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Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Astreja — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 03:07:00 -0000

Ask all you like, Anonymous. The answer is 'No'.

Why are stories like that of Mr. Ryan featured so prominently on this site?

To point out that "men of God" are actually just ordinary men. No magical Holy Ghosties guiding their hearts. No supernatural Big Conscience in the Sky. Just simple abuse of power by people claiming to have knowledge of such beings.

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:58:00 -0000

I happen to go to this church. And he was a close friend, along with his victim. None of you know what you are talking about, for the sake of the people involved i ask for you to stop.

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

eel_shepherd — Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:49:00 -0000

A little anonymouse squeaked:
"... Hoping to see you in the heavens...I know I will be there...how about you?"

You're going to be there? Well, that makes it easy...

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Chris — Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:15:00 -0000

Anonymous,

I've been fighting the urge to respond to your stupidity, but ultimately decided that there are a couple ignorant statements that need to be pointed out for your benefit, if for no other reason.

First of all, your use of caps is incredibly annoying. If you want people to actually read what you've written, try to write it like any normal, intelligent person would.

"It is pathetic to see people like you anti-religious folk use poor excuses like these to justify that EVERY Christian is that way."

You're the only person saying that EVERY Christian is that way. I for one know that when I was a Christian I was not that way. I also personally know at least a hundred Christians that are not that way. This story is about a pastor, not your average Christian. Pastors are supposed to be leaders and examples for their congregations and are entrusted with extra responsibility and power. If this were the only pastor that had inappropriately engaged in sexual acts with a teenager, then it would be easier to forgive and forget. Instead, he's another added to the growing list who has abused his power. If pastors are not called out on these types of crimes against humanity, then what's to stop the next pervert from using his position of power to get into a child's pants? The abuse of power by individuals like this man has to stop, and that starts with exposing it for the evil that it is.

"YOU who use excuses to attack other sinners (Christian or non-Christian) and use these excuses to pretend there is no God, sin, heaven, hell, or Satan are on for a BIG surprise on judgement day."

Take a look at who's actually making excuses...it's you. You're making excuses for this pastor. You're standing up for him, even though he's the one who has wronged humanity. Also, who's pretending? We're not pretending that there is no God, heaven, hell, or Satan. We don't have any proof that any of those things exist. Acknowledging the non-existence of something is the opposite of pretending. You pretend that it exists, with no evidence to prove it. As for sin, well if you define sin as the opposite of goodness, morals, and ethics, as most people would define it, then no one here is pretending that it doesn't exist. In fact, we've done the opposite by showing that this pastor has sinned.

Lastly, all your doom and gloom talk only makes me that much happier to be out of Christianity. I hate the fact that I was duped into believing in a god who treats us worse than trash. Your god not only throws away creations that he fucked up on, but then proceeds to burn them with a passion, and keeps the fire burning forever. He enjoys listening to the blood-curdling screams from atop his great white toilet where he shits on people like Job to prove a point to an enemy that he's already defeated. Who the fuck can respect that kind of god?

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

shannerwren — Sat, 28 Apr 2007 09:44:00 -0000

Anon, Good luck with the heaven thing – maybe Jeffrey Dahmer could be your sponsor. He can show you around heaven and take you to the different hot spots especially the window to hell where you can look down and watch Gandhi being tortured. Sweet!

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Astreja — Sat, 28 Apr 2007 03:32:00 -0000

Anonymous, April 28: It is pathetic to see people like you anti-religious folk use poor excuses like these to justify that EVERY Christian is that way.

It's even more pathetic to see Christians making excuses for their pretend god not protecting the girl from the predatory pastor.

...but if this pastor and the 16 yo girl are TRULY repentive...

WTF?? Are you seriously claiming that the girl, the victim in all this, has to repent? That's a sick point of view if ever I heard one.

Hoping to see you in the heavens...I know I will be there...how about you?

No, thank you. I am confident that I would much prefer the grave to the company of the sadistic and thoroughly evil Biblical god. A being that would create a place such as "hell" is unworthy of worship.

