DISQUS

JT (Former Christian and bible · 3 years ago

Wait a second guys! Maybe this Pastor was not truly saved! Maybe was just faking it. Maybe he didn't know the true Jesus. Just maybe. LOL

Onanite · 3 years ago

These guys are all over the place. I report on them daily. Seems like if you're a pastor you just automatically have sex with your under age parishioners.

Onanite

Bentley · 3 years ago

And God sent an angel to inseminate a virgin and his name was Emanual the Christ Saviour!

Blessed be those that inseminate virgins. Amen!!

ChristiaNazi · 3 years ago

Shameless! The old troll should have stuck with pastorbation.

Click here for a definition

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Awww, c'mon, he was just trying to live by god's words from Genesis 1:27-28,

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the Earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the Earth"

He took literally the "Be fruitful and multiply", "subdue" and "have dominion over every living thing" in the scripture. That, or course, includes underage girls in his church. He most likely thought he was blessed by god to do so.

infidel666 · 3 years ago

He will be replaced with another who will do the same thing. I think it's genetic. They become Ministers so they can get close to children.

sailerfraud · 3 years ago

Colorado is truly a messed up place. So many right-wing males who had trouble dealing with females all their lives and resorting to sexual abuse and murder.

Serial killers like Ted Bundy and Charles Browne.
Jon Benet Ramsey raped and murdered.
Columbine high school massacre.
Countless pastors busted for sexual abuse (Ted Haggard, now this guy).

http://sailerfraud.blogspot.com/2006/11/colorado-land-of-heinous-right-wing.html

Anonymous · 3 years ago

I am a very close friend of the girl and Don Ryan was a mentor to me.
Please, watch what you say. Just because you do not share the same beliefs does not give you the right to be insensitive toward all those involved.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

He who is without sin cast the 1st stone.

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

To Anonymous who posted at 4:15PM…so you are defending Mr. Ryan, is that correct? And you see nothing untoward about his abusing this young girl?
Why, exactly, should WE watch what WE say? Since by your admission you knew them both, what did YOU say, to either defend the girl in question, or to turn Pastor Ryan away from committing, not just a sin, but a crime? Is silence the best way to approach a problem such as this? Since those of us who read the story and ARE appalled that this guy took such liberties with his position, you think we have no right to voice an opinion here, on this website? You sound like you have no backbone and you deal with hard issues in your life by hiding under a rock. I frankly don’t give a damn if that sounds insensitive!
And to the sanctimonious Anony-jerk who posted at 12:25 AM and thinks quoting a scripture passage on an Ex-Christian website somehow carries some weight. Let me guess, since you want to believe in sin, which is only mentioned in the bible, everybody automatically has it and that gets your grand Pator Ryan off the hook. He won’t get stoned to death (which he might deserve, based on what he admitted!) since we’re all “sinners”.
You two cretinous Anony-cowards seem hell-bent on getting Pastor Ryan the lightest sentence possible, if not have the charges dropped outright. Then you can attack the real criminal perpetrator in this story, the young 16 year old girl who was leading this nice Pastor astray. I’m sure there is a way to work “satan in to explanation if you scrounge through the pages of your bible and cherry pick verses that show young girls leading men astray using the wiles of Ol’ Lucifer.

Enigma · 3 years ago

Okay, I cast a stone... and another, and another... lets throw a boulder, because there is no such thing as a "god" or a "sin", or a "god-sin", or "godsend", etc., etc.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Actually, all the Christians I know expect the pastor to suffer the consequences of his actions. However, a true Christian is called to love the victims, the perpetrator, and everyone posting on this site. If we are to love the pastor, then he needs to be punished AND counseled. Of course, the victims of his actions include the girl, her family, the community of kids and adults at the church, the pastors family, and to some degree everyone and anyone who was hurt on any level by his actions. All of these victims need to be supported, counseled, and loved.
I understand that we are all frustrated and somewhat angry that a Christian or anyone could have done this. We Christians are no better people than non-Christians. We get divorced as often, have affairs as often, lie as often, etc., which is why the really judgemental Christians like Ted Haggart and others frustrate the hell out of me just as much as they do non-Christians.
As Christians, we have chosen to engage in the battle-where the enemy and God meet-and that's a scary place to be. Whether you believe in Christ or not, you may still agree that there does seem to be good and evil in the world. We all struggle with that every day. Christians and non-Christians alike engage in evil everyday. Whether it's judgement, gossip, affairs or murder, it's not the best thing for any of us.
It seems to me that the easier thing to do is believe there is no God, believe there is no evil, and not engage in the REAL battle at all.
The founders of this site seem to be determined to do just that.
Understandibly, you are battling and arguing against the bad things Christians have done that you have seen in the media or witnessed personally. Judging ALL Christians for the actions of a few (or even many) would be like me judging all non-Christians every time one of you did something stupid. I am the first to say that many of the jerks I know claim to be religious-and the jerk Christians are the most frustrating to me. I am frustrated by jerks in general-religious or NOT.
If we all tried to live the way of Christ-which would mean first and foremost, above all else, love one another and ourselves as Jesus loved us, the world would be a better place for all-Christian or not.
If we were all willing to die for one another because we loved each other so much-what a world THAT would be!
God bless you all, and
Cheers!
(Feel free to visit MY blog-dannystratford.blogspot.com)

