WHEN YOU FIND ACTUAL EVIDENCE THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!!!!!
it's been like over 2000 years and people still haven't come up w/ FACTUAL evidence. haaaa it's true. it would be all over the news if there was proof, BUT THERE'S NOT!!!
boomSLANG
· 3 years ago
DUH!!! the easter bunny is a bunny what means he's made up of MATTER.
'Nuff said. ROFLMAO!!!!!!
Jim Arvo
· 3 years ago
Olivia, please provide some proof that Zeus does not exist. Once you see how ridiculous that request is, you might start to appreciate how ridiculous you sound to us.
Bye now.
Randalynn
· 3 years ago
I am new here and have just tonight read through the posts in this section. I would like to respond to several differnet posts by Anon.
First I want to ask you if you believe that it is impossible to lead a moral life without guidance from the Bible?
Do you believe that Athiests are more disposed to wrong doings?
I for one am an Athiest and was raised to be very moral without having to look to a bible. Instead I look to my heart and my mind.
Also you mentioned an experience where you had passed out but were conscious and unable to move your body. You asked if anyone else had experienced this. I have and many times to. It probably happens to me about once a year. Its called Sleep paralysis and it happens to me when I have been dreaming and wake up. I try to move but cannot. I can't lift my arm or move my head. It actually freaks me out a little. But a minute later it passes and I can move again. Here is a definition from Wikipedia:
Sleep paralysis is a condition characterized by temporary paralysis of the body shortly after waking up or, less often, shortly before falling asleep. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
Next you had brought up many times that you think it would be better to just believe in God than not b/c you have everything to gain and nothing to lose. My question is not whether it is better but IS IT REALLY A CHOICE?
I don't ever really recall choosing not to believe in God. I just realized one day that I didn't. (I think I was around thirteen.) To me it didn't make sense not like it did to my friends and family. And when I asked questions to try and make sense of it I only got non explanatory answers.
I can't just close my eyes and say that when I open them I am going to choose to believe in God.
Do you believe that you can choose NOT to believe in God right now and then in the next second you won't?
You believe in God because when you think about God he makes sense and feels true to you on a personal level this is the same reason that I don't belive in God.
This is merely what this entire posting is about. Athiests don't feel that God makes sense. It feels fake and untrue to us. Its not about hating Christians or wanting to spread "diabolical forces".
If God made me than he made me a person who cannot believe in him.
Randalynn
Randalynn
· 3 years ago
The Reason Faith Feels Untrue to Athiests
No one believes in God that there is a God.
Now let me explain this statement. If God came to me personally than I could say that I believe he is real, because he is real.
I could say this because I have experienced him in a way that was real to me.
However there are only a few people in history who claim that they have interacted with him and therefore can believe in him out of firsthand experience.
They believe in God b/c he told/showed them that he was there.
Everyone else has to have "FAITH".
And this is where the above statement comes into play.
No one has faith in God that there is a God.
They have to have faith in whoever told them there is a God, that God is real.
You can believe in the Bible that there is a God. Or a preacher, or your parents that there is a God.
But all of these sources are not divine they are falliable.
So Athiests have mereley asked the question: "Why would I put blind faith in a falliable source?"
This is why so many of us state that if there is a God, and he wants us to believe in him, then he should present himself in a way that would actually result in us believing in him.
This to Christians is an arrogant thing to say. Why should God have to prove himself, that would eliminate the need for faith.
I say no it wouldn't, it would just get that one huge roadblock out of the way. If I knew he was real I would still have to have faith in his "Grand Plan" and that all the suffering in the world has a reason. That he either created evil or allowed it and that for some reason it was needed.
(And for all the Free Will people out there on evil and the devil:
I have a son, I want him to be independent and have Free Will but that does not mean that I would allow him to go about the world doing evil things. If he was torturing, killing and commiting other people to suffer than I would feel morally obligated to stop him.
And if I was omnipotent and could see beforehand that he would cause great suffering than I would choose not to have him.
Sorry got sidetracked. LOL.
I hope this helps to show Christians what Athiests mean when they say that Faith and God doesn't work for them.
And why we feel the need for proof.
Randalynn
Bentley
· 3 years ago
Randalynn I enjoyed your post very much.
This is a key point, "They have to have faith in whoever told them there is a God, that God is real."
Chrustians think, surely this person or the Bible would not mislead them in any way? Their faith and trust lies in other humans, in hopes that they have some kmowledge unbenounced to them,
Yet they are/were misled, and yes by their trusted religious official(s).
Very insightful, keep it coming! Thanks!
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
To the atheists of the world I pose one question plus some additional ones, lol - with regards to the existence of God. Why debate it? If there is no God, why debate it, if there is a God why debate that too. From what I can see you choose to look within and use you’re a meticulous minds to clearly and concisely deliver your answers. In which I have no doubt your minds have evolved and ever so changed and be shaped by what you have learnt since you where born. Have you been exposed to all information out there in the world? Have you processed every last piece of it, from the dawn of man. Can you say this to your self “that I know everything and there is nothing else to be learnt”? How do you know you have seen everything or how do you know that you haven’t seen the proof right before your very own eyes day in and day out and choose simply to ignorant becomes it did not fit into your predetermined notions. Can you trust your judgement if you only believed in what you wanted to see and saw nothing? What kind of world would you like to see? Think about it…. Is seeing - believing, but can we truly trust what we see? Your mind is limited to the confine of the information that fills that space which you call a brain how can you know without a doubt that there is no God? Because someone else said so, has science prove it(not yet, and it never will), because your mind believes there is no God. Think about it for a second if you are basing everything you believe in, solely on the basis on the overwhelming flood of stuff you have heard, read, seen or be told about; pretty much all information that you have collected in your life time. What good is that, if you only flood your mind with stuff that leads you to believe in your own predetermined notions of reality, which where possibly set for you by someone else? Did I hit a nerve yet… keep reading. Great, how about the information that you are not aware of? Lets for the moment say there is proof that God does exist but you to this date have not been exposed to that information. Because you haven’t been exposed to it, does it make it any less real? I know what you are about to say “but there is no proof”. Well you think so, but I want you to think about this really HARD -if there was and you didn’t know about it, does it make it any less real? Another thing to think about as you are starting to be truthful with yourself – WHY SOMETHING and NOT NOTHING? So you can only be a true atheist if you have accumulated all the information and knowledge out there know to man and unknown to man and then come up with the logical conclusion that there is no God. It takes more faith to be an atheist then to believe in God. Since that is impossible for you to do, what are you basing your opinions on? Can they be trusted? In the future do you really what to find out about the existence of God as you stand before him after you die? Because then it’s a little too late. Regardless if you want to believe now or later everyone in this world will come to know and believe in God. But that real choice is where you want to spend the second half of your life with him forever or to be cut off from him. The choice is clearly yours to make. Try this exercise what would you say to a thought in your owned mind, in which this “thought”, tells you, whom thought the it up “that you don’t exist” Ridiculous, so why ask God whom created you to prove to you that he exists. What does that prove? If you truly wanted to see God, he’ll make him self know to you. All you have to do is earnestly ask in Jesus name. Please don’t continue missing the proof set before eyes. Truly seek him and the evidence will be presented to you. Make Jesus the Lord of your life and the truth which you seek will reign in your heart and truly effective you positively forever and ever.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
maybe there is something to this god,i don't want to....but maybe "god" is conscience.....that might be worth worshipping.....i shall read more about your "god" more than i did the first time......i hope i believe
Astreja
· 3 years ago
To the Anonymous of 11/07/2006, 3:32 p.m.:
Why debate the existence of gods? Quite simply, to encourage individuals to question the many ridiculous and harmful mythologies that still plague humanity. A skeptical mind has survival value. A complacent, overly accepting mind is easily controlled and easily destroyed.
Why should I take the time to examine "all information out there in the world"? Most of the world does not, and will not, touch upon my life. I am not interested in learning "the absolute truth" about anything, because relative truth works just fine. I can build an excellent wall with a measuring tape accurate only to 1/16 of an inch. I can bake a cake with inexact amounts of baking powder, and tie my shoelaces differently every single time. Why should I waste my life with the myth of perfection when I can be out there gleefully doing lots of fun things "imperfectly" till the day that I just don't wake up in the morning?
And why should I ask anything in the name of a long-dead and possibly never-existing man?
Dave8
· 3 years ago
Anonymous: "Have you been exposed to all information out there in the world?"
No, but what information out there would be worth listening to? Moreover, how would you choose to validate information presented to you by another person? If you can't answer the question, then you can't validate the information "you" personally, hold, and thus, your entire post becomes speculative to say the least.
Anonymous: "Have you processed every last piece of it, from the dawn of man."
Determine whether or not the elements that make up information are finite/infinite. Define information based on form. Let me know when you're done, and lets see if you can argue that mankind doesn't in "fact" process all form types of data elements that make up information.
Superficial questions, created to stir doubt in others, is the hallmark of ignorance. Anonymous, please, by all means, prove to me, that I haven't processed all informational data types/forms. Prove to me that all form elements have/don't have a common origin.
Your ignorance, doesn't substantiate a reason for me to doubt my knowledge. Prove to me, why my knowledge, has been erroneously developed/clustered based on faulty processing. Care to define the "right" neurological process?
By the way, while you are at it, humanity mentally models reality, it's how we "build" a conscience. And, we are not much different in that aspect than other animalia.
"First Evidence to Show Elephants, Like Humans, Apes And Dolphins, Recognize Themselves in the Mirror By Yerkes National Primate Research Center, Emory University, and the Wildlife Conservation Society" http://healthnewsdigest.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=12&num=4700
Do you know what a mirror is? Can you explain how an ape recognizes themselves in the mirror? What is a conscience? What does it mean to be conscious? Do animals have personalities? How do you know?
If you are capable of answering a number of these questions, please, by all means, come back. If you can't... the knowledge you hold doesn't even allow you to ask the more poignant questions corrctly.
I think it's "almost" humorous that you postulate a question on universal information, without holding universal information... lets see how you do with just plain old information you hold in your memory banks. What makes "your" information, more tenable/valid than anyone elses'?
Randalynn
· 3 years ago
Why debate the existence of God? Well...its kinda fun. I have always liked to debate, I enjoy learning about different view points and accumulating knowledge.
Its the reason people debate anything. You gather as much information as you can, find the answer that you believe is true and then you stand by that answer and defend it.
This is what civilization is built on: the gathering of information so that it can be used to advance society. There will always be people who believe that their way is better than anothers and they will debate passionately for their way to be accepted.
Now as for anonymous' post I always find it cute when someone preaches in a post and then assumes in the end that they have "hit a nerve yet?" and as for "wanting us to think about it really hard," I think that has always been the difference between believers and non believers.
We HAVE thought about it and sorry, it didn't add up. If you want to make a list of Christian beliefs that make sense and ones that don't well ONE side would be really long...
Also as for it taking more faith to be an Athiest than to be a Christian. I don't really get it. Why does it take more faith to believe in a Big Bang than the Big Guy in the Sky? And if you want to know how could the Big Bang start. Well how could God start?
Right now neither science nor faith can answer these questions but at least science gives us the hope of one day knowing.
And besides it encourages people to find answers for themselves.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Well to you science fans out there. I love science as well, I stll belive in a God. You can't ask science to prove the existence of God for science is within God. Its impossible. Have fun, learning the truth, as the truth will set you free. Dont hide form it, welcome it. He's always there with you; all you have to do is to ask and he'll make himself known. It's that easy, or our you afraid if you did and found out then you would have to give something up to believe. My friend the only thing you'll be giving up is your shackles to the lie of sin. Its hard to explain, but it is real. Dont wait to find out, there is not much time left. I dont want to fight with you man out there in world. We are all the childern of God. God does not love me anymore then any of you. We cant buy his love, we can do things to make him loves us more. The love is real, God is real and his son whom he sent to save the world is real. For God Loves you more then you think. You dont have to believe there is a God, but God wants you to know this.... HE LOVES YOU.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Sorry A little typo there I want to make sure I said this right. The post abouve where I said
"We cant buy his love, we can do things to make him loves us more"
It should have read Can't do things to make him loves us more"
See i'm just a reguarly guy like yourself, making mistakes just living my life the best I can, just like you. But I know I sin and I sin on a daily basis. God cant live with sin that is why you can never be good enough by yourself. You need a Redeemer to be your advocate. I dont hate any of you for having your views, I dont know you. If I found a 10 pound piece of Gold wouldn't you want me to tell where I found it. So please dont get upset when you read the stuff I have to say. Its not put out there to offend but it is a gift that I accepted and believe in. You should have the chance to know and to recive for yourself for it is free and waiting for you.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
With God all things are possible!!! Except saving souls, he turned that chore over to a demi-god!
Limey
· 3 years ago
Yeah you've come on the internet looking for souls to be saved. Guess what? We've already found your gold and it turned out otbe worthless a lie a total fabrication and a bucket of shit!!!
Prove to us you're a Christian.
Mark 16:17 Drink poison and handle snakes, then come back and tell us what a great True Christian you really are!!!
Warnepiece
· 3 years ago
Anonymous Fundy posted at 11:02 and 11:10 AM 11-14-06 “You can't ask science to prove the existence of God for science is within God.”
Okay, I won’t ask science to, I’ll ask YOU to. Without any reference to your bible, show us evidence of the Christian god. Any time in the next few minutes would be fine.
The shackles you refer to are the ones you keep on your brain to prevent rational thinking. Again, without referencing your bible, because that is the ONLY place it exists, what “sin” are you talking about?
No problem not believing in the Christian god. I don’t.
You aren’t a regular guy like us. First, there are several ladies who regularly post here as well, but most importantly, you’re a narrow-minded fundamentalist who thinks he has the BIG answer to bring all of us poor lost souls back to his Christian god…just believe. Just believe the whole Christian fairy tale is real, and it will become real.
Tell you what Tinkerbelle, to keep from saying something really obscene to you, I’ll just say…HAR-HAR-HARDY-HAR-HAR!!!
.:webmaster:.
· 3 years ago
I think one of the strangest by-products of belief in a god is the conviction on the part of believers that they actually speak for a god.
Would we expect gods to have generally bad syntax?
"I'm not arrogant, I'm humble! Oh, and God wants me to tell you..."
Alan
· 3 years ago
Anonymous wrote:
You can't ask science to prove the existence of God for science is within God.
Anonymous, you absolutely can ask science to prove the existence of God. The studies that have been done, like the Harvard prayer study, have not produced any evidence whatsoever of God's existence. Most religious people think God is an active force that causes or influences events here on Earth, if that is true then we can examine these effects in a scientific way, just like any other phenomena. Unless of course you think science doesn't really describe reality, in which case you are free to read the Bible instead of seeking medical care next time you are sick, or you think everything around us is an illusion, in which case you are free to step in front of a bus and see what happens.
Jim Arvo
· 3 years ago
Have you ever noticed that the folks who implore us to "Think REALLY HARD" are nearly always the ones who exhibit very little capacity for thinking themselves?
Anonymous, your entire essay is testimony to the fact that you know almost nothing about which you speak. You make completely ridiculous assertions about what an atheist must believe, apparently because you've never bothered to ask an atheist what they believe. So, let's get a few things straight, shall we?
I am an atheist. Does that mean I have examined every corner of the universe looking for god? No. What I have done is to examine the claims that humans have made regarding this hypothetical being, and I've done so earnestly and methodically for decades. In absolutely EVERY case that I have examined, the reasoning is fallacious and the data is unreliable; in fact, in the VAST MAJORITY of the cases, the fallacies are both numerous and blatant, and the data is virtually nonexistent. Therefore, I reject the extraordinary claims that religionists make.
But wait, there's more. YOU TOO do this very same thing (albeit less methodically, I'll wager). You have rejected Zeus, presumably because there is nothing to support the idea of his existence. You probably harbor no belief in Mithra, Osiris, Isis, or Attis, despite the legions of people who have earnestly worshiped them and built temples to them, and I'll bet you haven't even tried to examine the evidence for their existence. Don't forget, simply being IGNORANT of the evidence doesn't make it go away, right? There might be "proof" of one or more of these deities, you just haven't found it yet. I guess that means you had better believe in them all, just in case, right? Or will you continue to be an atheist, like us, with respect to those deities?
Now, if the foolishness of your position is not yet starkly evident, come on back and we can walk you through it step by step. Be prepared to defend your LACK of belief in Zeus, Mithra, Osiris, etc., because you need to answer to every single argument that YOU have raised thus far in defense of your chosen deity.
Good day.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Hello Man and women. I see that you are getting very upset. Why. If you are so secure in the knowledge that I’m so wrong why would you get so upset and get so angry. I tell what is really happening within you. If you truly want to know why you are getting very angry and enraged to what I say it is because the Holy Spirit of God is convicting you to the truth. There is my proof. You can say all you want that I'm wrong about what I just said about you on this post. But when you lye there by yourself thinking to yourself you really know what has been happening to you. I don’t need to drink poison or handle snakes to prove I'm Christian. I can prove it by simply saying this. Jesus is my Lord and Saviour, He died and arouse again on the third day. Without him, I’m nothing. Like I said before I don’t want to offend and I don’t want to cause you to be angry but examine where that anger is coming from and truly seek him. He'll make himself known. If you want. GOD wants you to know, no matter what you think or say HE LOVES YOU. Feel his spirit, its TRUE, dont push away, accept it. Can you feel it at the core. You can, you can feel it, that why you are geeting so upset. Cause as you write I pray for you. Casue I love you as childern of the most high. Please see that feeling for what it really is. Open your heart eyes to the truth. Till the next post God bless you
Jim Arvo
· 3 years ago
Anonymous, I can sense the anger and frustration that you must be feeling. It's very telling, as it's a sign that you are struggling mightily to defend a weak position. It's troubling to be surrounded by people who were brave enough to look at the emperor and observe that he is without a stitch of clothing. You no doubt sense that we are right, and you would be posting your own testimony of deconversion here were it not for the emotional baggage that binds you to your beliefs. That's okay. It takes time. But first try to come to grips with the anger and the bitterness that are clouding your judgment. Once you can face the facts squarely, it becomes much easier. Best of luck on your deconversion.
(This psychoanalysis session has been provided free of charge.)
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Hi, I can’t say it in words. But I'm truly not upset or moved in anyway to what you have to say to me. For me to say I don't have my moments of doubts would be a lie. But I'll tell you this at these moments of doubts that I have they are brought on not by any disbelief that there is no God, but in my own weakness as a human being. I’m a person that is not humbled, I get angry, and some times I’m mean person when I shouldn’t be. But I’m a person, a person that needs my God to save me. I know what you are all thinking; what a whimp what a weakling, he needs to believe in something that isn’t there for him to get himself through his day. To which I say YES you are right, but it’s not in something that is not there, it’s to a God who loves me and is more real to me then you and people around me. I’m a sinner, I’m a weak person, and I’ll never be good enough to dwell with my God. But I’m not worry about this at all and that’s why he is so amazing. In my weakness he still cared enough to send someone to rescue me and care for me. I tell you the truth, my life has became a lot harder since I became a Christian. I have lost a lot for this Truth, but nothing and I say nothing that I have lost is worth one second to the reality of being cut off from God for entirety because I said No Thanks to a free gift. I’ll never deny the fact and it is a Fact that Jesus came to save all. Guys, I already know I’m not greatest of all speakers or my Grammar is not that great and I know I can’t spell. But it doesn’t change the fact to what you are all feeling.
.:webmaster:.
· 3 years ago
Question: Why. If you are so secure in the knowledge that I’m so wrong why would you get so upset and get so angry.
Conclusion: Then you are nothing, because He doesn't exist.
Manic raving: no matter what you think or say HE LOVES YOU.
Sarcastic response: And if I don't love HIM back, HE's going to fry my ass in the most sadistic torture chamber imaginable. HE'll never let me die or escape. I will be cruelly and mercilessly tormented forever!
Reminds me of my first wife.
Warnepiece
· 3 years ago
Anonymous,
Here, here is your blankey, and here, put the thumb back into your mouth. There!
*suck*suck*suck*
That's all better now isn't it? Just think of it as your "Jesus" thumb. Cram it in your mouth and everything will be alright.
*suck*suck*suck****
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Web master - What is this link you want to send me on. Below is the link that you posted "Answer Clik here"
You dont want to be nice and fry my computer cause I say things you can't handle. Come on play nicely now. We are just talking. I think you are a very smart man. You are a better speaker then I. I just want to tlak and have the same right you all love as much as I do.
Jim Arvo
· 3 years ago
Okay, Anonymous. We'll look for your deconversion story here in a few months. Let us know if we can be of any help.
Bye now.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Well I see the web master found it fit to remove 2 of my post. Well if you want to take away my right to speak frelly so be it. I guess I'll post else where. Have a good day, May God coutinue to bless you and I hope for the best for everyone that has written in these posts
boomSLANG
· 3 years ago
Fundonymous: I’m a sinner, I’m a weak person, and I’ll never be good enough to dwell with my God.
"Weak" and "a sinner"....and yet, you were "made in the image of God". Hmmmmm... 'sounds like a love-connection to me. Best wishes to the both of you.
Limey
· 3 years ago
With God, all things are possible!!
Except God cannot save souls, he needs a demi-god to do that for him!
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
the problem the other of this piece has and all of the people writing here is that they are mainly using a distorted christian view of god i am personally agnostic at this point and never was or will be christian the author does not understand the nature of a thheoretical god god would be a being without any physical attributes all descriptions of god are not real just metaphors for certain actions god "did" how can you ask how can god allow evil your defining evil in your own terms in order to disproove god maybe what you percieve as bad is part of pefection of the universe the going with the simpler answer is used but is not a proof god not being able to create a rock he cannot pick up is also ridiculis since god is not physical and therefore there are no imposibilities you can phathom that god cant do ancient religions that saw god as a woman since she creates life is not better than making god a man they are both ridiculis for a non physical being I suggest reading guide to the perplexed by maimonides you do not no god by what he does since you cannot no him but rather by negative knowledege you can say what he is not for instanse god is not big
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
a problem the author has with his proofs are that he took what people said as neccesity for a proof in god and assumes without good analysis that these questions actually show paradoxes
eistein was saying since god created the universe in aperfect and complex manner understanding the universe helped him see the greatness of god and brought him to an apreciation of a creator
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
you people make dumb assumptions that earth being habitable is such a small possibility what you dont realize is that according to the theory of evolution if earth were 2000 degrees and full of methan its very possible an orgism with the ability to survive would crop up earth is the only inhabitable planet for people because they evolved into being able to live in the conditions of earth not some coincidince that earth needed to be this exact temp with this amount of oxygen this is what we evolved into being able to live in
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Hi & good day from a Muslim,
Quran:"And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little."(Children of Israel 17.85)
Dear colleagues, once you find out the “substance” of spirit/soul then you’ll find out what God does mean!!, the top now we can reach is a Pentium 4, 5 whatever .., it couldn’t be compared to an Alive bug !! However if u don’t feel satisfied being a Christian or Jewish, then just take a deep look to what Islam means.., it’s not Ignorance, neither Backwardness.. it about freedom and total confidence !!
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
Hi & good day from a Muslim,
Quran:"And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little."(Children of Israel17.85)
Dear colleagues, once you find out the “substance” of spirit/soul then you’ll find out what God does mean!!, the top now we can reach is a Pentium 4, 5 whatever .., it couldn’t be compared to an Alive bug !! However if u don’t feel satisfied being a Christian or Jewish, then just take a deep look to what Islam means.., it’s not Ignorance, neither Backwardness.. it about freedom and total confidence !!
Wes
· 3 years ago
>> Hi & good day from a Muslim,
Quran:"And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little."(Children of Israel17.85)
Dear colleagues, once you find out the “substance” of spirit/soul then you’ll find out what God does mean!!, the top now we can reach is a Pentium 4, 5 whatever .., it couldn’t be compared to an Alive bug !! However if u don’t feel satisfied being a Christian or Jewish, then just take a deep look to what Islam means.., it’s not Ignorance, neither Backwardness.. it about freedom and total confidence !! >>
You've got to be joking. So, you really think we're going to dump one bogus religion and then join another?? Har har! Barking up the wrong tree, my friend! -Wes.
john the disbeliever
· 3 years ago
I am so irraitated with all the changes to the churhes and the wars of religion in which there is no proof, only faith. What is going on? Who cares if there is a god anymore, i just dont want to be killed by somebody thinking its God's will. That is a more "to the minute problem"... Everyone should believe what makes them happy. Whatever, i just can't take all the B.S. about religion and god, people trying to recruit my kids to relgion by offering free bike give aways, come on. I think that the world need to step back and look at the distruction in the name of religion and figure out, "hey. WTF?" I offer no answers or theories but i do know i dont beileve in this crap, and i beilieve when i do die, i will rot and that will be it, there will be no answers revealed to me, so why waste my time. Other than the fact that everyone is into religion and it puts damoers on my life and how i thinki should live it. what I think is wrong or right. Not what Moses says. give me a break, thanks for reading
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
ok people if you say there is a god then who created him? He didn't just appear out of nowhere. Religion is some thing for people to believe in so that they don't feel alone in the universe,and so they can have rules about how life should be. oh ya and the world isn't going to end you idots until our sun dies, or we kill each other by our own doing. just think if there wasn't religion there would be no war.
Royal Snow
· 2 years ago
"Matter cannot be created or destroyed" Law of conservation of mass. Did you see that its a LAW. That means its a fact. Thats all the proof you need. I'm 15 and I just disproved that there is a god. Easy as 1 2 3... Its a hard fact to face and It takes some time but face it. There are no Gods. There is only us. Live for today not the <a href="mailto:"afterlife"
sertyopklopklop@aim.com">"afterlife"
sertyopklopklop@aim.com
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
for those of you who want to wait till He returns to believe, go ahead. i'm a firm believer in God and in the redemptive work Christ did on the cross. we the church have not lived as we ought before God and so we have brought insult to His name. some of you left the Faith because of that, some of you saw the hypocrisy and so on and left. did any of you try to live in a manner more pleasing to God/in the way you thought Christians ought to live or did you simply leave the Faith?
it is one thing to note hypocrisy but to then do nothing about it makes you no better, in fact, you are just as guilty.
Warnepiece
· 2 years ago
Oh, of course!!! No one ever thought of THAT before, Anonymous….
Just quote a bible verse and we’ll all realize the error of our ways!
And the icing on the christian cake is, point out how we’re not living our lives like christians!
…All those past foolish christians who came here prior to this latest anonymous. Tsk, tsk!
How could all the other fundamentalists and bible-thumping busybodies have missed it?
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
Arguments in response to your thesis from a servant of Christ:
--->The theodicé problem
Indeed, God cannot be almighty if He is limited by any characteristic or trait. God is indeed greater than all things. Christ said, "All things are possible with God." This means God has no limitations. He is not even limited by good or evil.
However, God is good. So how can we say both? Quite obviously, because God chose to be good. He chose to limit Himself. The way God did this is by giving birth to a Son. In God's son is the embodiment of all that God is. In Hebrews 1:3, it says that the son is "the exact representation of His nature." Though all things are possible for God, He chose His Son to be the representation of His nature.
The birth of God's Son occurred at the beginning of creation before anything else. It was the very first event. The bible says "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth."
--->The ontological evidence against gods
There are two reasons why God does not answer prayer, and why this reasoning fails. 1) A person prays to the wrong God. 2) The person is not in a right relationship with God. They have sinned against God. If a person has wronged God, why should He answer?
If a person approaches the throne of God and has not been reconciled of sin, God would have no choice but to execute justice. When God does not answer a prayer, it is out of mercy.
--->The meaning of the word existence
God gives existence to all things. God is the unchangeable "I AM." However, everything else changes. Everything else is variable. Because God never changes and is always the same, everything else can have a basis for existence. Otherwise, based upon the definition of existence, nothing really exists. There is nothing of which we can relate that does not change.
God has given of Himself to provide existence to all things. We exist because God exists. If God did not exist, what basis would we have to exist? Could we even say that we exist?
--->Occam's razor
God is not merely the reason for all things, but a necessary reason. Many people in the field of science say that God is not a viable explanation. However, what many in science don't realize is that they need God or else science becomes obsolete.
The entire basis of science is math, logic, and experimentation. A scientist studies the universe looking for explanations of how it works. What a scientist discovers is natural principles at work governing the universe. This natural order is measured in the language of mathematics. The entire universe follows this language.
Within the universe is a certain rational. The scientist goes about studying on this basis: that everything has a logical explanation. We can say everything has a logical explanation because the universe is based upon God's Word which is filled with wisdom (logic and reasoning).
If the universe were random, then we would not expect everything to have a logical explanation. Rather, everything would be random. A person may ask, "why does an apple fall off a tree?" In a random universe, the answer would be: "because it is random." However, science does not accept such a proposition. Science says, "There must be a reason. The reason is gravity."
And so, science needs God as the basis for all reason in the universe, or else science is obsolete. Without God, all things merely occur randomly. And so, if there is no God, there is no rational explanation for anything.
--->Some things are impossible to do:
God set forth His Word to be the supreme authority governing all things. His Word bears wisdom. It has a particular logic that governs all things. We can easily see through science that all things follow a particular logic. This has been established by God's Word.
Indeed, there are things impossible to do. This is because God has established His Word as the supreme authority over all things. God's Word is absolute and does not change.
However, God is greater than His Word. He will always be greater than His Word. He is in control of His Word. This means that if God wants to walk on water, He can do so freely without upsetting anything. He is the one in control. There is no contradiction here.
--->Omnipotence is impossible due to paradoxes
Free will is not free choice. God has given free will to men. However, God has not given men the freedom to do whatever they want. Inside, we may want to fly, however, does that mean we can fly?
Many people confuse free will with free action. We do not have free choice. We have free will. We have the freedom to believe whatever we want. We can believe in Santa Claus. We can believe in anything. We can even believe there is no God, when there is really is a God. The fact that you can sit and say "there is no God" is because God gave you that freedom.
In addition, our beliefs are based upon things we have learned. For instance, we believe in Santa Clause because it originated from a person that actually lived. However, the concept of God is not based upon anything we could have imagined. God is beyond anything we know. Thus, the only way we could ever conceive of God is if we actually had interacted with Him at one point in the past. If God had never existed, we would never know. We would not be arguing over God because we could not have imagined Him.
--->We would never notice god
Again, the problem here is that the author does not know about God's Son. God is above and beyond all things. He is greater space and time. Being this is true, how then can we know God? He is beyond us. If God does interact with the world, like he says, then God would change all things, not one thing.
God gave birth to a Son. This Son is the image of God. Through this Son, we may know God and interact with God.
As far as prayer is concerned, the author doesn't know the purpose of prayer. We do not pray to God in order to influence God. God does not change and if He changed according to our desire, the world would be evil just as we are evil. Rather, prayer is about being united with God as one. When we pray, we are to pray "in the name" of Christ. When we pray, we are sharing in the person of God. We are sharing in all that God is. We are asking God for things He has already planned on giving us. The purpose of prayer is not to get. This is a selfish point of view. It is to give. True prayer is the acknowledgment of God. It is saying, "I love you God."
The author says, "Do it yourself." However, this is an ignorant statement. The author is telling people to act in ignorance. God knows all things. We only know what we see through our narrow vision. We cannot possibly know all the ramifications of our actions. However, if we pray to God and allow God to work in us, then God can control us. This means our actions will be based upon God who is supremely good and knows all things. However, if we act independently of God, then we will most likely cause harm. Hence, why the earth is suffering from things like global warming. The earth is dying because humans have acted independently relying on themselves rather than God.
--->Nobody really believes in god
Faith that is blind is no faith at all. When we are a child, we might believe in Santa Claus waiting all night for him to come. When he doesn't show, we realize our faith was false. As such, we never had faith to begin with.
My faith is not dependent on me. In many religions, people believe in God because they believe. Their faith is dependent on them. Just like the child who believed in Santa Claus. All faith needs to have evidence. Even the writer of Hebrews said in verse 11:1, "Faith is the evidence of things unseen." True faith is not blind. True faith has evidence.
The Christian faith is based upon a God who saves His people from their sins. The work of Christ in the lives of sinners is the evidence for faith. When we call out to Jesus to save us from our sins, and He does save us, then our faith is proven.
My faith is proven. When I called upon Christ to save me, He saved me. I was a smoker, drinker, fornicator, blasphemer and more. I was suicidal and depressed. Christ changed me. I no longer do any of those things because Jesus saved me. I now have an abundant life.
God is an active part of my life. He is with me. If you could live with me for a time, you would see this is true. You would see Jesus working in my life.
--->Epilogue
There is reasonable cause to believe in God. For anyone to say there is no God is only foolishness. A person says there is no God because they want to be in control of themselves. They want to be their own God. They don't want to believe in God because if they did believe in God, they would have to give an account to God for all the wrong they have committed.
If anyone wants a reasonable cause to believe in Jesus Christ, look at the condition of humanity. We need help. We need a savior. We are hopeless. We need a God who can redeem us and make us new.
Only the fool says, "We don't need any help. We can do it ourselves." All I can say in response to this is: keep trying. Let me know how it goes.
However, for anyone who is spiritually sick and needs a doctor, Jesus Christ is alive.
by Blake Kidney
Astreja
· 2 years ago
To Blake:
The birth of God's Son occurred at the beginning of creation before anything else.
Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)
There are two reasons why God does not answer prayer...
You forgot #3: The god doessn't actually exist and is therefore not capable of answering prayers.
God gives existence to all things. God is the unchangeable "I AM."
Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)
If God did not exist, what basis would we have to exist? Could we even say that we exist?
Hey, I'm right here. Obviously I do have a basis for my existence. It isn't necessarily the god that you worship, though.
God is not merely the reason for all things, but a necessary reason... What many in science don't realize is that they need God or else science becomes obsolete.
This "necessary being" business always struck me as a bit silly. Even if you can prove a necessary "first cause", you're nowhere near proving that the "necessary" is a sentient being, let alone the god of the Bible. Prove the necessity before you go any further here.
...Everything has a logical explanation because the universe is based upon God's Word which is filled with wisdom (logic and reasoning).
Are you positive that absolutely everything *must* have a logical explanation? If so, please use logic to explain where your alleged god came from.
If the universe were random, then we would not expect everything to have a logical explanation. Rather, everything would be random.
The universe is not "random." It is based on physical laws which are, in turn, based on the properties of physical elements such as electrons, photons and other minuscule particles. Things that are alike enough to be classified as such will share various properties and exhibit phenomenae that we later classify as forms of energy. For example, if enough electron-type particles move thisaway or thataway, an electric charge manifests. No deities are required.
You're also running afoul of the anthropic principle here: Life appears non-random to us *only* because we happen to reside in a life-supporting region of a massive and disorganized universe. I don't know if "life" exists in more chaotic areas. Perhaps it does; and perhaps we would not even recognize it as life because of perceptual biases.
God set forth His Word to be the supreme authority governing all things.
Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)
God gave birth to a Son. This Son is the image of God.
Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)
My faith is proven. When I called upon Christ to save me, He saved me. I was a smoker, drinker, fornicator, blasphemer and more. I was suicidal and depressed. Christ changed me.
Many people have done these things without the help of your god. I am of the opinion that you inspired your own resolve with the Jesus story, and saved yourself.
If anyone wants a reasonable cause to believe in Jesus Christ, look at the condition of humanity. We need help. We need a savior.
Like the one who's supposedly coming back to destroy the world? No, thanks.
.:webmaster:.
· 2 years ago
Of all the things Blake copied and pasted here, I like this one regarding unanswered prayer the best: 2) The person is not in a right relationship with God. They have sinned against God. If a person has wronged God, why should He answer?
Ultimately, if your prayer isn't answered, it's your own fault.
That is the coldest and most callous doctrine in Christianity and is responsible for given untold heartache to Christian parents with sick and dying children.
Blake, you are an ass.
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
Dear Astreja,
Considering your post, I don't think anything would lead you to believe God exists. As such, there is no point in arguing with you.
However, I would like to point out one thing. You said, "The universe is not 'random.'"
I would have to say that I agree. The universe is not random. However, if the universe is not random and did not occur by mere chance, then this would mean that there is an intelligence behind it.
So, do you believe God exists or not? How can you say the universe is not random, and then say there is no God?
Lastly...
I am of the opinion that you inspired your own resolve with the Jesus story, and saved yourself.
Proof please?
Thanks, Blake
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
Quote: "They don't want to believe in God because if they did believe in God, they would have to give an account to God for all the wrong they have committed."
Quote: "Ultimately, if your prayer isn't answered, it's your own fault.
That is the coldest and most callous doctrine in Christianity and is responsible for given untold heartache to Christian parents with sick and dying children."
Thank you for proving my point. The problem is not an intellectual one, it is a moral one. Who is greater, you or God?
If a child is sick and dying, and God has allowed it, then it serves a purpose. We do not know everything or see the entire puzzle or equation. We can only see the sick and dying child. We cannot see the ramifications of this on a large scale. In our ignorance, we say, "It's wrong and unfair." But who are we to say such a thing?
God created the human body. He certainly can raise it and repair it. He has that control. However, God has given up His right to control a person's heart. He cannot force you to believe anything.
In the grand scale of things, God allows evil and suffering to exist in order to help people see the need for God. He has done this in order to help them believe.
In the garden of Eden, life was all happiness and flowers. That didn't satisfy Adam and Eve. They still wanted more.
A good father never spoils a child. If a father gave his daughter everything she wanted, she would become extremely selfish. However, if a father allowed her to suffer some, she would learn and grow. A good father disciplines his children.
In my life I have suffered many things and God has allowed it. I do not enjoy suffering, but I would never trade in my sufferings. In each, I learned valuable things that helped shape me and mold me.
God values suffering. In a world without God, life is meaningless. Suffering is meaningless. However, God is Holy and full of meaning. He values all suffering. Jesus Christ suffered on the cross in immense agony. He did this willingly. It was His choice. Why would He do such a thing?
God is good. We cannot understand all His ways, but He is good. The problem is with us. A person who truly trusted in God would have faith in Him. They would believe that even though they suffer it is for a greater good they cannot understand. However, a person with no faith would approach God in anger, "Why would you let my child die?!!"
One day, those questions will be answered. Each person will be rewarded their fair portion. The question you must ask yourself is where will you be when that happens?
Of course, it is easier to believe God doesn't exist. Then you don't have to be accountable.
Blake
Warnepiece
· 2 years ago
Reading Blake’s posts confirms everything that is wrong with Christianity. Fundamentalists like Blake have a One-Size-Fits-All answer to everything, no thinking required.
Blake wrote “If a child is sick and dying, and God has allowed it, then it serves a purpose. We do not know everything or see the entire puzzle or equation. We can only see the sick and dying child. We cannot see the ramifications of this on a large scale. In our ignorance, we say, "It's wrong and unfair." But who are we to say such a thing?”
See, no explanation is needed - God allows it and it serves his purpose, so who are we to judge? By using Blake’s logic, I don’t see why we even need hospitals; everything that happens is just God’s will, so nothing we mortals do will make any difference. May as well just send these kids home to die with the comforting knowledge that they are serving God’s purpose by suffering so terribly. I don’t know what lesson Blake thinks anyone will learn but Blake alludes to a One-Size-Fits-All-Answer – “It’s the mystery of God”.
In one of Blake’s earlier posts he made this claim: “God has not given men the freedom to do whatever they want. Inside, we may want to fly, however, does that mean we can fly?
I don’t know about where you like Blake but I can go over to my neighborhood airport, climb into a Cessna 172R and take off. I have the skills and the freedom to do it, so yes, I can fly.
But maybe you are actually suggesting that if we weren’t born with the physical capability, then god didn’t mean for us to do it. (I guess having the intelligence to accomplish it by other means doesn’t count.) Since our bodies were not born with the capacity to travel in space, we should abandon the space program. After all, God didn’t give us the ability to exist outside of the thin shell that protects us on this planet. Nor do we have the physical capabilities to dive very deep in the ocean. Using Blake’s clear, God-inspired logic, those submariners are acting against the will of god.
This is probably just a waste of time pointing these things out to Blake, because there is another One-Size-Fits-All excuse Blake will most likely fall back on for why I fail to understand, “Satan has blinded me”.
.:webmaster:.
· 2 years ago
Blake wrote: "If a child is sick and dying, and God has allowed it, then it serves a purpose. We do not know everything or see the entire puzzle or equation. We can only see the sick and dying child. We cannot see the ramifications of this on a large scale. In our ignorance, we say, "It's wrong and unfair." But who are we to say such a thing?"
And that's what religious absolute thinking brings. A child's death is good! Everything is good!
Who needs medicine? If the Lard wants the child dead, well then who are we to argue.
Pathetic. Thank reason that the Blakes of the world are somewhat marginalized in the public domain. We don't need another ignorant Dark Ages under the absolute tyrant of Christianity.
Blake wrote: "In a world without God, life is meaningless."
How is a world where the only purpose is to be a god's play toy more meaningful than a world without a god? My life has meaning because a deity wants my worship? Your life is worthless unless you have a god to worship?
Who makes this nonsense up? Why would any swallow this lunacy?
I don't care if there is a god or a dog, my life is quite meaningful to me. I'm sorry you have to find an invisible friend to make your life worth living.
Wow.
Blake, you rambled on and on about the value of suffering, and then you throw out that people don't believe in your God so they don't have to be accountable?
WTF? I am accountable to my boss at work, my wife, my kids, my parents, the government, my neighbors, my creditors... I am so damned accountable that I need an accountant to keep track of it all.