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Anonymous — Sat, 28 Apr 2007 02:48:00 -0000

It is pathetic to see people like you anti-religious folk use poor excuses like these to justify that EVERY Christian is that way. It is so easy for YOU to attack a person who either a.) may not even be a Christian or b.) a person who is a Christian who unfortunately went this direction. I'm sorry, but guess what...there are plenty of you non-Christian sick pervs too! Maybe even some of you writing right now that would just LOVE to justify your sins (and yes SIN does exist and YES if you don't repent, you are destined for hell) so you can make an excuse to keep on sinning! Clarification HEAR TO BOTH THE CHRISTIAN AND NON-CHRISTIAN. SIN EXISTS AND GOD IS THE JUDGE. Romans 3 says that ALL people don't seek God from their own heart without God being able to call us. So here is the fact - this man (whether a Christian or a fake) must repent from his sin just like you non-Christians ought to repent from yours. True, there are consequences in this world for sin and I'm sure the pastor is paying his dues for it, but if this pastor and the 16 yo girl are TRULY repentive and are not putting on a show of hypocrisy...if in their heart of hearts they want to be restored to God - GOD WILL FORGIVE THEM BOTH and THEY WILL BE IN HEAVEN. On the contrary, YOU who use excuses to attack other sinners (Christian or non-Christian) and use these excuses to pretend there is no God, sin, heaven, hell, or Satan are on for a BIG surprise on judgement day. Because instead of seeking God and His ways and SEEKING JESUS' WAYS with all your heart, you rather mock God and pretend there is no consequences. The sad thing for you is that now YOU guys are the Pharisees of modern society and will PAY FOR EACH COMMENT before and after that you make that offends God and His Son unless you get on your knees, ask forgiveness for your sins - remember, I didn't say that this man is not guilty - I said that he has a better chance of going to heaven because chances are, if he is a Christian and has repented or if he is a man who wasn't a real Christian and then changes his life from this experience, he will be enjoying eternal life while you blasphemers will be burning in hell for eternity and beyond (UNLESS YOU REPENT - then you will also have eternal life also). Yes there is hope if your heart is sincere to change as much as if this pastor repents and is willing to change, but the truth is that whether you attack the pastor, the 16yo, all Christians, any human being, any religious creed that exists, or any one else - IT WILL NOT CHANGE YOUR DESTINY IN HELL - the only thing that will change YOUR DESTINY - is putting to death your old ways, asking Jesus to be ruler of your life each new day, and submitting your life to Him... Lord willing, I hope there is hope for you because I would prefer none of you suffer this...but fact is fact...although God is a loving God, He is also a Just God and HE WILL NOT HESITATE TO GIVE THE ETERNAL DEATH SENTANCE...and once we're dead, remember, there is no going back on our earthly choices...TWO DESTINATIONS...TWO CHOICES...CHANGE WHILE IT IS STILL POSSIBLE... Hoping to see you in the heavens...I know I will be there...how about you?

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

boomSLANG — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 20:25:00 -0000

Angry Anony said: This goes out to all you hypocritical ass holes who are bashing Don.

Um, we aren't the one's claiming we have an invisible Holy man-spirit living in our hearts---one who is "guiding us". So really, you need to revisit your definition of "hypocrite", Sparky.

Anon continued: He is a sinner. And so am I , and so are all of you

There's no such thing as a "sin". If you are talking about what is ethical, based on what society as a whole dictates....this, along with the "Golden Rule"..i.e.. the "humanity rule"..then that's different. There is no "sin", however.

If you disagree, Anony... then is it ALWAYS a "sin" to lie? Is abortion a "sin"?(Hint: Use your brain before you fly-off at the mouth)

Anony bellowed: So just drop all the "I will use this pastor's mistake to disprove christianity" crap.

Christians do a fine job of disproving Christianity themselves. Right, "ass hole"?

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Anonymous — Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:05:00 -0000

This goes out to all you hypocritical ass holes who are bashing Don. He is a sinner. And so am I , and so are all of you. So just drop all the "I will use this pastor's mistake to disprove christianity" crap.

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Anonymous — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 20:43:00 -0000

And so to webmaster, If you are interested in talking with me, and please trust me when I say that I do not wish to argue with you, only to listen, then I would appriciate a reply, and perhaps we can converse outside of this public fourm

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Anonymous — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:01:00 -0000

I apologize for not responding as quickly as you would have hoped blade runner, but I have been busy, you know life and stuff... Once again, sorry for my off topic posts, but I would also like to point out that about 90% of the posts on this fourm are off topic, everything from Jesus (not mentioned in the article) to serial killers... quite an impressive range - and all not mentioned in the article (correct me if I am wrong)
And to Bladerunner, this "small talk" is actually me trying to get to know webmaster apart from his cynical and admittedly often hilarious comments. Question my sincerity or whatever, but I want to know what is behind his thoughts, and I beg your pardon if this is the only channel of communication that I have right now, so as much as I appriciate you butting in, I would prefer not to start a fruitless and sophmoric argument with you.