boomSLANG · 3 years ago

It seems to me that the easier thing to do is believe there is no God, believe there is no evil, and not engage in the REAL battle at all.

A couple of things---firstly, "evil" is simply doing unnecessary harm to others, or in some cases, even yourself. "Evil" is a by-product of fear, and usually comes from the inside, out. It doesn't come from some "big bad" entity in a red suit and a pitchfork. Moreover, it seems that people can't even agree on what is "good", and what is "evil"---and this definitely includes Christians. Again, this is because the bible's "one size fits all" mentality doesn't work across the board. It never has; it never will. To a head hunter, chopping people's heads off is "good"; to a cannibal, eating human flesh is "good". To an Angolian, a clitorectomy is "good", because pre-teen sex is "evil". To a Catholic, using a spermacide is "mass murder", therefore, "evil"; to a liberal Christian, birth control is "good". You see?...this blatant subjectivity is due to the fact that all religious dogma, along with cultural relativity, is just that---totally subjective. Religionists like to ignore these facts, as they like to pretend that the religion/sect that they subscribe to, delineates the objective "truth" on what is "right" and "wrong"/"good and "evil", this, for all societies and cultures. It is THIS erroneous "idea" that causes the "battles" and the divisivness.

Next, the assertion that not believing in God and it's "fringe benefits" is "easier" than not believing in God, and therefore, NOT getting such "benefits", is self-evidently, absurd. Just because I believe that I will cease to exist when I die, doesn't mean I'm totally thrilled about it. Moreover, what sounds "easier" to believe?...the former?..or the notion that I will never die, and at death, be granted a "pass" to float around with my dead friends and family members for eternity without a care in the world? What sounds "easier", being responsible for my own actions?...or blaming some "big bad ghost" for my short comings? What sounds "easier", saying "God did it", or taking the time to objectively search for truth, and living with these results, even if they make me uncomfortable? Gee, I wonder.

Dano · 3 years ago

The problem with trying to love everybody Danny Meboy, is that it just doesn't work and it is unnatural and goes against the way God made us. If you embrace the theory that you should love everybody, you are going to go through life as a lightweight airhead, and maybe end up in an institution.

The way we are designed by that great intelligent designer in the sky is: Be very aware of those who appear to want to do us harm and keep us from reproducing with the most attractive and successful of the opposite sex. Avoid them as much as possible. Run from them as fast as you can. Wish as many bad things to happen to them as possible, Make as many bad things happen to them as you can. Show them in every way possible that you don't want their company, and don't desire to subject yourself to their ways, that are destructive to you and your clan.

What has worked for billions of years to propel us along and help us evolve into "Thinking Man" is: Gravitate mostly toward those who appear to want to help you be happy, healthy, and to reproduce with the most attractive and successful of the opposite sex. Seek their company, solicit their favor, and join with them in as many activities as possible As they are so fond of saying in "Survivor" Make coalitions with only those people who love you or want to help you, and stay away from the Assholes, and vote em off as soon as you can!
Dano (Jesus was just a Rabbi that talked to much during a Roman holiday)

Bentley · 3 years ago

To Danny,

What's the point of calling yourself a christain, if you're no different than a non-christian?

What's the point of following the words of a preacher, if they themselves are no different than a non-christian and cannot restrain themselves from doing evil?

It's all human invented bullshit and you know it, why don't you for once in your life be honest with yourself, just as we have??

Joe · 3 years ago

These are interesting comments. Perhaps your view of truth causes you to think there is no God. Perhaps your view of truth causes you to think that it religion is man-made. And of course, you are entitle to that. My question is, who is the truth? Jesus is the truth. So, it is your view of Jesus that causes these ideas. And the sooner you refocus your view, you'll see clearly. Take care!

boomSLANG · 3 years ago

Joe asks: "Who is the truth?"