I don't believe in your mythological, torture-loving, invisible despot in the sky, because the whole idea of an all-good, omni-powerful being that thinks inflicting pain and suffering is GOOD is hideously perverse.
There is no God. I challenge you to contact this ridiculous God of yours and have him strike me dead tonight! Is that too hard for HIM? Well then ask him, plead with him, beg him, and flagellate yourself as a sacrifice to him, so that this website will be shut down! Do it as a sign to all that THY GOD REIGNS!
It won't happen, Blake, because your god doesn't exist anywhere except in your imagination.
Astreja
· 2 years ago
Dear Astreja, Considering your post, I don't think anything would lead you to believe God exists.
Probably not. In my nearly fifty years on this planet, I have seen no credible evidence for the Biblical god.
I would have to say that I agree. The universe is not random. However, if the universe is not random and did not occur by mere chance, then this would mean that there is an intelligence behind it.
No, not necessarily. Structure does not require intelligence or sentience. It merely requires a consistent aggregation of smaller structures. Put ten pennies on a table and arrange them into a triangle, and you will see what I mean. Or, alternatively, mix a lot of salt or sugar in a jar of water and dangle a piece of string in the liquid. Crystals will form all by themselves. They do this because the molecules just happen to fit together in nice patterns.
So, do you believe God exists or not?
No, I do not believe in a creator-god of any sort. I believe that god-like beings are possible, but with relatively limited and localized powers. And I have yet to prove the existence of any such beings, even the ones that I personally would like to exist. They inhabit my own imagination, and manifest through my own actions or not at all.
I definitely do not believe in the all-powerful deity described in the Bible. In my opinion, that god exhibits primarily alpha-human traits and was probably imagined up by the priests of some Mesopotamian ruling elite. It simply does not conform to what my intuition tells me a god would be like.
"I am of the opinion that you inspired your own resolve with the Jesus story, and saved yourself." Proof please?
Purely subjective and anecdotal on my part, hence my disclaimer "I am of the opinion that..." I myself, and other people that I know, have improved our lives without calling for religious intervention. If we could do it, it just makes sense that you could have done as we did.
.:webmaster:.
· 2 years ago
Oh, Blake...
I'm still here.
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
" I challenge you to contact this ridiculous God of yours and have him strike me dead tonight!
Why would I spend so much of my time debating with you if I wanted you dead? Only a fool would waste their time. I only write these things because I care. I would dare not pray such a thing. You are alive this very day because God wants you alive.
"Well then ask him, plead with him, beg him, and flagellate yourself as a sacrifice to him, so that this website will be shut down! Do it as a sign to all that THY GOD REIGNS!"
As for your website, I will pray. I will pray that the Lord will shut down your website for a time. However, it will be brought back and you will be the one to say "My God reigns."
In the name of Jesus Christ, Blake
.:webmaster:.
· 2 years ago
In the name of Allah, the Easter Bunny, and the Flying Spagetti Monster, may all your dreams come true.
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
You know, there's one thing I do not understand: why don't you want to believe in God? Why do you want to find true evidence to his non-existence? What is your problem with this all faith stuff? Is your life better or easier without faith? Do you want to know what I think? You fear. In the depths of your heart you fear that there may be a god and you'll be punished for your sins. You try to find an evidence (and all the bullshit in the article is NOT evidence) to ease your fear. I have no problem in my life due to my faith. I follow the Christian teachings and I have no problem. If you have problems following the Christian teachings you surely have done very hard sins in your life. That's why you HOPE there's no God above... And OK, let's say you are absolutely pure and others, just don't want to believe in God... let me say something: There are 4 possibilities: 1: God doesn't exist and you do not believe. Then there's no problem at all. 2:God doesn't exist but you believe he does. Then you live a good life without sins then die. Is it a problem? 3: God exists and you believe. Congrats, Heaven awaits! 4:God exists but you do NOT belive. You suck..............
Then, which is the best option? Undoubtly the way of faith. You have nothing to lose.
Oh, and one thing. The author of the article missed something: God is not about understanding. You're (we're) too stupid to understand. He's about faith. Of course I'm curious too about everything he wrote. You know what? I'll ask God after I died.
Jeff
· 2 years ago
No one was born with a knowledge of ghosts, Gods, spirits, Jesus, Allah Santa, your language, etc, etc.
All beliefs and your language come through mimicking what is taught by other humans only.
Now to prove to you or anyone, that neither a God nor a Jesus exists, all beliefs taught to you, disappear when you go to sleep, they disappear when you are unconscious, they disappear when you are under anesthesics, they disappear when you are dead, so this proves 100% that all things learned while your brain is conscious, suddenly disappears when your brain is either dead or unconscious.
Imagine all people removed from the Earth, God and Jesus and all Gods and myths suddenly disappear, Where do they go? They do not exist, they exist only in the conscious mind. Gods and myths are only from the fabrication of the human mind.
I challenge anyone to prove my statement in Bold above, to be wrong or untrue!
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
science is right there is no "god".and if there were a "god" witch one would you belive in there is plenty "Zeus","buddha" and much much more! think about it!
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
If "god" created every thing because every must have been created then "god" must have been created if "god" was created he is not "god" if he was not not created everything must not have a creator therefore why should life have one!
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
True statement i am no longer a christian! and i am proud of it now i can have some fun!
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
science is right there is no "god" just like there is no "Zeus" or "Buddha"!
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
Not that I did believe in a god (And if I were to, I would also believe that there is not a hell and that you merely learn from your mistakes when you enter 'heaven', but that's another story), but I tested your theory stating that if you pray that god reveal himself in a week.
Now let me state that I really let myself go on this one and let myself believe that there actually is a god while I was praying.
I used a 3 minute approach because it's all the same anyway. Well I relieved that I am still here, no evidence, and still know that religion is bunk. I just can't believe that I allowed myself to believe for all of 3 minutes... what a waste.
Good refresher though!
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
If god loves everyone and will forgive you for your sins, then when you die you will be forgiven. So I must disagree with the 4 premises. Hence here is the TRUE premises
1) God does not exist + You do not believe = nothing happens 2) God does not exist + You believe = given you don't pester people about their personal beliefs, no harm done 3) God DOES exist + you do believe = you go to heaven 4) God DOES exist + you DON'T believe = you STILL go to heaven
hence, why waste your time?
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
God is VERY REAL...I'm not gonna come on here and try to sugarcoat it either.... what have u got to lose if u belive in God?? If u don't believe in God, and u find out there is 1, you'll be sorry!! Plus, god is AWESOME and he loves EVERYONE!! You people that don't believe in him are basically slapping Him in the face reapeatedly, but He STILL LOVES U....DOESN'T THAT TELL U SOMETHING?? WHO DO U KNOW THAT WILL LOVE U NO MATTER WHAT???!! THERE'S NO1 LIKE THAT, NO MATTER WHAT U THINK/SAY!! I say u give God a try for about a month, and if u don't like Him, the Devil will be GLAD to take u back and destroy ur life, and trick u and cause u pain... and etc. need i say more?? :)
Astreja
· 2 years ago
Today's "Anonymous" said...
God is VERY REAL...
Prove it. You can start by asking your god to heal a few thousand amputees. Should be a cakewalk for an all-powerful being, right?
what have u got to lose if u belive in God??
My self-respect and countless hours of time that would be better spent elsewhere.
If u don't believe in God, and u find out there is 1, you'll be sorry!! Plus, god is AWESOME and he loves EVERYONE!!
Explain the contradiction in the above statement, please. Also explain why we should be afraid of *your* god but not worry about other religions and their gods and their version of hell. I understand that the Islamic hell is even nastier than the Christian version.
You people that don't believe in him are basically slapping Him in the face reapeatedly, but He STILL LOVES U....DOESN'T THAT TELL U SOMETHING??
WHO DO U KNOW THAT WILL LOVE U NO MATTER WHAT???!!
I have eight cats. :-) And, unlike your god, they don't threaten to burn me for all eternity. (They do, however, keep my feet warm on cold winter nights.)
I say u give God a try for about a month, and if u don't like Him, the Devil will be GLAD to take u back and destroy ur life, and trick u and cause u pain... and etc. need i say more?? :)
Yes. You forgot this:
"Remember! Order before midnight tonight and we'll throw in TEN, count 'em, ten plagues (only available in Egypt); a worldwide flood; four genuine Apocalyptic horsemen; and a dead fig tree."
Seriously: With gods like that, who needs devils?
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
I have an interesting question.
If the existence of God cannot be proved, how did the idea of God become known to the human race in the first place?
If it comes down to trusting that a human had divine intervention with God, then surely the argument must not be about the existence of God, but about truth behind the words of a human being.
If someone told you he knows that tooth fairies really do take teeth from under children's pillows at night; and another person said that this was something his imagination made up, which statement would you - honestly, in your heart - believe?
We live in a world where everything must be proven. Courts of law are one of the bedrocks of so called civilised society. Everything has to be proven in a court of law. Why then must we believe the words of a another human being that he had a divine intervention with God.
I have an interesting exercise. Spend some time creating in your imagination some almighty force - an all seeing hippopotamus, or your own God, perhaps; and, beginning with the most weak minded gullible person you can find, tell them of your divine intervention. Convince them of your belief; tell them to have faith. Then when you have convinced them, work on another, and another. Soon you will have a following, and power comes from numbers. Maybe your group can collect enough money to build a house of worship.
I am being cynical here; but the idea of God really comes down to believeing the words of persons who lived thousands of years ago.
The closest thing to the idea of God is our imaginations. We use our imagination to create anything we want. Look at some of the most famous stories of our times - Star Wars, The Lord of The Rings. The imagination has no limits. Maybe someone's imagination is where the ultimate of all fables came from.
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
People believe in God for one reason and one reason only: the basis of all human emotions - fear. We say to ourselves, what if there really is a God, and I don't believe in him? Then I will spend an eternity burning in hell. Wow, that sounds very scary; I think I better go against what i believe in and submit to the belief of someone else. Now if that doesn't sound like the work of the devil, tell me what is.
If God exists, and he loves us all, then why are he and the devil playing the sickest game of all?
Gabmling is a sin, is it not.
If so, then we are all taking the ultimate gamble with our souls. 1: We can believe in God and go to heaven, or 2: we can believe in God and go to hell. Just as there is the possibility that that God might exist, there is also the possibility that the devil might be tricking all believers in God to going to hell.
Which is the right decision? No one knows or will ever know. We are born, we suffer, we die, they are the only things in our lives we are certain of. After that, who knows...
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
Anonymous Fundy posted at 11:02 and 11:10 AM 11-14-06 “You can't ask science to prove the existence of God for science is within God.”
I was really hoping someone would bring up Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem here...
Great website!
Austin
· 2 years ago
This uncited essay's conclusions are simply drawn from other known philosophies which have been around for centuries. I see nothing novel in your approach to the topic of the spiritual or material existence of God. I really have to laugh at this article's attempt to make any valid point regarding this subject.
No matter the arguments made even in a well cited 100,000 page essay, no valid conclusion could be drawn on this topic. Why? Simply because human beings cannot elevate their minds to the degree necessary to see or understand God...it is impossible. Thus the irony, one shall never prove nor disprove the reality or existence of a God, to anyone but themselves...for each of us exists in our own personal reality.
It is a futile topic to address, because any "conclusions" are purely speculative, and personal assumptions made based upon one's own perspective.
Good luck with which came first, the chicken or the egg as well. I look forward to your lackluster attempt at addressing that connundrum as well.
Sincerely, Austin, Texas
Austin
· 2 years ago
This uncited essay's conclusions are simply drawn from other known philosophies which have been around for centuries. I see nothing novel in your approach to the topic of the spiritual or material existence of God. I really have to laugh at this article's attempt to make any valid point regarding this subject.
No matter the arguments made even in a well cited 100,000 page essay, no valid conclusion could be drawn on this topic. Why? Simply because human beings cannot elevate their minds to the degree necessary to see or understand God...it is impossible. Thus the irony, one shall never prove nor disprove the reality or existence of a God, to anyone but themselves...for each of us exists in our own personal reality.
It is a futile topic to address, because any "conclusions" are purely speculative, and personal assumptions made based upon one's own perspective.
Good luck with which came first, the chicken or the egg as well. I look forward to your lackluster attempt at addressing that connundrum as well.
Sincerely, Austin, Texas
Jamie
· 2 years ago
Thus the irony, one shall never prove nor disprove the reality or existence of a God, to anyone but themselves...for each of us exists in our own personal reality.
Agreed. What gets bothersome about for me is that in my fundamentalist upbringing I had to endure most of the peole I knew insisting that they did INDEED know the Will of this very God (whose reality we know is impossible to prove as you say).
Ay, there's the rub. We can't prove his reality or lack thereof, but we can still tell you exactly how to live your life based on His Will that we believe we DO know.
It doesn't even make sense.
Caleb Estes
· 2 years ago
This essay is rubbish. Now, please listen so I can tell you why:
God is in few or maybe no religion believed to be the creator of evil. He simply gives his most intelligent creature (that’s supposed to be you and I) complete free will. Our purpose is simple, to fellowship with God, and in some religions to bring others to fellowship with us.
He is almighty, but does not want to allow his children to run around like mindless robots, simple toys. NO. Instead my friend, he chooses to let his friends (that’s us again smarty pants) choose to be with him.
God is almighty, but only uses his power on occasion, therefore his people may exercise freedom. Think, would you rather live under a monarchy who is brilliant and would rule fairly and justly so that all would prosper, or would you like your freedom, and therefore be allowed to live as YOU see fit?
He is good, for he blesses his people when they do good.
You see just is good, but not always in tune with a bubble-gum pop culture. God is just first, nice second. Punishments are well deserved my friend.
.:webmaster:.
· 2 years ago
Caleb,
You made some interestingly dogmatic statements.
You said, "God is in few or maybe no religion believed to be the creator of evil. He simply gives his most intelligent creature (that’s supposed to be you and I) complete free will. Our purpose is simple, to fellowship with God, and in some religions to bring others to fellowship with us."
Really? And you know all this because... why? Why do you think that what you just said is a reflection of reality? Please don't tell me you read it in an ancient holy book. We have way to many of those floating about these days.
You also said, "He is almighty, but does not want to allow his children to run around like mindless robots, simple toys. NO. Instead my friend, he chooses to let his friends (that’s us again smarty pants) choose to be with him.
Again, how do you know that any of what you just parroted is grounded in reality? Nice myth, but reality? Please present some evidence that any of this is anything but religious indoctrination.
You continued, "God is almighty, but only uses his power on occasion, therefore his people may exercise freedom. Think, would you rather live under a monarchy who is brilliant and would rule fairly and justly so that all would prosper, or would you like your freedom, and therefore be allowed to live as YOU see fit?
Same thing: HOW DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THIS IS TRUE? Are you a religious drone? Or did you come up with this nonsense on your own? Who taught you this stuff?
"He is good, for he blesses his people when they do good."
And you know this because...?
"You see just is good, but not always in tune with a bubble-gum pop culture. God is just first, nice second. Punishments are well deserved my friend."
You seem really, really sure of all this. Again, why should anyone accept anything you just spouted? And since when is everlasting (eternal, never ending, horrific, retributive) punishment in any way just for temporal disbelief? Can you honestly say you believe that because you beat off, or stole a candy bar, or lusted after your classmate that you deserve eternal torture?
Is torture, even temporary torture, the right way to treat people?
eel_shepherd
· 2 years ago
Caleb Estes asks: "...Think, would you rather live under a monarchy who is brilliant and would rule fairly and justly so that all would prosper, or would you like your freedom,..."
But wait; isn't this the scenario (i.e. heaven) to which all Xtians aspire, democrats and monarchists alike?
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
heres the answer to life buddy. choose to believe in god cause your dumb ass really doesnt no the answer cause noone does. life here will only be another 70 years or so but burnin in hell with be eternity make your choice now my friend. peace
.:webmaster:.
· 2 years ago
To anonymous:
Except, Buddy, Allah might be the one true god. Then what?
fjell
· 2 years ago
webmaster,
What slander is this?
You know Osiris is the one and only.
Damn.
fjell
stronger now
· 2 years ago
How DARE you all ignore the one true god of all!
FRED THE TURTLE is the ONLY true god.
May he have mercy on your immortal shells.
AtheistToothFairy
· 2 years ago
stronger now said: "FRED THE TURTLE is the ONLY true god" --- Ohhh-Now stronger (oops, stronger now),
Fred the turtle can't be god, but you're close. The turtle god is made up of the four teenage mutant ninja turtles. It's like the xtian Trinity +1 spare, just in case the devil gets a 'win' over this 4-part godhead.
So feel free to pick one of the four proper names from this godhead, but I assure you that Fred isn't one of them.
ATF (who always knew that the true gods lived in the sewer realm of earth)
stronger now
· 2 years ago
ATF,
In another thred Jim Arvo responding to a fundie said:
"If my pet turtle, Fred, created the universe, then he has provided ample evidence that he is god.
Agree? If so, then we can get straight to the interesting part: What evidence exists that god/Zeus/Fred created the universe? For the sake of pushing this discussion along, I'll start by positing that there is as much evidence for Fred creating the universe as there is for Yahweh creating the universe; in fact, probably a bit more, as Fred clearly exists."
Then I chimed in with:
"It reminds me of a story about a turtle who "on his shell holds the earth". To quote stephen king.
So I suspect fred is more than he seems.
All bow to fred! "
And so was born another deity to rule mankinds lives with fierce jealousy and tranquil repose.
The turtles of which you speak are the prophets of Fred and their high priest is the one called Splinter.
AtheistToothFairy
· 2 years ago
Stronger said to ATF: "The turtles of which you speak are the prophets of Fred and their high priest is the one called Splinter" --- Okay Stronger, I'll concede that god Fred wins this one.
So let's see, what you're saying then is that my 4 turtles are really more a ummm "Splinter Organization" of this Fred turtle God? [g]
Here's a Turtle earth-creation story that's just as believable as the story from Genesis. http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6375/
ATF (who didn't mind being in error about the turtle gods)
.:webmaster:.
· 2 years ago
ATF:
The term "splinter group" isn't used in the preferred apologetic rhetoric. Either your turtles are a demonic cult, or they are just one of the many streams of Turtlianity.
Got it?
fjell
· 2 years ago
No, Dave, ATF's turtles are simply a second manifestation (in what could be a long line of manifestations) of the divinity of the quadrune turtlehead.
Some of us spent years in spiritual torment agonizing over this very issue, so we'd appreciate if you would be so kind as to treat this with the spiritual equivalent of surgical gloves.
fjell
AtheistToothFairy
· 2 years ago
webmaster said: "ATF: The term "splinter group" isn't used in the preferred apologetic rhetoric. Either your turtles are a demonic cult, or they are just one of the many streams of Turtlianity" -- Mister Webmaster, Oh please, perish the thought that they might be demonic in nature. God Fred would never allow such evil beings to roam the earth...Unlike that other xtian god does with compassionate ease.
I have FAITH that the Turtlianity 'stream' my turtles came from was a Holy righteous one. Of course this 'stream' they were born from is getting a bit cramped now with their increasing size.
In fact I got a holy memo from them just the other day, saying they were moving onto larger pastures where they could find more suckers, errrr, open-hearted believers.
They were sure that by moving-up from their small stream to a much larger ancient river, that fewer disbelievers would find a reason to be in de-NILE of their sacred Turtlianity doctrine.
ATF
stronger now
· 2 years ago
Thanks for directing me to that ATF.
And just so you and the webmaster know, a "Shredder group" would be considered demonic.
Anyway, thanks for showing me that creation story. Perhaps I'll delve into other cultures creation myths a bit more now. Who knows, I might learn something.
boomSLANG
· 2 years ago
Annoyin'us popped in with:
[here's] the answer to life buddy. choose to believe in god [because] your dumb ass really doesnt [know] the answer [because] [no one] does.
So, let me get this straight---belief in "God" is the "answer to life", yet, you finish by saying "noone" knows the answer, including our "dumb asses".
Boy, you are a pillar of intelligence, aren't you? Hey, I would like to "no"---will you stick around and enlighten us further?
AtheistToothFairy
· 2 years ago
stronger now wrote: "Perhaps I'll delve into other cultures creation myths a bit more now. Who knows, I might learn something" ---- Stronger,
If you have a few hours of spare time on your hands, this site is quite extensive on the subject of "Creation and Flood Myths and Legends"
http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre04legends.html
I don't know how any thinking person could read thru all these many legends and still believe the xtian legend is the more logical one to believe. Well, assuming a person has a need to believe in ONE of them that is.
Me, I'll stick with the big-bang idea as the most likely one so far.
ATF
AtheistToothFairy
· 2 years ago
boomSLANG wrote to anon fundie: >[here's] the answer to life buddy. choose to believe in god [because] your dumb ass really doesnt [know] the answer [because] [no one] does.<
"Boy, you are a pillar of intelligence, aren't you? Hey, I would like to "no"---will you stick around and enlighten us further? " ------ Boom, What we have here is a wonderful sample of the fundies we are trying so hard to educate.
I take it that their all-knowing god forbids them to know anything about the very evil, devil-generated, SPELLING and GRAMMER talents that we heathens tend to learn about?
Doesn't it make you wonder sometimes, who exactly they find to boot-up their computers and get them onto our website? Perhaps the only letters this fundie knows how to put into google is GAWD and google then ask if he meant "GOD" instead..... and that is how he does all his google searching.
Hey anon fundie........ We know your god does all your thinking FOR YOU, but does he also spoon feed you all your meals as well? No wonder your faith is so strong and your IQ so weak.
Perhaps you can still convince us heathens by performing a few magic tricks for us instead. How about the water-into-wine one....always a favorite of mine.
ATF
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
This is the basis of my belief re: existence of God. I considered myself an atheist for awhile then agnostic. I personally feel there is no " divine intervention" by God on eart, we have free will to make mistakes and learn. A god that was merciful would just put you in a room and show you the national geographic version of the correct way to live and attain spiritual enlightenment IF HE/ SHE thought that woudl impart knowledge and wisdom. So obviuosly, if there is a god he/ she has devised a synd to say one is 100 percent sure stem whereby spiritual wisdom is somehting learned. BUT THE CRUX OF MY POINT REGARDING GOD AND ATHEISTS IS THIS: IF MAN IS UNABLE TO COMPREHEND THAT SOMETHING WAS MADE FROM NOTHING OR THAT SOMEHTING BEGAN FROM NOTHING THEN ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. Its the basis of Socratic ignorance.
Webster
· 1 year ago
God too is bound by the logic. Logic is in his own creation. Any artist/creator always keeps his standards and maintains his own protocols. And its not right to say YET that omnipotence cannot be achieved under physical laws. That should suffice to prove that this proof is incomplete.
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
You are as imaginative in your justifications for your beliefs as the Christians you seem to criticize. In many cases, more imaginative than many Christians because you read all these ideas in different places rather than getting them from a singular source. Many of them you even thought up yourself. But make no mistake, you are as much a prisoner of a faulty belief system as those you criticize, and are as completely blind to the truth as them. We are all blind to the truth, but we do not all have to feign knowing it as you and many religious fanatics do.
I know one thing, people who are sure they know something, don’t. The people you can trust are the people who are never quite sure, because they know they can be wrong, and are always questioning. People who know there is a God cannot be trusted, and neither can people who know there is no god. Because I know neither of them know what they are talking about.
1) You cannot prove the existence of God, and you certainly cannot disprove the existence of God. Anyone can poke holes in your logic just like you can use logic to poke holes in faith. All one needs do is have a bigger imagination than you and they can outwit your paradoxes. Por ejemplo...
Under the convenient connotative definitions you have chosen for “God”; “Omnipotence” “Almighty” etc., you have given yourself nice setups for your selected arguments. First of all, almighty and omnipotent, these do not include the power to do the impossible. Simply for the fact that the definition of the word impossible means it cannot be done, not even by something that is all-powerful. Meaning, if God can do it. It is not really impossible. Is it?
Therefore you are correct in that God cannot do the impossible. Simply because if God could do it, it can no longer be defined as impossible. The very statement “the ability to do the impossible.” Is self defeating. You’re just mincing words and creating a simple hypothetical logic puzzle that is unsolvable. If anything, you may have figured out something about God. You figured out that, if there is a God, he couldn’t do the impossible. Which is a redundancy.
Hurray for you, you’re one step closer to taking all this knowledge you gained and using wisely.
Many people believe logic and reason are the way to truth. But you can follow logic and reason right into madness if you really really want to.
As it best said on another Atheism website: It's worth mentioning a couple of things which logic is not.
First, logical reasoning is not an absolute law which governs the universe. Many times in the past, people have concluded that because something is logically impossible (given the science of the day), it must be impossible, period. It was also believed at one time that Euclidean geometry was a universal law; it is, after all, logically consistent. Again, we now know that the rules of Euclidean geometry are not universal.
Second, logic is not a set of rules which govern human behavior. Humans may have logically conflicting goals. For example:
* John wishes to speak to whomever is in charge. * The person in charge is Steve. * Therefore John wishes to speak to Steve.
Unfortunately, John may have a conflicting goal of avoiding Steve, meaning that the reasoned answer may be inapplicable to real life.
This document only explains how to use logic; you must decide whether logic is the right tool for the job. There are other ways to communicate, discuss and debate.
Not sure why a God needs to be worth worshipping. I think our free will pretty much states that we decide whether if we believe in God, and if we think he lives up to our own standards of worship. However misguided our standards are. Don’t know how worship is a factor in proving a god or a creator’s existence. If we all hated God, it would not mean anything about whether or not he exists and is the creator of all things. Even if none of us knew of him, how would that mean he exists or not. I think someone else responded with: “just because you don’t know it exists, doesn’t mean it doesn’t.” Sorry, worship is not a factor. I think it’s pretty obvious from the many different religions that God and Religion are separate.
Also. Assuming that we are supposed to have free will and the will to choose. And that god wants us to grow to be spiritually “good”. There is a very good reason that a God could never reveal his existence to us. If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have? He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate. We would then focus our lives around “What do I have to do to get in to Heaven.” When I would think he would want us to be good for the sake of being good. Not to kiss his ass or get into heaven. Being good to get into heaven is actually being bad in my book.
3) Rebuttal to definition of existence: Easy. God can easily be infinite. We are god. Everything is a part of God. And God is so much more than we can see. You thoughts are a part of god. This universe is a part of god. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. That’s all we can see of god…hypothetically of course. You are nothing more than a part of God, God therefore being something far bigger than I think you can imagine, far more intricate, far more complex. Not outside the realm of science, and not outside religious doctrines.
4) Occam’s Razor: This was the best argument you had. And it did nothing to prove god did not exist. It only proves that God is as likely an explanation as no god. So yes, remove god from the scientific equation to study the world. You are obviously not going to prove his existence if, say, he does not want it proved.
Basically you’re saying if you don’t have evidence of something, why bother with thinking it exists. There are so many obvious problems with that thinking. Especially in the realm of science.
Experiments and the best science start with theories, and sometimes little or no evidence. The purpose of the study is to FIND evidence. If pure genius scientists like Einstien truly followed Occam’s razor, we would still be in the dark ages.
To conclude. If you had started with an argument to say “Christians can not know God exists!”, or “The reasons it is unlikey that there is a God.” Or even “Athiesm: Why I think God does not exist.” I would have been with you. But seeing as how you went very very out of your way to post a well researched and time consuming blog about how you have proof that God does not exist, I felt I needed to stand up to your hypocrisy. Which I only pray you can see.
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
You are as imaginative in your justifications for your beliefs as the Christians you seem to criticize. In many cases, more imaginative than many Christians because you read all these ideas in different places rather than getting them from a singular source. Many of them you even thought up yourself. But make no mistake, you are as much a prisoner of a faulty belief system as those you criticize, and are as completely blind to the truth as them. We are all blind to the truth, but we do not all have to feign knowing it as you and many religious fanatics do.
I know one thing, people who are sure they know something, don’t. The people you can trust are the people who are never quite sure, because they know they can be wrong, and are always questioning. People who know there is a God cannot be trusted, and neither can people who know there is no god. Because I know neither of them know what they are talking about.
1) You cannot prove the existence of God, and you certainly cannot disprove the existence of God. Anyone can poke holes in your logic just like you can use logic to poke holes in faith. All one needs do is have a bigger imagination than you and they can outwit your paradoxes. Por ejemplo...
Under the convenient connotative definitions you have chosen for “God”; “Omnipotence” “Almighty” etc., you have given yourself nice setups for your selected arguments. First of all, almighty and omnipotent, these do not include the power to do the impossible. Simply for the fact that the definition of the word impossible means it cannot be done, not even by something that is all-powerful. Meaning, if God can do it. It is not really impossible. Is it?
Therefore you are correct in that God cannot do the impossible. Simply because if God could do it, it can no longer be defined as impossible. The very statement “the ability to do the impossible.” Is self defeating. You’re just mincing words and creating a simple hypothetical logic puzzle that is unsolvable. If anything, you may have figured out something about God. You figured out that, if there is a God, he couldn’t do the impossible. Which is a redundancy.
Hurray for you, you’re one step closer to taking all this knowledge you gained and using wisely.
Many people believe logic and reason are the way to truth. But you can follow logic and reason right into madness if you really really want to.
As it best said on another Atheism website: It's worth mentioning a couple of things which logic is not.
First, logical reasoning is not an absolute law which governs the universe. Many times in the past, people have concluded that because something is logically impossible (given the science of the day), it must be impossible, period. It was also believed at one time that Euclidean geometry was a universal law; it is, after all, logically consistent. Again, we now know that the rules of Euclidean geometry are not universal.
Second, logic is not a set of rules which govern human behavior. Humans may have logically conflicting goals. For example:
* John wishes to speak to whomever is in charge. * The person in charge is Steve. * Therefore John wishes to speak to Steve.
Unfortunately, John may have a conflicting goal of avoiding Steve, meaning that the reasoned answer may be inapplicable to real life.
This document only explains how to use logic; you must decide whether logic is the right tool for the job. There are other ways to communicate, discuss and debate.
Not sure why a God needs to be worth worshipping. I think our free will pretty much states that we decide whether if we believe in God, and if we think he lives up to our own standards of worship. However misguided our standards are. Don’t know how worship is a factor in proving a god or a creator’s existence. If we all hated God, it would not mean anything about whether or not he exists and is the creator of all things. Even if none of us knew of him, how would that mean he exists or not. I think someone else responded with: “just because you don’t know it exists, doesn’t mean it doesn’t.” Sorry, worship is not a factor. I think it’s pretty obvious from the many different religions that God and Religion are separate.
Also. Assuming that we are supposed to have free will and the will to choose. And that god wants us to grow to be spiritually “good”. There is a very good reason that a God could never reveal his existence to us. If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have? He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate. We would then focus our lives around “What do I have to do to get in to Heaven.” When I would think he would want us to be good for the sake of being good. Not to kiss his ass or get into heaven. Being good to get into heaven is actually being bad in my book.
3) Rebuttal to definition of existence: Easy. God can easily be infinite. We are god. Everything is a part of God. And God is so much more than we can see. You thoughts are a part of god. This universe is a part of god. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. That’s all we can see of god…hypothetically of course. You are nothing more than a part of God, God therefore being something far bigger than I think you can imagine, far more intricate, far more complex. Not outside the realm of science, and not outside religious doctrines.
4) Occam’s Razor: This was the best argument you had. And it did nothing to prove god did not exist. It only proves that God is as likely an explanation as no god. So yes, remove god from the scientific equation to study the world. You are obviously not going to prove his existence if, say, he does not want it proved.
Basically you’re saying if you don’t have evidence of something, why bother with thinking it exists. There are so many obvious problems with that thinking. Especially in the realm of science.
Experiments and the best science start with theories, and sometimes little or no evidence. The purpose of the study is to FIND evidence. If pure genius scientists like Einstien truly followed Occam’s razor, we would still be in the dark ages.
To conclude. If you had started with an argument to say “Christians can not know God exists!”, or “The reasons it is unlikey that there is a God.” Or even “Athiesm: Why I think God does not exist.” I would have been with you. But seeing as how you went very very out of your way to post a well researched and time consuming blog about how you have proof that God does not exist, I felt I needed to stand up to your hypocrisy. Which I only pray you can see.
stronger now
· 1 year ago
Hmm? A couple of things.
"you must decide whether logic is the right tool for the job."
Can you suggest any other tools for knowing, as far as anyone can know, what is, or is not, objective reality?
"If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have?"
We would have the free will to decide whether or not a god is worthy of our worship. As you pointed out before, worship and existence are seperate issues.
"When I would think he would want us to be good for the sake of being good."
If a gods existence is proven, then we would still have the free will to decide what is and is not good, and the ability to determine for ourselves if this god wants us to be good, and the ability to decide if this god fits our individual standards for what is good.
You're assuming that if a deity exists it must be good, or at least desires us to be good, and that a heaven exists. Why?
"He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate."
As I have just explained, this statement is untrue.
"We are god."
You must be joking.
"Occam’s Razor: This was the best argument you had. And it did nothing to prove god did not exist."
Occam's razor isn't meant to "prove" wheher or not a god exists, but to show that not all claims are equally plausible.
"It only proves that God is as likely an explanation as no god."
If that were the case then one could use any explanation for anything.
For example:
Q: Why did the apple fall from the tree?
A: Because the invisible pixies wanted to feed off of it near the ground.
A2: Gravity.
Occam's razor doesn't "prove" that pixies don't exist, but when used, effectivly eliminates the pixie explanation as the most plausible answer.
Just a start. I may be wrong.
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
Chimerafilm...If you had started with an argument to say “Christians can not know God exists!”, or “The reasons it is unlikey that there is a God.” Or even “Athiesm: Why I think God does not exist.” I would have been with you.
What's this? One minute you're saying "I would have been with you" if the article was worded to your liking---as in, "Atheism: Why I think God does not exist".
Yet, you finish with this...
I only pray you can see.
You pray that we can see whAT?...that God does not exist? That requires no prayer, begging, nor pleading. Biblegod is just as implausible as square circles.
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
I think you both missed my entire point.
I am not trying to say that God exists. I am not even really talking about God at all. I am as clueless as you or anybody else about the existance of God.
My POINT is at least I have the balls to admit "I don't know". And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic.
I know what I believe. And I know what the poster of this article believes, and that's all well and good. But at least I have the self awareness to know the difference between beliefs and knowledge.
Beliefs are something we all have. Knowledge is the word morons use to describe their beliefs.
What the author fails to see is that he is twisting his BELIEFS and calling it "KNOWLEDGE". He is doing the exact same thing as all all the leaders of every religous war in history.
KNOWING there is NO God is as INSANE as KNOWING there IS a God. I don't object to his beliefs.
In answer to the question, what I'm I praying for...I'm praying that the author can see the irony and hypocrisy. I think I said that pretty clearly.
Also, in response to..."We are God." "You must be joking."
You just completely missed my point if you thought I was trying to convince you of that. It is an old spiritual belief. I believe it's Khabbalistic. And in my head it actually makes sense. But then again, I have a very good imagination.
At this point it's getting exhausting that all the responses to my post completely missed my point anyway, so...I think I'll just stop.
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
One final note I guess.
Free will doesn't mean we choose what is good and what is evil.
That is a misunderstanding of the idea of free will.
The universe is what it is, and free will does not change the laws that govern the universe.
If there truly is such a thing as good and evil in the universe. It is as much a universal truth as gravity or any other universal law. Otherwise it is simply a construct within the human mind and therefore does not exist.
But since I think we are both speaking in the hypothetical sense as if God, Good and Evil exist, I will continue.
You can choose to be one or the other in essence, but you cannot choose to change the dynamics of the law. You cannot define through free will what is and isn't good.
For example, you have the free will to kill an innocent person and take their money if you choose. You cannot through free will change weather or not its good. It is simply is or isn't, and there is nothing you can do. You will have to hide it, or you will go to jail. You cannot change that through free will. It's what is.
Free will only gives you the choice to act and believe within the laws of the world you are put in, those laws will react accordingly to your actions. Believe what you believe, but if there is such a thing as truth, that means that your beliefs are going to be either wrong or right. Measured by how close to this truth they match up.
If there is no truth...then who cares. Beliefs are all anyone's got either way.
stronger now
· 1 year ago
"...at least I have the balls to admit 'I don't know'."
At least i have the balls to admit "I may be wrong."
"And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic."
Excuse me? That didn't answer my question. I asked:
"Can you suggest any other tools for knowing, as far as anyone can know, what is, or is not, objective reality?"
I'm not "trapped" by logic. I use it as a "tool" for finding what is true and objectively real and what isn't. If there is a better "tool" then by all means let's hear it. Untill then your advocating an absurdity. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
"Free will doesn't mean we choose what is good and what is evil."
Umm? Yeah it does.
"That is a misunderstanding of the idea of free will."
If you wish to define free will as not haveing an ability to choose for yourself what is right and what is wrong, and also the ability to act on what you choose, then it's not really free will.
Allow me to explain. In the hypothetical situation that a god exists, if we humans have free will then we have the free will to decide if the god is a good god or an evil god based on our own understanding of the concepts of what is, or is not, good. If this deity were to, say, command genocide and torture people for eternity, we could decide for ourselves, using our free will, that this god is not a good god.
"The universe is what it is, and free will does not change the laws that govern the universe."
True. But how did you get that there is a universal law governing morality?
Oh yeah.
"If there truly is such a thing as good and evil in the universe. It is as much a universal truth as gravity or any other universal law."
Wrong. What you decide is good may be different than what someone else decides is good. You may wish that a deity must be good, but it may not necessarily be so. How would you decide if the god that hypothetically exists is worthy of worship? One person may like the fact that a deity tortures people, another may not. If both are talking about the same god, then there isn't a moral absolute. Gravity, on the other hand, works the same way for all. If I were to go into outer space I'd find that I too would "float". If I returned to the earths surface I wouldn't "float" anymore. Any reasoning person can admit to a similar result, because the law of gravity isn't subject to interpretation. Moral actions are.
"Otherwise it[good and evil] is simply a construct within the human mind and therefore does not exist."
You imply that because it's a human concept, it's worthless. Funny, but I think that "god" is a human concept that exists only in the minds of humans and not in objective reality. One of the reasons I think this, is because each human seems to have a different god concept. Just like their idea of right and wrong, each uses their own free will to decide what god concept to believe in and then some may change it to meet their own ideas of what a god should be. Even those without a god concept still use their own free will to decide what is right and what is wrong in any given situation.
You say you have a good imagination. Then tell me one moral absolute that everyone can all agree on about a situation, involving, say, shooting someone in the head. If you automatically say it's wrong to shoot someone in the head, then you're not using your imagination. I can quickly come up with several different scenarios in which I would think it would be the right thing to do.
"For example, you have the free will to kill an innocent person and take their money if you choose. You cannot through free will change weather or not its good. It is simply is or isn't, and there is nothing you can do."
What if this God told you to? Is the action then become good simply because a god condoned it? Would it be "evil" not to do it if this god told you to? Does a god automatically get off the hook? Just because you and I agree that an action is immoral doesn't mean that we cannot use our free will to decide if a god is or isn't good. That's the point I'm trying to make. Again you have failed to show why you believe that a god MUST be good.
"...but if there is such a thing as truth, that means that your beliefs are going to be either wrong or right. Measured by how close to this truth they match up."
So what is the best method for discovering the truth if not logic and reason? Still you haven't answered this question.
stronger now
· 1 year ago
"For example, you have the free will to kill an innocent person and take their money if you choose. You cannot through free will change weather or not its good. It is simply is or isn't, and there is nothing you can do."
What if this innocent person was in such pain from cancer, a cancer that would eventually take her life, that she begged you to take her life by an overdose of pain medication, and even wanted to pay you to do it.
Would it be good to let her suffer longer?
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
Chimera'....I think you both missed my entire point. I am not trying to say that God exists.
I assume you are talking to me, and if so, I ask you---why are you then "praying" for people? It seems to me that that at least implicitly suggests you're saying a "god" exists.
Chimera'...I am not even really talking about God at all. I am as clueless as you or anybody else about the existance of God.
Fair enough, but before we get off the subject of "God", I'd be interested to know how "clueless" you are when it comes to the existence of the following deities, all of which at one time were claimed to be responsible for "Creation":
- Marduk
- Ptah
- Brahma
- Kamui
?
Do you know they don't exist? Or are you "clueless" as to their existence..i.e.."don't know"? Which one best represents your position? Be honest.
Chimera'...My POINT is at least I have the balls to admit "I don't know".
Again I ask, how big do one's testicles need to be to deny the existence of the above-referenced "Gods"? This is what I'm trying to figure out from those who seemingly push the agnostic position.
Chimera'...And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic.
Feel free to explain how using logic limits or "traps" an individual's thought-process.
Chimera'...Knowledge is the word morons use to describe their beliefs.
Let me illustrate a point by analogy: Do you "know" square circles don't exist? Whether you do know, or do not know...do you "believe" square circles don't exist? The point I'm making is that if one presumably "knows" something to be true, it's fair to say they "believe" it to be true. On the other hand, if someone "believes" something, it doesn't necessarily mean they "know" its truth.
In think the author is more or less trying to say that the attributes that are commonly assigned to "God" by human beings, in the long run, are mutually incompatable; they create philosophical contradictions. Using logic, we can say with certainty that such proposed beings are conceptually impossible, and thus, their reality is impossible.
Now, if you want to go outside the laws of logic, then sure..of course, anything is "possible"! The Universe is your imagination's playground. Lots of luck with that.