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Blade-Runner — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 07:17:00 -0000

As well, the WM's post did not receive a reply as well. Again, makes one wonder about the sincerity of making small talk, totally off topic - continuously.

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Blade-Runner — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 07:14:00 -0000

Well, another obfuscation operation. Posts create a separation from the last cogent statements from boomSLANG and Blade-Runner...

There has been no response to either post, so... separate and disengage is the tactic of those making off topic posts... cute.

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

.:webmaster:. — Tue, 09 Jan 2007 06:50:00 -0000

I am not a piano player.

However, what has any of this to do with a the story posted here about a pastor boffing a teen girl in his congregation?

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Anonymous — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:12:00 -0000

Pardon my mistake, I went back and am listening to her CD right now, beautiful voice... wow,and a great range on Ava Maria. Admittedly I had not listened too far in to any of the songs on my first visit. If I had heard the singing I would not have made the mistake, my apologies. You are a piano player though, do you mostly do jazz?

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

.:webmaster:. — Sun, 07 Jan 2007 17:20:00 -0000

Anony,

My daughter is the singer, not the pianist.

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Anonymous — Sun, 07 Jan 2007 16:23:00 -0000

so webmaster, I checked out you profile, I really think we can be friends, theological junk aside, I was impressed with your daughter's CD, she seems to be quite the piano player... congratulations

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

.:webmaster:. — Sun, 07 Jan 2007 08:54:00 -0000

Anony said: And to answer your question, the Church gave me the authority to "be its spokesman"... who are you to say that it didn't?

Wow, that's impressive. I wonder if the Pope is aware of this. And the leaders of all the thousands of competing Protestant, Orthodox, Baptist, Charismatic and Pentecostal I hope denominations agreed on this decision too? This is history! I feel so honored to make your cyber-acquaintance!

Anony: And are you the designated spokesperson for all sarcastic athiests?

No, I've never pretended to be. I'm the designated spokesperson for myself. Everyone else that posts here speaks for only themselves. There is considerable agreement between many of us on some things and marked disagreement on others. The one unifying idea underlying the faithful participants on this site is that Christianity is bunk.

I hope that answers your inquiries and thank you for writing in.

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Anonymous — Sun, 07 Jan 2007 00:45:00 -0000

And to answer your question, the Church gave me the authority to "be its spokesman"... who are you to say that it didn't ?

And are you the designated spokesperson for all sarcastic athiests? Because if so I would like to be friends. No repenting or conversion... promise

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Anonymous — Sun, 07 Jan 2007 00:26:00 -0000

I appriciate your humor, honestly... that was funny

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

.:webmaster:. — Sun, 07 Jan 2007 00:00:00 -0000

On behalf of the church?

Are you the designated spokesman for all of Christendom? I would guess the answer to that is no.

To the anonymous who thinks that people who think Christianity is bunk and who are sick and tired of hearing preaching are angry -- stuff it.

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Anonymous — Sat, 06 Jan 2007 23:52:00 -0000

If leaving Christianity is so freeing, why are you all so angry?

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Anonymous — Sat, 06 Jan 2007 23:49:00 -0000

On behalf of the church I apologize to you all who have been wronged by Christians

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

boomSLANG — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 18:14:00 -0000

Zach: I'm not exactly sure if I understand you correctly, but it sounds like you are saying that you neither believe or disbelief that Jesus was a "supernatural" being. If I am correct in my assumption, it seems almost though you are contradicting all of your previous statements.

However, you are not correct in your "assumption". And what makes discussions like these aggrevating, is that you appear to be willfully "misunderstanding".

Okay, to clarify for you, what I'm saying is that, firstly, the lack of belief in something is not a "belief". I say this in reference to your original statement that ex-Christians should "test their beliefs". If I were to ask you, Zach... "Hey Zach, do you believe in zombies?" Surely, you wouldn't answer me with "Why yes, boomSLANG...I do believe zombies don't exist." Uuh, no... you would probably just say "No, I don't believe in zombies, boomSLANG".

(yet interstingly, if one believes the bible as "Truth", then one must believe in zombies...i.e.."living" dead people).