Joe answers(his own question): "Jesus is the truth".

Well everybody, I guess that settles it, doesn't it? Yep, God definitely exists. Holy mackeral.....why didn't the other Christian fundamentalists think of this? It's BRILLIANT, I say!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

Anonymous · 3 years ago

It seems that anger is consuming many of you in your discussion about God. I understand why, nobody has pissed me off in my life more than Christians on a day to day basis.
That being said, whether you think it would work or not, whether you believe in Christ or not, if we ALL truly loved each other first and foremost the world would be a better place.
Is that realistic? Maybe.
It's a good place to start.
I wish most people (Christians or not) felt the same way.
By the way, I don't really like to say I am a Christian, I prefer to say I am living in the way of Christ. That alone does not make me better or worse than anyone else. The difference is simply that I have chosen something different than some other people, and I have faith that it is the right way to live. The hard thing is, is that I will never be able to live up to the way Christ wants me to live. I will be in this battle for the rest of my life.
"Danny myboy" loves all of you-even if you annoy the crap out of me at times with your anger and sarcasm.
I have never loved perfectly, but I am trying real hard.
If I am wrong-if there is no God-if after we die we are nothing but fertilizer, then I would still be proud to say I tried to live a life of hope and loving others, rather than a life of sarcasm and hatred towards my brother and sisters.
Why don't you join me in a rational, anger free discussion on the topic. We are both probably mad at the same types of jerks in the world anyway. Anger is OK-but it's what we do with that anger that can seperate us from those who make us angry, and help us live a productive and loving life.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

By the way, when I say I think it is the "right way to live", I am not trying to diminish YOUR way or say it is wrong. However, if other people's way of living is not rooted in "Love", then it makes my life (and in my opinion, everyone else's) more difficult. I could get killed by someone and become fertilizer tomorrow-but at least I tried to live the way I felt was best.
As far as "evil" goes. Christian or not, we all battle evil every day. I don't think it' some guy with horns (but you never know), but it takes form in our lives. It could take the form of gossip, hypocrasy, hatred, condemnation of others-not just murder and rape.
That's how we battle with it every day.
One more thing-I have not tried to tell you that MY beliefs are the truth-nor have I even mentioned the bible (until this sentence).
They are simply my beliefs. I have yet to meet anyone who agreed with me on all of my beliefs.
Do any of you know of anyone who always agrees with you?

Dano · 3 years ago

To Danny Stratford!
The web master has cited the purpose of this website as:
"This forum exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind. It is not an open challenge to Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their invisible friend"
I am sure the regulars on this site, some of the most grounded, intelligent, logical ex-believers of mythology on earth would love to discuss "God" with you, if you would just flesh out your definition of what "God" is. I have been reading about "God" for some years now, and no one can agree about what it is.

Dano (Who is posting on the correct website, as opposed to those who are here because they want to explain Jesus)

Daniel · 3 years ago

In response to anonymous at 12:25 with the "cast the first stone" bit --

1) We're not Christians, so quoting Scripture to us is like us quoting the Qur'an to you
2) go read a book on the pericope adulterae -- it was an interpolated story. Therefore, John 8 shouldn't be used authoritatively to preach at others. See here.

Danny,

I hope the writing at your blog is not as hopelessly contradictory as this comment:
It seems to me that the easier thing to do is believe there is no God, believe there is no evil, and not engage in the REAL battle at all.
The founders of this site seem to be determined to do just that.

So if the founders of this site don't believe in wrong and right, why would they post pieces outlining the wrongs committed by pastors?

If we all tried to live the way of Christ-which would mean first and foremost, above all else, love one another and ourselves as Jesus loved us, the world would be a better place for all-Christian or not.

The real problem is in defining what it means to "love others". According to Jesus, you had to "hate" your father, mother, brother, sister, etc., by leaving them behind to follow after Jesus -- that is, God supposedly wants us to love our own religion at the expense of our love for each other.

If I am wrong-if there is no God-if after we die we are nothing but fertilizer, then I would still be proud to say I tried to live a life of hope and loving others, rather than a life of sarcasm and hatred towards my brother and sisters.

I am living a life of hope and love. I simply don't place my hope in some eternal bliss in the "sweet by-and-by". I hope for the future of humanity -- progress in science and education to alleviate the pain and suffering and ignorance of the present world. I don't hate Christians, I just think they're wrong.