AtheistToothFairy
· 1 year ago
chimerafilm said: KNOWING there is NO God is as INSANE as KNOWING there IS a God
One can't actually 'know' that there is no god, however, one can sure know that we have zero credible evidence to support the existence of a god who intervenes in human affairs. Lacking such evidence, it's not really sticking one's neck out very far to assume one need not worry about such a god, being in judgement of their lives.
How much do you stick out your neck to dismiss that the god Neptune affects our daily lives? Do you know with total certainty that the god Neptune doesn't exists?
Well, I think it's a safe bet that the bible god resides in the same world of chance, as the god Neptune does. Until some xtian can show me evidence that their bible god not only exists, but has the ability and willingness to affect the course of my life, then I'll have to take the default position of a no-god scenario in my life.
ATF (Who still thinks Neptune makes a far cooler god than the bible god ever did)
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
Italics didn't work on my last post. So I guess best of luck reading it.
I just need to say. People keep trying to discuss the nature of God with me. I am not here to discuss the nature of God.
I am here discuss his existance. If he exists, the nature of his existance is another topic entirley. I don't need to discuss weather he is evil, weather his is Neptune. Just because some people who are less or more intelligent than you wrote a book about God and it doesn't add up, you say that's a good indication that God doesn't exist.
If there is a creator that never showed himself, I think there would be a lot of religions and people trying really hard to interpret and understand him. A lot of people who didn't believe in him. And they'd all believe in one thing or another and fight about it endlessly, and no one would know what they were talking about. They'd all just puff up and act like they did.
Then they'd die. And find out what my definition of truth is.
webmdave
· 1 year ago
I would like to ask however…if there is no such thing as truth, what the hell are we all fighting about?
There are plenty of things that are true. Boiling water is hot. Freezing water is cold. Apples fall to the ground.
What is being discussed here is not is whether or not there are supernatural invisible, immaterial, super-dimensional beings entities flying around somewhere who demand that humans worship them. That is the real discussion.
So, if you claim that there are such living beings that exist beyond human comprehension, what is your evidence for the existence of those beings?
Oh, and by they way, I also doubt the existence of Big Foot, leprechauns and visitors to Earth from Alpha Centauri.
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
FINAL ATTEMPT TO POST THIS RIGHT. IS THERE NO WAY TO DELETE POSTS WITH MISTAKES?
STRONGER NOW SAID: "...at least I have the balls to admit 'I don't know'."
At least I have the balls to admit "I may be wrong."
REPLY: Stronger now… I wasn’t referring to you. I was referring to the author. It is the author I have a problem with. Not you. The author does NOT seem to have said balls.
STRONGER NOW SAID: "And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic."
Excuse me? That didn't answer my question. I asked:
"Can you suggest any other tools for knowing, as far as anyone can know, what is, or is not, objective reality?"
I'm not "trapped" by logic. I use it as a "tool" for finding what is true and objectively real and what isn't. If there is a better "tool" then by all means let's hear it. Untill then your advocating an absurdity. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
REPLY: Again I wasn’t referring to you. I was referring to the author. You did not seem so blindly sure of yourself. But since you seem insistent that I answer your question, I will try.
Logic can not help you to know anything other than the best answers to logical questions. Such as square circle cannot exist simply because of the defintion of a square and a circle. God is not a logic problem as much as the author would argue he/she is. Logically you can only deduce the probability that there is no god. You cannot deduct its certainty.
What other tools are there? Lots: There are other lesser and better tools that can be used as well, such as intuition, free association, experimentation, investigation, observation. Logic is absolutely not any one of these. It is used in conjunction with them, but logic cannot on its own render the findings that any of these other tools can. They must all be used together. Logic has its limitations like any other tool.
STRONGER NOW SAID: "Free will doesn't mean we choose what is good and what is evil."
Umm? Yeah it does.
REPLY: I have to disagree. But I think you misunderstand. You can choose what YOU believe is good and evil. But if there is such a thing as truth, then you be right or wrong in what you believe. I
If there is NOT such a thing as truth, like a said, good and evil does not exist, and good boils down then to a human moral construct and better fits the way I think you see good and evil.
I am talking about the possibility of absolute truth. You define good as a question of morality. Morality is simply the way one interprets what is good or evil. If there is absolute truth, there is “actual good”. You have the free will to believe differently, but if there is truth, that just means you have the freedom to “choose poorly or wisely.” Your intuition will tell you quicker than logic weather you believe something is good or bad, is this based on your moral beliefs, or a sense o the truth. I can’t say.
STRONGER NOW SAID: "That is a misunderstanding of the idea of free will."
If you wish to define free will as not haveing an ability to choose for yourself what is right and what is wrong, and also the ability to act on what you choose, then it's not really free will.
REPLY: I disagree. I do not agree that free will is ultimate freedom to do and be and believe what you want without consequence . There are consequences to every action. This is true weather or not there is a god.
STRONGER NOW SAID: Allow me to explain. In the hypothetical situation that a god exists, if we humans have free will then we have the free will to decide if the god is a good god or an evil god based on our own understanding of the concepts of what is, or is not, good. If this deity were to, say, command genocide and torture people for eternity, we could decide for ourselves, using our free will, that this god is not a good god.
REPLY: Then yes we could decide to believe that God was bad. That is within our free will. If we decide that God is sadistic and orchestrating everything on earth and most of the Earth is pain, then we might logically deduce god is bad. It’s an old argument and the most common among atheists. Athiests I think believe if there is god, he must have a hand in human affairs. Therefore either god does not exist, or god is evil. Fine, if that’s what you believe.
STRONGER NOW SAID: "The universe is what it is, and free will does not change the laws that govern the universe."
True. But how did you get that there is a universal law governing morality?
REPLY: I think I tried to state this. If there is absolute truth, and if there is a god, then morality is simply they way we interpret it.
I guess the point your really trying to make is that god could be evil and if an evil being created absolute truth, then absolute truth would be corrupt in your eyes.
Well, I just think that is kind of a hard argument to sell. It is far more likely that there is no God than there is an evil God. It is much harder for me to imagine a supreme intelligence that decided to be evil. Simply because I believe evil to be a result of a lack of true wisdom. Evil as far as I can tell derives from false, twisted thinking. But that is simply my belief, so therefore it is hard for someone like me to imagine something with near perfect intelligence having false or twisted thinking. I find it much more plausible that there is either a ‘good’ god, or no god at all.
I don’t understand how your argument addressess mine really. Mine is that the author cannot know what he says he knows.
STRONGER NOW SAID: "If there truly is such a thing as good and evil in the universe. It is as much a universal truth as gravity or any other universal law."
Wrong. What you decide is good may be different than what someone else decides is good. You may wish that a deity must be good, but it may not necessarily be so. How would you decide if the god that hypothetically exists is worthy of worship? One person may like the fact that a deity tortures people, another may not. If both are talking about the same god, then there isn't a moral absolute. Gravity, on the other hand, works the same way for all. If I were to go into outer space I'd find that I too would "float". If I returned to the earths surface I wouldn't "float" anymore. Any reasoning person can admit to a similar result, because the law of gravity isn't subject to interpretation. Moral actions are.
REPLY: I already made my point on this one. I just disagree with you completely. If we truly choose what is good and what is evil, then there is no such thing as good and evil.
I am not talking about morals. Morals exist either way.
I am talking about the existence of truth and an ‘actual good’. Apart and separate form what we believe is good or what is morally good, which we can obviously choose. If this exists, we cannot change it. If we can change it, then it does not exist, and is nothing more than a concept.
STRONGER NOW SAID: "Otherwise it[good and evil] is simply a construct within the human mind and therefore does not exist."
You imply that because it's a human concept, it's worthless. Funny, but I think that "god" is a human concept that exists only in the minds of humans and not in objective reality. One of the reasons I think this, is because each human seems to have a different god concept. Just like their idea of right and wrong, each uses their own free will to decide what god concept to believe in and then some may change it to meet their own ideas of what a god should be. Even those without a god concept still use their own free will to decide what is right and what is wrong in any given situation.
REPLY: Again, I’ve already addressed this. But I did not say the human concept is worthless. I just said that good and evil therefore do not exist. Meaning they are then of course like you say, not laws in the universe. All totally possible. Again, off track. My point is that you cannot know for certain. You seem to be supporting me in this.
I would like to ask however…if there is no such thing as truth, what the hell are we all fighting about? That my belief is better than your belief. Who cares, aren’t we all trying to find out the truth?
My stance is that if there is a God. Then there is a universal right or wrong and for better reasons than you or I could figure. You don’t have to believe this, there are other options, but this is the best for me. This is of coarse a tangent again. My point still being that no one knows. I loathe it when people claim that they do. That’s what this author did.
STRONGER NOW SAID: You say you have a good imagination. Then tell me one moral absolute that everyone can all agree on about a situation, involving, say, shooting someone in the head. If you automatically say it's wrong to shoot someone in the head, then you're not using your imagination. I can quickly come up with several different scenarios in which I would think it would be the right thing to do.
"For example, you have the free will to kill an innocent person and take their money if you choose. You cannot through free will change weather or not its good. It is simply is or isn't, and there is nothing you can do."
What if this God told you to? Is the action then become good simply because a god condoned it? Would it be "evil" not to do it if this god told you to? Does a god automatically get off the hook? Just because you and I agree that an action is immoral doesn't mean that we cannot use our free will to decide if a god is or isn't good. That's the point I'm trying to make. Again you have failed to show why you believe that a god MUST be good.
REPLY What is your point here? You have simply illustrated mine. That you can’t be sure. I don’t know the answer to these questions. They are all good ones. And everyone will answer differently. Again, my argument is that the author can not know God does not exist.
In answer to your question about why god must be good. As I said earlier, that is just my belief, for reasons that I stated. An evil god is far more unlikely to me that no god at all.
STRONGER NOW SAID: "...but if there is such a thing as truth, that means that your beliefs are going to be either wrong or right. Measured by how close to this truth they match up."
So what is the best method for discovering the truth if not logic and reason? Still you haven't answered this question.
REPLY: I have now answered it as best I think I can. Sorry, I had not been responding to this question in my earlier post.
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
WEBMDAVE
I never said God existed. If you had read my posts you would know that. I am not trying to prove the existance of God. How many times do I have to say this?
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
Italics didn't work on my last post. So I guess best of luck reading it.
I just need to say. People keep trying to discuss the nature of God with me. I am not here to discuss the nature of God.
I am here discuss his existance. If he exists, the nature of his existance is another topic entirley. I don't need to discuss weather he is evil, weather his is Neptune. Just because some people who are less or more intelligent than you wrote a book about God and it doesn't add up, you say that's a good indication that God doesn't exist.
If there is a creator that never showed himself, I think there would be a lot of religions and people trying really hard to interpret and understand him. A lot of people who didn't believe in him. And they'd all believe in one thing or another and fight about it endlessly, and no one would know what they were talking about. They'd all just puff up and act like they did.
Then they'd die. And find out what my definition of truth is.
webmdave
· 1 year ago
Italics don't work
Unless you mark up your text correctly. CLICK HERE
Did you happen to notice the little garbage can at the end of your posts on the comment post page? Clicking the garbage can will delete your comment.
webmdave
· 1 year ago
Then what is your point? Hmm?
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
Since nothing from my second-to-the-last post was addressed, I'll now focus on this one statement:
Chimera' ....I am here [to]discuss his[God's existence].
Okay, me too. The questions I previously asked, I feel, are quite pertinent to this topic, that is, where "knowledge" of "God" is concerned, and where definitions of "God" are concerned. Here, again, is my comment, in relation to your previous remarks:
Chimera'..."I am not even really talking about God at all. I am as clueless as you or anybody else about the existance of God."
Me: "Fair enough, but before we get off the subject of 'God', I'd be interested to know how 'clueless' you are when it comes to the existence of the following deities, all of which at one time were claimed to be responsible for 'Creation':
- Marduk
- Ptah
- Brahma
- Kamui
Do you know they don't exist? Or are you "clueless" as to their existence..i.e..'don't know'? Which one best represents your position?"[Italics added]
Also, you said you're not really here to talk about "God", yet, your latest remarks state that you want to talk about the "existence" of "God". Is there a distiction you'd like to make?
As for an "Absolute Morality", there is none. That doesn't mean there is no "Truth".
AtheistToothFairy
· 1 year ago
I sense a Quasi-Buddhist here.
Boom', don't the following statements from Chimera, remind you of a certain Buddhist we once entertained here?
--------------- I am talking about the possibility of absolute truth
I'm not "trapped" by logic
If there is absolute truth, there is “actual good”. You have the free will to believe differently, but if there is truth, that just means you have the freedom to “choose poorly or wisely.”
If there is absolute truth, and if there is a god, then morality is simply they way we interpret it.
I do not agree that free will is ultimate freedom to do and be and believe what you want without consequence . There are consequences to every action
I am talking about the existence of truth and an ‘actual good’ Apart and separate form what we believe is good or what is morally good, which we can obviously choose. If this exists, we cannot change it. If we can change it, then it does not exist, and is nothing more than a concept.
My stance is that if there is a God. Then there is a universal right or wrong and for better reasons than you or I could figure. You don’t have to believe this, there are other options, but this is the best for me
Then they'd die. And find out what my definition of truth is ----------------------
Chimera,
If, as you say, it can't be determined whether a god of some kind truly exists, then what makes you so sure that upon dying that this "truth" you speak about, will be discovered by each person? Obviously, if no god exists and if there is no afterlife, one who dies will never find out this universal truth you speak of.
Of course, your last statement I quoted here, implies that we would discover this universal truth upon dying, which means you must have some reason to believe that we live-on after death, yes? Care to provide us with some reasons why you think this afterlife scenario is a universal 'truth'? Best as I can tell, there is no more evidence for an afterlife, than there is for a bible god.
ATF (Who thinks someone is trying to see if we ex-xtians would swallow a religion that is based on Buddhist philosophies)
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that there is an afterlife.
My definition of truth is meant to encompass the possibility that there is simply nothing after you die.
The simple truth could be that there is no afterlife.
My point being, only the dead know. The author of this blog does not.
I guess you could say if there is no after life, then when you die, you don't know, but then your missing my point and we are just mincing words again.
Anyway, stand by my point. The author of this blog does not know that there is no god.
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
Boomslang,
I did not answer your comments before because I do not understand you line of questioning. I will answer I guess.
I have only heard of two of the four dieties you describe. Marduk and Bramha.
If you really want to get into my beliefs we can. But I am trying not to bore people TOO much with what I believe. I also feel like you want to know them just so you can attack them. And ignore the point about the author I am trying to make. But I guess no one seems to be listening or agreeing with me anyway. So...
Experiences in my life have pushed my thinking toward this...I think most religions try hard to interpret something that people feel exists, but have a hard time grasping. Weather these dieties exist or not I cannot say. But what I can say is that they probably do not exist in the way the religion that portrays them says they exist. If there is a super-natural world, I think most of it is misinterpreted.
Perhaps they are all attempts to describe the same thing, perhaps one is describiing parts of a whole another understands better.
Do you have something further to add? I don't understand. As to weather I am clueless or I do not know. I guess "I do not know" better describes how I feel. Why?
Do you yourself think you can KNOW there is no god. Or do describe Athiesm that which you choose to believe. Which better describes how YOU feel?
I am all for being an Athiest if that is what you choose to believe. But athiesm is a belief system. I have a real problem with Athiests or anyone who thinks of themselves as enlightened.
I would think this is an argurment most Athiests would actually side with me on.
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
Chimera', do you know what I find ironic and slightly annoying? Well, it's that you unceasingly accuse others of "missing" your "point(s)", yet, you don't f%cking seem to "get" anyone elses points.
I'll capitalize on just a few statements for now:
You: Anyway, stand by my point. The author of this blog does not know that there is no god.[bold added]
Let's review: We know that objects and/or beings that have attributes assigned to them that contradict, or by their very concept, have attributes that contradict, cannot exist. A few examples of some of these beings and objects are "married bachelors" and "square circles", respectively.
Do you follow so far?
The author is primarily focusing on definitions of "God" where human beings come along and assign attributes..i.e..personality traits, personal capabilities, etc., that CONTRADICT. He covers this extensively. In other words, if "God" is claimed to be both circular and square, we know no such "God" can exist. 'Get it?
Now, as for an invisible, conscious, supreme being that is not self-refuting, you are right, no one can say such a being is disproven with certainty. However, we certainly can say that such a being, or "God", does remain UNproven. Do you see the difference between the two?...disproven, and unproven?
In other words, you can stand by your point all you want---in the end, said "point" amounts to non-sequitur.
You: Do you yourself think you can KNOW there is no god.
Again, the question is meaningless----you would first have to define which "god" you are refering to.
You: Or do describe [Atheism] that which you choose to believe. Which better describes how YOU feel?
The latter best describes my thoughts, however, "Atheism" is not a "belief"; it is lack of belief. Projecting what you think "Atheism" means will not work in this case. Insisting that the lack of belief is "a belief" is redundant, unnecessary, and is fallacious reasoning.
stronger now
· 1 year ago
chimerafilm said: "What other tools are there? Lots: There are other lesser and better tools that can be used as well, such as intuition, free association, experimentation, investigation, observation."
Of these I'd say that they don't need logic in order to render answers. You'd have answers that may make no sense, but you'd still have answers. So is there a better one than logic? I suppose that depends on if you require answers that needn't make sense. I agree with you that they need to be used in conjunction with logic, but I disagree that any of them are better alone than logic is. Since I think I understand you on this, I'll move on.
"If there is absolute truth, there is 'actual good'."
Why? Why must there be actual good if there is truth? As far as I understand it, facts are facts, and they depend on humans to determine their "goodness". If humans no longer existed, what remains is neither good nor evil, it's just what is.
"I do not agree that free will is ultimate freedom to do and be and believe what you want without consequence."
You misrepresent what I said. I believe free will describes the ability to act, whether or not a cosequence to the action exists. I have the free will to drive my car off a cliff. This doesn't mean I won't get hurt. It just means I have the ability.
Let me remind you that this part got started when you said that a god couldn't reveal his existence without destroying our free will. I disagree because I was thinking about the free will we would have in regards to whether or not we would have to worship him. Not about our free will whether or not we could believe in his existence. I think humans have an amazing ability(read free will) to believe what they want to, IN SPITE OF any evidence. Therefore I don't see a god revealing his existence as hindering free will.
"I guess the point your really trying to make is that god could be evil and if an evil being created absolute truth, then absolute truth would be corrupt in your eyes."
No. This isn't my point. My point was that if a god exists it didn't create all things. Absolute truth is one of those things that must exist independently from a god.
Unless, of course, you think that god somehow created himself or existed before an absolute truth existed. And if absolute truth and absolute good didn't exist untill god created them, that would mean that a god existed without the ability to determine good and bad. Or you could go with the "god is everything" concept which would make god both good and evil, right and wrong. So which is it? (Hint: Just use occam's razor here and you too won't have to worry over such things)
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
Stronger' said...Let me remind you[Chimera'] that this part got started when you said that a god couldn't reveal his existence without destroying our free will.
If he/she said such a thing, then I must've missed it. Nonetheless, the notion is nonsensical, not that that is entirely shocking at this point. If "God" - pick a god; any god will do - "revealed" himself/herself/itself, we still have the "free will" to reject him/her/it. Moreover, I find it really insteresting that "God" is continually defined by what he/she/it will not do. 'Very revealing.
As for the christian biblegod, shit, he was allegedly making appearances all over the place just a few thousand years ago. Specifically, to "the Twelve", and to the over five hundred on-lookers. Note, this did not harm their "free will" or their "faith" one iota. Chimera's premise fails.
Shalom!
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
Stronger Now...
Stronger Now Said: The latter best describes my thoughts, however, "Atheism" is not a "belief"; it is lack of belief. Projecting what you think "Atheism" means will not work in this case. Insisting that the lack of belief is "a belief" is redundant, unnecessary, and is fallacious reasoning.
REPLY: RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S COLLEGE DICTIONARY:
Atheism: The doctrine or BELIEF that there is no God.
Believe: (DEFS 3-5) 3) To have confidence or faith in the truth of. 4) To have confidence in the assertions of 5) to hold as an opnion; suppose; think.
You are simply wrong Stronger Now. I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this. But not only does the dictionary back me up that Atheism is in fact a beliefe system, Athiesm is a belief system because it is based on things you don't really know. Please don't get so heavy handed with remarks like "fallacious thinking" when you haven't done your research.
STRONGER NOW SAID: Of these I'd say that they don't need logic in order to render answers. You'd have answers that may make no sense, but you'd still have answers. So is there a better one than logic? I suppose that depends on if you require answers that needn't make sense.
REPLY: Exactley my point. But you seem to think logic is somehow different thatn the rest of these tools. As if it can stand alone. Logic cannot produce results alone, it can only produce deductions. Logic can also produce faulty results and seemingly good conclusions that actually dont apply to the real world. The real danger of logic is that when it is 100% wrong, it still seems to make sense.
Por Ejemplo: Logic will tell us: If I go faster I will get there quicker. Wrong. Thus far science tells us that if you go too fast, you will warp the flow of time enough to actually slow you down. While this of coarse needs to be tested and logic may still prevail in this case, you can at least get my point.
Since light-speed travel and balck holes and god all bend the rules of what we know about science and the universe, it is easy to assume that logical reasoning will lead us easily into false conclusions in reagards to things we dont' understand. Simply because we are making assumptions in our own reasoning that we feel are safe assumptions. The same kind of reasoning that is seemingly self evident here, MAY be incorrect when applied to the real world.
This same seemingly self-evident reasoning is what I am refuting about yours and the authors claims. Logic can get us into trouble.
STRONGER NOW SAID: You misrepresent what I said. I believe free will describes the ability to act, whether or not a cosequence to the action exists.
REPLY: Sorry, I did not mean to misrepresent you. I guess I misunderstood. However I would like to say there is no such thing as an action that does not have a consequence. While yes, there is the possibility that "actual good' does not exist within absolute truth, I was simply speaking under the hypothetical that it does. When I am making assumptions in my arguments, I am trying to do it to make a point. I usually try to state when I am making assumptions.
It is my 'belief' that if there is a god, there is 'actual good', for some reasons that I've stated. But you needn't believe this. Nor am I trying to convince you of this.
STRONGER NOW SAID: Now, as for an invisible, conscious, supreme being that is not self-refuting, you are right, no one can say such a being is disproven with certainty. However, we certainly can say that such a being, or "God", does remain UNproven. Do you see the difference between the two?...disproven, and unproven?
REPLY: Yes I do. And Thank you. I am glad that we can finally agree on what I've been trying to get across. You cannot disprove God, nor can you Prove he exists. Therefore as you say, he remains unproven, but not disproven. My point exactly.
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
I would like to add stronger now that my point is that the author of this column disagrees with you. He is saying that Can prove that God does not exist.
You seem to disagree with him. Is this true?
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
Chimera' misquotes Stronger Now, as it was I who stated the following:
Me..." 'Atheism' is not a 'belief'; it is lack of belief. Projecting what you think 'Atheism' means will not work in this case. Insisting that the lack of belief is 'a belief' is redundant, unnecessary, and is fallacious reasoning."
Chimera' responds:
RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S COLLEGE DICTIONARY:
Atheism: The doctrine or BELIEF that there is no God.
Fine....
Atheist: noun 1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.[bold added]
(ref: Americian Heritage)
Dear Chimera',
"Theism" is the belief in God, yes? I hope you'll agree to that much. Putting the prefix "A" on "theism", is the same as putting the prefix "A" on other words, like "sexual", or "moral". So, a-sexual, or asexual, means NO sex. Likewise, putting the prefix "A" on "moral" means not having morals. Welp, the same holds true for A-theism, or Atheism...i.e..NO theism, or more concisely, NO BELIEF in "God"/gods. If you obstinately want to argue the point, then perhaps we can solve it with this simple test:
If I ask you if you belief in the Great Pumpkin, and loosely assuming you don't, which of the following answers best represents how you might answer:
a) "No, boom', I don't believe in the Great Pumpkin." ?
or.....
b) "Why YES, boom'!!..I DO believe that the Great Pumpkin doesn't exist!" ?
Suggestions: Be honest, and answer with "a", or "b".
You continue....You [are] not even addressing my issue.
Bullshit. You've given an executive summary of your "issue" more than once, and I've addressed it directly each and every time. Let's review:
Previously, you said:
Quote: **"Anyway, [I] stand by my point. The author of this blog does not know that there is no god."[emphasis added]
And again, here is my response to this in its entirety:
"We know that objects and/or beings that have attributes assigned to them that contradict, or by their very concept, have attributes that contradict, cannot exist. A few examples of some of these beings and objects are 'married bachelors' and 'square circles', respectively.
Do you follow so far?
The author is primarily focusing on definitions of "God" where human beings come along and assign attributes..i.e..personality traits, personal capabilities, etc., that CONTRADICT. He covers this extensively. In other words, if 'God' is claimed to be both circular and square, we know no such 'God' can exist. 'Get it?"
I can only conclude that you do NOT "get it". If I'm wrong, then please feel free to pick out which part you take issue with(of the above quoted), and explain in logical terms why you take issue with it.
You continue....As for the 'premise' of mine that you refer to. That is actually a 'hypothetcal argument', just like most of the authors and yours. Something you use to support a premise but if taken in the wrong circumstance or light, obvisouly you canpoke holes in it. I am not trying to convince you of that. I'm trying to make points.[emphasis added]
Yes!!...quote, "points". See your statement here**, above.
Chimera'...It is not my 'premise'. My premise thus far has only been addressed by stronger now. Everyone else is circumventing it when they can.
So then your "premise" is, in fact, NOT your "point"? That seems a bit odd.
Chimera'...My premise is still and has only ever been: 'you cannot disprove god.'
Well, I guess that answers that. But 'funny how that "premise" is a mere rewording of your "point", above.
Again, review your "point/premise" if you must, and likewise, then review my refutation(s). Here is a synopsis for your quick review, as I don't trust that you will go back and re-read them, let alone, try to entertain them:
1) IF "god" is defined with, and/or, assigned attributes that contradict logic. We can logically disprove that "god".
2) If, in someone's imagination, an invisible, conscious being exists that contradicts logic, then fine. They are entitled to believe as such.
3) If an invisible, conscious being that is not self-refuting exists in reality, then no, we cannot "disprove" it. However, no one, including the author, is saying that such an incomprehensible being is disproven.
4) If a "god" as described in "3" cannot be disproven, it doesn't mean that such a being exists by default. That premise is a non-sequitur argument...i.e..if you cannot disprove "X", then "X" is true.
Let me know what I've "circumvented", and how. Thanks.
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
Boom,
As I obviously missed the line that divided Stronger Now's and your comment. I am withdrawing my last statement directed toward you since you obviously HAVE attempeted to address my issue, and I hope Stronger Now can see from your post that I obvioulsy should have been referring to you in some of my responses rather than him.
I guess sorry for the confusion.
So no you haven't circumvented.
stronger now
· 1 year ago
O.k. I'm going to bail after this I think.
"The same kind of reasoning that is seemingly self evident here, MAY be incorrect when applied to the real world."
and:
"Logic can get us into trouble."
In a reply to Boom' you said:
"You are simply wrong [Boomslang]. I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this. But not only does the dictionary back me up that Atheism is in fact a beliefe system, Athiesm is a belief system because it is based on things you don't really know."
In this little exchange you have made the assumtion that led you to an incorrect answer. Do you see what it was. It was when you thought that RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S COLLEGE DICTIONARY is somehow infallible. Look up the definition of atheism in several different dictionaries and you'll get different definitions. But first play along with Boomslang and answer the great pumpkin question please.
"However I would like to say there is no such thing as an action that does not have a consequence."
True. But I was thinking about a punishment as the cosequence. I'll try not to make that mistake again.
Boom' concerning the free will thing:"If he/she said such a thing, then I must've missed it.
What chimerafilm actually said was:
"Assuming that we are supposed to have free will and the will to choose. And that god wants us to grow to be spiritually “good”. There is a very good reason that a God could never reveal his existence to us. If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have? He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate."
But by now this is beating a dead horse. Unless chimerafilm still believes this.
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
Okay, Stronger'..thanks for referencing the original [Chimerafilm]statement in question. It essentially seeks to make the same claim as your paraphrazing of it, and thus, it is still equally fallacious.
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
To be honest. From reading all of your statements, I think we actually agree on the big points here and are still managing to pick apart each others arguments for one reason or another.
You are right essentially, we would still have free will despite knowing that there is a God. But what I should have said is that our thinking would be influenced. You have to admit that. for example, If you knew there was a God, when bad things happened, you would no longer just deal with them. You would be thinking, Why would God do this? A lot of people wouldn't really be independent anymore. My point being that perhaps God would try to avoid this for one reason or another. Can you at least see what I'm saying?
As far as beliefs. Yes you can look Athiesm up in different dictionaries. I think of Athiesm as a belief system because it involves making a choice and taking a stand. Agnostisicm is closer to a lack of belief than Athiesm in my book. I just don't get why I was referred to as having "fallascious reasoning" and "Projecting by beliefs" about Atheism for syaing this. My point was that it is still based on what you 'think'.
Anyway, Like I said. I still don't think at the root of this, we even disagree. So unless someone has more too add...
chimerafilm
· 1 year ago
To be honest. From reading all of your statements, I think we actually agree on the big points here and are still managing to pick apart each others arguments for one reason or another.
You are right essentially, we would still have free will despite knowing that there is a God. But what I should have said is that our thinking would be influenced. You have to admit that. for example, If you knew there was a God, when bad things happened, you would no longer just deal with them. You would be thinking, Why would God do this? A lot of people wouldn't really be independent anymore. My point being that perhaps God would try to avoid this for one reason or another. Can you at least see what I'm saying?
As far as beliefs. Yes you can look Athiesm up in different dictionaries. I think of Athiesm as a belief system because it involves making a choice and taking a stand. Agnostisicm is closer to a lack of belief than Athiesm in my book. I just don't get why I was referred to as having "fallascious reasoning" and "Projecting by beliefs" about Atheism for syaing this. My point was that it is still based on what you 'think'.
Anyway, Like I said. I still don't think at the root of this, we even disagree. So unless someone has more too add...
meyer
· 1 year ago
the problem about your argumentt is that it isint balanced...when I read it I was like what about this?and this?and that?that baisicly for me as a christian disproofs your argument...I was an athiest at a time of my life untill my christian sister gave me a book called 'Why I believe' ita a 'theory'(how you guys like to use as a term) for the proof of God....Science...ok the thing we as mankind use science for and what we learned from is AMAZING I know BUT... Somthing like god is ABOVE science..its spiritual its not part of the earths or universe existance its a SPIRIT!!but forget that theories cuz that wont convice you huys beccause im sorry to say you all are ingorrant on such topics but I can say one last thing how I KNOW that god is real...and that is he lives inside me,I can FEEL hes love in me, I can sense the preccence of hes angels watching over me BUT the most wonderfull thing that your science cant explain is that I can HEAR hes voice talking to me and building a relationship up with and trust me Hes a COOL GUY!!! :-)
sorry for adding this comment on anti-christain website but that is what god wanted from me
god bless
sconnor
· 1 year ago
meyer,
the problem about your argumentt is that it isint balanced...when I read it I was like what about this?and this?and that?
Excellent refutation, very articulate -- I was astounded by the profundity of your arguments and the awesome wisdom and insight, you demonstrated. There's no doubt you are, well educated, or on your way to obtaining a doctorate, because, most assuredly, the world needs an intellect of your obvious, caliber and magnitude. ...this? and this? and that? and this? and like this, and like, that and this and like and like and like...
...and that is he lives inside me.
That's right; that's exactly, where god resides, in the abyss of your deluded, mind, nothing but a human construct -- a figment of your imagination.
sorry for adding this comment on anti-christain website but that is what god wanted from me
Wow, your god sure gives you the challenging tasks, doesn't he? Maybe, tomorrow, god will teach you how to tie your shoes or god wants something from you, that's really, challenging, like learning how to spell -- at least, with these task, you will have accomplished something.
--S.
cipher
· 1 year ago
Meyer,
I'm quite certain that science can explain why you hear God talking to you.
Tell your doctor he needs to adjust your medication.
buffettphan
· 1 year ago
Meyer,
For you enlightenment (that is, if your god "wants" you to re-visit our site.....)
7 Causes of Hearing Voices Falling asleep - some people hear their name called. Psychiatric disorders - Hearing voices Psychological disorders - Hearing voices Psychosis Psychotic depression Schizophrenia See also hallucinations
Meyer: "Somthing like god is ABOVE science..its spiritual its not part of the earths or universe existance its a SPIRIT!!"
No evidence for the existence of "spirit".
"im sorry to say you all are ingorrant on such topics..."
Fuck you (and your lousy spelling, too).
"sorry for adding this comment on anti-christain website but that is what god wanted from me..."
No, that is what *you* wanted from you, as this god you speak to is the product of your own imagination. (And we're not in the business of accepting apologies from people who blame their own bad behaviour on an invisible friend.)
Pay very close attention to the list that Buffetphan so thoughtfully provided. If you're hearing actual voices while in a waking state, get professional help immediately.
Dave8
· 1 year ago
Meyer... I recall a quote, as I read your comment...
This man is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot.
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
....but I can say one last thing how I KNOW that god is real...and that is he lives inside me.
Lucky the Leprechaun kicked the Universe into existence with His magical, buckled shoe. Lucky Jr., His invisible Son, lives in my pancreas. He answers me when I ask for good luck. But sometimes the answer is "no". But I still have faith that Lucky loves me, because sometimes I find little clovers in my breakfast cereal! Praise Lucky!
Lucky bless you all!
JayH
· 1 year ago
It's interesting that you all trust your own level of intellect on such a significant subject. Quite possibly the only subject you should ever care about. If you think that your life on earth is it, then you better understand the magnitude of what your "theory" is.
Please don't trust your own thoughts - you're not that smart! None of us are...
I question my faith like anyone, but at least I keep challenging myself to learn more.
Barb
· 1 year ago
Sorry, but I turned my mind over to the Opus Dei once and I will NEVER allow ANYONE to interpret for me. My spiritual leaders said, "Christ is a demanding spouse. You don't have to question. Trust us. You are not fit to lean on your own understanding." I ended up in a severe depression, anorexic and obsessed wtih enduring savage pain for Christ. NEVER again. I will do my own thinking. I'd risk hell for an infinitesimal amount of freedom. Either you have no idea what a cult is or you are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome: You have identified with your captors.
Your words are terrifying.
BB
sconnor
· 1 year ago
jay,
Please don't trust your own thoughts - you're not that smart! None of us are...
Ummmmmmm........ then, how do you trust what you think?
...you better understand the magnitude of what your "theory" is.
Really? Tell me what is your understanding of the magnitude of the "theory" and explain how you can trust your thoughts, on the subject.
--S.
AtheistToothFairy
· 1 year ago
Jay H: "Please don't trust your own thoughts - you're not that smart! None of us are..."
We are smart enough to 'know' your god is a mere myth and until some credible evidence comes along to prove we are wrong, why should we take the god-belief position that offers zero evidence on it's side?
Now go kiss your imaginary mental god and make him happy to have such a blind sheep follower.
ATF (Who trust his own thoughts and judgment, a thousand times more than some ancient convoluted bible book)
Monkeys
· 1 year ago
JayH
So we should trust your self-evident and self-admittedly limited thoughts on the subject? No thanks.
Noobie
· 1 year ago
It is said in the Bible that foolish men and women will try to decieve themselves and others by supressing the Word of God, even though they know the Word is true. It is also said that foolish men/ women do not believe in God. Then tell me this. How did we come to be--in a sense of being made with all our organs and functionings in the right place with the right purpose? If you believe in "Evolution," explain why we do not see semi-creatured fossils? Explain to me why we do not see macro- evolution taking place now. Did you know that everyone is related, for we all came from Adam and Eve, hence we are all sinners, because they passed their sins down to us. Did you know that the events in the Bible are all true and the places are infact real? Did you know that every religion on earth is somehow related with a sense of the first man and woman to the shifting of people from The Tower of Babel? I laughed at what you wrote, because it seems to be that you are in denial. I am not forcing my faith on you, but I pray that God changes your heart and thinking. I do not want you to die, then realize God is real. That would be to late. Take care.
Monkeys
· 1 year ago
Did you know you made so many assertions and not a single shred of verifiable evidence?
Did you know that there is evidence for evolution and that creationist are distorting the science? Did you know your argument of "semi-creatured fossils" is as illogical as Zeno's paradox and we do have "transitional" fossils? Did you know that we were all heirs of Prometheus who passed the divine fire to us? Did you know archaeology has disputed the Bible's accuracy and the Bible contradicts itself in several places? Did you know that the Bible has been edited many times throughout the century? It is said in the Koran that many will be misled by false religions like Noobie's one. Did you know Allah created the world? Did you know Loki is going to destroy it? Did you know Nostradamus prophecies all have come true? (No evidence needed for my claims here just like Noobie)
I laugh at what you wrote cause its peurile and misinformed.
I dont want you to die - but its going to happen one day and God wont appear to you. I would ask you to be free from your zombie religion but then it would be too late. Take care.
sconnor
· 1 year ago
Sing it with me noobie; Fairy tales ~ will ~ come ~ true ~ they ~ can ~ happen ~ to ~ you ~ when ~ you're ~ ignorant ~ at ~ heart.
--S.
Noobie
· 1 year ago
God doesn't need to prove Himself to you anymore than he already has. Just look around you. He made a general revelation of the nature and beauty He has created. He does not need to show Himself personally to you or me, because we are insignificant.
I also dislike when people say that they believed in God, but when something tragic happened, they don't believe in Him anymore. Seems like you never believed or had faith in God (Jesus) in the first place. There are reasons why life is so stressful. It is to help excercise our faith and rely on Him. Also, it is OUR fault that the world is like this. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. But we should be grateful, because although He has punished us all, He also has made ways to make life more managable, but with some pain. (God is just, and he is not going to allow us to escape from disobeying Him) God does not cause harm. In fact, he has given you and me more blessings than we deserve. Satan and his demons are the ones that caused harm. In fact they were the ones that harmed Adam and Eve by enticing them. Please people, stop making excuses. God is real and real as can be!
AtheistToothFairy
· 1 year ago
Hey deluded Noobie xtian,
Your fundie brainwashed 'mind' is beyond our help, so go preach elsewhere. We've heard everything you've said, time and time again, and it holds-no-water with us.
FYI: If you say god causes no harm, then I suggest you read the OT and not just skim it!
"Excuses"? I beg to differ, as you xtians are the one's who need excuses to keep your faith and it's book, alive. The rest of us see clear reasons why your god cannot exist, all without making hundreds of lame excuses like you fundy-bots love to do.
ATF (Who wonders what primitive century Noobie typed this comment from?)
Monkeys
· 1 year ago
I vote the 12th century AD - its funny that apologetics then and now are almost the same. Always the same arguments just redressed in different formats. Funny actually that a good number of these arguments are from Pagan or Arab sources.
Actually if not for science progressing - apologetics would be completely stagnant. Religion has always only been nothing but reactionary. Just look what they tried to do to Galileo. the very that there are new theories in Biology and Physics has gotten all these Xtians working up a sweat trying to figure out rhetorical tactics in order to counter them. Xtian theories worked well till we learned more - and the more we learn the more strident the Xtian attacks on learning become. Its telling that a position is weak when it depends on ignorance and obedience to an authority that is exempt from proof.
The very fact that Xtians cant debate on the facts of evolution with independent peer-reviewed publications but create special interest lobbying groups to participate in the culture wars already shows that they are not interested in winning the argument based on truth but by marketing. When one requires mob action to win an argument, it usually means your argument is unsound.
AtheistToothFairy
· 1 year ago
Monkeys: I vote the 12th century AD - its funny that apologetics then and now are almost the same.
Monkeys, You really make some good points in this post.
>Actually if not for science progressing - apologetics would be completely stagnant.
Some might say that apologetics are stagnant anyway <g>
>Religion has always only been nothing but reactionary. Just look what they tried to do to Galileo.
Oh but it's okay, because the church gave Galileo a "pardon" a few years back. Ah, but did anyone let Galileo know about that, right?
>the very that there are new theories in Biology and Physics has gotten all these Xtians working up a sweat trying to figure out rhetorical tactics in order to counter them.
I have to believe that a time is coming, where they'll have very little left in their arsenal of apologetics to counter science/history with. They have already gone from having live ammo, to having mere 4th of July sparklers, to fight with.
> Its telling that a position is weak when it depends on ignorance and obedience to an authority that is exempt from proof.
Yes, and lots of wishful thinking as well. Of course, it's all about skating around the fears they hold, that they can never face, so for them it's better to live a huge lie I suppose.
>The very fact that Xtians cant debate on the facts of evolution with independent peer-reviewed publications but create special interest lobbying groups to participate in the culture wars already shows that they are not interested in winning the argument based on truth but by marketing. When one requires mob action to win an argument, it usually means your argument is unsound
It sure reminds me of the tobacco lobbying groups that once tried so hard to convince everyone that smoking wasn't harmful. Like xtians, they to also had no evidence (other than falsified) to present, so they couldn't fight oranges with oranges and had to resort to underhanded techniques to try and keep their industry afloat.
It's very telling that fundies have to jump through so many hoops when it comes to discounting evolution, and yet 99% of them have never even studied the theory (beyond what their own god-propagandist give them to read).
They never see verified god-healings, yet refuse to look too closely at them, or chance noticing that nothing miraculous has occurred.