Secondly, about "neutrality". Zach, it cannot be known with absolute certainty that a "God" doesn't exist somewhere in the stretches of the unknown universe---but wait, don't ejaculate quite yet.....no, because likewise, at the present time, it cannot be known with absolute certainty that a race of purple hamsters don't live deep in the center of Uranus, and from there, they control the Universe.

The point being---I lack absolute knowledge on the non-existance of "deities", just like you lack absolute knowledge that "deities" exist. And UNTIL it can be known, absolutely, I merely say I hold a position of "neutrality", as that is the most honest position to take. A position of "Faith" is to "hope" something true, in lack of knowledge. So, that's not so "honest". To make it more clear, Zach, and other defenders of the "faith"---no one is saying that "God" is disproven, only that "God" is UNproven. Please learn the difference. Thanks.

I simply meant that I feel that everyone, Christian or not, should not be allowed to live their lives without questioning their own beliefs.

I just went over how non-belief isn't a "belief", above.......but, um, "should not be allowed" to live our lives? Interesting, but not too shocking choice of words, coming from the dictatorial "one-size-fits-all" Christian mindset. In other words, we should be forced to examine the Christian worldview until we see it as "Truth"...or else, not be allowed to live our lives. Aww, that's adORable.

I feel Christians should not just accept all of the ideas of the Bible like they are being spoonfed. I also believe that non-Christians are making a mistake if they blindly reject Christ without clearly thinking and digging through the issues. You may disagree with me there.

Making crass assumptions, are we? Are you, Zach, "blindly rejecting" Allah, because you don't hold a belief in such a being? How about Spiderman? How do you "know" for certain that Spiderman isn't turning a bad guy into a cocoon right this second? I mean, you're not "blindly rejecting" Spiderman, are you? Did you thoroughly "dig through" all the "issues"?.....every last comic book? Tisk, tisk.

Christianity is not a religion of guilt or fear, so I am sorry that it failed you so badly.

Zach, I'm not usually even this diplomatic, so don't patronize me, or we won't get along, 'm kay??? Thanks. And you're NOT "sorry" that your religion "failed" me, no, you're sorry that there exists people, a lot of people, who don't want to BE members of your cult, and who reject it's teachings---and since we know more now than we did 2000 years ago---this leans closer to the likelyhood that your "belief" is invalid, thereby, lessening your chances of immortality. THAT is what it's all about, Zach..."going to heaven"---that's the one and only reason you can reconcile such rubbish.....your "reward".

What Christ teaches is love and acceptance, and not condemnation or rejection.

Yes, "love and acceptance", but if it's not reciprocated?... you get incinerated in the bowels of "hell". Yessss Sirrrr--nothing says "I love you" like the smell of 8 trillion "souls" on the grill. Zach?... your belief is absurdly barbaric, and it is the antithesis of "love". I hope that you wake up someday.

I just believe that God has a place in every humans heart (for lack of a better word), and unless that person allows God in, there will always be that gap.

I agree, the word "heart" is a bit lacking, because we know that the human heart is mostly H2O and muscle. Look, we cannot have a serious discussion about "God" if you insist on speaking metaphorically. So then, it begs the question---where IS "God", Zach?..other than "inside" your head? There's a Nobel Prize waiting for you, or any of your church-mates, for providing evidence that "God" exists anywhere outside your "brains". Anxiously waiting.

boomSLANG.

Re: Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl - ExChristian.Net - News and Opinion

Blade-Runner — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 12:33:00 -0000

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "Blade-Runner, as for the children thing you need to read the verses around the verse you select to prove a point."

Oh, read in context of the picture being presented, and... that means reading the "whole" bible, right?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM:
"Jesus wasn't talking about knowledge he was talking about humbleness..."

"Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:4 Therefore anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdonm of Heavan."

It doesn't say stupid, or without knowledge, or lack of knowledge but instead it says humble. For the other verses it's the same thing. It's not saying be without knowledge and enter, it's saying be humble like a child."

Blade-Runner: So, "all" childish things to include humbleness should be kept with humility, so that one can enter into the gates of heaven...

1 Corinthians 13:11 - "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Uh, pardon, I don't see humbleness or meekness as one of the "top" three on the list of the greatest. So, when I read, put away childish things, that means humbleness and meekness are of those things that one should mature from - a direct opposite of what is proposed in Matthew.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Since we are on knowledge, can you help me with these two verses, and give me the "real" contextual meaning, thanks.