As far as "evil" goes. Christian or not, we all battle evil every day. I don't think it' some guy with horns (but you never know), but it takes form in our lives. It could take the form of gossip, hypocrasy, hatred, condemnation of others-not just murder and rape.
That's how we battle with it every day.

Well obviously all of us opppose the ill effects of those things as well, but you assumed in your first comment that people here aren't interested in "battling" those things because they don't believe in good and evil, right and wrong. You seem to be confused?

Anonymous · 3 years ago

You know what makes me angry! Self-righteous christians who come here and accuse us of being angry and sarcastic when we fail to kiss their asses. Then they get high and mighty and say things like "I still love you even though you're rude." How patronizing is that!

Look, don't pull the holier-than-thou act when your god-talk fails. That's your problem. Don't put the blame on us. It's only a defense mechanism you use when your fake-loving approach goes nowhere.

I think Dano has it right where he says its impossible to love Everyone. Just love the ones close to you and treat the rest humanely. And get on with the business of living.

My brother reminded me of something George Carlin said in his last comedy special, "Do you know what the secret of life is? Not dying!" I laughed so much at that because of how true it is.

Michelle

Dano · 3 years ago

To Danny Stratford, Daniel, from Dano,
I recognize the fact, also, that hope for something better than this "veil of tears", is probably innate in our makeup, because men would never have had enough courage to go out of the cave and kill something to eat if they didn't believe that drawing a picture of the prospective kill on the cave wall.and grunting something akin to "Our Father...",or "Yea though I walk through the valley of death..., would help"

The most successful hunters, and thus the most prolific progenitors, were probably those who had the imagination to envision that the God of the hunt was looking out for them.

When Man invented civilization, and perfected it, that imagination evolved right along with it. I'm sure the Michelangelo's, and the Galileo's believed in some kind of supreme guiding force

The only thing we Agnostics gain by rejecting mythological belief systems is intellectual integrity, and that is a "beautiful thing."
I know that the longer I embrace it, the more I like myself, and the more that I feel that God likes me.

Just like my ancestors believing that the God of the hunt was on their side, I believe that when I go out amongst the evangelicals, and they repeat their illogical, silly nonsense over and over, God is telling me; "Keep your brain my son, don't give it to them to squander like they have theirs."
DAN, Dano (Agnostic)
Hi Michelle! Glad to see you are still around.

Joe · 3 years ago

As a christian, I believe that Jesus Chrst is the son of God. Futhermore, I believe that I am to live a life that models his, since that's what the Bible teraches. Jesus asked questions then turned right around and answered them, so pointing that out only proves that I attempt to live like Christ so thank you.

Chris · 3 years ago

Hey Warnepiece, you definitely need to chill. First of nobody knew what was going on until Tuesday with the exception of the pastor and the girl.
Plus that was very rude and insensitive considering that the person who posted is probably a high school student who is going through hell right now after finding out that his youth pastor is in jail for having sexual contact with one of his church friends.
I don't know what your problem is, but you don't have any good reason to go out attacking people like that.

boomSLANG · 3 years ago

As a christian, I believe that Jesus Chrst is the son of God.

As a Bigfoot tracker, I believe that Sasqutch is a son-of-a-gun...especially when it comes to being photographed.

Joe, a belief is a belief is a belief...it says nothing about reality.

Futhermore, I believe that I am to live a life that models his, since that's what the Bible teraches.

Oh really?...so then, Joe, do you "hate" your parents? Do you "hate" your own life? Do you keep slaves? Will you let me rape your daughter and then marry her? Do you hang out at Walmart on Sundays stoning the employees who work that day? Joe, I'll bet you adhere to none of this. You are not following what the bible teaches. Joe, you need a better role model.

Jesus asked questions then turned right around and answered them, so pointing that out only proves that I attempt to live like Christ so thank you.

The point is, Joe, if you have all the "answers", why ask questions?

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Chris

Attacking People??? This pastor uses HIS position to basically attack this young girl and you are worried about what I write, here on this website? Are you vaguely familiar with the First Amendment Chris? I wasn’t shouting “fire” in a crowded theatre…
“No one knew what was going on until Tuesday”….so that means my observations about this jerk were baseless?
My comments are considered rude and insensitive, but you apparently don’t think what the pastor did was in any way rude or insensitive. You must be part of Pastor Ryan’s defense team.
Are you saying that poor innocent high school student, as you called them, should be encouraged to hide under a rock when life doles out some hard blows?
Sorry to disappoint you Chris but I have no problem, except with self righteous hypocrites who think it is their job to police websites, looking for language, or observations, they don’t like and then accuse the writer of having a problem, or needing to chill.
I just want to be sure I understand...You, Chris, are defending Pastor Ryan and what he did? And that is why you are upset with what I wrote?

avid reader · 3 years ago

On the flip side!