They never see prayer answered, other than to force-fit some coincidence in their lives into their prayer equation. Yet they are sure god is right there answering their own prayers at times and when he doesn't seem to, they are well versed in excuses as to why god didn't.
The term "apologetics" is very telling if you ask me. If you have no facts to present, then all you have left at your disposal are apologies to offer for your lack of evidence. e.g. I apologize for not having credible proof, but just take my word for it anyway, god is real.
It really does sicken me at times to watch them squirm like worms and yet be totally unyielding to the evidence of reality !!
ATF (Who see's a xtian apologist in the same realm as a 2 year old, chocolate-faced toddler, who keeps denying to you that they ate that delicious forbidden chocolate cookie)
Monkeys
· 1 year ago
I agree with your ATF, any discipline that starts of with presupposing its conclusion (the Xtian God exists) is handicapped when compared to any other disciple that takes a decidedly more mature position and does not presuppose supernatural position in order to discover the truth.
Monkeys
· 1 year ago
God does not exist Noobie. It is a mental self-defense mechanism for you so that you can survive in a world you cannot comprehend on its own. The world and all its complexities has been explained and always abdly throughout history by people dependent on myths and fables. We need to lie to ourselves because we are afraid of our own weakness. Thats why you feel guilty all the time - you secretly know you are weak not because you are a sinner but because you are so alone, unprotected and vulnerable in the world. You need a bedtime story parent to help you exist through this horrible loneliness. he exists in your mind so you can feel good about yourself. When something bad happens to others - you feel good that it didnt happen to you - because God loves you (a.k.a you actually are self-absorbed and selfish) If something happens to you - you are stuck only to turn to your imaginary friend. he is your ego - so in a sense you are still relying ultimately on yourself and your pride. This imaginary friend is the foundation for yourself - if you didnt keep making him up - your whole personality would collapse. You would be what you truly are - Deeply insecure and afraid of life. That is why you dont like people saying they dont believe in your God (who is you) - because they are actually attacking your ego. Dont worry its natural - most prideful people act that way - just like what you are doing. You are right that its all your fault - you decided to feel mentally and emotionally to this fictional friend (God) and you need to feel guilty for it. You cant understand why there is pain in your life so you rationalize it by creating imaginary enemies for your imaginary friends. That allows you to explain why this fictional friend that loves you (acyually you loving yourself) actually is unable to do anything "special" for you directly.
In the end - your life is going to be spent making excuses for your imaginary friend - never realising that the imgainary friend is actually your own fears and inadequacies, your pride and anger. God is real to you because it actually are the parts of your life you cannot comprehend.
But have faith! Dont think!! Keep misinterpreting your fears and hopes as the purview of your imaginary friends. ancient people have done that all the time. But just before you die - you will feel the hollow emptiness when you realize there is no special place waiting for you - Just the gathering darkness. In that split second your whole life would have been a complete lie - you will only realize it at the very end.
Stronger_Now
· 1 year ago
Noobie, if you'd have bothered to read the bible, you'd have noticed that it contradicts most of what you claim to know about the biblegod and other fantasy creatures. Nature reveals nature, not the supernatural. Look around you, is there anything that poofed into existence by supernatural means? If you say "yes", please provide credible evidence for the supernatural.
Fairytales don't count.
sconnor
· 1 year ago
noobie, sing it again; same as the first: Fairy tales ~ will ~ come ~ true ~ they ~ can ~ happen ~ to ~ you ~ when ~ you're ~ ignorant ~ at ~ heart.
--S.
Philip
· 1 year ago
We're so insignificant that God actually gives a shit whether we spend our lives telling Him He's great all the time. Yep.
XpastorDan
· 1 year ago
Monkeys
you are a poo poo face. I don't know what you say. You talk with big words. Jesuz does not like big words.Jesus loves me, this I know, cuz the bibo tell me so! You will go to hell. You too AFT. Don't make fun of me. I smart. Jesuz make me smart. I go to heaben when I die. You are doo doo heads!
Noobie
AtheistToothFairy
· 1 year ago
XPD-Noobie,
Jebus does-int lub U, unless he's hungry.
The only 'bibo' you should be using, is the one you where whilst eatin yur grits.
Our wurds ain't too big. Mine are the same size on my monitor as the one's on yur rabbit-ear TV box would be.
My name is ATF not AFT. AFT is yur female kissing-cuzin's initials.
Dont believeee all that dribble bout hell being a bad place. All the funner peoples will be there and we can have big party time, but only if you bring da beer and chips.
ATF (Who thinks he just lost 20 IQ points, in writing this comment...haha)
Noobie
· 1 year ago
Science does not and cannot explain everything. That is a fact! When you compare the Bible and Evolution, the Bible gives a more solid foundation of general science, history, and spiritual needs. It also gives information about our planet and the universe before scientist could even study them. For example, Isa. 40: 22; Job 26: 7 explained that the earth is a sphere suspended in space. Before we knew that fact, people thought the earth was flat. Job 36: 27-28; Eccles 1:7; Amos 5:8 explains that the water cycle keeps the land watered. The Bible explained this before scientist could understand the reason we have rain. Ps 8:8 explains that the ocean currents flow through the sea. This explains why we have different currents in different locations. (also explain why ocean-migration is so possible) Lev 17:11 explains that blood sustains life. In Midieveal times, doctors would use leeches because they thought it would help the sick, infact, it backfired. You know why, because of blood loss. (And blood is needed to fight infections) Job 22: 12; Gen 15:5, 22: 17; Jer. 33:22 explains that the stars are incredibly distant from the earth and cannot be numbered. The Bible explained this before scientist ever know. Eccles. 1:6 explains the winds form a circular system. This explain why we have different air currents of northen and souther hemisphere. (This also give way to how tornadoes are created) Gen. 2:7, 3: 19; Ps. 103: 14 explains that man's body is composed of the same materials as the earth. This explains the reason that when we die, we turn back to soul. It is also a fact because we are infact composed of materials such as calcium, and iron. These examples in fact proves creationism. The Bible shows prove ,and sesnible scientist study and have found that these proves are real and accurate! Evolution on the other hand is a mix of mis-match and many missing links. It explains that things evolve for the better, yet how is that possible. There are some animals for example that contridict that statement. For expample the giraffe. If things evolve for the better, then why aren't all the giraffes living today? It would have to take millions of years for the girrafes' body to regulate blood flow to the brain when kneeling or for growing a neck that long without being sick or dead for it to be as it is now. If you believe in Evolution, then there wouldn't be giraffes. The Bible also expained that dianours/dragons existed for in the book of Job chapter 40, they talked about behemoths. Also, we all came from Adam and Eve for the Bible stated that Eve bore sons and DAUGHTERS (Gen. 5:4). Incest was infact normla then, until the Book of Leviticus when God commanded all to not do such a thing and marry their distant relatives instead of close ones. I find this as a sensible thing for if we married our close relatives, our offsprings would be most likely irregular. We need our distant relatives DNA to mask the weak DNA. It is also stated in the Bible, the Book of Revelation, that in the end times, people will turn away from God and do what they find pleaseing to them. I can only do so much for you to underterstand that God/Jesus is true and real. For I do not want you to punished when you die for that will be too late. God is real. The wind is real, yet you can't see it. God is real because he shows us prove, yet you can't see him unless you saw Jesus Himself. When Thomas, one of Jeus disciples in the Bible saw Jesus after his resurrection, he had noticed that Jesus was infact the son of God for he put his hands in Jesus wonds. Jesus told him that he is happy that Thomas believes, yet disappointed, because Thomas doubted. Jesus also said that He will be please with those who do not see Him, yet obey Him and trust and follow Him because it takes true faith to do so. And it takes true faith to enter in the kindom of heaven. Trust me, if you are an unbeliever or if you are unsure, please join a church, ask the pastor questions and learn to pray. You will find a complete difference in your life and it will be all for the better. You can never know unless you try. It only takes that one baby-step to achieve a true relationship with God/ Jesus.
AtheistToothFairy
· 1 year ago
My first reaction to this Noobie post: <<<< Smack forehead with palm of hand >>>>
i.e. Nonsense, on top of more nonsense...WOW !!
ATF (Who might get to this later, but not now)
TheOtherRainMan
· 1 year ago
Dear Fundie,
Please do NOT quote the bible.
We here do not believe that the bible is God's word (not one bit) and any attempts by using the bible will be laughed at.
Also, please disprove the following gods/goddesses without quoting the bible. If your God is the only god, then this should be a breeze.
Allah Apollo Dionysus Horus Helios Juno Loki Mars Zeus
Disprove ALL of these gods please, not just two or three.
- TORM (Who wants fundies to learn how to format their paragraphs)
Monkeys
· 1 year ago
PART 1 What Noobie leaves out in his selective understanding of the Bible so he can selectively plead his case
Flat earth - One of many verses Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it Pillars hold up earth Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. The earth does not move Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved Isa 40:22 does not say it is a sphere - the direct translation of the word chugh is circular circuit - which is flat. In another verse where a sphere is described in the bible - a different Hebrew word is used. So it is not referring to a sphere. Joshua 10:13 The sun stood still, and the moon stayed. - care to explain that?
Accuracy of Job on the hydrologic cycle hail and snow stored in storehouses Job 38:22 Have you entered the storehouses of the snow, or have you seen the storehouses of the hail? Where are those warehouses Noobie? Rain stored in separate place in sky Genesis 7:11-12[O]n that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. And rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights. Genesis 1: 6-7 And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. Furthermore actually there is a translation problem with Job 36:27-28 - gara is the hebrew word used and that means to withdraw or diminish but modern translations say distill. Furthermore its referent may mean God diminishes the rivers and not rainwater itself. So modern translations inteprete what is a problematic text to fit with modern science!! Btw Greek philosophers have hydrologic cycles describes several thousands years ago and China/Egypt both were taking sophisticated hyrdologic measurements.
What Bible says about oceans Jeremiah 51:36 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will plead thy cause, and take vengeance for thee; and I will dry up her sea, and make her springs dry. Thats contradictory to the hydrologic cycle - by saying that oceans are replenished by a spring. Furthermore Ps 8:8 was originally translated as paths of the sea - youhave chosen to interprete it as ocean currents but as it stands its a metaphor that can be describe navigational routes known to Phoenicians or Egyptians to already observable routes in which birds fly across water masses.
Useless "scientific" revelations Lev 17:11about blood. Erm.... Doesnt any culture and civilisation know that blood is kinda essential to life? Are you kidding me that this is somehow a revelation. Check out the tons of older near-Eastern cultures obsessed with blood and its link to life.
Job 22: 12; Gen 15:5, 22: 17; Jer. 33:22 - stars are innumerable and far away - dont need any Book to tell me that - anyone who looks in the sky will say so. The OT was collated in 500 BCE and by that time many cultures in the region had been interested in the skies. Not exclusive to the Bible - plus nothing really scientific displayed here - just observation any non-blind human can make.
PART 2 Since the other respondents here have more than adequately shown your examples to be a pack of lies - lets begin with a list of what the Bible gets WRONG.
Leviticus 11:13-19 These are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten , . . . the eagle, and . . . the bat. The bat is a bird LOL! Obviously God does not even know his own creation.
Leviticus 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. There are birds at that time with four legs! Please show me the fossil record Mr noobie - evolutionary expert!
Leviticus 11:22-23 These ye may eat; the locust...and the beetle...and the grasshopper. But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. Insects have four legs......really? Look at your nearest bug and tell me how many legs you see.
Deuteronomy 32.11 As the eagle taketh her young and bearth them on her wings. Eagles bear their young on their wings - what utter nonsense.
I Kings 7:23 He then made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from brim to brim. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely. Pi =3!?! haha any schoolkid can debunk the Bible. if the Bible cant get pass simple mathematics why should we expect it to be any better at biology or cosmology?
2nd Kings 20:11 And Isaiah … brought the shadow back ten steps, by which the sun had declined on the dial of Ahaz. The sun can reverse course! Here the sun reverses 10 degrees - wow!
Matthew 13:31-32 Jesus said, The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree. Mustard seed is not the smallest seed in the world - it is the orchid seed. Did Jesus get his facts wrong??? Can God be mistaken? Oooooh
The Bible mentions cockatrices, dragons and unicorns - just like fantasy books like Lord of the Rings or the Wizard of Earthsea. See any connection? They are all just fantasies. Furthermore if you say they exist - provide fossil record for the unicorn and the cockatrice?
Your Bible proves itself inconsistent and dead wrong when it comes to certain scientific facts and the "special revelations" you claim are not consistent with the original translations and are at best merely ambiguous metaphors. Here is your problem - your assumptions A.) you believe God is all-knowing B.) you believe the Bible is directly inspired by God
it follows C.) the Bible must be inerrant on every single claim since God is all-knowing
However - this claim is falsifiable if a single claim in the Bible is false eg.) if insects do not have 4 legs - then the Bible is not inerrant!
So you are left with the sad and tiring task of making endless excuses and lies - all we need to do is show one error to show that your position is wrong. We dont have to know everything - we just need to know that the Bible is not perfect and hence cannot come from a perfect being. Luckily science does not claim perfect knowledge and hence can adjust his claims based on the dictates of evidence. Evidence that slowly accumulates and makes the Biblical claims seem more and more anachronistic as the years go by.
Noobie - I know how difficult it is for you to be a Christian. I recommend finding a nice hole somewhere where you will never come across another word that contradicts your imaginary friend. You may be living a lie - but at least you will be happy in your deep dark hole. Plus it doubles up as a pre-made tomb - you are mentally in one already. Take that great leap of faith Noobie - Save God by sacrificing your mind!
sconnor
· 1 year ago
noobie,
For example, Isa. 40: 22; Job 26: 7 explained that the earth is a sphere
WRONG -- nowhere in the bible does it say the earth is a sphere. It says the earth is a circle. The reason people back then thought it was a flat circle is because when they climbed the highest peak and surveyed the land by spinning around it was perceived as a circle. Your strained conclusion that a circle is a sphere is like saying a square is a cube.
Job 36: 27-28; Eccles 1:7; Amos 5:8 explains that the water cycle keeps the land watered.
WRONG -- the primitive people of the bible had no idea what evaporation, condensation, precipitation was. All they knew -- from observation -- was that when it got cloudy it was potentially going to rain. It is not scientific to say god put the rain in the clouds.
Ps 8:8 explains that the ocean currents flow through the sea. This explains why we have different currents in different locations.
WRONG -- The author of Psalm 8:8 was only talking about how man ruled over the animals of the land and all the ocean creatures that passes along the paths of the sea -- NO OCEAN CURRENTS.
Lev 17:11 explains that blood sustains life.
DER? NO KIDDING. Nothing profound here. When a barbaric culture uses weapons like daggers and swords to kill people it isn't difficult to ascertain that when your blood flows out of your body, you become pasty and sallow, you go unconscious and then die.
Job 22: 12; Gen 15:5, 22: 17; Jer. 33:22 explains that the stars are incredibly distant from the earth and cannot be numbered.
Yep, Again nothing profound. What other observation could they have come up with? Additionally, the distance of those stars prove the earth is older then 6,000-10,000 years old because some stars and galaxies are millions and billions of light years away.
Eccles. 1:6 explains the winds form a circular system. This explain why we have different air currents of northen and souther hemisphere. (This also give way to how tornadoes are created)
WRONG -- the only thing it proves is they can tell by observation that the wind can be blowing from the south and from the north and they can also tell by observation that wind can swirl. This in no way describes how tornadoes are created. You would think that the creator of the entire universe could describe accurately how tornadoes form.
Too bad the creator of the universe could NOT describe, accurately, how tornadoes form, like our scientist can:
Tornadoes are generally formed in a thunderstorm. Thundershowers this violent require a complex mix of environmental conditions but usually include: a) very warm, humid air, b) very cool, dry air to the west and south, c) air to the west trying to replace the warm, moist air (a front moving in), c) upper level (high in the sky) conditions that first hold down warmer air from rising and then later, a complete reverse in conditions that let the warm air rise very fast and very far, and d) an upper level wind stream to move the air away from the rising column.
Gen. 2:7, 3: 19; Ps. 103: 14 explains that man's body is composed of the same materials as the earth
WRONG -- it only tells us god made us from soil or dust. It would be something though if the creator of the universe could have broke it down and told us exactly what we are composed of: Oxygen (65%) Carbon (18%) Hydrogen (10%) Nitrogen (3%) Calcium (1.5%) Phosphorus (1.0%) Potassium (0.35%) Sulfur (0.25%) Sodium (0.15%) Magnesium (0.05%) Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron (0.70%) Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, Bromine (trace amounts) Most of the human body is made up of water, H2O, with cells consisting of 65-90% water by weight. Therefore, it isn't surprising that most of a human body's mass is oxygen.
GOD GOT IT WRONG -- we are mostly made out of water not dirt or dust.
These examples in fact proves creationism.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha -- you are a complete ignoramus.
It explains that things evolve for the better
WRONG -- it doesn't say that at all. This only proves your ignorance to what evolution is. Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. A cave fish will lose it's ability to see over time -- this is a result -- not better or worse.
The Bible also expained that dianours/dragons existed for in the book of Job chapter 40, they talked about behemoths.
WRONG -- the exact meaning of the Hebrew word "twmhb", translated as behemoth, is not known. Most translations stick with an elephant or hippopotamus.
It is also stated in the Bible, the Book of Revelation, that in the end times, people will turn away from God and do what they find pleaseing to them.
Throughout the history, of the world, people have turned away from god. The entire bible is about people turning away from god. It's been a constant.
The wind is real, yet you can't see it.
WRONG -- There are real physical aspects to air. Air is made up from molecules composed from 78% Nitrogen, 20% Oxygen, .93% Argon, .038% Carbon Dioxide and traces of other gases. Elements, molecules and atoms have been seen for quite some time now, with the invention of a microscope and electron microscope. You can also see air every time you look at the atmosphere. When the sun reflects off the atmosphere, the light -- using the correct term -- is "scattered" by the molecules in the air. Seeing the blue sky is seeing the air. Also if you have ever seen a mirage on a hot road while you were driving, those almost transparent wavy lines are the updraft of hot air. Empirical evidence exists, to the existence of air.
Can you see God? Is there empirical evidence?
Jesus also said that He will be please with those who do not see Him, yet obey Him and trust and follow Him because it takes true faith to do so. And it takes true faith to enter in the kindom of heaven.
If there was evidence of god existing, you wouldn't need faith.
You can never know unless you try. It only takes that one baby-step to achieve a true relationship with God/ Jesus.
The only relationship you have with god/Jesus is the one taking place in the abyss of your mind -- nothing but a human construct, a figment of your imagination. You are the equivalent of the insane, uneducated, sweaty, preacher who babbles scripture, to push a delusional agenda. All you do is make absurd claims you can't back up, which means they're not even worth the hot air you use to spew such nonsense.
--S.
AtheistToothFairy
· 1 year ago
Noobie (Who smoked way too many "Doobies" today),
It seems my compadres have answered most of this, but let's see if there are any leftovers to munch upon.
[ To BB: Did I spell "compadres" correctly? ]
>Science does not and cannot explain everything. That is a fact!
It doesn't even try to make such a claim. However, at least it doesn't behave as stagnant water, like your bible knowledge does.
> When you compare the Bible and Evolution, the Bible gives a more solid foundation of general science, history, and spiritual needs.
Your bible is inept when it comes to science and history and I'll not bother to explain to you why, as there is plenty of information on that subject all over the web for you to find easily.
Spiritual Needs? Wouldn't that assume we have a spirit, which of course, you have zero proof that we do, right? If you mean spiritual as in something more down-to-earth, then whatever floats your boat bud.
> Job 22: 12; Gen 15:5, 22: 17; Jer. 33:22 explains that the stars are incredibly distant from the earth and cannot be numbered.
Firstly, the fact that these ancient people believed the stars can't be numbered shouldn't surprise anyone, given how many stars one could see in the days before light-pollution ruined the view of the night sky. Guessing that there were lots of stars didn't take any knowledge from any god, that's for sure.
Now where I have a problem is how you make a claim that they knew how "incredibly distant" the stars were, and so let's see if you're correct here on the scripture you quoted to us.
Jer. 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
Nope, nothing here about the distance of stars, only their assumed quantity
Gen 15:5: And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Nothing here either.
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies
Bssst, nothing here either mister Doobie.
Job 22:12 Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are
Out of all your references here, this one is the only one that talks about possible distance of the stars.
So what did they know, based on this piece of scripture?
They knew ONLY that the stars were at a great height from the ground. Does it say they had any idea that stars were no where even close to the earth, or even as near as the other planets in our solar system? NO !!
This statement once again, is clearly written from the perspective of some ancient men and not some special wisdom imparted from any god being.
YOU FAIL !!
>[Evolution] explains that things evolve for the better, yet how is that possible.
Who taught you evolution, because no where do they say that things evolve "for the better". That is a xtian belief as to what evolution says. No biologist would ever make such a statement.
Life evolves to fit the environment it resides in. You might call it 'better', but that word is very subjective and what you might think is better, might not be, and also the reverse.
> There are some animals for example that contridict that statement. For expample the giraffe. If things evolve for the better, then why aren't all the giraffes living today? It would have to take millions of years for the girrafes' body to regulate blood flow to the brain when kneeling or for growing a neck that long without being sick or dead for it to be as it is now. If you believe in Evolution, then there wouldn't be giraffes.
Here is a short article on how giraffes got long necks--- and it wasn't merely to obtain food, as most suppose to be the case.
In a nutshell, this is the crux of the conclusion:
Sexual selection is a more valuable explanation for the evolution of the long neck.Behavioral analysis, courtship rituals, fossil data, and anatomical scaling all provide support for this type of evolutionary model.
> The Bible also expained that dianours/dragons existed for in the book of Job chapter 40, they talked about behemoths.
Okay, first off, dragons never existed. Get over it !!
Dinosaur bones would explain how word got out about giant behemoths and it's not far fetched that some would have easily assumed from such bones, that there must be living-breathing dinosaurs in addition to bones.
With great certainty, there were no giants around in the time of recorded history that your bible book covers. If you wish to believe otherwise, then perhaps you see the Flintstones Cartoon as more of a documentary?
> Also, we all came from Adam and Eve for the Bible stated that Eve bore sons and DAUGHTERS (Gen. 5:4). Incest was infact normla then, until the Book of Leviticus when God commanded all to not do such a thing and marry their distant relatives instead of close ones.
OR...the writers of your bible book, screwed up when they made up this Adam and Eve story....which of course, is much more likely the case.
>It is also stated in the Bible, the Book of Revelation, that in the end times, people will turn away from God and do what they find pleaseing to them
So you find this prophecy something amazing, do you? I guess you don't set your sights very high when it comes to getting much more details in your prophecies of the future, huh?
> I can only do so much for you to underterstand that God/Jesus is true and real.
Actually, there is nothing you can do and your efforts thus far, have done just the opposite and made most of us very glad we got away from such lame outdated thinking and superstitions.
>The wind is real, yet you can't see it.
Did you even bother to see if this old/lame apologetic had been answered a million times already, before you cited it (AGAIN) here? I guess not.
> God is real because he shows us prove, yet you can't see him unless you saw Jesus Himself. When Thomas, one of Jeus disciples in the Bible saw Jesus after his resurrection, he had noticed that Jesus was infact the son of God for he put his hands in Jesus wonds.
Okay, let's suppose there was a jesus (doubtful) and let's further suppose that he really came back from the dead to. So then why did Thomas get first hand proof and yet today we are expected to believe on mere say-so? Why did so MANY throughout your bible book, get to see god's miracles first-hand and sometimes even see god, yet we see nothing like this today?
When did god's standards of proof to us humans get so severely lowered?
> Trust me, if you are an unbeliever or if you are unsure
I wouldn't trust you (and your piece of ancient fiction), if you had the "good housekeeping seal of approval".
> please join a church, ask the pastor questions and learn to pray.
Oh, so one has to LEARN how to pray, or what, god won't hear you praying. Does that mean god has some limits in his abilities to hear prayer?
>You will find a complete difference in your life and it will be all for the better. You can never know unless you try. It only takes that one baby-step to achieve a true relationship with God/ Jesus.
You do realize you are talking to EX-xtians here, some of whom were very dedicated to your jesus at one time in their lives? So why are you preaching at us as if we know nothing about your idiot god and his out-of-wedlock son? (Daddy god didn't bother to marry the virgin Mary, did he?)
I highly suggest Noobie Doobie, that you get a real life and lay off the fantasy stuff for the time being. It really doesn't sit very well with your brain, so it seems.
ATF (Who thinks Noobie needs to find some far better apologetics, and should stop his habit of "LYING FOR JESUS")
Monkeys
· 1 year ago
Noobie do not be angry with the dum-dums on this ignominious website. I shall strike them down with my Lightning-3000-gattling cannon and lay waste to their feeble attempts at disproving my 2000 year old bestselling book ghostwritten by men i drove insane with my in-house Special Effects department. Do not even let a single word of their viper-tongued rants enter your beatific perfect mind (I named it XP30-J) which I designed to be perfectly impervious to reason and rationality. Faith was all the mind was ever built for till Satan put a virus in my goddamn laptop and ermm....imperfected by perfect design. *grumble* Some really teeny weeny minor symptoms may include sin and death - but all in all - I am satisfied with the consumer response. Afterall you can always refer back to my Holy Manual - just ignore all the first bits about me killing people- that was never meant to be in the official biography anyway. You can be rest assured I will never do that today - I satisfy all my aggressive inclinations on those sinners I keep locked away under my bed in a cardboard box called HELL. Just dont tell the missus I still have it OK? - I promised to chuck it away after she caught me playing with my sinners in the bathroom. Get thee to one of my many approved Christian franchises - but beware of those that do not ask you for one-tenth of your livelihood. God likes to get paid - or he will make your life into a subprime mortgage like what he did to Job.
I will deal with these Atheist morons later Noobie. They will pay for their insolence and lack of faith. they will burn in hellish torment beyond what you and I can possibly imagine! Doesnt that make you feel tingly all over? Yeaaahhh........ I understand completely how you feel - I am a proud jealous red-blooded God and my first instinct to every argument is to reach for the Divine toolbox of disasters. Stick with me Noobie and I will try to keep an eye out for you while I am blasting people apart with earthquakes and tsunamis. No guarantees though - they tend to be area-effect suffering and I never been big on precision guided justice - just would make me look weak to the other Gods in the neighborhood. man - I cant stand that Buddha guy - what a self-righteous snob!
But most importantly - Dont use your brain beyond specified design limitations. Try not to think - it will only hurt. Just keep praying and remember - I will always love you.
P.s. just a friendly word of advice - when I was making various men crazy with completely incoherent visions in order to rant about how great I was - i found that those who ranted in paragraphs were actually more useful in convincing others that I was great and existed. If you really want to convince these bunch of ungrateful heathens that i exist - try paragraphs. Keep fighting the good fight Noobie!!
Astreja
· 1 year ago
Noobie, you are painfully ignorant of the real world and its sciences.
In particular, your comments on biology are spectacularly misinformed -- You don't even know the basics of what the Theory of Evolution actually says. No, it does not claim that things "evolve for the better", and if you had actually studied evolutionary biology you would know that.
Furthermore... Whatever makes you think that we'd ever want to become like you, you hapless, superstitious turd-sculptor? You come here as a representative of something that poisoned our lives and the lives of the people around us. We are not interested in going back to that horror.
May you, too, one day see through the myth.
Scott McKnight
· 1 year ago
I am strongly aithiast or however you spell it, pardon me. But my strong catholic mother says this, "Even if the whole theory of religion is based upon lies, all these false hopes [hypothetically] are just trying [and succeeding in certain places] to make people be kind to one another, and for everyone to get along." I agree, even if there was no Jesus, and the Bible's just a scam for church collection baskets to ring in some dough, i don't mind the fact that a large percentage of the world, follows the "Ten Commandments". I go to a catholic school too, i don't pray or anything, but i stand up and respect their religion, as i would hope they'd respect my thoughts and viewpoints on deity's and such.
AtheistToothFairy
· 1 year ago
Scott: ... i don't mind the fact that a large percentage of the world, follows the "Ten Commandments
Scott,
Have you actually read and pondered these 10 god 'suggestions', BOTH biblical versions of them?
Don't you find it interesting how some dumb items made the top 10 hit-parade, but things that should have, didn't even get a mention or simple footnote?
Do you really think a large percentage of this world not only knows and retains in their minds, the 10 commandments, but actually follows these ancient laws?
BTW...Could you please define for me what "KILL" means, and when does it applies and when it doesn't?
Thanks,
ATF (Who wonders which religious nut-job of old, actually made these laws up)
buffettphan
· 1 year ago
"Don't you find it interesting how some dumb items made the top 10 hit-parade, but things that should have, didn't even get a mention or simple footnote?"
Yes Scott, such as "Thou shalt not molest children." Attending a catholic school, you better watch out for that one in particular.
Dave8
· 1 year ago
Scott McKnight: ""But my strong catholic mother says this, "Even if the whole theory of religion is based upon lies, all these false hopes [hypothetically] are just trying [and succeeding in certain places] to make people be kind to one another, and for everyone to get along."
So, promoting the positive effects of lying is okay, if it helps one to be kind and get along with others. I recall a similar sentiment; killing is okay in the Roman Empire's Christendom, if it helps people "get along".
Scott McKnight: "I agree, even if there was no Jesus, and the Bible's just a scam for church collection baskets to ring in some dough, i don't mind the fact that a large percentage of the world, follows the "Ten Commandments".
Seems reasonable, except when noting the commandment which demands there is only one god to be worshipped - it is that commandment alone that sets its adherents against their neighbor, community and society at large.
The issue is between one of "acceptance" and "application"... the "ten commandments" represent a "decree" addressed to "all" people in society, etc. If one actually believed the "ten commandments" were "authoritative", they'd apply judgment and action against those who didn't heed the words of "their God" (absurd word).
If one bears false witness against their neighbor, while in the service of their "One True God" (absurd word), then they are pardonable... to those who bear false witness against their neighbor without belief in a "God" - they are guilty and unpardonable.
In short, the "ten commandments" are mere "suggestions" to those who believe the most "important" rule is to serve/worship their "One True God" (absurd word). An individual who is steadfast in their service to the "One True God" (absurd word), will logically justify breaking "all" other commandments to ensure their "service" or freedom to "serve" continues.
The portions of the "ten commandments" that seem "reasonable", only have "integrity" when perceived from a non-theological/non-ideological (secular) point of view.
Scott McKnight: "I go to a catholic school too, i don't pray or anything, but i stand up and respect their religion, as i would hope they'd respect my thoughts and viewpoints on deity's and such."
There is no reason to believe you should receive respect from those who strictly adhere to a theology based on "god" above all else. If you hope for mutual respect, it will only come from those who see religion/theology from a secular point of view, or secondary to human affairs.
me
· 7 months ago
Fossils...Thats All I have to say.
a beliver in the universe
· 6 months ago
IF THERE WERE A "SO CALLED " god! all would be peachy clean! we are all sent here for taking care of this world! (as an attempt) however we all forgot why or where we came from, the lost worlds that ever evolve and grow and lose.... the Universe was and always IS there, it has no beginning! only the stars inside that die and are born keep going on!! the Hubble is only a wee eye and everytime it gets "updated" it sees ever more! see? there is no beginning of the Universe that always is there! the universe is the " 0"
AtheistToothFairy
· 6 months ago
"a beliver in the universe": IF THERE WERE A "SO CALLED " god! all would be peachy clean!
Well, I think you're making an assumption here really. If a 'god' did exists, how can anyone be sure the result would be "peachy clean"? What if we landed up with an evil god, or one who liked dirty things etc.?
we are all sent here for taking care of this world! (as an attempt)
Who sent us to take care of this world, space aliens?
however we all forgot why or where we came from, the lost worlds that ever evolve and grow and lose....
So we came from some lost world then?
the Universe was and always IS there, it has no beginning! only the stars inside that die and are born keep going on!!
Now this part I agree with.
the Hubble is only a wee eye and everytime it gets "updated" it sees ever more! see? there is no beginning of the Universe that always is there! the universe is the " 0"
Actually, the Hubble keeps seeing further away, which correlates to further back in time. It has no means to see the very beginning of the universe (singularity), nor what might have preceded our present universe.
ATF
aperson1
· 4 months ago
i totaly agree (well i could've done without so many big word... its like 2 am lol)
even if there were a god, if you dont believe you go to "hell" thats just bull, he sounds like a prick to me...
and where is "heavan" and "hell" i dont see how it can exist... i mean everything started somewhere right? then where did god start? he couldnt just magicly show up and "creat" a bunch of shit...
Robert
· 4 months ago
Your problem, all of you, is that you're trying to reconcile the physical world we see around us with a power that is beyond comprehension. First-off, using our "logic" to prove or disprove god would require human reasoning to be flawless. If even one tiny aspect of our logic were flawed, it would completely negate any attempt to disprove the existence of God. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not overly impressed with our reasoning skills. However many million years ago, some low-browed neanderthall discovered if you smash two rocks together you get fire. Now, 2000 years after the death of Christ (dare i speak his name), we've moved beyond fire to such things as the atomic bomb and fossil fuels. Sure, it took a bit more head-scratching to come up with these things, but at the end of the day, we've only discovered more advanced ways of smashing rocks together. We say we're making great discoveries, that we're explaining the mysteries of the universe, but all we're really doing is analyzing, quantifying, and utilizing pre-existing powers that are totally beyond our control. We can split an atom and think, "Hey, Wow!! I could probably blow up a city doing that", but we can't explain why that atom exists in the first place, or where that enormous energy came from. There are a lot of mysterious questions like that out there. Problems that really knock us down a peg. Here's a doozy: Does the Universe end, or is it infinite? Our solar system ends, our galaxy ends, so certainly the Universe must end. But if we ever reach that end, what's on the other side? Not only does our logic fail to answer this question, it is proven to be fundamentally incorrect and contradictory because of it. After all our advancements, if we can't make sense of such a quaint, fundamental question, how could we possibly trust our logic to disprove the existence of God? This is all philosophical fluff though. The fact of the matter is that our logic has sent the world to hell in a handbasket. It's been barely a hundred years since the industrial revolution and we're threatened by global warming, nuclear war, the pollution of our food supply and a thousand other tragedies. The real question is, when you watch the news at night, do you really want to get out of bed in this world if God doesn't exist?
Austeve
· 4 months ago
Dear Robert,
You opened your interesting post with the following confounding apologetic:
“Your problem, all of you, is that you're trying to reconcile the physical world we see around us with a power that is beyond comprehension.”
However…
If it’s “…beyond our comprehension”, all we can do is MAKE IT UP. Otherwise it’s NOT “…beyond our comprehension.”
True or false?
Then you wrote:
“First-off, using our "logic" to prove or disprove god would require human reasoning to be flawless.”
Oops! So of course the same can be said for the obverse.
And then:
“If even one tiny aspect of our logic were flawed, it would completely negate any attempt to disprove the existence of God.”
But Robert, ‘god’ is not a ‘given’. There is NO EVIDENCE apart from a fervent human-generated wish for the concept to be so. If some, or ANY, ‘god’ was a ‘given’, a ‘plain-as-day’ fact, children wouldn’t be born unaware of such a major cosmic life-force. However, they are, and the only way they gain such ‘information’ is to be instructed by fellow humans about an awareness that should be instinctive and intrinsic to our species. Seems it’s not though.
True or false?
I found this section meaty and well ‘reasoned’ though:
“I don't know about you guys, but I'm not overly impressed with our reasoning skills. However many million years ago, some low-browed neanderthall discovered if you smash two rocks together you get fire. Now, 2000 years after the death of Christ (dare i speak his name), we've moved beyond fire to such things as the atomic bomb and fossil fuels. Sure, it took a bit more head-scratching to come up with these things, but at the end of the day, we've only discovered more advanced ways of smashing rocks together.
We say we're making great discoveries, that we're explaining the mysteries of the universe, but all we're really doing is analyzing, quantifying, and utilizing pre-existing powers that are totally beyond our control. We can split an atom and think, "Hey, Wow!! I could probably blow up a city doing that", but we can't explain why that atom exists in the first place, or where that enormous energy came from. The fact of the matter is that our logic has sent the world to hell in a handbasket. It's been barely a hundred years since the industrial revolution and we're threatened by global warming, nuclear war, the pollution of our food supply and a thousand other tragedies."
I so agree with your list of infuriatingly obvious human limitations.
However, I, like the majority of posters to this site, haven’t seen or heard any god or gods. It hasn’t happened. It’s all too evidentially down to nature, and to the best, but seemingly usually worst of our actions. I attribute the grim and disappointing realisations you mention to the unavoidable evidence that as a survivor-species, we’re just not up to it. We flounder around and make awful messes and foul-ups, (that we can so often see coming!), under the control of our tragi-comic ‘intellectual glass ceiling’. (And all the while we squawk, beef and lament as though we’re at a horror movie except that it’s real life and we’re unable to halt our natures crazy destructive ways.) We're plenty clever and cunning, but not so hot with the intelligence.
Then you demonstrate a transparent bias:
“After all our advancements, if we can't make sense of such a quaint, fundamental question, (“Does the Universe end, or is it infinite?”)how could we possibly trust our logic to disprove the existence of God?
Well Robert, just like all the other life forms we’re taking out with our narcissistic abuse of natures support systems, we don’t know and that’s just the way it is.
And your last word:
“The real question is, when you watch the news at night, do you really want to get out of bed in this world if God doesn't exist?”
Well for me, to declare that ANY of the, (to our species), wonderful sounds and things that make life rich, rewarding and awe-inspiring, are the work of a benevolent human-focussed super-thing would be just a self-centred decision. A decision to anthropomorphise and in a sense ‘own’ everything I don’t understand.
In all honesty, I can’t and won’t do that. I’d know that I was just pleasing myself.
Steve.
Astreja
· 4 months ago
Robert: "Your problem, all of you, is that you're trying to reconcile the physical world we see around us with a power that is beyond comprehension."
A hypothetical and not necessarily sentient power.
"First-off, using our "logic" to prove or disprove god would require human reasoning to be flawless."
Unsupported assertion. I can easily deduce that 1+1=2 by putting two pennies on My desk; the fact that I don't know everything about Life, the Universe and Everything does not prevent Me from coming up with a meaningful answer.
"Here's a doozy: Does the Universe end, or is it infinite?"
Insufficient data. And what, exactly, does this have to do with the existence or non-existence of gods?
Name
· 3 months ago
People believe in these "Gods" because they need an easy explanation for why things are how they are. They fear uncertainty, and they believe in God so they dont have to deal with the feelings of not knowing why they're here, not knowing what will happen when they die, etc. God is the easy way out. Nobody knows what will happen when they die, and it is perfectly human to be scared of it.
We all hear old folk tales, Native American legends, and stories people used to tell to describe why things happened, and we all know they're not true. What makes religion any different? Religion is nothing but a story to help people feel more comfortable about life.
Long ago, we didnt know what caused the weather, so we assumed it was a god. We now have scienfific facts to prove that weather is not created by a god. It is the same with life and death. We dont know why we're here, we dont know what happens when we die. So what do people do?-Blame it all on God. There are many things that happen in this world that we have no clue as to why or how they happen, but this is why science and technology are progressing- so we can find out why things happen, so we dont have to keep putting all out faith into false gods.
People think that they must have an explanation for everything, and this is why we have religion. The magic of life is trying to FIND OUT these mysteries during our journey. Not everything has to be explained, at least not until we have the technology to figure these mysteries out. I am completely happy not knowing at all why I am here. This just makes me more eager to go out and to enjoy life, and maybe, when I die, I will know what purpose my life had. After all, if you dont know what happens when you die, that just makes it that much easier to go out and enjoy your life while you still have it.
There are many mysteries in the world, some of which may never be solved. It is each person's duty in life's journey to attempt to discover the truth for themselves. So before anybody comes to try to tell me about God, I say, get your head out of that book and go experience life for yourself, and I will too, and at the end of each person's great journey, they WILL know the truth, God or no god.
Name
· 3 months ago
Well, anyway. I haven't read what everyone else has written. But I will say that I think there's a general lack of appreciation of what time is.
Heidegger started Being and Time with the assumption that time preceded being. Anyway, he quit the book before it was finished (what we have now is like a third of his planned opus). He quit because he realized being comes before time, not time before being (ontologically, of course). Don't assume that human knowledge is ultimate knowledge, that everything must also be restricted to the linear space/time.
I would recommend studying Aristotle and Plotinus in particular to everyone who wishes to have such debates. And I think, while it may sound elitist, that people should have more of a background in philosophy before going around "disproving God." Really. I mean, Russell, Frege, Wittgenstein (who I'm a fan of), they basically chucked all of philosophy and started with their own thing. They were scientists. What a joke. I'm not a scientist, so I'm not going to jump into that field and start all over, throwing out, oh, I don't know, Galileo, Newton, Copernicus. That'd be laughable, wouldn't it?
Please. If you're going to take on issues such as existence and time and God, do some research into it. People much smarter than you are have spent a lot of time on these ultimate questions. It's pretty arrogant to have such discussions without acknowledging first that you're minnows swimming with sharks. You're boys playing a man's game.
All Comments
"This is a very true arguement: But I advise you to turn to Buddhism. It doesn't preach about any creator God. It is the only democratic religion (Lord Buddha wanted his followers to explore other religions and understand that His preachings are the truth without taking it for granted). It is the ONLY religion that doesn't conflict with Darwin's thoery of evoloution and Science in general. "
Buddhism is NOT the ONLY religion that doesn't coflict with Darwin's theory of evolution. Catholicism doesn't either. You don't have to take the Bible LITERALLY when it says that God created Adam and Eve as the first people. I am a Catholic and the Bible is not necessarily meant to be taken literally. Many of the stories of the Old Testament are just stories to teach lessons.