Genesis 1:29 - "Behold, I have given your every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree ... to you it shall be for meat."

Genesis 2:17 - "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it."

Seems to be an opposite.

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Blade-Runner: "God showed up, after they had taken a bite from the fruit, not before."

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "No, read the bible if you want to try and prove a point about the bible. Don't just read selected verses."

Genesis 2:15-17 "The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and care for it. But the Lord God gave him this warning:'You may freely eat any fruit into the garden except fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die."

This was before the apple and it clearly states that God commanded Adam. How could He command him unless He had direct contact with Adam. Clearly God was with them."

Blade-Runner: Okay, in my analogy, I clearly showed that the parent gave up the special bottle of milk. And, yes, at that time there was contact. Then, I clearly stated the parent/god in this case pulled away to see how the test would go. Clearly, your god didn't oversee Adam nor Eve the day Eve took the bite of the apple. Any parent who would know the eternal consequences of their creation/infant/being would likely make sure their child was "cared for". Where was your "god", when all of humanity was about to be "damned" to "hell" for all eternity, per the Christian tradition. That, unwatching parent in society would be sent to jail for child abuse - but your "god" somehow escapes without a scratch - I find that alarming.

And, now that you have pulled up Genesis, may I provide you with an opposite.

Genesis 2:15-17 - "The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and care for it. But the Lord God gave him this warning:'You may freely eat any fruit into the garden except fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die."

So, in theory Adam dies, if he eats of the fruit - I mean, if he doesn't, then god is a liar, a manipulator per se, and those would be the characteristics of something a little on the "shady" side... right.

Adam eats from the tree, yet lives another 930 years.

Genesis 3:6 - "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food ... she took of the fruit therof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Genesis 5:5 - "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

Okay, first of all, in Chapter Three, Adam ate the Fruit, and then we go on for a long time, until Chapter "5", where god finally says, he dies at the age of 930. He obviously, wasn't killed immediately after he ate, or Genesis 3:7, would state, "and they died". That didn't happen; Adam lived a long nice life.

This is another "opposite".

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Blade-Runner: "By the way, Eve is evil/yin and Adam is good/yang, just another opposite"

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "No, Adam also took a bite out of the apple and was as just as guilty."

Evil/Eve, seduced Good/Adam, in this analogy, there anonymous. And, your god placed "evil", in the garden, you know - the serpent. He did this on purpose, knowing the result.

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "Genesis 3:6 "The woman was convinced. The fruit lookes so fresh and delicious, and it would make her so wise! So she ate some of the fruit. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her. Then he ate it, too."

It's clear here that there is no yin/yang of good and evil between Adam and Eve. They both took a bite of the apple."

God was both good & evil, per your bible, and Isaiah. Your god sent evil into the garden. Your god created Adam who was in his image, in theory - good. Then Eve was created, to tempt Adam. The serpent tempted Eve, and Eve tempted Adam.

In this biblical scenario, there is the opposites of your god's good and evil, the good of Adam being corrupted by Evil/Eve, and the good of Eve being corrupted by Evil/serpent. This was all about opposites. At the point that Adam had not partaken of the fruit, he was still uncorrupted, thus Evil/Eve and Good/Adam still existed in the garden.

Obviously, humanity can be seduced, because humanity comes from a god who possesses both, good and evil traits. You do believe that humanity was built in "god's" image - right. Therefore, mankind is not only exactly as your god planned them to be, the bible suggest that mankind is an "image" of god - per the quote of Isaiah. We have the ability to be both good & evil.

Therefore, god created humanity "exactly" as he planned. Now, again, back in the Old Testament, it was okay to be a little "evil", I mean, god was, why not his creation that was in his image. It was okay, because humanity naturally represented god, and why would god punish mankind for all eternity for being like them? God wouldn't, hence, there is no "hell" in the Old Testament.

Yes, yes, yes, Hell finally came around in the New Testament. Just another "opposite", in the Old Testament, no hell, in the New Testament hell. Point is, that was not the original god's plan in the Old Testament, and the god of the Old Testament, was much different than the god of the New Testament.

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "God didn't leave us to go to hell, if he did why would there be an old testament. There would be no reason for one, all that would be needed is the new testament but if you look at a bible you'll notice there's an old and a new testament."

:-) Yes, after a few years of University studies, I do in fact realize there is both the Old and New Covenant. In the Old Testament, there was no "hell", however, only the Jewish would reign and benefit in the New Kingdom. The "gentiles" would not be part of the New Kingdom, actually, in the Old Testament, all "gentiles" would become Jewish when the "true" Messiah arrived and brought in their New Kingdom, per the Old Testament Prophesies.

The Old Testament prophesy, was "never" fulfilled, Jesus failed just about "every" test there was, the greatest being... the Jews are "NOT" living in their New Kingdom, yet Jesus was supposed to bring about that prophesy. I would not call Hitler their travel and vacation agent in their paradise in the past years.

The "only" reason there is a "new testament" is because Constantine I, ordered the Roman Clergy to collect articles and books that were being circulated at the time, and canonize them. They did so, by vote, yes... they voted on which books they would put into the New Testament, and they voted on whether or not Jesus was the "true" Jewish Messiah. Notice, the Jews did not vote... The Roman Catholic Church voted. Hell, was brought into the picture, because of that vote on the books, and Jesus was voted as the savior for anyone who followed the state religion - else, they were to be executed.

Per the Old Testament, god held dominion of "all”… that - included "all"... In the New Testament, god held dominion over heaven, and sub-contracted hell out to Satan - so he could be landlord.

So, you are partially right... The god of the Old Testament, the Jewish god, didn't leave us to go to hell... Hell didn't exist, and god held dominion over "all". It's the god of the New Testament that gets credit for creating "hell" - the god of Christ.

The only reason you have an old testament, is because the Jews who knew their commandments and their covenant and promise to their god, believed they would be punished if they didn't follow their covenant given to them by their "god" (their belief). Thus, the Roman Emperor who ordered the creation of the New Testament, ensured the Old Testament would remain in order to bring about a buy-in from the Jews, and to convince them that the "saved" was not only going to be them, but... "all" humanity could be saved from hell.

Uh, hate to reiterate here... but, the Jews didn't have a "hell", what were they going to be saved from? Nothing.

Hence, why the Jews were persecuted, they didn't buy Jesus as the Messiah, and they didn't buy Jesus bringing in "hell", and they didn't buy this god was theirs, because their god didn't have a need to "change his mind" - their god was "omniscient".

In short, the Jews believed that their god didn't make mistakes, and sending Jesus was like saying... hey folks, kinda' made a boo boo, I'm going to send my son, to be tortured because I was incompetent, and then he's going to come back here... and then we'll try it all over again... Because, you are no longer the truly "favored", I screwed up, I know, I know, I am omniscient, but I didn't realize that you were going to tick me off so bad, that I would shun you and start a sequel to your religion - The New Jews (Part II).

Blade-Runner: "…because he obviously didn't believe the god of the Old Testament was either "capable" or "willing"."

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "Show me where it's obvious that Jesus didn't believe God was capable."

That was a choice for you to make. Let me make it easier. Jesus was tortured, and murdered "deliberately", by his god father. Again, god gets all the credit, god is all, and all is god, god is omniscient, per your bible.

So, Jesus as he finds himself stuck to a piece of wood, with iron spikes, has to think about why he was murdered by his father... here are the options, and you can add a few if you like.

1) God just couldn't absolve humanity from sin, he wasn't capable.
2) God just couldn't absolve humanity from sin, he didn't care.
3) God just couldn't absolve humanity from sin, he enjoyed watching his son get tortured.

Hey, why don't you throw in your choices, why the god who created evil, and was evil himself, sent his son to earth to be brutally tortured and murdered. Now, this god, you realize can change anything, and he "knew" before Jesus was tortured, he would be tortured, yet, he had the power to absolve mankind.

Now, some other religions get cute, later on and attempt to create their own "gap" fillers with their own documentation... The War of the Heavens was one such additional doctrine that portrayed a "reason" why Jesus was come to pay the price...

Read: "Milton's Paradise Lost"

It goes something like; Jesus was a real son of God in heaven. Jesus and Lucifer got into a favor contest in heaven (pride), Lucifer had plans on how to create humanity, yet, god favored Jesus. Satan rebelled, and was cast out, with 1/3 of the angels in heaven. Jesus, thus, got the job as chief architect for creating humanity. He created, and screwed it up, thus, God sent him to earth, to be tortured for his boo boo.

Now, we are talking about heaven, sinless, and perfect. A place where Satan began his career in evil, and a place where a god allowed evil to exist. There also existed pride in heaven, and contempt. Jesus was also able to "screw up", humanity, yet he was perfect, and his father allowed him to screw up, because god wasn't perfect.