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?"
God did not create evil. He gave men and everything FREE WILL. God wanted a perfect world, but a perfect world does not include forcing people to love you and follow you. Therefore, God gave us free will to choose if we will love and follow him or not. Satan chose not to, like many people in this world choose not to.
So even a god can't get what he wants. And when he doesn't get it, he gets pissed.
HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL...
You get the point.
I'll say it again, seems like many people want to "stuff" words in a gods proverbial mouth, thus, elevating themselves to a "god" status. Makes one wonder, if the person speaking on a god(s), behalf somehow has personal visits as well, in order to discuss matters left out of the bible.
Anonymous, you obviously haven't read the bible and pondered on free will that much, or you'd realize, that no one has free will, if they are born into "sin". Simply put, according to tradition, we were born into a pre-destined situation of sin, where an omniscient god knows whether of not we will choose to follow them or not, hence, no free will. Oh, sure, we may "think" we are making a choice in life, but... not really, according to original sin... according to much of religion, we are just living out our lives, exactly as an omniscient god knows we will. What a person thinks in novel, is a done deal in a gods' mind, thus, as humans we may theoretically think we are experiencing free will, but... to an omniscient god, the book of life has already been written, hence, why worry about what a person can't control. Many religionists are so spun up trying to control events outside of this universe, in their own mind, while letting their current real day-to-day life wither away.
Acts 13:48 - "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Rom.8:29-30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
2 Th.2:11-12 - "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."
2 Tim.1:9 - "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Eph.1:4-5 - "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."
Jude 4 - "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation."
By the way, if all mankind is predestined, then obviously all the suicide, murder, mass genocide, natural disasters, etc., are already known events, and god knowingly allows them to occur. Obviously, he/she/it feels there is some benefit in allowing pain and suffering to occur in this life, without our free will to make a change.
God's Plan, well, according to the bible...
Rom.9:11-22 - "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."
God "created" some to honor, and yet others to dishonor him/her/it. Then, of course, the finale, where those who were created to dishonor, were created for no less than examples to be set for others, as "god" fits them for destruction, to show his/her/its godly powers. Seems like god, uses coercion, manipulation, and outright deceit to keep those who will honor, in line.
Based on the christian view of a "god", I'd have to say I'm an Atheist, but, hey, I just don't believe in the christian concept of a god. The old codger just seems to be too self-centered and concerned with his/her/its ego, I'd go as far as the christian version of a god being narcissistic, but, that's just my opinion.
Regarding, god and satan, if we as humans were given free will, and satan was also, then... whose to say, satan didn't inspire the KJV bible. Obviously, tradition shows that satan was around long before the bible was written. It would at least explain all of the contradictions, atrocities, etc.
From what I have seen of Pat Roberts "healings" on the 700 club, god can get rid of headaches, that's about it.
(snicker) So can I.
Onanite
The only "proof" of God is a book thats over 2000 years old and "Mommy and Daddy said so"
So having faith in something that has no explanation or more proof than Santa Clause is not only ignorant but ridiculous.
"............Can you explain how earth is the only habital planet, such a perfect planet can be explained by science? And just how is it possible to have perfect organs too?........"
Anonymous! "perfect organs?" Are you a guy or a girl?
IF concave, please post your e-mail address. If your organs are perfect, I want to hear more!
Dan (Just curious!)
Let's see....you can't "see" unicorns, the Great Pumpkin, the Easter Bunny, elves, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, imps, the Boogieman, Osiris, and/or a bazillion other "gods", either. I suppose you have "faith" in those, too?
BTW, science doesn't deal in absolutes--it's "only" a "theory" that you are breathing oxygen.(obviously, not enough) lol
Now the Milky Way Galaxie is just one of an estimated over 125 Billion other galaxies that exist in outer space, so to think that we are the only living beings in the Universe is just based totally on ignorance.
That's the reason that the Bible writers invented a God, because they could not comphrend that there were even other planets in outer space.
What amazes me is that anyone could still believe what some stupid jackasses wrote over 2000 years ago, not having practically any knowledge about any one thing.
Ah, another weenie who believes we were made of perfect mud, with a potters wheel in the middle of a perfect garden. Obivously, nony, seems to have overlooked the obvious extra organs we have, that aren't really serving functions, except to get us through a critical point during our evolutionary challenges, with our environment.
Santa says, people really don't exist, they're just magical creatures with perfect organs.
God can help you age slower too, through some of Pat's pancakes.
I went back to the pancake thread and found this posting -- absolutely hilarious!!!
hmmmm.... maybe he should stick an apple in Falwells big mouth and have bacon to go with em. If he keeps eaten this crap he'll never get off the ground when rapture comes .... Here i am Jesus ! ... bounce ...bounce...Help me Lord !....pull
tarotpoker, 11.20.2003, 12:45 am #
What whould you have lost from believing there is the almighty God?
I am sorry you do not believe in the Lord your God. I will pray for you. I have been healed physically through Jesus Christ our Saviour and It did put a stop to all my doubts. Thanks to God!
What whould you have lost from believing there is the almighty God?"
We did believe, and ultimately rejected Pascal's Wager.
"I will pray for you."
Don't bother. I know you probably think this is a nice thing to say, but really if you think about it, it's not. You're saying there's something wrong with the person you're offering to pray for.
If someone said, "I will sacrifice a chicken for you, that you might believe," would that make you feel loved and cared for?
"I have been healed physically through Jesus Christ our Saviour..."
Did you lose a limb and have it magically replaced overnight, or something equivalent? If not, I rather suspect there is a natural reason for your recovery.
I still pray for all to come back to the Lord. Because I know what it is like to be against the Lord.
I can tell you this, I really learned the hard way. It is the way you will learn as well, because of your attitude. You should know I felt similar to you for many years.
Speaking from expereince, I know there is still hope for all of you here. God's mercy is greater then his wrath. The greater the sinner the greater the right he/she has to His mercy.
The power of prayer is tremendous and meant to bring you good will. Please don't take it as an insult.
I never knew there was a webiste like this in cyberspace. I have to say, I am shocked. I sent this link it to all my friends who love the Lord, to see what they think about this site.
Still, why not believe? Wouldn't be better to be safe by faith, then later to find out God exsists because you finally have come face to face with Him. Most of us relise that if we wait that long, it will be to late.
What will you have lost by believing in the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?
Love will conquer all. Have a great Labor day to all!
I know you will say the wind exists, and it is invisible, but there are not volumes and volumes describing the wind,ok?
So you're taking the word of people that lived over 2000 years ago that they wrote about that are invisible and have never been proven and never been seen, atleast the wind can be proved to be real, whereas the things you're pretending to believe in, cannot be proved and never will be proved. All you have is a belief, nothing more, it's not much, it's something you wish for, thats all.
We're though with wishing and hoping and living in an fantasy mind delusion, but you're not.
Everyone needs to be propped up from time to time, and some of us chose religion. But that is what it is - a prop. I used it, and ultimately discarded it.
There is a psychological benefit to be had from religion for those who need it. It's even been known to make some people behave better (my grandfather wouldn't know how to act otherwise - or says he wouldn't). However, not everyone needs it, and there are those who prefer living without it.
When religion turns people into evangelists, witnessing to all and sundry because they believe they've found the Absolute Truth™ it becomes a problem. When they visit ex-Christian websites and lecture former believers, it's a problem. When they ignore the fact that freedom of religion includes freedom from religion, it's a problem. You get the idea.
As for Pascal's Wager (did you follow the link?), it is a pathetic reason to believe in something. By that logic, I should believe in each and every god just in case I might be wrong about one of them. Even you can see how ridiculous that would be, can't you?
"The power of prayer is tremendous and meant to bring you good will. Please don't take it as an insult."
I understood your intent, but wanted to point out that it is also condescending. To illustrate (again):
"You shouldn't believe in the Christian god. You should follow the Great Pumpkin. I will circle the patch thrice 'round clockwise and sacrifice a canteloupe, spilling its nectar over the ground. It's widely known that doing such a thing releases great power."
Since you're not a Great Pumpkin follower, I'm doing something on your behalf because you are in some way deficient. Does this make sense to you?
"I did believe in God, then I got mad and blamed God for all my problems...then 17 years later, when I hit rock bottom, I cried out to the Lord our God."
Correction--you cried out to YOUR "God". Remember, you are not in church giving your testimonial to the congregation, so please--- don't start rattling off a bunch of presuppositional biblio-babble, because it means jack here. Right to the chase: You have zero evidence that your personal experience involves anything outside of your head. None. We are not "angry at God" anymore than you are angry at Shazam. We are, however, concerned that grown adults believe in talking snakes, a flat earth, ghosts, monsters, bloody rivers, unicorns, winged "body-guards", talking vegetation, sky domes, flaming chariots, swimming hammers, people made out of dust, and finally.... that they will live eternally in a blissful retirement center in the clouds.
"I still pray for all to come back to the Lord. Because I know what it is like to be against the Lord."
Okaaaay, prayer is useless..."use"--"LESS"..i.e..."ineffective". It is ancient superstition, nothing more. And again, we are not "against the Lord", because there IS no "Lord". If you still feel convinced that "prayer" works, then please----pray that we are all saved and this website is closed down by high-noon tomorrow. Good "luck".
Fundy: "Speaking from expereince, I know there is still hope for all of you here. God's mercy is greater then his wrath. The greater the sinner the greater the right he/she has to His mercy."
Really?..there is "hope" for us? Why thank you, you brainwashed condescending prick. Again, your Gawd is non-existant, and we don't need you and your ilk's petty patronizing pitty. Unless you have evidence for your biblegawd, I suggest you don't come back.
Fundy: "Still, why not believe? Wouldn't be better to be saf......blah, blah, blah, BLAH, BLAHHH!"
Boy-0-boy, how original.. Pascal's Wager... or, believe "just in case". That shows just how little confidence you have in your mythological conviction, which is surprising for all the ministering you've been doing.
However it is common to be persecuted for belief in the Lord Jesus Christ our God, from those who are convinced there is no Eternal Father, the Lord God.
And it will continue till the end of times. And it will get worse until then.
So, I found through personal expeience, it is better to beleive then live the non-believers way of thinking. More Goodness comes from it.
As convinced as you claim there is no God...I am convinced otherwise and as strongly as you feel about it.
AS for prayers....
The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist.
Then you will believe? Right?
I will work on this. Take care. And by the way I do hope this site stays up..because it is easier to find you all. LOL!
What I see here is person who has become all shocked and indignant because an EX-Christian website has people who don't believe in Christ.(WTF?) Go grab a twelvepack of beer and head down to your local AA affiliate and see if you are received with a warm welcome. Tell them that they are "misinterpreting" the warning label, and the reason that they've lost their jobs, family, houses, and everything else, is because they haven't been drinking "Godweiser"---the only "true" alcoholic beverage.
Fundymouse said: "So, I found through personal expeience, it is better to beleive then live the non-believers way of thinking. More Goodness comes from it."
Please provide evidence for this absurd notion.
Fundonymous said: "As convinced as you claim there is no God...I am convinced otherwise and as strongly as you feel about it."
Yes, you are "convinced" and "feel strongly", just like any Sunni Muslim is convinced and feels strongly about Muhammad. Now convince us, with empirical evidence, that he's wrong and you are right.
Fundymouse said: "AS for prayers....
The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist.
Then you will believe? Right?"
A "sign"? Hell no, I want him to appear, IN THE FLESH---like he appeared to "hundreds" of people 2000 years ago---then, being the "miracle working all-loving God" Jesus is, I want him to go to St. Jude's Children's hospital and put it out of business, completely healing every child in there, so they can all go home with their parents where they belong. I won't hold my breath, though.
Heaping ridicule on an idea is not the same as personal animosity. I have no animosity toward you personally. You might be the nicest person in the world. Your faith is your choice, and I have no problem with that either.
You came to a site which is filled with former believers, who have already heard or spoken the same words you have hundreds - perhaps thousands - of times. Combined with the continual barrage of nonsense provided courtesy of T.V. evangelists, family members and friends, the Internet, and of course the endless stream of Christian posters on this website, it gets pretty tiresome. Strong reactions are highly likely. Reading more of the threads could've told you this, and perhaps informed you of a better approach, or warned you not to approach at all.
"...it is common to be persecuted for belief in the Lord Jesus Christ our God..."
You are not being persecuted.
persecute(v)
1 : to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) Merriam-Webster
No one here harassed you. No one here is punishing you in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict you. If you are suffering because we've disagreed, then I'd suggest growing a thicker skin.
When your ideas are being criticized, it is not persecution. When you are censored, restricted, and/or physically harmed in order to inhibit your practice of your faith or because of it, that's persecution.
"The prayer that you need is to receive a sign from God to prove to you that He does exsist.
Then you will believe? Right?"
Signs, signs, everywhere a sign...
Well, to hear Evangelicals tell it, all any of us has to do is wait about 50 years or so. Then Jesus Christ will make a miraculous appearance in the clouds, coming down to Rapture His church away - or kick off the Tribulation, I forget. All this with no prayers required!
Well when someone threatens me with not coming back here, I consider that a from of persecution.(restriction was implied)
When you speak of the one and only God, with such lack and reverence thereof... others, like I, hold so dear to our hearts, because of the Love we have for the Lord. It is easy to say what you have here is more of an Anti-God site or Anti-Christ site, from which normally breeds diobolical forces.
I know this is a long shot...BUT..
Do you beleive in the devil? Or Hell?
I would like to know what you think of evil forces in the world.
And on that day, your last day...what will you be thinking as you go out of this world? You know typically most people cry out to the Lord at that point. Because they know that is all they can do.
Just curious.
By the way I did write I used to believe and then didn't..and then came back to my faith in the Lord.
I know alot of people who don't believe in God..I just never saw it put like this is all.
This is a private website with a clearly stated purpose. Have you read the site disclaimer?
Regardless, what you've done here is barge in the door and begin to aggressively preach. You've basically crashed a private party that is being held in a public park. Then, after setting up your pulpit in that party, one of the people who was invited to the party rebuked your rudeness.
Now, how in the world is being rebuked for rudeness persecution? I guess if I were to crash your church on Sunday morning, and start disrupting the service, and as a result was thrown out of the building, then I could claim persecution too.
Seriously, don't play the persecution card unless you're actually being persecuted for your religion. There are people in the world suffering persecution for their religion, but there is no such thing as persecution in America. There are chruches on every corner, preachers on every television channel and religious books overflowing every bookstore. Don't mistake rejection of your religion by someone, or even loathing of your religion by someone, as persecution, because it is NOT persecution.
However, if you'd like to be persecuted, please go to a country where religion dominates the government, like in the Middle East, and start preaching. I'm sure that there you'll find the persecution you're looking for.
As far as barging in, I was surfing the net when I came across your site.
I found it interesting is all.
I just wondered if there are diobolical forces working here. Do you allow devil worshipers to post comments?
I saw some really sickening photos attached to your site. Some are clearly diobolical.
photos of immorality etc... some are just so bad. It would be like me showing a picture of a beloved one to someone and then having that person hate my beloved and then doing all kinds of unmentionable things to that photo.
Clearly it is down out of hatred.
Jeff was giving me feedback is all.
I want to know more about why people leave Christianity for good.
The same reason they leave any false cult for good.
Do you believe in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution? More notably, the portion that prohibits the federal legislature from making laws that...
1-Establish a state religion or prefer certain religion (the "Establishment Clause");
2-Prohibit free exercise of religion (the "Free Exercise Clause");
3-Infringe the freedom of speech;
4-Infringe the freedom of the press;
5-Limit the right to assemble peaceably;
Now, obviously, if religionists use their guaranteed first amendment, specifically, the number two freedom above, to attack the entire U.S. citizenry's right to first amendment freedoms, then don't you think that it is at a minimum - hypocritical. A religionist using their freedom of speech to deny everyone elses'. The really diabolical insight, is seeing the unrestrained search for power by entire religious organizations, in order to control others.
Anony: "I saw some really sickening photos attached to your site. Some are clearly diobolical."
Well... flesh peeling off of a pregnant woman being burned on a stake/pole as a "witch", using the Old Testament for support, in order for christian leaders to cleanse them of their diabolical demon that just has to be there, would be more sickening... Even more sickening, is hearing someone use the OT to show their support of such atrocities.
Anony: "photos of immorality etc... some are just so bad. It would be like me showing a picture of a beloved one to someone and then having that person hate my beloved and then doing all kinds of unmentionable things to that photo."
Immorality? That's what the majority vote discerns. What may be considered "moral", might well, not be "right".
For instance, its against the law to give medication prescribed by a doctor to another person who has the same medical needs, even if the other person doesn't have the money/means to acquire the exact same medication.
Its "moral" to follow the law, is it not? Is it "right", to watch a little child die in agonizing pain, in order to be moral? What is considered "morally" right, by a majority of people, or by a legislature, doesn't make it "right". One would hope, that the two would meet somewhere, e.g., the law, and what is right. Perhaps, courts were created to find a middle ground.
Anony: "I want to know more about why people leave Christianity for good."
I'd like to know, why you don't believe in Santa Clause as a real figure who involves themselves in your life, on a yearly basis.
St. Nicholas was a real person. He is a Canonized Saint. So he was a real person way back when.
So most children have fun with that idea. I did. The fake Santa is just a festive fun thing. Then you get older and your parents tell you it was a child thing. So what?
God is much different. There is no comparrison. That is rediculous to even insinuate.
Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus.
Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either.
In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society.
Many peope don't get out of cults. They are so weak minded that they are trapped in their own mind.
I don't know any Christian that is trapped like that.
Free will is the gift.
The bottom line is you and I are by free will excersing our gift.
But in the end only one will win.
So what do you think of death. Are you afraid?
Um, evidently, you don't grasp the "Santa" analogy, do you?. I know twenty Mexicans named "Jesus", so-the-f%ck what?.....people named "Jesus" are "real" people...SO?...that doesn't mean that the biblical Jesus did miracle, one, let alone that he is a "God". So your little "history of Santa" is totally irrelevant.
Fundonymous: "Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus."
Listen up, Einstein---currently, your President is a Christ-sucker just like you, as well as the Senate and House being mostly right-wing conservatives(And I don't mean ISLAMIC conservative). Anyway, please tell me---how is THAT "communist"?
Fundonymous: "Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either.
In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society."
Anon---just the fact that you lump Atheists in with devil worship shows that you have zero clue what Atheism even means. People who worship a man with horns and a pitchfork are wasting just as much time as people who worship a man nailed to a stick. It's ALL mythology---legendary "thinking". And your assertion that Atheists make, um...a "more sicker society"? I don't see any evidence of that, but I certainly see evidence that religious people make a "more stupider" society ;)
I think I've posted this elsewhere, but essentially God Himself would have to appear in such a way that the appearance could be independently verified by a very large and diverse number of people, including scientific and governmental organizations.
However, that would not eliminate questions. The God described in the Bible exhibits behavior that could easily be described as petty and tyrannical. Perhaps if Oprah could interview God?
"Well when someone threatens me with not coming back here, I consider that a from of persecution.(restriction was implied)"
Where is this implied? If you're talking about the mildly hostile reception you received, that in no way implies you will be prohibited from posting. At least, not that I know of.
"It is easy to say what you have here is more of an Anti-God site or Anti-Christ site, from which normally breeds diobolical forces."
It may be easy to say, but that doesn't make it true. It's easy for me to say that Christianity
teaches hatred, but that doesn't make it true.
This is not an anti-God or anti-Christ site. That all-or-nothing or 'if-you-aren't-for-us' attitude fails to take into account that many here simply lack belief, and/or feel that religion is a pastime of limited use, or worse. In other words, if this site is anti- anything, it's anti-Christianity.
And what examples can you provide that a lack of belief in God breeds 'diabolical forces.'?
"Do you beleive in the devil? Or Hell?"
No. Such myths have no basis or application in the real world.
"I would like to know what you think of evil forces in the world."
Evil forces might include those that commit acts of mass murder, such as genocide, for any reason. Other evil forces might include those that seek to take away or restrict basic human freedoms, such as the freedom of religion or of speech. That includes religions or speech that we don't agree with (within reason).
Incidentally, I think it's safe to say that no one here would advocate legislating your right to believe or speak as you wish away from you. Again, within reason.
"And on that day, your last day...what will you be thinking as you go out of this world?"
Well, assuming I'm capable of rational thought, I'll be thinking about my life, hoping that I've been able to leave a positive legacy for my daughter and others to follow. I don't fear death itself or what, if anything, might come after.
"...typically most people cry out to the Lord..."
That's a very sweeping statement, and of dubious merit. Most Christians or those raised in a Christian culture may do that, or perhaps think about doing so. Those raised in societies in with other majority beliefs probably don't. This is a significant number of people (between 4 and 5 billion, I think).
By the way I did write I used to believe and then didn't..and then came back to my faith in the Lord."
Yes you did, and I think we understand that. However, if you were hoping that it would be in some way persuasive in leading us back to your faith or lend greater credulity to your arguments, you were mistaken.
"I just wondered if there are diobolical forces working here. Do you allow devil worshipers to post comments?"
If you're referring to the influence of the devil or demons, I'd say no because outside the Bible there's no indication such things exist. If you are implying something else, please be clear.
As for devil worshippers, I don't know if any have posted here or not. Chances are at some point one or more of the visitors to the site have been or still are devil worshippers. All the same, if they started posting about the reality of the devil they would likely be treated to the same level of skepticism as any Christian.
To believe in the devil is to give credulity to the Christian Bible (and some other religious texts), which is something most here probably wouldn't do.
"Clearly it is down out of hatred."
To which items are you referring? Have you considered the possibility that some of the items were done simply in order to poke fun?
"I see you can not give me a clear answer on the points I have tapped into here."
Which points? In any case, everyone will have a different answer for why they don't believe or left the faith. In other words, it's subjective. So, if you were hoping for one catch-all answer for everyone, your hope was in vain.
St. Nicholas was a real person. He is a Canonized Saint. So he was a real person way back when."
Many - not all - myths have some basis in real events and/or people. That doesn't diminish the fact that they are myths, though. Santa Clause is a myth, plain and simple.
"God is much different. There is no comparrison."
I would agree. There is even less basis for a belief in God, because there is no evidence such an entity has ever existed to by mythologized in the same manner as St. Nicholas. The only 'evidence' that every Christian can point to with agreement is the Bible, which is a book written, handled, transmitted, and translated by human hands, and full of mythological imagery.
Any individual witnesses to God's reality based on personal experience is at best anecdotal. Since such things are highly subjective (because they are so personal), none of it can ever be independently verified.
We may be able to measure brain activity that correlates to certain religious practices (such as prayer), but since this brain activity occurs whether one is a Christian or a Hindu this isn't evidence for God. All it proves is that religious practice in some way influences, or is influenced by, physical responses in the brain.
"Yes our government is corrupt and communist are involved. So deal with that reality, instead of worring about Santa Claus."
Governments are corrupt because money and power corrupts, not because of a particular ideology. Our government is corrupt and most of the top officials profess Christianity as their faith.
By the way, which decade are you living in? Communist influence? C'mon...
"Atheists and Anti Christ and devil worshippers don't improve the standards either.
In fact they make it a more miserable society. A more sicker society and more confused and lost society."
They do? Ever been to Sweden? How about Denmark, Norway, Japan, Finland, South Korea, France or Germany, Britain, Canada, or Israel? Each of these societies is in the Top 20 places in the world in which people claim/admit to atheism or agnosticism. See here.
Admittedly, there are some countries in the list that suffer from poverty or are governed by morally corrupt governments. However, this isn't necessarily a reflection on the people who live there. Vietnam, for example, suffers from poverty brought on by Socialism, and is ruled with more or less an iron fist. However, my father has visited several times and speaks mostly about the friendliness and strong family-oriented psychology of the people themselves.
Also see Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies for some interesting reading. Of course, correlation doesn't imply causation, but it's still eye-opening.
"I don't know any Christian that is trapped like that."
Religious adherents are willing participants in their own entrapment, whether it is within a cult or what is considered a mainstream religion. They are free to leave any time they wish, but usually don't wish to. That's the beauty of brainwashing.
"But in the end only one will win."
Life is a competition for survival perhaps, not about who is right.
"So what do you think of death. Are you afraid?"
Not in the least. I admit I would prefer to die in my sleep rather than by violent means, but I don't fear death itself.
That is kind of Christian of you to say the least. (no offense)
Or just good of you to say the most.
What have you to say of Voodoo?
My finance is from Hati, and he has witnessed many forms of diobolical forces....such as seeing men turn into animals and the walking dead.
Have you been to countries like this that practice Voodoo?
Isn't this demonic forces / dark forces prevailing on earth?
The photos I have found here are more then just poking fun of Jesus Christ though...I think... it is more like gross to me.
Re: death
One day I passed out, but did not loose total conciousness. It was the most strangest thing I ever felt. My body was not able to move, my eyes were shut and I could not open them either...I became extremely panicked...I relised that I had no control over my life..I surrendered..then I relised a tremendous peace came over me...I couldn't help but think of God..I equate this to the body is seperate from the soul.
What you to say about this type of expereince? Ever hear of it?
The Bible.
I have noticed that man has made the same mistakes over and over again in the history of the Bible applied to today and throughout history since we have had the Bible.
This includes trying to have a society that excludes God or doesn't beleive in the exsistence in a divine God.the consequences always end up with us being destroyed or chastised.
Do you find this just a coincidence?
Many have taken the Bible as a guideline to life and it has seemd to be helpful in how to live a better life. Like the book of Proverbs for instance.
Where does a ex Christian learn from to live a positive life and what does that life consist of?
And what is that life like?
Thanks for all your input again.
I can answer the last question. I dont believe in any god, im 53 years old, and as I was growing up, my parents, experiences, and my ongoing vision of life have taught me what is right, wrong, good, bad, and so on. I firmly believe, that you don't have to believe in god to be a good person. Just as some are mechanically inclined, some are inclined to be good to themselves and others, without having to constantly refer to a manual. One's comon sense should be sufficient by the time they reach adulthood.
Wouldn't it be better to beleive then to find out in the end on your death bed that God does really exsist and that you have regrets? And then it would be to late?
What harm does it bring to you to believe?
Never mind.
......::yawn::......
Okay, firstly, there is zero evidence for the existance of ANY deity, let alone the X-ian biblegod. If you have said evidence, let's hear it.(hopefully you won't be an amateur and put forth the bible as "evidence".) Secondly, yes, going through life believing a lie can make your life "worse". If on your "death bed" your signifigant other tells you that they never really loved you, and in fact, loved someone else, it would be bad---especially when you saw the "signs"(evidence) early on, but chose to ignore it ; ) So again, going through life believing a lie can make life "worse".
Anony then asked: "Wouldn't it be better to beleive then to find out in the end on your death bed that God does really exsist and that you have regrets?"
Yes, yes, we know---believe "just in case", right? Okay, so then shouldn't YOU believe in EVERY God?....just in case you have "faith" in the wrong one?
You're welcomed to try and make it make logical sense if you'd like. Let's hear it.
That is what I wish for you to have. And I believe in prayer because of my personal experiences and miracles, In my own way, I will continue to pray for you get one too.
Have a great winter season.
Have a great winter, spring, summer, autumn delusion.
If God was around before you where born, how come you never talked to God until after you were born?
Do you think your father or mother had Jesus and your eternal salvation on their minds at the exact moment of insemination (your fathers orgasm) into your mother?
The only place a God or Jesus exists is in your mind, you're just repeating things you've heard other monkeys repeat, and by repetition and indoctrination.
Now, I can prove to you that God and Jesus only exists in the conscious living brain, this also all manmade envisioned entities.
1. God and Jesus disappear when you are asleep, (where do they go?)
2. God and Jesus disappear when you are unconscious, (where do they go?)
3. God and Jesus disappear when you're under anesthesia during surgery, (where do they go?)
4. All Gods and saviors disappear when the mind is unconscious.
5. Therefore, all Gods and saviors and manmade entities disappear, when the mind is dead.
6. All the things that you've been told to believe, will disappear when you are dead.
You might as well learn it now, so get over with talking to yourself, and calling it from a God, its just your mind repeating just what it wants yourself to hear.
I don’t generally express myself with out and out potty language but sometimes… You are speaking of an all-powerful being and all we can expect is a fucking sign? I don’t want a fucking sign, man; I want a tangible-fleshy-in-person greeting. At any time your god feels frisky enough, I’ve got a functioning doorbell.
Although I don’t think I’d like him to come visit anyway; he’s not a ‘person’ I’d really like know. Plain and simple, your god is asshole. Re: If there is someone who can step in (at no risk of his/hers own person) and help someone else who is being raped, murdered, or injured but doesn’t he/she is an asshole.
All your god does is watch.
He watches children starve.
He watches children die of cancer.
He watches children being molested.
He watches children being murdered.
He watches the innocent being used, abused and neglected.
He just watches.
It’s like he’s not there.
It’s like he doesn’t existed at all.
The concept of a loving, benevolent god is not just intellectually bankrupt but it is a full-body insult.
It's automatic, if you don't believe in God, then you must believe we all evolved from something ( how you people argue how something came from nothing, i'll never understand ). But open your eyes, look around.. It's like people are trying to proof a tornado flew through a junkyard, and formed an airport, planes and stores inside. That's how foolish you people are.
Just research the human eye, or heart. They did not come from random process.
I just pray you will not stop searching for God, even if you don't believe.. God wants you to believe in Him, but first you must search.
Creation: Creating a simple 100 component non-living organism would take 3 billion billion billion billion billion billion billion years. The simplest protein that can be termed "living" has 400 components.
________________________________
Evolution: Sexual reproduction came about by evolution
Creation: Two humans had to evolve at the same time and place, having complementary reproductive systems. If one system wasn't complete or compatible, the species would become extinct.
_________________________________
Evolution: Species evolve from other species
Creation: There are no fossils of transitional life forms. Organisms have never been found to cross the boundaries between species
_________________________________
evolution is science fiction, it's man's view on how life started, yet overwhelming evidence points to a creator.
Besides, you've still failed to address the mystery of life, you've only retreated into "we can never understand."
If there is a multi-faceted, incomprehensibly complex "GOD" who made everything, then you're admitting that something extraordinarily complex can simply exist for no presently explainable reason.
I wonder why it is easier to believe there is some unexplainable invisible deity than to simply admit that it is hard to understand nature?
Religious belief is odd.
___________________________
Creationism("magic"): NEITHER.
Next time?... at least vomit scientific fact, instead of apologetic rhetoric . Thanks.
1) Creating a simple 100 component non-living organism would take 3 billion billion ... billion years...
2) Two humans had to evolve at the same time and place, having complementary reproductive systems...
3) There are no fossils of transitional life forms...
If that's the case, then they're a sorry lot. What this illustrates with stunning clarity is how deathly afraid of asking questions they are. If I were in your shoes, Anonymous, I'd want to know where that number of "3 billion billion..." came from. I'd want to know whether scientists really posit that sexual reproduction came about by male and female evolving independently. I want to know whether scientists have identified any transitional forms. Have you seriously asked any of those questions, Anonymous? Truly, I'd like to know. If so, who did you ask? Where did you look for answers?
It seems to me that creationism consists of nothing more than clinging to dogmatic assertions while refusing to learn anything at all about the most fantastically successful enterprise ever undertaken by man: science.
I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer to my questions. If you do come back, I'll be happy to disabuse you of your pervasive misconceptions.
Have a really great weekend.
So people of different cultures create their "Gods" and they fight over whos "God" is real. This happens everyday. People die over religion every day. For something they don't even know exists. You can't keep saying that "it's safer to believe than it's not to believe" for an excuse and not giving a good reason or explanation for your God.
all that is is a bunch of crappy theories from OTHER PEOPLE!!!
as humans we are imperfect, so why are we trusting ourselves to know the meaning of life?
and that argument that everyone keeps saying "Well you can't see the easter bunny either"
DUH!!! the easter bunny is a bunny what means he's made up of MATTER.
if you actually READ the bible [not take random verses out of it that you think proves your little theory] you'll realize that God is a spirit. we can't see spirits; we can see demons and angels though. we are spirits, have souls, and live in a body, whereas God is just a spirit, plain and simple.
the simple truth is this: you either believe or you don't.
if you believe you have hope and know you are going to heaven to live with God forever.
if you don't believe, your life must suck. never knowing what's gonna happen when you die. gosh that would suck. and having all these pleasures in life, but never true bliss. no real hope.
and i see most of you 'nonbelievers' are arguing against the Christian God. how bout you argue against all a million of them. lol.
Bottom line: all of your 'evidence' is so unconvincing. all it is is theories and stereotyping and you keep pulling random verses out of the bible and talk about the tooth fairy, like THAT explains it all.
I WILL BELIEVE YOU WHEN YOU FIND ACTUAL EVIDENCE THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!!!!!
it's been like over 2000 years and people still haven't come up w/ FACTUAL evidence. haaaa it's true. it would be all over the news if there was proof, BUT THERE'S NOT!!!
'Nuff said. ROFLMAO!!!!!!
Bye now.
First I want to ask you if you believe that it is impossible to lead a moral life without guidance from the Bible?
Do you believe that Athiests are more disposed to wrong doings?
I for one am an Athiest and was raised to be very moral without having to look to a bible. Instead I look to my heart and my mind.
Also you mentioned an experience where you had passed out but were conscious and unable to move your body. You asked if anyone else had experienced this.
I have and many times to. It probably happens to me about once a year.
Its called Sleep paralysis and it happens to me when I have been dreaming and wake up. I try to move but cannot. I can't lift my arm or move my head. It actually freaks me out a little. But a minute later it passes and I can move again.
Here is a definition from Wikipedia:
Sleep paralysis is a condition characterized by temporary paralysis of the body shortly after waking up or, less often, shortly before falling asleep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
Next you had brought up many times that you think it would be better to just believe in God than not b/c you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
My question is not whether it is better but IS IT REALLY A CHOICE?
I don't ever really recall choosing not to believe in God. I just realized one day that I didn't. (I think I was around thirteen.) To me it didn't make sense not like it did to my friends and family.
And when I asked questions to try and make sense of it I only got non explanatory answers.
I can't just close my eyes and say that when I open them I am going to choose to believe in God.
Do you believe that you can choose NOT to believe in God right now and then in the next second you won't?
You believe in God because when you think about God he makes sense and feels true to you on a personal level this is the same reason that I don't belive in God.
This is merely what this entire posting is about. Athiests don't feel that God makes sense. It feels fake and untrue to us.
Its not about hating Christians or wanting to spread "diabolical forces".
If God made me than he made me a person who cannot believe in him.
Randalynn
No one believes in God that there is a God.
Now let me explain this statement.
If God came to me personally than I could say that I believe he is real, because he is real.
I could say this because I have experienced him in a way that was real to me.
However there are only a few people in history who claim that they have interacted with him and therefore can believe in him out of firsthand experience.
They believe in God b/c he told/showed them that he was there.
Everyone else has to have "FAITH".
And this is where the above statement comes into play.
No one has faith in God that there is a God.
They have to have faith in whoever told them there is a God, that God is real.
You can believe in the Bible that there is a God.
Or a preacher, or your parents that there is a God.
But all of these sources are not divine they are falliable.
So Athiests have mereley asked the question:
"Why would I put blind faith in a falliable source?"
This is why so many of us state that if there is a God, and he wants us to believe in him, then he should present himself in a way that would actually result in us believing in him.
This to Christians is an arrogant thing to say. Why should God have to prove himself, that would eliminate the need for faith.
I say no it wouldn't, it would just get that one huge roadblock out of the way.
If I knew he was real I would still have to have faith in his "Grand Plan" and that all the suffering in the world has a reason. That he either created evil or allowed it and that for some reason it was needed.
(And for all the Free Will people out there on evil and the devil:
I have a son, I want him to be independent and have Free Will but that does not mean that I would allow him to go about the world doing evil things. If he was torturing, killing and commiting other people to suffer than I would feel morally obligated to stop him.
And if I was omnipotent and could see beforehand that he would cause great suffering than I would choose not to have him.
Sorry got sidetracked. LOL.
I hope this helps to show Christians what Athiests mean when they say that Faith and God doesn't work for them.
And why we feel the need for proof.
Randalynn
This is a key point,
"They have to have faith in whoever told them there is a God, that God is real."
Chrustians think, surely this person or the Bible would not mislead them in any way? Their faith and trust lies in other humans, in hopes that they have some kmowledge unbenounced to them,
Yet they are/were misled, and yes by their trusted religious official(s).
Very insightful, keep it coming! Thanks!
Why debate the existence of gods? Quite simply, to encourage individuals to question the many ridiculous and harmful mythologies that still plague humanity. A skeptical mind has survival value. A complacent, overly accepting mind is easily controlled and easily destroyed.
Why should I take the time to examine "all information out there in the world"? Most of the world does not, and will not, touch upon my life. I am not interested in learning "the absolute truth" about anything, because relative truth works just fine. I can build an excellent wall with a measuring tape accurate only to 1/16 of an inch. I can bake a cake with inexact amounts of baking powder, and tie my shoelaces differently every single time. Why should I waste my life with the myth of perfection when I can be out there gleefully doing lots of fun things "imperfectly" till the day that I just don't wake up in the morning?
And why should I ask anything in the name of a long-dead and possibly never-existing man?
No, but what information out there would be worth listening to? Moreover, how would you choose to validate information presented to you by another person? If you can't answer the question, then you can't validate the information "you" personally, hold, and thus, your entire post becomes speculative to say the least.
Anonymous: "Have you processed every last piece of it, from the dawn of man."
Determine whether or not the elements that make up information are finite/infinite. Define information based on form. Let me know when you're done, and lets see if you can argue that mankind doesn't in "fact" process all form types of data elements that make up information.
Superficial questions, created to stir doubt in others, is the hallmark of ignorance. Anonymous, please, by all means, prove to me, that I haven't processed all informational data types/forms. Prove to me that all form elements have/don't have a common origin.
Your ignorance, doesn't substantiate a reason for me to doubt my knowledge. Prove to me, why my knowledge, has been erroneously developed/clustered based on faulty processing. Care to define the "right" neurological process?
By the way, while you are at it, humanity mentally models reality, it's how we "build" a conscience. And, we are not much different in that aspect than other animalia.
"First Evidence to Show Elephants, Like Humans, Apes And Dolphins, Recognize Themselves in the Mirror
By Yerkes National Primate Research Center, Emory University, and the Wildlife Conservation Society"
http://healthnewsdigest.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=12&num=4700
Do you know what a mirror is? Can you explain how an ape recognizes themselves in the mirror? What is a conscience? What does it mean to be conscious? Do animals have personalities? How do you know?
If you are capable of answering a number of these questions, please, by all means, come back. If you can't... the knowledge you hold doesn't even allow you to ask the more poignant questions corrctly.
I think it's "almost" humorous that you postulate a question on universal information, without holding universal information... lets see how you do with just plain old information you hold in your memory banks. What makes "your" information, more tenable/valid than anyone elses'?
Well...its kinda fun. I have always liked to debate, I enjoy learning about different view points and accumulating knowledge.
Its the reason people debate anything. You gather as much information as you can, find the answer that you believe is true and then you stand by that answer and defend it.
This is what civilization is built on: the gathering of information so that it can be used to advance society. There will always be people who believe that their way is better than anothers and they will debate passionately for their way to be accepted.
Now as for anonymous' post I always find it cute when someone preaches in a post and then assumes in the end that they have "hit a nerve yet?" and as for "wanting us to think about it really hard," I think that has always been the difference between believers and non believers.
We HAVE thought about it and sorry, it didn't add up. If you want to make a list of Christian beliefs that make sense and ones that don't well ONE side would be really long...
Also as for it taking more faith to be an Athiest than to be a Christian. I don't really get it. Why does it take more faith to believe in a Big Bang than the Big Guy in the Sky?
And if you want to know how could the Big Bang start.
Well how could God start?
Right now neither science nor faith can answer these questions but at least science gives us the hope of one day knowing.
And besides it encourages people to find answers for themselves.
"We cant buy his love, we can do things to make him loves us more"
It should have read Can't do things to make him loves us more"
See i'm just a reguarly guy like yourself, making mistakes just living my life the best I can, just like you. But I know I sin and I sin on a daily basis. God cant live with sin that is why you can never be good enough by yourself. You need a Redeemer to be your advocate. I dont hate any of you for having your views, I dont know you. If I found a 10 pound piece of Gold wouldn't you want me to tell where I found it. So please dont get upset when you read the stuff I have to say. Its not put out there to offend but it is a gift that I accepted and believe in. You should have the chance to know and to recive for yourself for it is free and waiting for you.
Guess what? We've already found your gold and it turned out otbe worthless a lie a total fabrication and a bucket of shit!!!
Prove to us you're a Christian.
Mark 16:17 Drink poison and handle snakes, then come back and tell us what a great True Christian you really are!!!
Okay, I won’t ask science to, I’ll ask YOU to. Without any reference to your bible, show us evidence of the Christian god. Any time in the next few minutes would be fine.
The shackles you refer to are the ones you keep on your brain to prevent rational thinking. Again, without referencing your bible, because that is the ONLY place it exists, what “sin” are you talking about?
No problem not believing in the Christian god. I don’t.