If you accept god as not-perfect, everything is possible, all of these events. If you accept your god as perfect, then... he deliberately tortured his own son, by standing by and "omnisciently" allowing it to happen. Once again, if your god, is the "god of all", your god is "responsible" for all. What your god uses as a tutorial to teach humanity, and his own son, is considered abusive, abhorrent, and sheer evil.

Evil, is a tool your god wields quite well.

Psalm 137:9 - "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Care to explain.

Psalm 139:22 - "I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies."

Perfect "hatred". Uh, that would be a "hatred" fit for a perfect "god".

See the opposite, a loving god, with perfect hatred, hmmmmm.

And, while I'm on the subject, and you really haven't answered the questions posed to this point... I'll give you the verses that show that your "god", did in fact create hell and predestination; he knows all, and those who will abide in hell - ready.

Proverbs 16:4 - "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

He "made" the wicked, for the day of evil/hell. Hope that helps clear it up, your "god", is the creator of "evil" - for his "pleasure".

John 12:40 - "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Thus, your god, deliberately placed humanity into a position of blindness. Uh, there goes Jesus being blamed in Milton's Paradise Lost. Your "god", is the one to blame for hardening, and Jesus is thus nothing but a scapegoat for god.

Romans 9:18 - "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

Thus, god hardeneth those whom he will and did.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 - "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."

God gets busy, even after he damns people to hell, and knows who is damned, he sets about the task of damning even more people.

Blade-Runner: "I'd say you should pray to your god on this, but he doesn't respect you enough to answer your prayers."

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "The verses you used came from an old english bible. Language back then was much differeent than language today. Words that meant certain things then mean different things now.

If you read a modern version or a version translated from greek you'll find that it's not saying that God doesn't respect people but instead that God doesn't show favoritism."

Uh, so the bible isn't perfect because it's been mistranslated? Okay.

Blade-Runner: "Then God sent an evil spirit"

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "Sent being a key word in all these verses as well as from. God has every right to hand us over to the devil and destroy us all."

So, you have every right to have a child, knowing you are going to rip its guts out, because you are the creator... Uh, you're a sick... Well, you fill in the blank.

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "But he chose not to because he loves us. What God did wasn't evil, it doesn't say that the God was in any way evil."

Are you delusional, all of the verses that I have posted, say your god is evil. I have posted numerous acts that are despicable that only an "evil" god would even consider doing... Your god killed every living animal on the earth, basically torture, because he wanted to "cleanse" the earth of humanity... God is all powerful, yet, he chose this method of torture, to get the job done - great.

And, per your bible, and the verses I posted, he knows and has "deliberately" engaged in damning people. Read your bible.

Blade-Runner: "Jesus came to abolish the law and commandments given by the Jewish God El."

You already disproved yourself on this one. You also said Paul detested the laws. Show me where.

I am correct on both accounts. Jesus showed up, to save "all" of humanity, per the Christian tradition. That means, he had to close out the Old Testament prophesy, and I asked you if you wanted me to show you where he failed in that respect. Nonetheless, Jesus by his very presence can to "abolish", by "closing out" the Old Testament by fulfillment of the Old Testament Prophesy. Are you going to deny that you don't believe in the crucifixion?

As well, Paul taught against the laws of the Jews. He is attributed with posting fourteen epistles, which lay the foundation for "Christianity"... Note... "Christianity"... Not the Judaism that he was preaching "against". Remember, the Jews didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah, because Jesus failed all of the prophesies they were given by their god/authors.

Regarding Paul, who preached against, the Laws of the Old Covenant by becoming the "author" for fourteen epistles of the New Testament, read;

In the order they appear in the New Testament, the Pauline epistles are:

-Romans
-First Corinthians
-Second Corinthians
-Galatians
-Ephesians (*)
-Philippians
-Colossians (*)
-First Thessalonians
-Second Thessalonians (*)
-First Timothy (*)
-Second Timothy (*)
-Titus (*)
-Philemon
-Hebrews (*)-or- (Anonymous)

Paul, had much to say about the Old Testament, what it was missing, and what needed to "change". Paul is typically given the role as the "first" Christian - thus removing Judaism as the dominant belief system.

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "Please do show me where Jesus didn't fulfill."

Thought you would never ask :-)... I don't want to overkill this post, so I will bring up four first, and then... if you want... then I can continue to add. By the way... if "one" of these prophesies never came to pass... then Jesus was not the Messiah. And, by the way, while we are at bible study... can you provide the verse where "Jesus" himself says he's the "Messiah", come to bring in the Jewish New Kingdom... I can assure you, your inability to find such a verse, isn't the result of a "translation" error... Let's continue though...

Jewish Messiah, Test One:
Ezekiel 37:26-28: Build the Third Temple

26: Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of THEM for evermore.
27: My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28: And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.

Israel, Sanctuary/Temple, Forevermore... Is there some Hidden temple sitting around we just haven't heard about that the Jews are secretly hording, oh, that can't be, because GOD himself said that the heathen would know... The heathen is "you", and "I", and all non-Jews, are "you" aware of the exact location of a third temple? No, I thought not. But, the Second Temple Fell ~70CE, at the hands of the Roman Army... Where is this "third temple"... if no temple, then, Jesus was not the Messiah...

Jewish Messiah, Test Two:
Isaiah 43:5-6: Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel

5: Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6: I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

The Jewry was spread out all over the place, an historical fact... especially during the crusades... Israel was supposed to be brought back together... That hasn't happened... Not in the time that Jesus was reported to be a Prophet by Christian Authority... And, the Jews are not "together" even to this day.

Jewish Messiah, Test Three:
Isaiah 2:4: Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore."

4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Do you know of a time, where there hasn't been war, I mean, since the beginning of written history... Or, since Jesus was said to have lived?

Jewish Messiah, Test Four:
Zechariah 14:9: Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel - uniting the entire human race as one: "God will be King over all the world--on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One"

9: And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10: All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11: And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12: And this shall be the plague wherewith The Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

18: And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19: This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20: In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, holiness unto the Lord; and the pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.

21: Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of Hosts.

Do you know a time in human history where everyone and Every Nation was worshipping the Exact same God, and had Equal knowledge... Furthermore, do you know of a time, when the Heathen and Canaanites were "struck down" with a curse that caused the Indiana Jonesesque scene where the Heathen or Any Other Nation not Worshipping under the Jewish God of Israel, had their Eyes, Flesh, and Tongue burst into Fire... Did we miss something when Jesus came down... or perhaps, Jesus wan not the Jewish Messiah...

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "No where did I state that God didn't know that Eve would sin."

Okay, then your god is responsible for everything we do. We are doing exactly everything as god has planned - that includes going to hell - predestined. Because we have no idea of our next choice in life, doesn't mean he didn't create us knowing our choice. Thus, his "free will" dominates us, and he has created us with his dominant "free will". We can be surprised all we want at our decisions, and possibilities, yet, we are "destined" to either heaven or hell, we are destined to make certain choices, like me being here and you being there... we are exactly as god planned and created us to be. Why would it be different, your god, is a "god". Thus, there is no accepting and not accepting your god, he has created us to either not accept or to accept him.

Blade-runner: "your god created Eve without having a plan - and then your god is irresponsible."

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "God did have a plan, that plan was Jesus Christ."

Actually, per the previous statement, Jesus wasn't the answer. Again, show me where Jesus himself says he is the Jewish Messiah, that is required to "close out" the Old Testament prophesy. Good luck... ever wonder why there are "still" Jews in the world, and they only follow the Old Testament?

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "How many times do we need to go over this? God knew it would happen that doesn't mean he planned it to happen. If I know something is going to happen that doesn't mean I plan for that something to happen."

Planned, or knew, your god is responsible as the creator for it "all". If you throw a ball, do you blame the ball for flying through the air? If you train a pet to bite, do you blame the pet, or the owner who "planned" to "create" a biting dog?

God "planned" our creation, and thus, "knew" the outcomes for all of our decisions, because the bible says he's omniscient... or, your god "didn't" plan our creation, and thus we are randomly living life, and he has no idea of the outcome.

Let's put it another way. If you plan on creating a baseball bat to play baseball, and then you create a baseball bat to hit a ball, and then you hit a baseball with the bat; did you not "plan", "create", and foresee everything that you envisioned for your baseball bat? Yes, you can't be that blind.

Therefore, all I am suggesting, is that your "god", created us by planning, he created us for a particular purpose, and we are engaged in that process of his "making"... we are exactly as he created us to be. How is someone able to make a baseball bat, and claim to plan, create, and use... and you can't see how your very own "god", can do it... Simply amazing...