You aren’t a regular guy like us. First, there are several ladies who regularly post here as well, but most importantly, you’re a narrow-minded fundamentalist who thinks he has the BIG answer to bring all of us poor lost souls back to his Christian god…just believe. Just believe the whole Christian fairy tale is real, and it will become real.
Tell you what Tinkerbelle, to keep from saying something really obscene to you, I’ll just say…HAR-HAR-HARDY-HAR-HAR!!!
Would we expect gods to have generally bad syntax?
"I'm not arrogant, I'm humble! Oh, and God wants me to tell you..."
You can't ask science to prove the existence of God for science is within God.
Anonymous, you absolutely can ask science to prove the existence of God. The studies that have been done, like the Harvard prayer study, have not produced any evidence whatsoever of God's existence. Most religious people think God is an active force that causes or influences events here on Earth, if that is true then we can examine these effects in a scientific way, just like any other phenomena. Unless of course you think science doesn't really describe reality, in which case you are free to read the Bible instead of seeking medical care next time you are sick, or you think everything around us is an illusion, in which case you are free to step in front of a bus and see what happens.
Anonymous, your entire essay is testimony to the fact that you know almost nothing about which you speak. You make completely ridiculous assertions about what an atheist must believe, apparently because you've never bothered to ask an atheist what they believe. So, let's get a few things straight, shall we?
I am an atheist. Does that mean I have examined every corner of the universe looking for god? No. What I have done is to examine the claims that humans have made regarding this hypothetical being, and I've done so earnestly and methodically for decades. In absolutely EVERY case that I have examined, the reasoning is fallacious and the data is unreliable; in fact, in the VAST MAJORITY of the cases, the fallacies are both numerous and blatant, and the data is virtually nonexistent. Therefore, I reject the extraordinary claims that religionists make.
But wait, there's more. YOU TOO do this very same thing (albeit less methodically, I'll wager). You have rejected Zeus, presumably because there is nothing to support the idea of his existence. You probably harbor no belief in Mithra, Osiris, Isis, or Attis, despite the legions of people who have earnestly worshiped them and built temples to them, and I'll bet you haven't even tried to examine the evidence for their existence. Don't forget, simply being IGNORANT of the evidence doesn't make it go away, right? There might be "proof" of one or more of these deities, you just haven't found it yet. I guess that means you had better believe in them all, just in case, right? Or will you continue to be an atheist, like us, with respect to those deities?
Now, if the foolishness of your position is not yet starkly evident, come on back and we can walk you through it step by step. Be prepared to defend your LACK of belief in Zeus, Mithra, Osiris, etc., because you need to answer to every single argument that YOU have raised thus far in defense of your chosen deity.
Good day.
(This psychoanalysis session has been provided free of charge.)
Answer: Click here.
Statement: Without him, I'm nothing.
Conclusion: Then you are nothing, because He doesn't exist.
Manic raving: no matter what you think or say HE LOVES YOU.
Sarcastic response: And if I don't love HIM back, HE's going to fry my ass in the most sadistic torture chamber imaginable. HE'll never let me die or escape. I will be cruelly and mercilessly tormented forever!
Reminds me of my first wife.
Here, here is your blankey, and here, put the thumb back into your mouth. There!
*suck*suck*suck*
That's all better now isn't it? Just think of it as your "Jesus" thumb. Cram it in your mouth and everything will be alright.
*suck*suck*suck****
"http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/07/not-ready-to-be-nice.html"
You dont want to be nice and fry my computer cause I say things you can't handle. Come on play nicely now. We are just talking. I think you are a very smart man. You are a better speaker then I. I just want to tlak and have the same right you all love as much as I do.
Bye now.
"Weak" and "a sinner"....and yet, you were "made in the image of God". Hmmmmm... 'sounds like a love-connection to me. Best wishes to the both of you.
Except God cannot save souls, he needs a demi-god to do that for him!
god would be a being without any physical attributes all descriptions of god are not real just metaphors for certain actions god "did" how can you ask how can god allow evil your defining evil in your own terms in order to disproove god maybe what you percieve as bad is part of pefection of the universe the going with the simpler answer is used but is not a proof god not being able to create a rock he cannot pick up is also ridiculis since god is not physical and therefore there are no imposibilities you can phathom that god cant do ancient religions that saw god as a woman since she creates life is not better than making god a man they are both ridiculis for a non physical being I suggest reading guide to the perplexed by maimonides you do not no god by what he does since you cannot no him but rather by negative knowledege you can say what he is not for instanse god is not big
eistein was saying since god created the universe in aperfect and complex manner understanding the universe helped him see the greatness of god and brought him to an apreciation of a creator
Quran:"And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little."(Children of Israel 17.85)
Dear colleagues, once you find out the “substance” of spirit/soul then you’ll find out what God does mean!!, the top now we can reach is a Pentium 4, 5 whatever .., it couldn’t be compared to an Alive bug !!
However if u don’t feel satisfied being a Christian or Jewish, then just take a deep look to what Islam means.., it’s not Ignorance, neither Backwardness.. it about freedom and total confidence !!
Quran:"And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little."(Children of Israel17.85)
Dear colleagues, once you find out the “substance” of spirit/soul then you’ll find out what God does mean!!, the top now we can reach is a Pentium 4, 5 whatever .., it couldn’t be compared to an Alive bug !!
However if u don’t feel satisfied being a Christian or Jewish, then just take a deep look to what Islam means.., it’s not Ignorance, neither Backwardness.. it about freedom and total confidence !!
Hi & good day from a Muslim,
Quran:"And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little."(Children of Israel17.85)
Dear colleagues, once you find out the “substance” of spirit/soul then you’ll find out what God does mean!!, the top now we can reach is a Pentium 4, 5 whatever .., it couldn’t be compared to an Alive bug !!
However if u don’t feel satisfied being a Christian or Jewish, then just take a deep look to what Islam means.., it’s not Ignorance, neither Backwardness.. it about freedom and total confidence !!
>>
You've got to be joking. So, you really think we're going to dump one bogus religion and then join another?? Har har! Barking up the wrong tree, my friend! -Wes.
sertyopklopklop@aim.com">"afterlife"
sertyopklopklop@aim.com
for those of you who want to wait till He returns to believe, go ahead. i'm a firm believer in God and in the redemptive work Christ did on the cross. we the church have not lived as we ought before God and so we have brought insult to His name. some of you left the Faith because of that, some of you saw the hypocrisy and so on and left. did any of you try to live in a manner more pleasing to God/in the way you thought Christians ought to live or did you simply leave the Faith?
it is one thing to note hypocrisy but to then do nothing about it makes you no better, in fact, you are just as guilty.
Just quote a bible verse and we’ll all realize the error of our ways!
And the icing on the christian cake is, point out how we’re not living our lives like christians!
…All those past foolish christians who came here prior to this latest anonymous. Tsk, tsk!
How could all the other fundamentalists and bible-thumping busybodies have missed it?
--->The theodicé problem
Indeed, God cannot be almighty if He is limited by any characteristic or trait. God is indeed greater than all things. Christ said, "All things are possible with God." This means God has no limitations. He is not even limited by good or evil.
However, God is good. So how can we say both? Quite obviously, because God chose to be good. He chose to limit Himself. The way God did this is by giving birth to a Son. In God's son is the embodiment of all that God is. In Hebrews 1:3, it says that the son is "the exact representation of His nature." Though all things are possible for God, He chose His Son to be the representation of His nature.
The birth of God's Son occurred at the beginning of creation before anything else. It was the very first event. The bible says "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth."
--->The ontological evidence against gods
There are two reasons why God does not answer prayer, and why this reasoning fails. 1) A person prays to the wrong God. 2) The person is not in a right relationship with God. They have sinned against God. If a person has wronged God, why should He answer?
If a person approaches the throne of God and has not been reconciled of sin, God would have no choice but to execute justice. When God does not answer a prayer, it is out of mercy.
--->The meaning of the word existence
God gives existence to all things. God is the unchangeable "I AM." However, everything else changes. Everything else is variable. Because God never changes and is always the same, everything else can have a basis for existence. Otherwise, based upon the definition of existence, nothing really exists. There is nothing of which we can relate that does not change.
God has given of Himself to provide existence to all things. We exist because God exists. If God did not exist, what basis would we have to exist? Could we even say that we exist?
--->Occam's razor
God is not merely the reason for all things, but a necessary reason. Many people in the field of science say that God is not a viable explanation. However, what many in science don't realize is that they need God or else science becomes obsolete.
The entire basis of science is math, logic, and experimentation. A scientist studies the universe looking for explanations of how it works. What a scientist discovers is natural principles at work governing the universe. This natural order is measured in the language of mathematics. The entire universe follows this language.
Within the universe is a certain rational. The scientist goes about studying on this basis: that everything has a logical explanation. We can say everything has a logical explanation because the universe is based upon God's Word which is filled with wisdom (logic and reasoning).
If the universe were random, then we would not expect everything to have a logical explanation. Rather, everything would be random. A person may ask, "why does an apple fall off a tree?" In a random universe, the answer would be: "because it is random." However, science does not accept such a proposition. Science says, "There must be a reason. The reason is gravity."
And so, science needs God as the basis for all reason in the universe, or else science is obsolete. Without God, all things merely occur randomly. And so, if there is no God, there is no rational explanation for anything.
--->Some things are impossible to do:
God set forth His Word to be the supreme authority governing all things. His Word bears wisdom. It has a particular logic that governs all things. We can easily see through science that all things follow a particular logic. This has been established by God's Word.
Indeed, there are things impossible to do. This is because God has established His Word as the supreme authority over all things. God's Word is absolute and does not change.
However, God is greater than His Word. He will always be greater than His Word. He is in control of His Word. This means that if God wants to walk on water, He can do so freely without upsetting anything. He is the one in control. There is no contradiction here.
--->Omnipotence is impossible due to paradoxes
Free will is not free choice. God has given free will to men. However, God has not given men the freedom to do whatever they want. Inside, we may want to fly, however, does that mean we can fly?
Many people confuse free will with free action. We do not have free choice. We have free will. We have the freedom to believe whatever we want. We can believe in Santa Claus. We can believe in anything. We can even believe there is no God, when there is really is a God. The fact that you can sit and say "there is no God" is because God gave you that freedom.
In addition, our beliefs are based upon things we have learned. For instance, we believe in Santa Clause because it originated from a person that actually lived. However, the concept of God is not based upon anything we could have imagined. God is beyond anything we know. Thus, the only way we could ever conceive of God is if we actually had interacted with Him at one point in the past. If God had never existed, we would never know. We would not be arguing over God because we could not have imagined Him.
--->We would never notice god
Again, the problem here is that the author does not know about God's Son. God is above and beyond all things. He is greater space and time. Being this is true, how then can we know God? He is beyond us. If God does interact with the world, like he says, then God would change all things, not one thing.
God gave birth to a Son. This Son is the image of God. Through this Son, we may know God and interact with God.
As far as prayer is concerned, the author doesn't know the purpose of prayer. We do not pray to God in order to influence God. God does not change and if He changed according to our desire, the world would be evil just as we are evil. Rather, prayer is about being united with God as one. When we pray, we are to pray "in the name" of Christ. When we pray, we are sharing in the person of God. We are sharing in all that God is. We are asking God for things He has already planned on giving us. The purpose of prayer is not to get. This is a selfish point of view. It is to give. True prayer is the acknowledgment of God. It is saying, "I love you God."
The author says, "Do it yourself." However, this is an ignorant statement. The author is telling people to act in ignorance. God knows all things. We only know what we see through our narrow vision. We cannot possibly know all the ramifications of our actions. However, if we pray to God and allow God to work in us, then God can control us. This means our actions will be based upon God who is supremely good and knows all things. However, if we act independently of God, then we will most likely cause harm. Hence, why the earth is suffering from things like global warming. The earth is dying because humans have acted independently relying on themselves rather than God.
--->Nobody really believes in god
Faith that is blind is no faith at all. When we are a child, we might believe in Santa Claus waiting all night for him to come. When he doesn't show, we realize our faith was false. As such, we never had faith to begin with.
My faith is not dependent on me. In many religions, people believe in God because they believe. Their faith is dependent on them. Just like the child who believed in Santa Claus. All faith needs to have evidence. Even the writer of Hebrews said in verse 11:1, "Faith is the evidence of things unseen." True faith is not blind. True faith has evidence.
The Christian faith is based upon a God who saves His people from their sins. The work of Christ in the lives of sinners is the evidence for faith. When we call out to Jesus to save us from our sins, and He does save us, then our faith is proven.
My faith is proven. When I called upon Christ to save me, He saved me. I was a smoker, drinker, fornicator, blasphemer and more. I was suicidal and depressed. Christ changed me. I no longer do any of those things because Jesus saved me. I now have an abundant life.
God is an active part of my life. He is with me. If you could live with me for a time, you would see this is true. You would see Jesus working in my life.
--->Epilogue
There is reasonable cause to believe in God. For anyone to say there is no God is only foolishness. A person says there is no God because they want to be in control of themselves. They want to be their own God. They don't want to believe in God because if they did believe in God, they would have to give an account to God for all the wrong they have committed.
If anyone wants a reasonable cause to believe in Jesus Christ, look at the condition of humanity. We need help. We need a savior. We are hopeless. We need a God who can redeem us and make us new.
Only the fool says, "We don't need any help. We can do it ourselves." All I can say in response to this is: keep trying. Let me know how it goes.
However, for anyone who is spiritually sick and needs a doctor, Jesus Christ is alive.
by Blake Kidney
The birth of God's Son occurred at the beginning of creation before anything else.
Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)
There are two reasons why God does not answer prayer...
You forgot #3: The god doessn't actually exist and is therefore not capable of answering prayers.
God gives existence to all things. God is the unchangeable "I AM."
Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)
If God did not exist, what basis would we have to exist? Could we even say that we exist?
Hey, I'm right here. Obviously I do have a basis for my existence. It isn't necessarily the god that you worship, though.
God is not merely the reason for all things, but a necessary reason... What many in science don't realize is that they need God or else science becomes obsolete.
This "necessary being" business always struck me as a bit silly. Even if you can prove a necessary "first cause", you're nowhere near proving that the "necessary" is a sentient being, let alone the god of the Bible. Prove the necessity before you go any further here.
...Everything has a logical explanation because the universe is based upon God's Word which is filled with wisdom (logic and reasoning).
Are you positive that absolutely everything *must* have a logical explanation? If so, please use logic to explain where your alleged god came from.
If the universe were random, then we would not expect everything to have a logical explanation. Rather, everything would be random.
The universe is not "random." It is based on physical laws which are, in turn, based on the properties of physical elements such as electrons, photons and other minuscule particles. Things that are alike enough to be classified as such will share various properties and exhibit phenomenae that we later classify as forms of energy. For example, if enough electron-type particles move thisaway or thataway, an electric charge manifests. No deities are required.
You're also running afoul of the anthropic principle here: Life appears non-random to us *only* because we happen to reside in a life-supporting region of a massive and disorganized universe. I don't know if "life" exists in more chaotic areas. Perhaps it does; and perhaps we would not even recognize it as life because of perceptual biases.
God set forth His Word to be the supreme authority governing all things.
Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)
God gave birth to a Son. This Son is the image of God.
Proof, please? (And not from the Bible.)
My faith is proven. When I called upon Christ to save me, He saved me. I was a smoker, drinker, fornicator, blasphemer and more. I was suicidal and depressed. Christ changed me.
Many people have done these things without the help of your god. I am of the opinion that you inspired your own resolve with the Jesus story, and saved yourself.
If anyone wants a reasonable cause to believe in Jesus Christ, look at the condition of humanity. We need help. We need a savior.
Like the one who's supposedly coming back to destroy the world? No, thanks.
Ultimately, if your prayer isn't answered, it's your own fault.
That is the coldest and most callous doctrine in Christianity and is responsible for given untold heartache to Christian parents with sick and dying children.
Blake, you are an ass.
Considering your post, I don't think anything would lead you to believe God exists. As such, there is no point in arguing with you.
However, I would like to point out one thing. You said, "The universe is not 'random.'"
I would have to say that I agree. The universe is not random. However, if the universe is not random and did not occur by mere chance, then this would mean that there is an intelligence behind it.
So, do you believe God exists or not? How can you say the universe is not random, and then say there is no God?
Lastly...
I am of the opinion that you inspired your own resolve with the Jesus story, and saved yourself.
Proof please?
Thanks,
Blake
Quote: "Ultimately, if your prayer isn't answered, it's your own fault.
That is the coldest and most callous doctrine in Christianity and is responsible for given untold heartache to Christian parents with sick and dying children."
Thank you for proving my point. The problem is not an intellectual one, it is a moral one. Who is greater, you or God?
If a child is sick and dying, and God has allowed it, then it serves a purpose. We do not know everything or see the entire puzzle or equation. We can only see the sick and dying child. We cannot see the ramifications of this on a large scale. In our ignorance, we say, "It's wrong and unfair." But who are we to say such a thing?
God created the human body. He certainly can raise it and repair it. He has that control. However, God has given up His right to control a person's heart. He cannot force you to believe anything.
In the grand scale of things, God allows evil and suffering to exist in order to help people see the need for God. He has done this in order to help them believe.
In the garden of Eden, life was all happiness and flowers. That didn't satisfy Adam and Eve. They still wanted more.
A good father never spoils a child. If a father gave his daughter everything she wanted, she would become extremely selfish. However, if a father allowed her to suffer some, she would learn and grow. A good father disciplines his children.
In my life I have suffered many things and God has allowed it. I do not enjoy suffering, but I would never trade in my sufferings. In each, I learned valuable things that helped shape me and mold me.
God values suffering. In a world without God, life is meaningless. Suffering is meaningless. However, God is Holy and full of meaning. He values all suffering. Jesus Christ suffered on the cross in immense agony. He did this willingly. It was His choice. Why would He do such a thing?
God is good. We cannot understand all His ways, but He is good. The problem is with us. A person who truly trusted in God would have faith in Him. They would believe that even though they suffer it is for a greater good they cannot understand. However, a person with no faith would approach God in anger, "Why would you let my child die?!!"
One day, those questions will be answered. Each person will be rewarded their fair portion. The question you must ask yourself is where will you be when that happens?
Of course, it is easier to believe God doesn't exist. Then you don't have to be accountable.
Blake
Blake wrote “If a child is sick and dying, and God has allowed it, then it serves a purpose. We do not know everything or see the entire puzzle or equation. We can only see the sick and dying child. We cannot see the ramifications of this on a large scale. In our ignorance, we say, "It's wrong and unfair." But who are we to say such a thing?”
See, no explanation is needed - God allows it and it serves his purpose, so who are we to judge? By using Blake’s logic, I don’t see why we even need hospitals; everything that happens is just God’s will, so nothing we mortals do will make any difference. May as well just send these kids home to die with the comforting knowledge that they are serving God’s purpose by suffering so terribly. I don’t know what lesson Blake thinks anyone will learn but Blake alludes to a One-Size-Fits-All-Answer – “It’s the mystery of God”.
In one of Blake’s earlier posts he made this claim: “God has not given men the freedom to do whatever they want. Inside, we may want to fly, however, does that mean we can fly?
I don’t know about where you like Blake but I can go over to my neighborhood airport, climb into a Cessna 172R and take off. I have the skills and the freedom to do it, so yes, I can fly.
But maybe you are actually suggesting that if we weren’t born with the physical capability, then god didn’t mean for us to do it. (I guess having the intelligence to accomplish it by other means doesn’t count.) Since our bodies were not born with the capacity to travel in space, we should abandon the space program. After all, God didn’t give us the ability to exist outside of the thin shell that protects us on this planet. Nor do we have the physical capabilities to dive very deep in the ocean. Using Blake’s clear, God-inspired logic, those submariners are acting against the will of god.
This is probably just a waste of time pointing these things out to Blake, because there is another One-Size-Fits-All excuse Blake will most likely fall back on for why I fail to understand, “Satan has blinded me”.
And that's what religious absolute thinking brings. A child's death is good! Everything is good!
Who needs medicine? If the Lard wants the child dead, well then who are we to argue.
Pathetic. Thank reason that the Blakes of the world are somewhat marginalized in the public domain. We don't need another ignorant Dark Ages under the absolute tyrant of Christianity.
Blake wrote: "In a world without God, life is meaningless."
How is a world where the only purpose is to be a god's play toy more meaningful than a world without a god? My life has meaning because a deity wants my worship? Your life is worthless unless you have a god to worship?
Who makes this nonsense up? Why would any swallow this lunacy?
I don't care if there is a god or a dog, my life is quite meaningful to me. I'm sorry you have to find an invisible friend to make your life worth living.
Wow.
Blake, you rambled on and on about the value of suffering, and then you throw out that people don't believe in your God so they don't have to be accountable?
WTF? I am accountable to my boss at work, my wife, my kids, my parents, the government, my neighbors, my creditors... I am so damned accountable that I need an accountant to keep track of it all.
I don't believe in your mythological, torture-loving, invisible despot in the sky, because the whole idea of an all-good, omni-powerful being that thinks inflicting pain and suffering is GOOD is hideously perverse.
There is no God. I challenge you to contact this ridiculous God of yours and have him strike me dead tonight! Is that too hard for HIM? Well then ask him, plead with him, beg him, and flagellate yourself as a sacrifice to him, so that this website will be shut down! Do it as a sign to all that THY GOD REIGNS!
It won't happen, Blake, because your god doesn't exist anywhere except in your imagination.
Considering your post, I don't think anything would lead you to believe God exists.
Probably not. In my nearly fifty years on this planet, I have seen no credible evidence for the Biblical god.
I would have to say that I agree. The universe is not random. However, if the universe is not random and did not occur by mere chance, then this would mean that there is an intelligence behind it.
No, not necessarily. Structure does not require intelligence or sentience. It merely requires a consistent aggregation of smaller structures. Put ten pennies on a table and arrange them into a triangle, and you will see what I mean. Or, alternatively, mix a lot of salt or sugar in a jar of water and dangle a piece of string in the liquid. Crystals will form all by themselves. They do this because the molecules just happen to fit together in nice patterns.
So, do you believe God exists or not?
No, I do not believe in a creator-god of any sort. I believe that god-like beings are possible, but with relatively limited and localized powers. And I have yet to prove the existence of any such beings, even the ones that I personally would like to exist. They inhabit my own imagination, and manifest through my own actions or not at all.
I definitely do not believe in the all-powerful deity described in the Bible. In my opinion, that god exhibits primarily alpha-human traits and was probably imagined up by the priests of some Mesopotamian ruling elite. It simply does not conform to what my intuition tells me a god would be like.
"I am of the opinion that you inspired your own resolve with the Jesus story, and saved yourself." Proof please?
Purely subjective and anecdotal on my part, hence my disclaimer "I am of the opinion that..." I myself, and other people that I know, have improved our lives without calling for religious intervention. If we could do it, it just makes sense that you could have done as we did.
I'm still here.
Why would I spend so much of my time debating with you if I wanted you dead? Only a fool would waste their time. I only write these things because I care. I would dare not pray such a thing. You are alive this very day because God wants you alive.
"Well then ask him, plead with him, beg him, and flagellate yourself as a sacrifice to him, so that this website will be shut down! Do it as a sign to all that THY GOD REIGNS!"
As for your website, I will pray. I will pray that the Lord will shut down your website for a time. However, it will be brought back and you will be the one to say "My God reigns."
In the name of Jesus Christ,
Blake
Do you want to know what I think? You fear. In the depths of your heart you fear that there may be a god and you'll be punished for your sins. You try to find an evidence (and all the bullshit in the article is NOT evidence) to ease your fear. I have no problem in my life due to my faith. I follow the Christian teachings and I have no problem. If you have problems following the Christian teachings you surely have done very hard sins in your life. That's why you HOPE there's no God above...
And OK, let's say you are absolutely pure and others, just don't want to believe in God... let me say something:
There are 4 possibilities:
1: God doesn't exist and you do not believe. Then there's no problem at all.
2:God doesn't exist but you believe he does. Then you live a good life without sins then die. Is it a problem?
3: God exists and you believe. Congrats, Heaven awaits!
4:God exists but you do NOT belive. You suck..............
Then, which is the best option? Undoubtly the way of faith. You have nothing to lose.
Oh, and one thing. The author of the article missed something: God is not about understanding. You're (we're) too stupid to understand. He's about faith. Of course I'm curious too about everything he wrote. You know what? I'll ask God after I died.
All beliefs and your language come through mimicking what is taught by other humans only.
Now to prove to you or anyone, that neither a God nor a Jesus exists, all beliefs taught to you, disappear when you go to sleep, they disappear when you are unconscious, they disappear when you are under anesthesics, they disappear when you are dead, so this proves 100% that all things learned while your brain is conscious, suddenly disappears when your brain is either dead or unconscious.
Imagine all people removed from the Earth, God and Jesus and all Gods and myths suddenly disappear, Where do they go? They do not exist, they exist only in the conscious mind. Gods and myths are only from the fabrication of the human mind.
I challenge anyone to prove my statement in Bold above, to be wrong or untrue!
Now let me state that I really let myself go on this one and let myself believe that there actually is a god while I was praying.
I used a 3 minute approach because it's all the same anyway. Well I relieved that I am still here, no evidence, and still know that religion is bunk. I just can't believe that I allowed myself to believe for all of 3 minutes... what a waste.
Good refresher though!
1) God does not exist + You do not believe = nothing happens
2) God does not exist + You believe = given you don't pester people about their personal beliefs, no harm done
3) God DOES exist + you do believe = you go to heaven
4) God DOES exist + you DON'T believe = you STILL go to heaven
hence, why waste your time?
what have u got to lose if u belive in God?? If u don't believe in God, and u find out there is 1, you'll be sorry!! Plus, god is AWESOME and he loves EVERYONE!! You people that don't believe in him are basically slapping Him in the face reapeatedly, but He STILL LOVES U....DOESN'T THAT TELL U SOMETHING?? WHO DO U KNOW THAT WILL LOVE U NO MATTER WHAT???!! THERE'S NO1 LIKE THAT, NO MATTER WHAT U THINK/SAY!!
I say u give God a try for about a month, and if u don't like Him, the Devil will be GLAD to take u back and destroy ur life, and trick u and cause u pain... and etc. need i say more?? :)
God is VERY REAL...
Prove it. You can start by asking your god to heal a few thousand amputees. Should be a cakewalk for an all-powerful being, right?
what have u got to lose if u belive in God??
My self-respect and countless hours of time that would be better spent elsewhere.
If u don't believe in God, and u find out there is 1, you'll be sorry!! Plus, god is AWESOME and he loves EVERYONE!!
Explain the contradiction in the above statement, please. Also explain why we should be afraid of *your* god but not worry about other religions and their gods and their version of hell. I understand that the Islamic hell is even nastier than the Christian version.
You people that don't believe in him are basically slapping Him in the face reapeatedly, but He STILL LOVES U....DOESN'T THAT TELL U SOMETHING??
Um... the "Submissive Jesus" thread is here, luv.
WHO DO U KNOW THAT WILL LOVE U NO MATTER WHAT???!!
I have eight cats. :-) And, unlike your god, they don't threaten to burn me for all eternity. (They do, however, keep my feet warm on cold winter nights.)
I say u give God a try for about a month, and if u don't like Him, the Devil will be GLAD to take u back and destroy ur life, and trick u and cause u pain... and etc. need i say more?? :)
Yes. You forgot this:
"Remember! Order before midnight tonight and we'll throw in TEN, count 'em, ten plagues (only available in Egypt); a worldwide flood; four genuine Apocalyptic horsemen; and a dead fig tree."
Seriously: With gods like that, who needs devils?
If the existence of God cannot be proved, how did the idea of God become known to the human race in the first place?
If it comes down to trusting that a human had divine intervention with God, then surely the argument must not be about the existence of God, but about truth behind the words of a human being.
If someone told you he knows that tooth fairies really do take teeth from under children's pillows at night; and another person said that this was something his imagination made up, which statement would you - honestly, in your heart - believe?
We live in a world where everything must be proven. Courts of law are one of the bedrocks of so called civilised society. Everything has to be proven in a court of law. Why then must we believe the words of a another human being that he had a divine intervention with God.
I have an interesting exercise. Spend some time creating in your imagination some almighty force - an all seeing hippopotamus, or your own God, perhaps; and, beginning with the most weak minded gullible person you can find, tell them of your divine intervention. Convince them of your belief; tell them to have faith. Then when you have convinced them, work on another, and another. Soon you will have a following, and power comes from numbers. Maybe your group can collect enough money to build a house of worship.
I am being cynical here; but the idea of God really comes down to believeing the words of persons who lived thousands of years ago.
The closest thing to the idea of God is our imaginations. We use our imagination to create anything we want. Look at some of the most famous stories of our times - Star Wars, The Lord of The Rings. The imagination has no limits. Maybe someone's imagination is where the ultimate of all fables came from.
If God exists, and he loves us all, then why are he and the devil playing the sickest game of all?
Gabmling is a sin, is it not.
If so, then we are all taking the ultimate gamble with our souls. 1: We can believe in God and go to heaven, or 2: we can believe in God and go to hell. Just as there is the possibility that that God might exist, there is also the possibility that the devil might be tricking all believers in God to going to hell.
Which is the right decision? No one knows or will ever know. We are born, we suffer, we die, they are the only things in our lives we are certain of. After that, who knows...
I was really hoping someone would bring up Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem here...
Great website!
No matter the arguments made even in a well cited 100,000 page essay, no valid conclusion could be drawn on this topic. Why? Simply because human beings cannot elevate their minds to the degree necessary to see or understand God...it is impossible. Thus the irony, one shall never prove nor disprove the reality or existence of a God, to anyone but themselves...for each of us exists in our own personal reality.
It is a futile topic to address, because any "conclusions" are purely speculative, and personal assumptions made based upon one's own perspective.
Good luck with which came first, the chicken or the egg as well. I look forward to your lackluster attempt at addressing that connundrum as well.
Sincerely, Austin, Texas
No matter the arguments made even in a well cited 100,000 page essay, no valid conclusion could be drawn on this topic. Why? Simply because human beings cannot elevate their minds to the degree necessary to see or understand God...it is impossible. Thus the irony, one shall never prove nor disprove the reality or existence of a God, to anyone but themselves...for each of us exists in our own personal reality.
It is a futile topic to address, because any "conclusions" are purely speculative, and personal assumptions made based upon one's own perspective.
Good luck with which came first, the chicken or the egg as well. I look forward to your lackluster attempt at addressing that connundrum as well.
Sincerely, Austin, Texas
Agreed. What gets bothersome about for me is that in my fundamentalist upbringing I had to endure most of the peole I knew insisting that they did INDEED know the Will of this very God (whose reality we know is impossible to prove as you say).
Ay, there's the rub. We can't prove his reality or lack thereof, but we can still tell you exactly how to live your life based on His Will that we believe we DO know.
It doesn't even make sense.
God is in few or maybe no religion believed to be the creator of evil. He simply gives his most intelligent creature (that’s supposed to be you and I) complete free will. Our purpose is simple, to fellowship with God, and in some religions to bring others to fellowship with us.
He is almighty, but does not want to allow his children to run around like mindless robots, simple toys. NO. Instead my friend, he chooses to let his friends (that’s us again smarty pants) choose to be with him.
God is almighty, but only uses his power on occasion, therefore his people may exercise freedom. Think, would you rather live under a monarchy who is brilliant and would rule fairly and justly so that all would prosper, or would you like your freedom, and therefore be allowed to live as YOU see fit?
He is good, for he blesses his people when they do good.
You see just is good, but not always in tune with a bubble-gum pop culture. God is just first, nice second. Punishments are well deserved my friend.
You made some interestingly dogmatic statements.
You said, "God is in few or maybe no religion believed to be the creator of evil. He simply gives his most intelligent creature (that’s supposed to be you and I) complete free will. Our purpose is simple, to fellowship with God, and in some religions to bring others to fellowship with us."
Really? And you know all this because... why? Why do you think that what you just said is a reflection of reality? Please don't tell me you read it in an ancient holy book. We have way to many of those floating about these days.
You also said, "He is almighty, but does not want to allow his children to run around like mindless robots, simple toys. NO. Instead my friend, he chooses to let his friends (that’s us again smarty pants) choose to be with him.
Again, how do you know that any of what you just parroted is grounded in reality? Nice myth, but reality? Please present some evidence that any of this is anything but religious indoctrination.
You continued, "God is almighty, but only uses his power on occasion, therefore his people may exercise freedom. Think, would you rather live under a monarchy who is brilliant and would rule fairly and justly so that all would prosper, or would you like your freedom, and therefore be allowed to live as YOU see fit?
Same thing: HOW DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THIS IS TRUE? Are you a religious drone? Or did you come up with this nonsense on your own? Who taught you this stuff?
"He is good, for he blesses his people when they do good."
And you know this because...?
"You see just is good, but not always in tune with a bubble-gum pop culture. God is just first, nice second. Punishments are well deserved my friend."
You seem really, really sure of all this. Again, why should anyone accept anything you just spouted? And since when is everlasting (eternal, never ending, horrific, retributive) punishment in any way just for temporal disbelief? Can you honestly say you believe that because you beat off, or stole a candy bar, or lusted after your classmate that you deserve eternal torture?
Is torture, even temporary torture, the right way to treat people?
"...Think, would you rather live under a monarchy who is brilliant and would rule fairly and justly so that all would prosper, or would you like your freedom,..."
But wait; isn't this the scenario (i.e. heaven) to which all Xtians aspire, democrats and monarchists alike?
Except, Buddy, Allah might be the one true god. Then what?
What slander is this?
You know Osiris is the one and only.
Damn.
fjell
FRED THE TURTLE is the ONLY true god.
May he have mercy on your immortal shells.
"FRED THE TURTLE is the ONLY true god"
---
Ohhh-Now stronger (oops, stronger now),
Fred the turtle can't be god, but you're close.
The turtle god is made up of the four teenage mutant ninja turtles.
It's like the xtian Trinity +1 spare, just in case the devil gets a 'win' over this 4-part godhead.
So feel free to pick one of the four proper names from this godhead, but I assure you that Fred isn't one of them.
ATF (who always knew that the true gods lived in the sewer realm of earth)
In another thred Jim Arvo responding to a fundie said:
"If my pet turtle, Fred, created the universe, then he has provided ample evidence that he is god.
Agree? If so, then we can get straight to the interesting part: What evidence exists that god/Zeus/Fred created the universe? For the sake of pushing this discussion along, I'll start by positing that there is as much evidence for Fred creating the universe as there is for Yahweh creating the universe; in fact, probably a bit more, as Fred clearly exists."
Then I chimed in with:
"It reminds me of a story about a turtle who "on his shell holds the earth". To quote stephen king.
So I suspect fred is more than he seems.
All bow to fred! "
And so was born another deity to rule mankinds lives with fierce jealousy and tranquil repose.
The turtles of which you speak are the prophets of Fred and their high priest is the one called Splinter.
"The turtles of which you speak are the prophets of Fred and their high priest is the one called Splinter"
---
Okay Stronger, I'll concede that god Fred wins this one.
So let's see, what you're saying then is that my 4 turtles are really more a ummm "Splinter Organization" of this Fred turtle God? [g]
Here's a Turtle earth-creation story that's just as believable as the story from Genesis.
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6375/
ATF (who didn't mind being in error about the turtle gods)
The term "splinter group" isn't used in the preferred apologetic rhetoric. Either your turtles are a demonic cult, or they are just one of the many streams of Turtlianity.
Got it?
Some of us spent years in spiritual torment agonizing over this very issue, so we'd appreciate if you would be so kind as to treat this with the spiritual equivalent of surgical gloves.
fjell
"ATF: The term "splinter group" isn't used in the preferred apologetic rhetoric. Either your turtles are a demonic cult, or they are just one of the many streams of Turtlianity"
--
Mister Webmaster,
Oh please, perish the thought that they might be demonic in nature.
God Fred would never allow such evil beings to roam the earth...Unlike that other xtian god does with compassionate ease.
I have FAITH that the Turtlianity 'stream' my turtles came from was a Holy righteous one.
Of course this 'stream' they were born from is getting a bit cramped now with their increasing size.
In fact I got a holy memo from them just the other day, saying they were moving onto larger pastures where they could find more suckers, errrr, open-hearted believers.
They were sure that by moving-up from their small stream to a much larger ancient river, that fewer disbelievers would find a reason to be in de-NILE of their sacred Turtlianity doctrine.
ATF
And just so you and the webmaster know, a "Shredder group" would be considered demonic.
Anyway, thanks for showing me that creation story. Perhaps I'll delve into other cultures creation myths a bit more now. Who knows, I might learn something.
[here's] the answer to life buddy. choose to believe in god [because] your dumb ass really doesnt [know] the answer [because] [no one] does.
So, let me get this straight---belief in "God" is the "answer to life", yet, you finish by saying "noone" knows the answer, including our "dumb asses".
Boy, you are a pillar of intelligence, aren't you? Hey, I would like to "no"---will you stick around and enlighten us further?
"Perhaps I'll delve into other cultures creation myths a bit more now. Who knows, I might learn something"
----
Stronger,
If you have a few hours of spare time on your hands, this site is quite extensive on the subject of "Creation and Flood Myths and Legends"
http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre04legends.html
I don't know how any thinking person could read thru all these many legends and still believe the xtian legend is the more logical one to believe.
Well, assuming a person has a need to believe in ONE of them that is.
Me, I'll stick with the big-bang idea as the most likely one so far.
ATF
>[here's] the answer to life buddy. choose to believe in god [because] your dumb ass really doesnt [know] the answer [because] [no one] does.<
"Boy, you are a pillar of intelligence, aren't you? Hey, I would like to "no"---will you stick around and enlighten us further? "
------
Boom,
What we have here is a wonderful sample of the fundies we are trying so hard to educate.
I take it that their all-knowing god forbids them to know anything about the very evil, devil-generated, SPELLING and GRAMMER talents that we heathens tend to learn about?
Doesn't it make you wonder sometimes, who exactly they find to boot-up their computers and get them onto our website?
Perhaps the only letters this fundie knows how to put into google is GAWD and google then ask if he meant "GOD" instead..... and that is how he does all his google searching.
Hey anon fundie........
We know your god does all your thinking FOR YOU, but does he also spoon feed you all your meals as well?
No wonder your faith is so strong and your IQ so weak.
Perhaps you can still convince us heathens by performing a few magic tricks for us instead.
How about the water-into-wine one....always a favorite of mine.
ATF
I know one thing, people who are sure they know something, don’t. The people you can trust are the people who are never quite sure, because they know they can be wrong, and are always questioning. People who know there is a God cannot be trusted, and neither can people who know there is no god. Because I know neither of them know what they are talking about.
1) You cannot prove the existence of God, and you certainly cannot disprove the existence of God. Anyone can poke holes in your logic just like you can use logic to poke holes in faith. All one needs do is have a bigger imagination than you and they can outwit your paradoxes. Por ejemplo...
Under the convenient connotative definitions you have chosen for “God”; “Omnipotence” “Almighty” etc., you have given yourself nice setups for your selected arguments. First of all, almighty and omnipotent, these do not include the power to do the impossible. Simply for the fact that the definition of the word impossible means it cannot be done, not even by something that is all-powerful. Meaning, if God can do it. It is not really impossible. Is it?
Therefore you are correct in that God cannot do the impossible. Simply because if God could do it, it can no longer be defined as impossible. The very statement “the ability to do the impossible.” Is self defeating. You’re just mincing words and creating a simple hypothetical logic puzzle that is unsolvable. If anything, you may have figured out something about God. You figured out that, if there is a God, he couldn’t do the impossible. Which is a redundancy.
Hurray for you, you’re one step closer to taking all this knowledge you gained and using wisely.
Many people believe logic and reason are the way to truth. But you can follow logic and reason right into madness if you really really want to.
As it best said on another Atheism website:
It's worth mentioning a couple of things which logic is not.
First, logical reasoning is not an absolute law which governs the universe. Many times in the past, people have concluded that because something is logically impossible (given the science of the day), it must be impossible, period. It was also believed at one time that Euclidean geometry was a universal law; it is, after all, logically consistent. Again, we now know that the rules of Euclidean geometry are not universal.
Second, logic is not a set of rules which govern human behavior. Humans may have logically conflicting goals. For example:
* John wishes to speak to whomever is in charge.
* The person in charge is Steve.
* Therefore John wishes to speak to Steve.
Unfortunately, John may have a conflicting goal of avoiding Steve, meaning that the reasoned answer may be inapplicable to real life.
This document only explains how to use logic; you must decide whether logic is the right tool for the job. There are other ways to communicate, discuss and debate.
From: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/l...) Worship and Ontological evidence against gods
Not sure why a God needs to be worth worshipping. I think our free will pretty much states that we decide whether if we believe in God, and if we think he lives up to our own standards of worship. However misguided our standards are. Don’t know how worship is a factor in proving a god or a creator’s existence. If we all hated God, it would not mean anything about whether or not he exists and is the creator of all things. Even if none of us knew of him, how would that mean he exists or not. I think someone else responded with: “just because you don’t know it exists, doesn’t mean it doesn’t.” Sorry, worship is not a factor. I think it’s pretty obvious from the many different religions that God and Religion are separate.
Also. Assuming that we are supposed to have free will and the will to choose. And that god wants us to grow to be spiritually “good”. There is a very good reason that a God could never reveal his existence to us. If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have? He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate. We would then focus our lives around “What do I have to do to get in to Heaven.” When I would think he would want us to be good for the sake of being good. Not to kiss his ass or get into heaven. Being good to get into heaven is actually being bad in my book.
3) Rebuttal to definition of existence: Easy.
God can easily be infinite. We are god. Everything is a part of God. And God is so much more than we can see. You thoughts are a part of god. This universe is a part of god. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. That’s all we can see of god…hypothetically of course. You are nothing more than a part of God, God therefore being something far bigger than I think you can imagine, far more intricate, far more complex. Not outside the realm of science, and not outside religious doctrines.
4) Occam’s Razor:
This was the best argument you had. And it did nothing to prove god did not exist. It only proves that God is as likely an explanation as no god. So yes, remove god from the scientific equation to study the world. You are obviously not going to prove his existence if, say, he does not want it proved.
Basically you’re saying if you don’t have evidence of something, why bother with thinking it exists. There are so many obvious problems with that thinking. Especially in the realm of science.
Experiments and the best science start with theories, and sometimes little or no evidence. The purpose of the study is to FIND evidence. If pure genius scientists like Einstien truly followed Occam’s razor, we would still be in the dark ages.
To conclude. If you had started with an argument to say “Christians can not know God exists!”, or “The reasons it is unlikey that there is a God.” Or even “Athiesm: Why I think God does not exist.” I would have been with you. But seeing as how you went very very out of your way to post a well researched and time consuming blog about how you have proof that God does not exist, I felt I needed to stand up to your hypocrisy. Which I only pray you can see.
I know one thing, people who are sure they know something, don’t. The people you can trust are the people who are never quite sure, because they know they can be wrong, and are always questioning. People who know there is a God cannot be trusted, and neither can people who know there is no god. Because I know neither of them know what they are talking about.
1) You cannot prove the existence of God, and you certainly cannot disprove the existence of God. Anyone can poke holes in your logic just like you can use logic to poke holes in faith. All one needs do is have a bigger imagination than you and they can outwit your paradoxes. Por ejemplo...
Under the convenient connotative definitions you have chosen for “God”; “Omnipotence” “Almighty” etc., you have given yourself nice setups for your selected arguments. First of all, almighty and omnipotent, these do not include the power to do the impossible. Simply for the fact that the definition of the word impossible means it cannot be done, not even by something that is all-powerful. Meaning, if God can do it. It is not really impossible. Is it?
Therefore you are correct in that God cannot do the impossible. Simply because if God could do it, it can no longer be defined as impossible. The very statement “the ability to do the impossible.” Is self defeating. You’re just mincing words and creating a simple hypothetical logic puzzle that is unsolvable. If anything, you may have figured out something about God. You figured out that, if there is a God, he couldn’t do the impossible. Which is a redundancy.
Hurray for you, you’re one step closer to taking all this knowledge you gained and using wisely.
Many people believe logic and reason are the way to truth. But you can follow logic and reason right into madness if you really really want to.
As it best said on another Atheism website:
It's worth mentioning a couple of things which logic is not.
First, logical reasoning is not an absolute law which governs the universe. Many times in the past, people have concluded that because something is logically impossible (given the science of the day), it must be impossible, period. It was also believed at one time that Euclidean geometry was a universal law; it is, after all, logically consistent. Again, we now know that the rules of Euclidean geometry are not universal.
Second, logic is not a set of rules which govern human behavior. Humans may have logically conflicting goals. For example:
* John wishes to speak to whomever is in charge.
* The person in charge is Steve.
* Therefore John wishes to speak to Steve.
Unfortunately, John may have a conflicting goal of avoiding Steve, meaning that the reasoned answer may be inapplicable to real life.
This document only explains how to use logic; you must decide whether logic is the right tool for the job. There are other ways to communicate, discuss and debate.
From: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/l...) Worship and Ontological evidence against gods
Not sure why a God needs to be worth worshipping. I think our free will pretty much states that we decide whether if we believe in God, and if we think he lives up to our own standards of worship. However misguided our standards are. Don’t know how worship is a factor in proving a god or a creator’s existence. If we all hated God, it would not mean anything about whether or not he exists and is the creator of all things. Even if none of us knew of him, how would that mean he exists or not. I think someone else responded with: “just because you don’t know it exists, doesn’t mean it doesn’t.” Sorry, worship is not a factor. I think it’s pretty obvious from the many different religions that God and Religion are separate.
Also. Assuming that we are supposed to have free will and the will to choose. And that god wants us to grow to be spiritually “good”. There is a very good reason that a God could never reveal his existence to us. If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have? He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate. We would then focus our lives around “What do I have to do to get in to Heaven.” When I would think he would want us to be good for the sake of being good. Not to kiss his ass or get into heaven. Being good to get into heaven is actually being bad in my book.
3) Rebuttal to definition of existence: Easy.
God can easily be infinite. We are god. Everything is a part of God. And God is so much more than we can see. You thoughts are a part of god. This universe is a part of god. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. That’s all we can see of god…hypothetically of course. You are nothing more than a part of God, God therefore being something far bigger than I think you can imagine, far more intricate, far more complex. Not outside the realm of science, and not outside religious doctrines.
4) Occam’s Razor:
This was the best argument you had. And it did nothing to prove god did not exist. It only proves that God is as likely an explanation as no god. So yes, remove god from the scientific equation to study the world. You are obviously not going to prove his existence if, say, he does not want it proved.
Basically you’re saying if you don’t have evidence of something, why bother with thinking it exists. There are so many obvious problems with that thinking. Especially in the realm of science.
Experiments and the best science start with theories, and sometimes little or no evidence. The purpose of the study is to FIND evidence. If pure genius scientists like Einstien truly followed Occam’s razor, we would still be in the dark ages.
To conclude. If you had started with an argument to say “Christians can not know God exists!”, or “The reasons it is unlikey that there is a God.” Or even “Athiesm: Why I think God does not exist.” I would have been with you. But seeing as how you went very very out of your way to post a well researched and time consuming blog about how you have proof that God does not exist, I felt I needed to stand up to your hypocrisy. Which I only pray you can see.
"you must decide whether logic is the right tool for the job."
Can you suggest any other tools for knowing, as far as anyone can know, what is, or is not, objective reality?
"If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have?"
We would have the free will to decide whether or not a god is worthy of our worship. As you pointed out before, worship and existence are seperate issues.
"When I would think he would want us to be good for the sake of being good."
If a gods existence is proven, then we would still have the free will to decide what is and is not good, and the ability to determine for ourselves if this god wants us to be good, and the ability to decide if this god fits our individual standards for what is good.
You're assuming that if a deity exists it must be good, or at least desires us to be good, and that a heaven exists. Why?
"He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate."
As I have just explained, this statement is untrue.
"We are god."
You must be joking.
"Occam’s Razor:
This was the best argument you had. And it did nothing to prove god did not exist."
Occam's razor isn't meant to "prove" wheher or not a god exists, but to show that not all claims are equally plausible.
"It only proves that God is as likely an explanation as no god."
If that were the case then one could use any explanation for anything.
For example:
Q: Why did the apple fall from the tree?
A: Because the invisible pixies wanted to feed off of it near the ground.
A2: Gravity.
Occam's razor doesn't "prove" that pixies don't exist, but when used, effectivly eliminates the pixie explanation as the most plausible answer.
Just a start. I may be wrong.
What's this? One minute you're saying "I would have been with you" if the article was worded to your liking---as in, "Atheism: Why I think God does not exist".
Yet, you finish with this...
I only pray you can see.
You pray that we can see whAT?...that God does not exist? That requires no prayer, begging, nor pleading. Biblegod is just as implausible as square circles.
I am not trying to say that God exists. I am not even really talking about God at all. I am as clueless as you or anybody else about the existance of God.
My POINT is at least I have the balls to admit "I don't know". And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic.
I know what I believe. And I know what the poster of this article believes, and that's all well and good. But at least I have the self awareness to know the difference between beliefs and knowledge.
Beliefs are something we all have. Knowledge is the word morons use to describe their beliefs.
What the author fails to see is that he is twisting his BELIEFS and calling it "KNOWLEDGE". He is doing the exact same thing as all all the leaders of every religous war in history.
KNOWING there is NO God is as INSANE as KNOWING there IS a God.
I don't object to his beliefs.
In answer to the question, what I'm I praying for...I'm praying that the author can see the irony and hypocrisy. I think I said that pretty clearly.
Also, in response to..."We are God." "You must be joking."
You just completely missed my point if you thought I was trying to convince you of that. It is an old spiritual belief. I believe it's Khabbalistic. And in my head it actually makes sense. But then again, I have a very good imagination.
At this point it's getting exhausting that all the responses to my post completely missed my point anyway, so...I think I'll just stop.
Free will doesn't mean we choose what is good and what is evil.
That is a misunderstanding of the idea of free will.
The universe is what it is, and free will does not change the laws that govern the universe.
If there truly is such a thing as good and evil in the universe. It is as much a universal truth as gravity or any other universal law. Otherwise it is simply a construct within the human mind and therefore does not exist.
But since I think we are both speaking in the hypothetical sense as if God, Good and Evil exist, I will continue.
You can choose to be one or the other in essence, but you cannot choose to change the dynamics of the law. You cannot define through free will what is and isn't good.
For example, you have the free will to kill an innocent person and take their money if you choose. You cannot through free will change weather or not its good. It is simply is or isn't, and there is nothing you can do. You will have to hide it, or you will go to jail. You cannot change that through free will. It's what is.
Free will only gives you the choice to act and believe within the laws of the world you are put in, those laws will react accordingly to your actions. Believe what you believe, but if there is such a thing as truth, that means that your beliefs are going to be either wrong or right. Measured by how close to this truth they match up.
If there is no truth...then who cares. Beliefs are all anyone's got either way.
At least i have the balls to admit "I may be wrong."
"And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic."
Excuse me? That didn't answer my question. I asked:
"Can you suggest any other tools for knowing, as far as anyone can know, what is, or is not, objective reality?"
I'm not "trapped" by logic. I use it as a "tool" for finding what is true and objectively real and what isn't. If there is a better "tool" then by all means let's hear it. Untill then your advocating an absurdity. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
"Free will doesn't mean we choose what is good and what is evil."
Umm? Yeah it does.
"That is a misunderstanding of the idea of free will."
If you wish to define free will as not haveing an ability to choose for yourself what is right and what is wrong, and also the ability to act on what you choose, then it's not really free will.
Allow me to explain. In the hypothetical situation that a god exists, if we humans have free will then we have the free will to decide if the god is a good god or an evil god based on our own understanding of the concepts of what is, or is not, good. If this deity were to, say, command genocide and torture people for eternity, we could decide for ourselves, using our free will, that this god is not a good god.
"The universe is what it is, and free will does not change the laws that govern the universe."
True. But how did you get that there is a universal law governing morality?
Oh yeah.
"If there truly is such a thing as good and evil in the universe. It is as much a universal truth as gravity or any other universal law."
Wrong. What you decide is good may be different than what someone else decides is good. You may wish that a deity must be good, but it may not necessarily be so. How would you decide if the god that hypothetically exists is worthy of worship? One person may like the fact that a deity tortures people, another may not. If both are talking about the same god, then there isn't a moral absolute. Gravity, on the other hand, works the same way for all. If I were to go into outer space I'd find that I too would "float". If I returned to the earths surface I wouldn't "float" anymore. Any reasoning person can admit to a similar result, because the law of gravity isn't subject to interpretation. Moral actions are.
"Otherwise it[good and evil] is simply a construct within the human mind and therefore does not exist."
You imply that because it's a human concept, it's worthless. Funny, but I think that "god" is a human concept that exists only in the minds of humans and not in objective reality. One of the reasons I think this, is because each human seems to have a different god concept. Just like their idea of right and wrong, each uses their own free will to decide what god concept to believe in and then some may change it to meet their own ideas of what a god should be. Even those without a god concept still use their own free will to decide what is right and what is wrong in any given situation.
You say you have a good imagination. Then tell me one moral absolute that everyone can all agree on about a situation, involving, say, shooting someone in the head. If you automatically say it's wrong to shoot someone in the head, then you're not using your imagination. I can quickly come up with several different scenarios in which I would think it would be the right thing to do.
"For example, you have the free will to kill an innocent person and take their money if you choose. You cannot through free will change weather or not its good. It is simply is or isn't, and there is nothing you can do."
What if this God told you to? Is the action then become good simply because a god condoned it? Would it be "evil" not to do it if this god told you to? Does a god automatically get off the hook? Just because you and I agree that an action is immoral doesn't mean that we cannot use our free will to decide if a god is or isn't good. That's the point I'm trying to make. Again you have failed to show why you believe that a god MUST be good.
"...but if there is such a thing as truth, that means that your beliefs are going to be either wrong or right. Measured by how close to this truth they match up."
So what is the best method for discovering the truth if not logic and reason? Still you haven't answered this question.
What if this innocent person was in such pain from cancer, a cancer that would eventually take her life, that she begged you to take her life by an overdose of pain medication, and even wanted to pay you to do it.
Would it be good to let her suffer longer?
I assume you are talking to me, and if so, I ask you---why are you then "praying" for people? It seems to me that that at least implicitly suggests you're saying a "god" exists.
Chimera'...I am not even really talking about God at all. I am as clueless as you or anybody else about the existance of God.
Fair enough, but before we get off the subject of "God", I'd be interested to know how "clueless" you are when it comes to the existence of the following deities, all of which at one time were claimed to be responsible for "Creation":
- Marduk
- Ptah
- Brahma
- Kamui
?
Do you know they don't exist? Or are you "clueless" as to their existence..i.e.."don't know"? Which one best represents your position? Be honest.
Chimera'...My POINT is at least I have the balls to admit "I don't know".
Again I ask, how big do one's testicles need to be to deny the existence of the above-referenced "Gods"? This is what I'm trying to figure out from those who seemingly push the agnostic position.
Chimera'...And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic.
Feel free to explain how using logic limits or "traps" an individual's thought-process.
Chimera'...Knowledge is the word morons use to describe their beliefs.
Let me illustrate a point by analogy: Do you "know" square circles don't exist? Whether you do know, or do not know...do you "believe" square circles don't exist? The point I'm making is that if one presumably "knows" something to be true, it's fair to say they "believe" it to be true. On the other hand, if someone "believes" something, it doesn't necessarily mean they "know" its truth.
In think the author is more or less trying to say that the attributes that are commonly assigned to "God" by human beings, in the long run, are mutually incompatable; they create philosophical contradictions. Using logic, we can say with certainty that such proposed beings are conceptually impossible, and thus, their reality is impossible.
Now, if you want to go outside the laws of logic, then sure..of course, anything is "possible"! The Universe is your imagination's playground. Lots of luck with that.
KNOWING there is NO God is as INSANE as KNOWING there IS a God
One can't actually 'know' that there is no god, however, one can sure know that we have zero credible evidence to support the existence of a god who intervenes in human affairs.
Lacking such evidence, it's not really sticking one's neck out very far to assume one need not worry about such a god, being in judgement of their lives.
How much do you stick out your neck to dismiss that the god Neptune affects our daily lives?
Do you know with total certainty that the god Neptune doesn't exists?
Well, I think it's a safe bet that the bible god resides in the same world of chance, as the god Neptune does.
Until some xtian can show me evidence that their bible god not only exists, but has the ability and willingness to affect the course of my life, then I'll have to take the default position of a no-god scenario in my life.
ATF (Who still thinks Neptune makes a far cooler god than the bible god ever did)
I just need to say. People keep trying to discuss the nature of God with me. I am not here to discuss the nature of God.
I am here discuss his existance. If he exists, the nature of his existance is another topic entirley. I don't need to discuss weather he is evil, weather his is Neptune. Just because some people who are less or more intelligent than you wrote a book about God and it doesn't add up, you say that's a good indication that God doesn't exist.
If there is a creator that never showed himself, I think there would be a lot of religions and people trying really hard to interpret and understand him. A lot of people who didn't believe in him. And they'd all believe in one thing or another and fight about it endlessly, and no one would know what they were talking about. They'd all just puff up and act like they did.
Then they'd die. And find out what my definition of truth is.
There are plenty of things that are true. Boiling water is hot. Freezing water is cold. Apples fall to the ground.
What is being discussed here is not is whether or not there are supernatural invisible, immaterial, super-dimensional beings entities flying around somewhere who demand that humans worship them. That is the real discussion.
So, if you claim that there are such living beings that exist beyond human comprehension, what is your evidence for the existence of those beings?
Oh, and by they way, I also doubt the existence of Big Foot, leprechauns and visitors to Earth from Alpha Centauri.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
"...at least I have the balls to admit 'I don't know'."
At least I have the balls to admit "I may be wrong."
REPLY:
Stronger now… I wasn’t referring to you. I was referring to the author. It is the author I have a problem with. Not you. The author does NOT seem to have said balls.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
"And I'm not vein enough to be trapped inside my own logic."
Excuse me? That didn't answer my question. I asked:
"Can you suggest any other tools for knowing, as far as anyone can know, what is, or is not, objective reality?"
I'm not "trapped" by logic. I use it as a "tool" for finding what is true and objectively real and what isn't. If there is a better "tool" then by all means let's hear it. Untill then your advocating an absurdity. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
REPLY:
Again I wasn’t referring to you. I was referring to the author. You did not seem so blindly sure of yourself. But since you seem insistent that I answer your question, I will try.
Logic can not help you to know anything other than the best answers to logical questions. Such as square circle cannot exist simply because of the defintion of a square and a circle. God is not a logic problem as much as the author would argue he/she is. Logically you can only deduce the probability that there is no god. You cannot deduct its certainty.
What other tools are there? Lots: There are other lesser and better tools that can be used as well, such as intuition, free association, experimentation, investigation, observation. Logic is absolutely not any one of these. It is used in conjunction with them, but logic cannot on its own render the findings that any of these other tools can. They must all be used together. Logic has its limitations like any other tool.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
"Free will doesn't mean we choose what is good and what is evil."
Umm? Yeah it does.
REPLY:
I have to disagree. But I think you misunderstand. You can choose what YOU believe is good and evil. But if there is such a thing as truth, then you be right or wrong in what you believe. I
If there is NOT such a thing as truth, like a said, good and evil does not exist, and good boils down then to a human moral construct and better fits the way I think you see good and evil.
I am talking about the possibility of absolute truth. You define good as a question of morality. Morality is simply the way one interprets what is good or evil. If there is absolute truth, there is “actual good”. You have the free will to believe differently, but if there is truth, that just means you have the freedom to “choose poorly or wisely.” Your intuition will tell you quicker than logic weather you believe something is good or bad, is this based on your moral beliefs, or a sense o the truth. I can’t say.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
"That is a misunderstanding of the idea of free will."
If you wish to define free will as not haveing an ability to choose for yourself what is right and what is wrong, and also the ability to act on what you choose, then it's not really free will.
REPLY:
I disagree. I do not agree that free will is ultimate freedom to do and be and believe what you want without consequence . There are consequences to every action. This is true weather or not there is a god.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
Allow me to explain. In the hypothetical situation that a god exists, if we humans have free will then we have the free will to decide if the god is a good god or an evil god based on our own understanding of the concepts of what is, or is not, good. If this deity were to, say, command genocide and torture people for eternity, we could decide for ourselves, using our free will, that this god is not a good god.
REPLY:
Then yes we could decide to believe that God was bad. That is within our free will. If we decide that God is sadistic and orchestrating everything on earth and most of the Earth is pain, then we might logically deduce god is bad. It’s an old argument and the most common among atheists. Athiests I think believe if there is god, he must have a hand in human affairs. Therefore either god does not exist, or god is evil. Fine, if that’s what you believe.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
"The universe is what it is, and free will does not change the laws that govern the universe."
True. But how did you get that there is a universal law governing morality?
REPLY:
I think I tried to state this. If there is absolute truth, and if there is a god, then morality is simply they way we interpret it.
I guess the point your really trying to make is that god could be evil and if an evil being created absolute truth, then absolute truth would be corrupt in your eyes.
Well, I just think that is kind of a hard argument to sell. It is far more likely that there is no God than there is an evil God. It is much harder for me to imagine a supreme intelligence that decided to be evil. Simply because I believe evil to be a result of a lack of true wisdom. Evil as far as I can tell derives from false, twisted thinking. But that is simply my belief, so therefore it is hard for someone like me to imagine something with near perfect intelligence having false or twisted thinking. I find it much more plausible that there is either a ‘good’ god, or no god at all.
I don’t understand how your argument addressess mine really. Mine is that the author cannot know what he says he knows.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
"If there truly is such a thing as good and evil in the universe. It is as much a universal truth as gravity or any other universal law."
Wrong. What you decide is good may be different than what someone else decides is good. You may wish that a deity must be good, but it may not necessarily be so. How would you decide if the god that hypothetically exists is worthy of worship? One person may like the fact that a deity tortures people, another may not. If both are talking about the same god, then there isn't a moral absolute. Gravity, on the other hand, works the same way for all. If I were to go into outer space I'd find that I too would "float". If I returned to the earths surface I wouldn't "float" anymore. Any reasoning person can admit to a similar result, because the law of gravity isn't subject to interpretation. Moral actions are.
REPLY:
I already made my point on this one. I just disagree with you completely. If we truly choose what is good and what is evil, then there is no such thing as good and evil.
I am not talking about morals. Morals exist either way.
I am talking about the existence of truth and an ‘actual good’. Apart and separate form what we believe is good or what is morally good, which we can obviously choose. If this exists, we cannot change it. If we can change it, then it does not exist, and is nothing more than a concept.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
"Otherwise it[good and evil] is simply a construct within the human mind and therefore does not exist."
You imply that because it's a human concept, it's worthless. Funny, but I think that "god" is a human concept that exists only in the minds of humans and not in objective reality. One of the reasons I think this, is because each human seems to have a different god concept. Just like their idea of right and wrong, each uses their own free will to decide what god concept to believe in and then some may change it to meet their own ideas of what a god should be. Even those without a god concept still use their own free will to decide what is right and what is wrong in any given situation.
REPLY:
Again, I’ve already addressed this. But I did not say the human concept is worthless. I just said that good and evil therefore do not exist. Meaning they are then of course like you say, not laws in the universe. All totally possible. Again, off track. My point is that you cannot know for certain. You seem to be supporting me in this.
I would like to ask however…if there is no such thing as truth, what the hell are we all fighting about? That my belief is better than your belief. Who cares, aren’t we all trying to find out the truth?
My stance is that if there is a God. Then there is a universal right or wrong and for better reasons than you or I could figure. You don’t have to believe this, there are other options, but this is the best for me. This is of coarse a tangent again. My point still being that no one knows. I loathe it when people claim that they do. That’s what this author did.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
You say you have a good imagination. Then tell me one moral absolute that everyone can all agree on about a situation, involving, say, shooting someone in the head. If you automatically say it's wrong to shoot someone in the head, then you're not using your imagination. I can quickly come up with several different scenarios in which I would think it would be the right thing to do.
"For example, you have the free will to kill an innocent person and take their money if you choose. You cannot through free will change weather or not its good. It is simply is or isn't, and there is nothing you can do."
What if this God told you to? Is the action then become good simply because a god condoned it? Would it be "evil" not to do it if this god told you to? Does a god automatically get off the hook? Just because you and I agree that an action is immoral doesn't mean that we cannot use our free will to decide if a god is or isn't good. That's the point I'm trying to make. Again you have failed to show why you believe that a god MUST be good.
REPLY
What is your point here? You have simply illustrated mine. That you can’t be sure. I don’t know the answer to these questions. They are all good ones. And everyone will answer differently. Again, my argument is that the author can not know God does not exist.
In answer to your question about why god must be good. As I said earlier, that is just my belief, for reasons that I stated. An evil god is far more unlikely to me that no god at all.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
"...but if there is such a thing as truth, that means that your beliefs are going to be either wrong or right. Measured by how close to this truth they match up."
So what is the best method for discovering the truth if not logic and reason? Still you haven't answered this question.
REPLY:
I have now answered it as best I think I can. Sorry, I had not been responding to this question in my earlier post.
I never said God existed. If you had read my posts you would know that. I am not trying to prove the existance of God. How many times do I have to say this?
I just need to say. People keep trying to discuss the nature of God with me. I am not here to discuss the nature of God.
I am here discuss his existance. If he exists, the nature of his existance is another topic entirley. I don't need to discuss weather he is evil, weather his is Neptune. Just because some people who are less or more intelligent than you wrote a book about God and it doesn't add up, you say that's a good indication that God doesn't exist.
If there is a creator that never showed himself, I think there would be a lot of religions and people trying really hard to interpret and understand him. A lot of people who didn't believe in him. And they'd all believe in one thing or another and fight about it endlessly, and no one would know what they were talking about. They'd all just puff up and act like they did.
Then they'd die. And find out what my definition of truth is.
Unless you mark up your text correctly. CLICK HERE
Did you happen to notice the little garbage can at the end of your posts on the comment post page? Clicking the garbage can will delete your comment.
Chimera' ....I am here [to]discuss his[God's existence].
Okay, me too. The questions I previously asked, I feel, are quite pertinent to this topic, that is, where "knowledge" of "God" is concerned, and where definitions of "God" are concerned. Here, again, is my comment, in relation to your previous remarks:
Chimera'..."I am not even really talking about God at all. I am as clueless as you or anybody else about the existance of God."
Me: "Fair enough, but before we get off the subject of 'God', I'd be interested to know how 'clueless' you are when it comes to the existence of the following deities, all of which at one time were claimed to be responsible for 'Creation':
- Marduk
- Ptah
- Brahma
- Kamui
Do you know they don't exist? Or are you "clueless" as to their existence..i.e..'don't know'? Which one best represents your position?"[Italics added]
Also, you said you're not really here to talk about "God", yet, your latest remarks state that you want to talk about the "existence" of "God". Is there a distiction you'd like to make?
As for an "Absolute Morality", there is none. That doesn't mean there is no "Truth".
Boom', don't the following statements from Chimera, remind you of a certain Buddhist we once entertained here?
---------------
I am talking about the possibility of absolute truth
I'm not "trapped" by logic
If there is absolute truth, there is “actual good”. You have the free will to believe differently, but if there is truth, that just means you have the freedom to “choose poorly or wisely.”
If there is absolute truth, and if there is a god, then morality is simply they way we interpret it.
I do not agree that free will is ultimate freedom to do and be and believe what you want without consequence . There are consequences to every action
I am talking about the existence of truth and an ‘actual good’
Apart and separate form what we believe is good or what is morally good, which we can obviously choose. If this exists, we cannot change it. If we can change it, then it does not exist, and is nothing more than a concept.
My stance is that if there is a God. Then there is a universal right or wrong and for better reasons than you or I could figure. You don’t have to believe this, there are other options, but this is the best for me
Then they'd die. And find out what my definition of truth is
----------------------
Chimera,
If, as you say, it can't be determined whether a god of some kind truly exists, then what makes you so sure that upon dying that this "truth" you speak about, will be discovered by each person?
Obviously, if no god exists and if there is no afterlife, one who dies will never find out this universal truth you speak of.
Of course, your last statement I quoted here, implies that we would discover this universal truth upon dying, which means you must have some reason to believe that we live-on after death, yes?
Care to provide us with some reasons why you think this afterlife scenario is a universal 'truth'?
Best as I can tell, there is no more evidence for an afterlife, than there is for a bible god.
ATF (Who thinks someone is trying to see if we ex-xtians would swallow a religion that is based on Buddhist philosophies)
My definition of truth is meant to encompass the possibility that there is simply nothing after you die.
The simple truth could be that there is no afterlife.
My point being, only the dead know. The author of this blog does not.
I guess you could say if there is no after life, then when you die, you don't know, but then your missing my point and we are just mincing words again.
Anyway, stand by my point. The author of this blog does not know that there is no god.
I did not answer your comments before because I do not understand you line of questioning. I will answer I guess.
I have only heard of two of the four dieties you describe. Marduk and Bramha.
If you really want to get into my beliefs we can. But I am trying not to bore people TOO much with what I believe. I also feel like you want to know them just so you can attack them. And ignore the point about the author I am trying to make. But I guess no one seems to be listening or agreeing with me anyway. So...
Experiences in my life have pushed my thinking toward this...I think most religions try hard to interpret something that people feel exists, but have a hard time grasping. Weather these dieties exist or not I cannot say. But what I can say is that they probably do not exist in the way the religion that portrays them says they exist. If there is a super-natural world, I think most of it is misinterpreted.
Perhaps they are all attempts to describe the same thing, perhaps one is describiing parts of a whole another understands better.
Do you have something further to add? I don't understand. As to weather I am clueless or I do not know. I guess "I do not know" better describes how I feel. Why?
Do you yourself think you can KNOW there is no god. Or do describe Athiesm that which you choose to believe. Which better describes how YOU feel?
I am all for being an Athiest if that is what you choose to believe. But athiesm is a belief system. I have a real problem with Athiests or anyone who thinks of themselves as enlightened.
I would think this is an argurment most Athiests would actually side with me on.
I'll capitalize on just a few statements for now:
You: Anyway, stand by my point. The author of this blog does not know that there is no god.[bold added]
Let's review: We know that objects and/or beings that have attributes assigned to them that contradict, or by their very concept, have attributes that contradict, cannot exist. A few examples of some of these beings and objects are "married bachelors" and "square circles", respectively.
Do you follow so far?
The author is primarily focusing on definitions of "God" where human beings come along and assign attributes..i.e..personality traits, personal capabilities, etc., that CONTRADICT. He covers this extensively. In other words, if "God" is claimed to be both circular and square, we know no such "God" can exist. 'Get it?
Now, as for an invisible, conscious, supreme being that is not self-refuting, you are right, no one can say such a being is disproven with certainty. However, we certainly can say that such a being, or "God", does remain UNproven. Do you see the difference between the two?...disproven, and unproven?
In other words, you can stand by your point all you want---in the end, said "point" amounts to non-sequitur.
You: Do you yourself think you can KNOW there is no god.
Again, the question is meaningless----you would first have to define which "god" you are refering to.
You: Or do describe [Atheism] that which you choose to believe. Which better describes how YOU feel?
The latter best describes my thoughts, however, "Atheism" is not a "belief"; it is lack of belief. Projecting what you think "Atheism" means will not work in this case. Insisting that the lack of belief is "a belief" is redundant, unnecessary, and is fallacious reasoning.
"What other tools are there? Lots: There are other lesser and better tools that can be used as well, such as intuition, free association, experimentation, investigation, observation."
Of these I'd say that they don't need logic in order to render answers. You'd have answers that may make no sense, but you'd still have answers. So is there a better one than logic? I suppose that depends on if you require answers that needn't make sense. I agree with you that they need to be used in conjunction with logic, but I disagree that any of them are better alone than logic is. Since I think I understand you on this, I'll move on.
"If there is absolute truth, there is 'actual good'."
Why? Why must there be actual good if there is truth? As far as I understand it, facts are facts, and they depend on humans to determine their "goodness". If humans no longer existed, what remains is neither good nor evil, it's just what is.
"I do not agree that free will is ultimate freedom to do and be and believe what you want without consequence."
You misrepresent what I said. I believe free will describes the ability to act, whether or not a cosequence to the action exists. I have the free will to drive my car off a cliff. This doesn't mean I won't get hurt. It just means I have the ability.
Let me remind you that this part got started when you said that a god couldn't reveal his existence without destroying our free will. I disagree because I was thinking about the free will we would have in regards to whether or not we would have to worship him. Not about our free will whether or not we could believe in his existence. I think humans have an amazing ability(read free will) to believe what they want to, IN SPITE OF any evidence. Therefore I don't see a god revealing his existence as hindering free will.
"I guess the point your really trying to make is that god could be evil and if an evil being created absolute truth, then absolute truth would be corrupt in your eyes."
No. This isn't my point. My point was that if a god exists it didn't create all things. Absolute truth is one of those things that must exist independently from a god.
Unless, of course, you think that god somehow created himself or existed before an absolute truth existed. And if absolute truth and absolute good didn't exist untill god created them, that would mean that a god existed without the ability to determine good and bad. Or you could go with the "god is everything" concept which would make god both good and evil, right and wrong. So which is it?
(Hint: Just use occam's razor here and you too won't have to worry over such things)
If he/she said such a thing, then I must've missed it. Nonetheless, the notion is nonsensical, not that that is entirely shocking at this point. If "God" - pick a god; any god will do - "revealed" himself/herself/itself, we still have the "free will" to reject him/her/it. Moreover, I find it really insteresting that "God" is continually defined by what he/she/it will not do. 'Very revealing.
As for the christian biblegod, shit, he was allegedly making appearances all over the place just a few thousand years ago. Specifically, to "the Twelve", and to the over five hundred on-lookers. Note, this did not harm their "free will" or their "faith" one iota. Chimera's premise fails.
Shalom!
Stronger Now Said:
The latter best describes my thoughts, however, "Atheism" is not a "belief"; it is lack of belief. Projecting what you think "Atheism" means will not work in this case. Insisting that the lack of belief is "a belief" is redundant, unnecessary, and is fallacious reasoning.
REPLY:
RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S COLLEGE DICTIONARY:
Atheism: The doctrine or BELIEF that there is no God.
Believe: (DEFS 3-5) 3) To have confidence or faith in the truth of. 4) To have confidence in the assertions of 5) to hold as an opnion; suppose; think.
You are simply wrong Stronger Now. I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this. But not only does the dictionary back me up that Atheism is in fact a beliefe system, Athiesm is a belief system because it is based on things you don't really know. Please don't get so heavy handed with remarks like "fallacious thinking" when you haven't done your research.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
Of these I'd say that they don't need logic in order to render answers. You'd have answers that may make no sense, but you'd still have answers. So is there a better one than logic? I suppose that depends on if you require answers that needn't make sense.
REPLY:
Exactley my point. But you seem to think logic is somehow different thatn the rest of these tools. As if it can stand alone. Logic cannot produce results alone, it can only produce deductions. Logic can also produce faulty results and seemingly good conclusions that actually dont apply to the real world. The real danger of logic is that when it is 100% wrong, it still seems to make sense.
Por Ejemplo: Logic will tell us: If I go faster I will get there quicker. Wrong. Thus far science tells us that if you go too fast, you will warp the flow of time enough to actually slow you down. While this of coarse needs to be tested and logic may still prevail in this case, you can at least get my point.
Since light-speed travel and balck holes and god all bend the rules of what we know about science and the universe, it is easy to assume that logical reasoning will lead us easily into false conclusions in reagards to things we dont' understand. Simply because we are making assumptions in our own reasoning that we feel are safe assumptions. The same kind of reasoning that is seemingly self evident here, MAY be incorrect when applied to the real world.
This same seemingly self-evident reasoning is what I am refuting about yours and the authors claims. Logic can get us into trouble.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
You misrepresent what I said. I believe free will describes the ability to act, whether or not a cosequence to the action exists.
REPLY:
Sorry, I did not mean to misrepresent you. I guess I misunderstood. However I would like to say there is no such thing as an action that does not have a consequence. While yes, there is the possibility that "actual good' does not exist within absolute truth, I was simply speaking under the hypothetical that it does. When I am making assumptions in my arguments, I am trying to do it to make a point. I usually try to state when I am making assumptions.
It is my 'belief' that if there is a god, there is 'actual good', for some reasons that I've stated. But you needn't believe this. Nor am I trying to convince you of this.
STRONGER NOW SAID:
Now, as for an invisible, conscious, supreme being that is not self-refuting, you are right, no one can say such a being is disproven with certainty. However, we certainly can say that such a being, or "God", does remain UNproven. Do you see the difference between the two?...disproven, and unproven?
REPLY:
Yes I do. And Thank you. I am glad that we can finally agree on what I've been trying to get across. You cannot disprove God, nor can you Prove he exists. Therefore as you say, he remains unproven, but not disproven. My point exactly.
You seem to disagree with him. Is this true?
Me..." 'Atheism' is not a 'belief'; it is lack of belief. Projecting what you think 'Atheism' means will not work in this case. Insisting that the lack of belief is 'a belief' is redundant, unnecessary, and is fallacious reasoning."
Chimera' responds:
RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S COLLEGE DICTIONARY:
Atheism: The doctrine or BELIEF that there is no God.
Fine....
Atheist: noun 1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.[bold added]
(ref: Americian Heritage)
Dear Chimera',
"Theism" is the belief in God, yes? I hope you'll agree to that much. Putting the prefix "A" on "theism", is the same as putting the prefix "A" on other words, like "sexual", or "moral". So, a-sexual, or asexual, means NO sex. Likewise, putting the prefix "A" on "moral" means not having morals. Welp, the same holds true for A-theism, or Atheism...i.e..NO theism, or more concisely, NO BELIEF in "God"/gods. If you obstinately want to argue the point, then perhaps we can solve it with this simple test:
If I ask you if you belief in the Great Pumpkin, and loosely assuming you don't, which of the following answers best represents how you might answer:
a) "No, boom', I don't believe in the Great Pumpkin." ?
or.....
b) "Why YES, boom'!!..I DO believe that the Great Pumpkin doesn't exist!" ?
Suggestions: Be honest, and answer with "a", or "b".
You continue....You [are] not even addressing my issue.
Bullshit. You've given an executive summary of your "issue" more than once, and I've addressed it directly each and every time. Let's review:
Previously, you said:
Quote: **"Anyway, [I] stand by my point. The author of this blog does not know that there is no god."[emphasis added]
And again, here is my response to this in its entirety:
"We know that objects and/or beings that have attributes assigned to them that contradict, or by their very concept, have attributes that contradict, cannot exist. A few examples of some of these beings and objects are 'married bachelors' and 'square circles', respectively.
Do you follow so far?
The author is primarily focusing on definitions of "God" where human beings come along and assign attributes..i.e..personality traits, personal capabilities, etc., that CONTRADICT. He covers this extensively. In other words, if 'God' is claimed to be both circular and square, we know no such 'God' can exist. 'Get it?"
I can only conclude that you do NOT "get it". If I'm wrong, then please feel free to pick out which part you take issue with(of the above quoted), and explain in logical terms why you take issue with it.
You continue....As for the 'premise' of mine that you refer to. That is actually a 'hypothetcal argument', just like most of the authors and yours. Something you use to support a premise but if taken in the wrong circumstance or light, obvisouly you canpoke holes in it. I am not trying to convince you of that. I'm trying to make points.[emphasis added]
Yes!!...quote, "points". See your statement here**, above.
Chimera'...It is not my 'premise'. My premise thus far has only been addressed by stronger now. Everyone else is circumventing it when they can.
So then your "premise" is, in fact, NOT your "point"? That seems a bit odd.
Chimera'...My premise is still and has only ever been: 'you cannot disprove god.'
Well, I guess that answers that. But 'funny how that "premise" is a mere rewording of your "point", above.
Again, review your "point/premise" if you must, and likewise, then review my refutation(s). Here is a synopsis for your quick review, as I don't trust that you will go back and re-read them, let alone, try to entertain them:
1) IF "god" is defined with, and/or, assigned attributes that contradict logic. We can logically disprove that "god".
2) If, in someone's imagination, an invisible, conscious being exists that contradicts logic, then fine. They are entitled to believe as such.
3) If an invisible, conscious being that is not self-refuting exists in reality, then no, we cannot "disprove" it. However, no one, including the author, is saying that such an incomprehensible being is disproven.
4) If a "god" as described in "3" cannot be disproven, it doesn't mean that such a being exists by default. That premise is a non-sequitur argument...i.e..if you cannot disprove "X", then "X" is true.
Let me know what I've "circumvented", and how. Thanks.
As I obviously missed the line that divided Stronger Now's and your comment. I am withdrawing my last statement directed toward you since you obviously HAVE attempeted to address my issue, and I hope Stronger Now can see from your post that I obvioulsy should have been referring to you in some of my responses rather than him.
I guess sorry for the confusion.
So no you haven't circumvented.
"The same kind of reasoning that is seemingly self evident here, MAY be incorrect when applied to the real world."
and:
"Logic can get us into trouble."
In a reply to Boom' you said:
"You are simply wrong [Boomslang]. I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this. But not only does the dictionary back me up that Atheism is in fact a beliefe system, Athiesm is a belief system because it is based on things you don't really know."
In this little exchange you have made the assumtion that led you to an incorrect answer. Do you see what it was. It was when you thought that RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S COLLEGE DICTIONARY is somehow infallible. Look up the definition of atheism in several different dictionaries and you'll get different definitions. But first play along with Boomslang and answer the great pumpkin question please.
"However I would like to say there is no such thing as an action that does not have a consequence."
True. But I was thinking about a punishment as the cosequence. I'll try not to make that mistake again.
Boom' concerning the free will thing:"If he/she said such a thing, then I must've missed it.
What chimerafilm actually said was:
"Assuming that we are supposed to have free will and the will to choose. And that god wants us to grow to be spiritually “good”. There is a very good reason that a God could never reveal his existence to us. If we KNEW god existed. What free will would we really have? He cannot answer prayers in a direct fashion or show himself to us. If this happened, free will would evaporate."
But by now this is beating a dead horse. Unless chimerafilm still believes this.
You are right essentially, we would still have free will despite knowing that there is a God. But what I should have said is that our thinking would be influenced. You have to admit that. for example, If you knew there was a God, when bad things happened, you would no longer just deal with them. You would be thinking, Why would God do this? A lot of people wouldn't really be independent anymore. My point being that perhaps God would try to avoid this for one reason or another. Can you at least see what I'm saying?
As far as beliefs. Yes you can look Athiesm up in different dictionaries. I think of Athiesm as a belief system because it involves making a choice and taking a stand. Agnostisicm is closer to a lack of belief than Athiesm in my book. I just don't get why I was referred to as having "fallascious reasoning" and "Projecting by beliefs" about Atheism for syaing this. My point was that it is still based on what you 'think'.
Anyway, Like I said. I still don't think at the root of this, we even disagree. So unless someone has more too add...
You are right essentially, we would still have free will despite knowing that there is a God. But what I should have said is that our thinking would be influenced. You have to admit that. for example, If you knew there was a God, when bad things happened, you would no longer just deal with them. You would be thinking, Why would God do this? A lot of people wouldn't really be independent anymore. My point being that perhaps God would try to avoid this for one reason or another. Can you at least see what I'm saying?
As far as beliefs. Yes you can look Athiesm up in different dictionaries. I think of Athiesm as a belief system because it involves making a choice and taking a stand. Agnostisicm is closer to a lack of belief than Athiesm in my book. I just don't get why I was referred to as having "fallascious reasoning" and "Projecting by beliefs" about Atheism for syaing this. My point was that it is still based on what you 'think'.
Anyway, Like I said. I still don't think at the root of this, we even disagree. So unless someone has more too add...
Somthing like god is ABOVE science..its spiritual its not part of the earths or universe existance its a SPIRIT!!but forget that theories cuz that wont convice you huys beccause im sorry to say you all are ingorrant on such topics but I can say one last thing how I KNOW that god is real...and that is he lives inside me,I can FEEL hes love in me, I can sense the preccence of hes angels watching over me BUT the most wonderfull thing that your science cant explain is that I can HEAR hes voice talking to me and building a relationship up with and trust me Hes a COOL GUY!!! :-)
sorry for adding this comment on anti-christain website but that is what god wanted from me
god bless
the problem about your argumentt is that it isint balanced...when I read it I was like what about this?and this?and that?
Excellent refutation, very articulate -- I was astounded by the profundity of your arguments and the awesome wisdom and insight, you demonstrated. There's no doubt you are, well educated, or on your way to obtaining a doctorate, because, most assuredly, the world needs an intellect of your obvious, caliber and magnitude. ...this? and this? and that? and this? and like this, and like, that and this and like and like and like...
...and that is he lives inside me.
That's right; that's exactly, where god resides, in the abyss of your deluded, mind, nothing but a human construct -- a figment of your imagination.
sorry for adding this comment on anti-christain website but that is what god wanted from me
Wow, your god sure gives you the challenging tasks, doesn't he? Maybe, tomorrow, god will teach you how to tie your shoes or god wants something from you, that's really, challenging, like learning how to spell -- at least, with these task, you will have accomplished something.
--S.
I'm quite certain that science can explain why you hear God talking to you.
Tell your doctor he needs to adjust your medication.
For you enlightenment (that is, if your god "wants" you to re-visit our site.....)
7 Causes of Hearing Voices
Falling asleep - some people hear their name called.
Psychiatric disorders - Hearing voices
Psychological disorders - Hearing voices
Psychosis
Psychotic depression
Schizophrenia
See also hallucinations
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/symptoms/hearing_...
No evidence for the existence of "spirit".
"im sorry to say you all are ingorrant on such topics..."
Fuck you (and your lousy spelling, too).
"sorry for adding this comment on anti-christain website but that is what god wanted from me..."
No, that is what *you* wanted from you, as this god you speak to is the product of your own imagination. (And we're not in the business of accepting apologies from people who blame their own bad behaviour on an invisible friend.)
Pay very close attention to the list that Buffetphan so thoughtfully provided. If you're hearing actual voices while in a waking state, get professional help immediately.
This man is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot.
Lucky the Leprechaun kicked the Universe into existence with His magical, buckled shoe. Lucky Jr., His invisible Son, lives in my pancreas. He answers me when I ask for good luck. But sometimes the answer is "no". But I still have faith that Lucky loves me, because sometimes I find little clovers in my breakfast cereal! Praise Lucky!
Lucky bless you all!
Please don't trust your own thoughts - you're not that smart! None of us are...
I question my faith like anyone, but at least I keep challenging myself to learn more.
Your words are terrifying.
BB
Please don't trust your own thoughts - you're not that smart! None of us are...
Ummmmmmm........ then, how do you trust what you think?
...you better understand the magnitude of what your "theory" is.
Really? Tell me what is your understanding of the magnitude of the "theory" and explain how you can trust your thoughts, on the subject.
--S.
We are smart enough to 'know' your god is a mere myth and until some credible evidence comes along to prove we are wrong, why should we take the god-belief position that offers zero evidence on it's side?
Now go kiss your imaginary mental god and make him happy to have such a blind sheep follower.
ATF (Who trust his own thoughts and judgment, a thousand times more than some ancient convoluted bible book)
So we should trust your self-evident and self-admittedly limited thoughts on the subject? No thanks.
Did you know that there is evidence for evolution and that creationist are distorting the science?
Did you know your argument of "semi-creatured fossils" is as illogical as Zeno's paradox and we do have "transitional" fossils?
Did you know that we were all heirs of Prometheus who passed the divine fire to us?
Did you know archaeology has disputed the Bible's accuracy and the Bible contradicts itself in several places?
Did you know that the Bible has been edited many times throughout the century?
It is said in the Koran that many will be misled by false religions like Noobie's one.
Did you know Allah created the world?
Did you know Loki is going to destroy it?
Did you know Nostradamus prophecies all have come true?
(No evidence needed for my claims here just like Noobie)
I laugh at what you wrote cause its peurile and misinformed.
I dont want you to die - but its going to happen one day and God wont appear to you. I would ask you to be free from your zombie religion but then it would be too late. Take care.
--S.
I also dislike when people say that they believed in God, but when something tragic happened, they don't believe in Him anymore. Seems like you never believed or had faith in God (Jesus) in the first place. There are reasons why life is so stressful. It is to help excercise our faith and rely on Him. Also, it is OUR fault that the world is like this. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. But we should be grateful, because although He has punished us all, He also has made ways to make life more managable, but with some pain. (God is just, and he is not going to allow us to escape from disobeying Him) God does not cause harm. In fact, he has given you and me more blessings than we deserve. Satan and his demons are the ones that caused harm. In fact they were the ones that harmed Adam and Eve by enticing them. Please people, stop making excuses. God is real and real as can be!
Your fundie brainwashed 'mind' is beyond our help, so go preach elsewhere.
We've heard everything you've said, time and time again, and it holds-no-water with us.
FYI: If you say god causes no harm, then I suggest you read the OT and not just skim it!
"Excuses"?
I beg to differ, as you xtians are the one's who need excuses to keep your faith and it's book, alive.
The rest of us see clear reasons why your god cannot exist, all without making hundreds of lame excuses like you fundy-bots love to do.
ATF (Who wonders what primitive century Noobie typed this comment from?)
Always the same arguments just redressed in different formats. Funny actually that a good number of these arguments are from Pagan or Arab sources.
Actually if not for science progressing - apologetics would be completely stagnant.
Religion has always only been nothing but reactionary. Just look what they tried to do to Galileo.
the very that there are new theories in Biology and Physics has gotten all these Xtians working up a sweat trying to figure out rhetorical tactics in order to counter them. Xtian theories worked well till we learned more - and the more we learn the more strident the Xtian attacks on learning become. Its telling that a position is weak when it depends on ignorance and obedience to an authority that is exempt from proof.
The very fact that Xtians cant debate on the facts of evolution with independent peer-reviewed publications but create special interest lobbying groups to participate in the culture wars already shows that they are not interested in winning the argument based on truth but by marketing. When one requires mob action to win an argument, it usually means your argument is unsound.
Monkeys,
You really make some good points in this post.
>Actually if not for science progressing - apologetics would be completely stagnant.
Some might say that apologetics are stagnant anyway <g>
>Religion has always only been nothing but reactionary. Just look what they tried to do to Galileo.
Oh but it's okay, because the church gave Galileo a "pardon" a few years back.
Ah, but did anyone let Galileo know about that, right?
>the very that there are new theories in Biology and Physics has gotten all these Xtians working up a sweat trying to figure out rhetorical tactics in order to counter them.
I have to believe that a time is coming, where they'll have very little left in their arsenal of apologetics to counter science/history with.
They have already gone from having live ammo, to having mere 4th of July sparklers, to fight with.
> Its telling that a position is weak when it depends on ignorance and obedience to an authority that is exempt from proof.
Yes, and lots of wishful thinking as well.
Of course, it's all about skating around the fears they hold, that they can never face, so for them it's better to live a huge lie I suppose.
>The very fact that Xtians cant debate on the facts of evolution with independent peer-reviewed publications but create special interest lobbying groups to participate in the culture wars already shows that they are not interested in winning the argument based on truth but by marketing. When one requires mob action to win an argument, it usually means your argument is unsound
It sure reminds me of the tobacco lobbying groups that once tried so hard to convince everyone that smoking wasn't harmful.
Like xtians, they to also had no evidence (other than falsified) to present, so they couldn't fight oranges with oranges and had to resort to underhanded techniques to try and keep their industry afloat.
It's very telling that fundies have to jump through so many hoops when it comes to discounting evolution, and yet 99% of them have never even studied the theory (beyond what their own god-propagandist give them to read).
They never see verified god-healings, yet refuse to look too closely at them, or chance noticing that nothing miraculous has occurred.
They never see prayer answered, other than to force-fit some coincidence in their lives into their prayer equation. Yet they are sure god is right there answering their own prayers at times and when he doesn't seem to, they are well versed in excuses as to why god didn't.
The term "apologetics" is very telling if you ask me.
If you have no facts to present, then all you have left at your disposal are apologies to offer for your lack of evidence.
e.g. I apologize for not having credible proof, but just take my word for it anyway, god is real.
It really does sicken me at times to watch them squirm like worms and yet be totally unyielding to the evidence of reality !!
ATF (Who see's a xtian apologist in the same realm as a 2 year old, chocolate-faced toddler, who keeps denying to you that they ate that delicious forbidden chocolate cookie)
The world and all its complexities has been explained and always abdly throughout history by people dependent on myths and fables. We need to lie to ourselves because we are afraid of our own weakness. Thats why you feel guilty all the time - you secretly know you are weak not because you are a sinner but because you are so alone, unprotected and vulnerable in the world. You need a bedtime story parent to help you exist through this horrible loneliness.
he exists in your mind so you can feel good about yourself.
When something bad happens to others - you feel good that it didnt happen to you - because God loves you (a.k.a you actually are self-absorbed and selfish)
If something happens to you - you are stuck only to turn to your imaginary friend. he is your ego - so in a sense you are still relying ultimately on yourself and your pride.
This imaginary friend is the foundation for yourself - if you didnt keep making him up - your whole personality would collapse. You would be what you truly are - Deeply insecure and afraid of life.
That is why you dont like people saying they dont believe in your God (who is you) - because they are actually attacking your ego. Dont worry its natural - most prideful people act that way - just like what you are doing.
You are right that its all your fault - you decided to feel mentally and emotionally to this fictional friend (God) and you need to feel guilty for it. You cant understand why there is pain in your life so you rationalize it by creating imaginary enemies for your imaginary friends. That allows you to explain why this fictional friend that loves you (acyually you loving yourself) actually is unable to do anything "special" for you directly.
In the end - your life is going to be spent making excuses for your imaginary friend - never realising that the imgainary friend is actually your own fears and inadequacies, your pride and anger. God is real to you because it actually are the parts of your life you cannot comprehend.
But have faith! Dont think!! Keep misinterpreting your fears and hopes as the purview of your imaginary friends. ancient people have done that all the time. But just before you die - you will feel the hollow emptiness when you realize there is no special place waiting for you - Just the gathering darkness. In that split second your whole life would have been a complete lie - you will only realize it at the very end.
Fairytales don't count.
--S.
you are a poo poo face. I don't know what you say. You talk with big words. Jesuz does not like big words.Jesus loves me, this I know, cuz the bibo tell me so! You will go to hell. You too AFT. Don't make fun of me. I smart. Jesuz make me smart. I go to heaben when I die. You are doo doo heads!
Noobie
Jebus does-int lub U, unless he's hungry.
The only 'bibo' you should be using, is the one you where whilst eatin yur grits.
Our wurds ain't too big. Mine are the same size on my monitor as the one's on yur rabbit-ear TV box would be.
My name is ATF not AFT.
AFT is yur female kissing-cuzin's initials.
Dont believeee all that dribble bout hell being a bad place. All the funner peoples will be there and we can have big party time, but only if you bring da beer and chips.
ATF (Who thinks he just lost 20 IQ points, in writing this comment...haha)
<<<< Smack forehead with palm of hand >>>>
i.e. Nonsense, on top of more nonsense...WOW !!
ATF (Who might get to this later, but not now)
Please do NOT quote the bible.
We here do not believe that the bible is God's word (not one bit) and any attempts by using the bible will be laughed at.
Also, please disprove the following gods/goddesses without quoting the bible.
If your God is the only god, then this should be a breeze.
Allah
Apollo
Dionysus
Horus
Helios
Juno
Loki
Mars
Zeus
Disprove ALL of these gods please, not just two or three.
- TORM (Who wants fundies to learn how to format their paragraphs)
What Noobie leaves out in his selective understanding of the Bible so he can selectively plead his case
Flat earth - One of many verses
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it
Pillars hold up earth
Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble.
The earth does not move
Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved
Isa 40:22 does not say it is a sphere - the direct translation of the word chugh is circular circuit - which is flat. In another verse where a sphere is described in the bible - a different Hebrew word is used. So it is not referring to a sphere.
Joshua 10:13 The sun stood still, and the moon stayed. - care to explain that?
Accuracy of Job on the hydrologic cycle
hail and snow stored in storehouses
Job 38:22 Have you entered the storehouses of the snow, or have you seen the storehouses of the hail?
Where are those warehouses Noobie?
Rain stored in separate place in sky
Genesis 7:11-12[O]n that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. And rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 1: 6-7 And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven.
Furthermore actually there is a translation problem with Job 36:27-28 - gara is the hebrew word used and that means to withdraw or diminish but modern translations say distill. Furthermore its referent may mean God diminishes the rivers and not rainwater itself. So modern translations inteprete what is a problematic text to fit with modern science!! Btw Greek philosophers have hydrologic cycles describes several thousands years ago and China/Egypt both were taking sophisticated hyrdologic measurements.
What Bible says about oceans
Jeremiah 51:36 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will plead thy cause, and take vengeance for thee; and I will dry up her sea, and make her springs dry.
Thats contradictory to the hydrologic cycle - by saying that oceans are replenished by a spring.
Furthermore Ps 8:8 was originally translated as paths of the sea - youhave chosen to interprete it as ocean currents but as it stands its a metaphor that can be describe navigational routes known to Phoenicians or Egyptians to already observable routes in which birds fly across water masses.
Useless "scientific" revelations
Lev 17:11about blood. Erm.... Doesnt any culture and civilisation know that blood is kinda essential to life? Are you kidding me that this is somehow a revelation. Check out the tons of older near-Eastern cultures obsessed with blood and its link to life.
Job 22: 12; Gen 15:5, 22: 17; Jer. 33:22 - stars are innumerable and far away - dont need any Book to tell me that - anyone who looks in the sky will say so. The OT was collated in 500 BCE and by that time many cultures in the region had been interested in the skies. Not exclusive to the Bible - plus nothing really scientific displayed here - just observation any non-blind human can make.
PART 2
Since the other respondents here have more than adequately shown your examples to be a pack of lies - lets begin with a list of what the Bible gets WRONG.
Leviticus 11:13-19 These are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten , . . . the eagle, and . . . the bat.
The bat is a bird LOL! Obviously God does not even know his own creation.
Leviticus 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
There are birds at that time with four legs! Please show me the fossil record Mr noobie - evolutionary expert!
Leviticus 11:22-23 These ye may eat; the locust...and the beetle...and the grasshopper. But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.
Insects have four legs......really? Look at your nearest bug and tell me how many legs you see.
Deuteronomy 32.11 As the eagle taketh her young and bearth them on her wings.
Eagles bear their young on their wings - what utter nonsense.
I Kings 7:23 He then made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from brim to brim. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely.
Pi =3!?! haha any schoolkid can debunk the Bible. if the Bible cant get pass simple mathematics why should we expect it to be any better at biology or cosmology?
2nd Kings 20:11 And Isaiah … brought the shadow back ten steps, by which the sun had declined on the dial of Ahaz.
The sun can reverse course! Here the sun reverses 10 degrees - wow!
Matthew 13:31-32 Jesus said, The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree.
Mustard seed is not the smallest seed in the world - it is the orchid seed. Did Jesus get his facts wrong??? Can God be mistaken? Oooooh
The Bible mentions cockatrices, dragons and unicorns - just like fantasy books like Lord of the Rings or the Wizard of Earthsea. See any connection? They are all just fantasies. Furthermore if you say they exist - provide fossil record for the unicorn and the cockatrice?
Your Bible proves itself inconsistent and dead wrong when it comes to certain scientific facts and the "special revelations" you claim are not consistent with the original translations and are at best merely ambiguous metaphors.
Here is your problem - your assumptions
A.) you believe God is all-knowing
B.) you believe the Bible is directly inspired by God
it follows
C.) the Bible must be inerrant on every single claim since God is all-knowing
However - this claim is falsifiable if a single claim in the Bible is false
eg.) if insects do not have 4 legs - then the Bible is not inerrant!
So you are left with the sad and tiring task of making endless excuses and lies - all we need to do is show one error to show that your position is wrong. We dont have to know everything - we just need to know that the Bible is not perfect and hence cannot come from a perfect being.
Luckily science does not claim perfect knowledge and hence can adjust his claims based on the dictates of evidence. Evidence that slowly accumulates and makes the Biblical claims seem more and more anachronistic as the years go by.
Noobie - I know how difficult it is for you to be a Christian. I recommend finding a nice hole somewhere where you will never come across another word that contradicts your imaginary friend.
You may be living a lie - but at least you will be happy in your deep dark hole. Plus it doubles up as a pre-made tomb - you are mentally in one already. Take that great leap of faith Noobie - Save God by sacrificing your mind!
For example, Isa. 40: 22; Job 26: 7 explained that the earth is a sphere
WRONG -- nowhere in the bible does it say the earth is a sphere. It says the earth is a circle. The reason people back then thought it was a flat circle is because when they climbed the highest peak and surveyed the land by spinning around it was perceived as a circle. Your strained conclusion that a circle is a sphere is like saying a square is a cube.
Job 36: 27-28; Eccles 1:7; Amos 5:8 explains that the water cycle keeps the land watered.
WRONG -- the primitive people of the bible had no idea what evaporation, condensation, precipitation was. All they knew -- from observation -- was that when it got cloudy it was potentially going to rain. It is not scientific to say god put the rain in the clouds.
Ps 8:8 explains that the ocean currents flow through the sea. This explains why we have different currents in different locations.
WRONG -- The author of Psalm 8:8 was only talking about how man ruled over the animals of the land and all the ocean creatures that passes along the paths of the sea -- NO OCEAN CURRENTS.
Lev 17:11 explains that blood sustains life.
DER? NO KIDDING. Nothing profound here. When a barbaric culture uses weapons like daggers and swords to kill people it isn't difficult to ascertain that when your blood flows out of your body, you become pasty and sallow, you go unconscious and then die.
Job 22: 12; Gen 15:5, 22: 17; Jer. 33:22 explains that the stars are incredibly distant from the earth and cannot be numbered.
Yep, Again nothing profound. What other observation could they have come up with? Additionally, the distance of those stars prove the earth is older then 6,000-10,000 years old because some stars and galaxies are millions and billions of light years away.
Eccles. 1:6 explains the winds form a circular system. This explain why we have different air currents of northen and souther hemisphere. (This also give way to how tornadoes are created)
WRONG -- the only thing it proves is they can tell by observation that the wind can be blowing from the south and from the north and they can also tell by observation that wind can swirl. This in no way describes how tornadoes are created.
You would think that the creator of the entire universe could describe accurately how tornadoes form.
Too bad the creator of the universe could NOT describe, accurately, how tornadoes form, like our scientist can:
Tornadoes are generally formed in a thunderstorm. Thundershowers this violent require a complex mix of environmental conditions but usually include: a) very warm, humid air, b) very cool, dry air to the west and south, c) air to the west trying to replace the warm, moist air (a front moving in), c) upper level (high in the sky) conditions that first hold down warmer air from rising and then later, a complete reverse in conditions that let the warm air rise very fast and very far, and d) an upper level wind stream to move the air away from the rising column.
Gen. 2:7, 3: 19; Ps. 103: 14 explains that man's body is composed of the same materials as the earth
WRONG -- it only tells us god made us from soil or dust. It would be something though if the creator of the universe could have broke it down and told us exactly what we are composed of:
Oxygen (65%)
Carbon (18%)
Hydrogen (10%)
Nitrogen (3%)
Calcium (1.5%)
Phosphorus (1.0%)
Potassium (0.35%)
Sulfur (0.25%)
Sodium (0.15%)
Magnesium (0.05%)
Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron (0.70%)
Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, Bromine (trace amounts)
Most of the human body is made up of water, H2O, with cells consisting of 65-90% water by weight. Therefore, it isn't surprising that most of a human body's mass is oxygen.
GOD GOT IT WRONG -- we are mostly made out of water not dirt or dust.
These examples in fact proves creationism.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha -- you are a complete ignoramus.
It explains that things evolve for the better
WRONG -- it doesn't say that at all. This only proves your ignorance to what evolution is. Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. A cave fish will lose it's ability to see over time -- this is a result -- not better or worse.
The Bible also expained that dianours/dragons existed for in the book of Job chapter 40, they talked about behemoths.
WRONG -- the exact meaning of the Hebrew word "twmhb", translated as behemoth, is not known. Most translations stick with an elephant or hippopotamus.
It is also stated in the Bible, the Book of Revelation, that in the end times, people will turn away from God and do what they find pleaseing to them.
Throughout the history, of the world, people have turned away from god. The entire bible is about people turning away from god. It's been a constant.
The wind is real, yet you can't see it.
WRONG -- There are real physical aspects to air. Air is made up from molecules composed from 78% Nitrogen, 20% Oxygen, .93% Argon, .038% Carbon Dioxide and traces of other gases. Elements, molecules and atoms have been seen for quite some time now, with the invention of a microscope and electron microscope.
You can also see air every time you look at the atmosphere. When the sun reflects off the atmosphere, the light -- using the correct term -- is "scattered" by the molecules in the air. Seeing the blue sky is seeing the air. Also if you have ever seen a mirage on a hot road while you were driving, those almost transparent wavy lines are the updraft of hot air. Empirical evidence exists, to the existence of air.
Can you see God? Is there empirical evidence?
Jesus also said that He will be please with those who do not see Him, yet obey Him and trust and follow Him because it takes true faith to do so. And it takes true faith to enter in the kindom of heaven.
If there was evidence of god existing, you wouldn't need faith.
You can never know unless you try. It only takes that one baby-step to achieve a true relationship with God/ Jesus.
The only relationship you have with god/Jesus is the one taking place in the abyss of your mind -- nothing but a human construct, a figment of your imagination. You are the equivalent of the insane, uneducated, sweaty, preacher who babbles scripture, to push a delusional agenda. All you do is make absurd claims you can't back up, which means they're not even worth the hot air you use to spew such nonsense.
--S.
It seems my compadres have answered most of this, but let's see if there are any leftovers to munch upon.
[ To BB: Did I spell "compadres" correctly? ]
>Science does not and cannot explain everything. That is a fact!
It doesn't even try to make such a claim. However, at least it doesn't behave as stagnant water, like your bible knowledge does.
> When you compare the Bible and Evolution, the Bible gives a more solid foundation of general science, history, and spiritual needs.
Your bible is inept when it comes to science and history and I'll not bother to explain to you why, as there is plenty of information on that subject all over the web for you to find easily.
Spiritual Needs?
Wouldn't that assume we have a spirit, which of course, you have zero proof that we do, right?
If you mean spiritual as in something more down-to-earth, then whatever floats your boat bud.
> Job 22: 12; Gen 15:5, 22: 17; Jer. 33:22 explains that the stars are incredibly distant from the earth and cannot be numbered.
Firstly, the fact that these ancient people believed the stars can't be numbered shouldn't surprise anyone, given how many stars one could see in the days before light-pollution ruined the view of the night sky.
Guessing that there were lots of stars didn't take any knowledge from any god, that's for sure.
Now where I have a problem is how you make a claim that they knew how "incredibly distant" the stars were, and so let's see if you're correct here on the scripture you quoted to us.
Jer. 33:22
As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
Nope, nothing here about the distance of stars, only their assumed quantity
Gen 15:5:
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Nothing here either.
Gen 22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies
Bssst, nothing here either mister Doobie.
Job 22:12
Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are
Out of all your references here, this one is the only one that talks about possible distance of the stars.
So what did they know, based on this piece of scripture?
They knew ONLY that the stars were at a great height from the ground.
Does it say they had any idea that stars were no where even close to the earth, or even as near as the other planets in our solar system?
NO !!
This statement once again, is clearly written from the perspective of some ancient men and not some special wisdom imparted from any god being.
YOU FAIL !!
>[Evolution] explains that things evolve for the better, yet how is that possible.
Who taught you evolution, because no where do they say that things evolve "for the better".
That is a xtian belief as to what evolution says.
No biologist would ever make such a statement.
Life evolves to fit the environment it resides in. You might call it 'better', but that word is very subjective and what you might think is better, might not be, and also the reverse.
> There are some animals for example that contridict that statement. For expample the giraffe. If things evolve for the better, then why aren't all the giraffes living today? It would have to take millions of years for the girrafes' body to regulate blood flow to the brain when kneeling or for growing a neck that long without being sick or dead for it to be as it is now. If you believe in Evolution, then there wouldn't be giraffes.
Here is a short article on how giraffes got long necks--- and it wasn't merely to obtain food, as most suppose to be the case.
http://www1.pacific.edu/~e-buhals/GIRAFFE2.htm
In a nutshell, this is the crux of the conclusion:
> The Bible also expained that dianours/dragons existed for in the book of Job chapter 40, they talked about behemoths.
Okay, first off, dragons never existed. Get over it !!
Dinosaur bones would explain how word got out about giant behemoths and it's not far fetched that some would have easily assumed from such bones, that there must be living-breathing dinosaurs in addition to bones.
With great certainty, there were no giants around in the time of recorded history that your bible book covers. If you wish to believe otherwise, then perhaps you see the Flintstones Cartoon as more of a documentary?
> Also, we all came from Adam and Eve for the Bible stated that Eve bore sons and DAUGHTERS (Gen. 5:4). Incest was infact normla then, until the Book of Leviticus when God commanded all to not do such a thing and marry their distant relatives instead of close ones.
OR...the writers of your bible book, screwed up when they made up this Adam and Eve story....which of course, is much more likely the case.
>It is also stated in the Bible, the Book of Revelation, that in the end times, people will turn away from God and do what they find pleaseing to them
So you find this prophecy something amazing, do you?
I guess you don't set your sights very high when it comes to getting much more details in your prophecies of the future, huh?
> I can only do so much for you to underterstand that God/Jesus is true and real.
Actually, there is nothing you can do and your efforts thus far, have done just the opposite and made most of us very glad we got away from such lame outdated thinking and superstitions.
>The wind is real, yet you can't see it.
Did you even bother to see if this old/lame apologetic had been answered a million times already, before you cited it (AGAIN) here?
I guess not.
> God is real because he shows us prove, yet you can't see him unless you saw Jesus Himself. When Thomas, one of Jeus disciples in the Bible saw Jesus after his resurrection, he had noticed that Jesus was infact the son of God for he put his hands in Jesus wonds.
Okay, let's suppose there was a jesus (doubtful) and let's further suppose that he really came back from the dead to.
So then why did Thomas get first hand proof and yet today we are expected to believe on mere say-so?
Why did so MANY throughout your bible book, get to see god's miracles first-hand and sometimes even see god, yet we see nothing like this today?
When did god's standards of proof to us humans get so severely lowered?
> Trust me, if you are an unbeliever or if you are unsure
I wouldn't trust you (and your piece of ancient fiction), if you had the "good housekeeping seal of approval".
> please join a church, ask the pastor questions and learn to pray.
Oh, so one has to LEARN how to pray, or what, god won't hear you praying.
Does that mean god has some limits in his abilities to hear prayer?
>You will find a complete difference in your life and it will be all for the better. You can never know unless you try. It only takes that one baby-step to achieve a true relationship with God/ Jesus.
You do realize you are talking to EX-xtians here, some of whom were very dedicated to your jesus at one time in their lives?
So why are you preaching at us as if we know nothing about your idiot god and his out-of-wedlock son?
(Daddy god didn't bother to marry the virgin Mary, did he?)
I highly suggest Noobie Doobie, that you get a real life and lay off the fantasy stuff for the time being. It really doesn't sit very well with your brain, so it seems.
ATF (Who thinks Noobie needs to find some far better apologetics, and should stop his habit of "LYING FOR JESUS")
I shall strike them down with my Lightning-3000-gattling cannon and lay waste to their feeble attempts at disproving my 2000 year old bestselling book ghostwritten by men i drove insane with my in-house Special Effects department.
Do not even let a single word of their viper-tongued rants enter your beatific perfect mind (I named it XP30-J) which I designed to be perfectly impervious to reason and rationality. Faith was all the mind was ever built for till Satan put a virus in my goddamn laptop and ermm....imperfected by perfect design. *grumble* Some really teeny weeny minor symptoms may include sin and death - but all in all - I am satisfied with the consumer response.
Afterall you can always refer back to my Holy Manual - just ignore all the first bits about me killing people- that was never meant to be in the official biography anyway. You can be rest assured I will never do that today - I satisfy all my aggressive inclinations on those sinners I keep locked away under my bed in a cardboard box called HELL. Just dont tell the missus I still have it OK? - I promised to chuck it away after she caught me playing with my sinners in the bathroom.
Get thee to one of my many approved Christian franchises - but beware of those that do not ask you for one-tenth of your livelihood. God likes to get paid - or he will make your life into a subprime mortgage like what he did to Job.
I will deal with these Atheist morons later Noobie. They will pay for their insolence and lack of faith.
they will burn in hellish torment beyond what you and I can possibly imagine! Doesnt that make you feel tingly all over?
Yeaaahhh........
I understand completely how you feel - I am a proud jealous red-blooded God and my first instinct to every argument is to reach for the Divine toolbox of disasters. Stick with me Noobie and I will try to keep an eye out for you while I am blasting people apart with earthquakes and tsunamis. No guarantees though - they tend to be area-effect suffering and I never been big on precision guided justice - just would make me look weak to the other Gods in the neighborhood. man - I cant stand that Buddha guy - what a self-righteous snob!
But most importantly - Dont use your brain beyond specified design limitations. Try not to think - it will only hurt.
Just keep praying and remember - I will always love you.
P.s. just a friendly word of advice - when I was making various men crazy with completely incoherent visions in order to rant about how great I was - i found that those who ranted in paragraphs were actually more useful in convincing others that I was great and existed. If you really want to convince these bunch of ungrateful heathens that i exist - try paragraphs. Keep fighting the good fight Noobie!!
In particular, your comments on biology are spectacularly misinformed -- You don't even know the basics of what the Theory of Evolution actually says. No, it does not claim that things "evolve for the better", and if you had actually studied evolutionary biology you would know that.
Furthermore... Whatever makes you think that we'd ever want to become like you, you hapless, superstitious turd-sculptor? You come here as a representative of something that poisoned our lives and the lives of the people around us. We are not interested in going back to that horror.
May you, too, one day see through the myth.
But my strong catholic mother says this, "Even if the whole theory of religion is based upon lies, all these false hopes [hypothetically] are just trying [and succeeding in certain places] to make people be kind to one another, and for everyone to get along."
I agree, even if there was no Jesus, and the Bible's just a scam for church collection baskets to ring in some dough, i don't mind the fact that a large percentage of the world, follows the "Ten Commandments". I go to a catholic school too, i don't pray or anything, but i stand up and respect their religion, as i would hope they'd respect my thoughts and viewpoints on deity's and such.
Scott,
Have you actually read and pondered these 10 god 'suggestions', BOTH biblical versions of them?
Don't you find it interesting how some dumb items made the top 10 hit-parade, but things that should have, didn't even get a mention or simple footnote?
Do you really think a large percentage of this world not only knows and retains in their minds, the 10 commandments, but actually follows these ancient laws?
BTW...Could you please define for me what "KILL" means, and when does it applies and when it doesn't?
Thanks,
ATF (Who wonders which religious nut-job of old, actually made these laws up)
Yes Scott, such as "Thou shalt not molest children." Attending a catholic school, you better watch out for that one in particular.
So, promoting the positive effects of lying is okay, if it helps one to be kind and get along with others. I recall a similar sentiment; killing is okay in the Roman Empire's Christendom, if it helps people "get along".
Scott McKnight: "I agree, even if there was no Jesus, and the Bible's just a scam for church collection baskets to ring in some dough, i don't mind the fact that a large percentage of the world, follows the "Ten Commandments".
Seems reasonable, except when noting the commandment which demands there is only one god to be worshipped - it is that commandment alone that sets its adherents against their neighbor, community and society at large.
The issue is between one of "acceptance" and "application"... the "ten commandments" represent a "decree" addressed to "all" people in society, etc. If one actually believed the "ten commandments" were "authoritative", they'd apply judgment and action against those who didn't heed the words of "their God" (absurd word).
If one bears false witness against their neighbor, while in the service of their "One True God" (absurd word), then they are pardonable... to those who bear false witness against their neighbor without belief in a "God" - they are guilty and unpardonable.
In short, the "ten commandments" are mere "suggestions" to those who believe the most "important" rule is to serve/worship their "One True God" (absurd word). An individual who is steadfast in their service to the "One True God" (absurd word), will logically justify breaking "all" other commandments to ensure their "service" or freedom to "serve" continues.
The portions of the "ten commandments" that seem "reasonable", only have "integrity" when perceived from a non-theological/non-ideological (secular) point of view.
Scott McKnight: "I go to a catholic school too, i don't pray or anything, but i stand up and respect their religion, as i would hope they'd respect my thoughts and viewpoints on deity's and such."
There is no reason to believe you should receive respect from those who strictly adhere to a theology based on "god" above all else. If you hope for mutual respect, it will only come from those who see religion/theology from a secular point of view, or secondary to human affairs.
Well, I think you're making an assumption here really.
If a 'god' did exists, how can anyone be sure the result would be "peachy clean"?
What if we landed up with an evil god, or one who liked dirty things etc.?
we are all sent here for taking care of this world! (as an attempt)
Who sent us to take care of this world, space aliens?
however we all forgot why or where we came from, the lost worlds that ever evolve and grow and lose....
So we came from some lost world then?
the Universe was and always IS there, it has no beginning! only the stars inside that die and are born keep going on!!
Now this part I agree with.
the Hubble is only a wee eye and everytime it gets "updated" it sees ever more! see? there is no beginning of the Universe that always is there! the universe is the " 0"
Actually, the Hubble keeps seeing further away, which correlates to further back in time.
It has no means to see the very beginning of the universe (singularity), nor what might have preceded our present universe.
ATF
even if there were a god, if you dont believe you go to "hell" thats just bull, he sounds like a prick to me...
and where is "heavan" and "hell" i dont see how it can exist... i mean everything started somewhere right? then where did god start? he couldnt just magicly show up and "creat" a bunch of shit...
You opened your interesting post with the following confounding apologetic:
“Your problem, all of you, is that you're trying to reconcile the physical world we see around us with a power that is beyond comprehension.”
However…
If it’s “…beyond our comprehension”, all we can do is MAKE IT UP.
Otherwise it’s NOT “…beyond our comprehension.”
True or false?
Then you wrote:
“First-off, using our "logic" to prove or disprove god would require human reasoning to be flawless.”
Oops! So of course the same can be said for the obverse.
And then:
“If even one tiny aspect of our logic were flawed, it would completely negate any attempt to disprove the existence of God.”
But Robert, ‘god’ is not a ‘given’. There is NO EVIDENCE apart from a fervent human-generated wish for the concept to be so.
If some, or ANY, ‘god’ was a ‘given’, a ‘plain-as-day’ fact, children wouldn’t be born unaware of such a major cosmic life-force. However, they are, and the only way they gain such ‘information’ is to be instructed by fellow humans about an awareness that should be instinctive and intrinsic to our species. Seems it’s not though.
True or false?
I found this section meaty and well ‘reasoned’ though:
“I don't know about you guys, but I'm not overly impressed with our reasoning skills. However many million years ago, some low-browed neanderthall discovered if you smash two rocks together you get fire. Now, 2000 years after the death of Christ (dare i speak his name), we've moved beyond fire to such things as the atomic bomb and fossil fuels. Sure, it took a bit more head-scratching to come up with these things, but at the end of the day, we've only discovered more advanced ways of smashing rocks together.
We say we're making great discoveries, that we're explaining the mysteries of the universe, but all we're really doing is analyzing, quantifying, and utilizing pre-existing powers that are totally beyond our control. We can split an atom and think, "Hey, Wow!! I could probably blow up a city doing that", but we can't explain why that atom exists in the first place, or where that enormous energy came from.
The fact of the matter is that our logic has sent the world to hell in a handbasket. It's been barely a hundred years since the industrial revolution and we're threatened by global warming, nuclear war, the pollution of our food supply and a thousand other tragedies."
I so agree with your list of infuriatingly obvious human limitations.
However, I, like the majority of posters to this site, haven’t seen or heard any god or gods.
It hasn’t happened.
It’s all too evidentially down to nature, and to the best, but seemingly usually worst of our actions.
I attribute the grim and disappointing realisations you mention to the unavoidable evidence that as a survivor-species, we’re just not up to it. We flounder around and make awful messes and foul-ups, (that we can so often see coming!), under the control of our tragi-comic ‘intellectual glass ceiling’.
(And all the while we squawk, beef and lament as though we’re at a horror movie except that it’s real life and we’re unable to halt our natures crazy destructive ways.)
We're plenty clever and cunning, but not so hot with the intelligence.
Then you demonstrate a transparent bias:
“After all our advancements, if we can't make sense of such a quaint, fundamental question, (“Does the Universe end, or is it infinite?”)how could we possibly trust our logic to disprove the existence of God?
Well Robert, just like all the other life forms we’re taking out with our narcissistic abuse of natures support systems, we don’t know and that’s just the way it is.
And your last word:
“The real question is, when you watch the news at night, do you really want to get out of bed in this world if God doesn't exist?”
Well for me, to declare that ANY of the, (to our species), wonderful sounds and things that make life rich, rewarding and awe-inspiring, are the work of a benevolent human-focussed super-thing would be just a self-centred decision. A decision to anthropomorphise and in a sense ‘own’ everything I don’t understand.
In all honesty, I can’t and won’t do that. I’d know that I was just pleasing myself.
Steve.
A hypothetical and not necessarily sentient power.
"First-off, using our "logic" to prove or disprove god would require human reasoning to be flawless."
Unsupported assertion. I can easily deduce that 1+1=2 by putting two pennies on My desk; the fact that I don't know everything about Life, the Universe and Everything does not prevent Me from coming up with a meaningful answer.
"Here's a doozy: Does the Universe end, or is it infinite?"
Insufficient data. And what, exactly, does this have to do with the existence or non-existence of gods?
We all hear old folk tales, Native American legends, and stories people used to tell to describe why things happened, and we all know they're not true. What makes religion any different? Religion is nothing but a story to help people feel more comfortable about life.
Long ago, we didnt know what caused the weather, so we assumed it was a god. We now have scienfific facts to prove that weather is not created by a god. It is the same with life and death. We dont know why we're here, we dont know what happens when we die. So what do people do?-Blame it all on God. There are many things that happen in this world that we have no clue as to why or how they happen, but this is why science and technology are progressing- so we can find out why things happen, so we dont have to keep putting all out faith into false gods.
People think that they must have an explanation for everything, and this is why we have religion. The magic of life is trying to FIND OUT these mysteries during our journey. Not everything has to be explained, at least not until we have the technology to figure these mysteries out. I am completely happy not knowing at all why I am here. This just makes me more eager to go out and to enjoy life, and maybe, when I die, I will know what purpose my life had. After all, if you dont know what happens when you die, that just makes it that much easier to go out and enjoy your life while you still have it.
There are many mysteries in the world, some of which may never be solved. It is each person's duty in life's journey to attempt to discover the truth for themselves. So before anybody comes to try to tell me about God, I say, get your head out of that book and go experience life for yourself, and I will too, and at the end of each person's great journey, they WILL know the truth, God or no god.
Heidegger started Being and Time with the assumption that time preceded being. Anyway, he quit the book before it was finished (what we have now is like a third of his planned opus). He quit because he realized being comes before time, not time before being (ontologically, of course). Don't assume that human knowledge is ultimate knowledge, that everything must also be restricted to the linear space/time.
I would recommend studying Aristotle and Plotinus in particular to everyone who wishes to have such debates. And I think, while it may sound elitist, that people should have more of a background in philosophy before going around "disproving God." Really. I mean, Russell, Frege, Wittgenstein (who I'm a fan of), they basically chucked all of philosophy and started with their own thing. They were scientists. What a joke. I'm not a scientist, so I'm not going to jump into that field and start all over, throwing out, oh, I don't know, Galileo, Newton, Copernicus. That'd be laughable, wouldn't it?
Please. If you're going to take on issues such as existence and time and God, do some research into it. People much smarter than you are have spent a lot of time on these ultimate questions. It's pretty arrogant to have such discussions without acknowledging first that you're minnows swimming with sharks. You're boys playing a man's game.