Could it be that Chris and Pastor Ryan are romantically involed and Chris having found out about his envolvement with the young girl is driving Chris to be insanely jealous?

If the shoe fits, buy it!!

Chris · 3 years ago

I wasn't defending Don Ryan's actions. I just wanted to point out that the person who posted that was probably a high school kid who is disillusioned about a lot of things and hurting that his youth pastor was capable of this kind of action. I did not in any way defend pastor Ryan or his actions so I don't even know where you are getting that from.
So I wasn't defending pastor Ryan, I was defending the anonymous person who posted. I don't see where you get this thing about self righteous policing. I'm not trying to pick a fight, just make a point.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

I knew him, he was my youth pastor at our former church for 5 years. He had a great relationship with his wife, I knew him when all three of his sons were born. I never saw him doing something like this, of course. But in my heart i know he is a good person. He admitted his mistakes and is willing to take his punishment. My heart goes out to the girl and her family, but also Don's. I can't imagine what his wife (Kristin) is going through.

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Chris,

Protect anonymous posters from “disillusionment”.

Self-righteous policing is not self-righteous policing.

Okay, got it!

chrislillpop · 3 years ago

I have to say that I am very sad after hearing the news of Pastor Ryan and Ted Haggard. I have spent the last 2 weeks thinking about these events and God has taught me some things from these situations.
1) Man is weak. We are fallen. Christian or not. I think that this obvious given the news of these two men.
2) God is bigger than sin. I do not know how God will do it but He will supernaturally bring good out of these situations. God is bringing healing to this girl, to Don, and to everyone involved. He is bigger than the sin that is in my life and He is bigger than sin that is in Don's life. God is bigger than sin.

Many of the comments by Christians on this blog are not edifying to God. Getting offended by comments made by people and lashing right back at them is not bringing honor to Jesus. We Christians have a lot to learn and we need to be quiet about things that we don't know about. Jesus did no come to condemn but he came to give abundant life. Why do we so often condemn?? Read John 8 and you will find the way that Jesus deals with the "sinner". Grace softens hard hearts, not condemnation.

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Chrislillpop,

I know you mean well. It is evident in the tone you take.

I am amazed at how often Christians come on this website and think that if they just talk about god or jesus, or suggest a bible verse, that we as EX-Christians will suddenly come to our senses and revert back to being full fledged Christians.

What is it that you think is going to do the trick? Have we not made it clear enough that we have read the bible, we’ve been Christians in every sense that the word connotes, probably longer than you’ve been alive, and we’ve been where you are now in your own faith. We’ve realized after long, careful, and many times painful, consideration, that it is all a bunch of baloney. And that is an insult to baloney.

I am not going to try to convince you that your faith is misplaced or silly. From the things you wrote about in your post, you’ve got bigger issues to deal with, like believing you are fallen, that god will magically create good out of the hypocrisy within the church, and that you are being “taught” something by an invisible being who, I would think, would have more pressing matters to address, like dying and starving children, than to worry about giving you a Sunday school lesson

boomSLANG · 3 years ago

What he's saying:

God is bigger than sin. I do not know how God will do it but He will supernaturally bring good out of these situations. God is bringing healing to this girl, to Don, and to everyone involved. He is bigger than the sin that is in my life and He is bigger than sin that is in Don's life. God is bigger than sin.

What we're hearing:

Gloop is bigger than gleepglop. I do not know how Gloop will do it, but Gloop will magically bring good out of these situations. Gloop is bringing healing to this girl, to Don, and to everyone involved. Gloop is bigger than the gleepglop that is in my life and Gloop is bigger than the gleepglop that is in Don's life. Gloop is bigger than gleepglop.

'Lillpop, in case you missed the point----your theological rhetoric has no referant in reality on this website. Mind you, while we are not all Atheists, we all have concluded that Christianity, along with all it's affiliated catch-words..i.e.."GOD", "Faith", "Truth™, "Trinity", "sin", "soul", "spirit", etc..... is all a bunch of bunk---in other words, no referant in reality. What on earth is a "sin"? What and where, exactly, is a "spirit"? Where is this "Jesus" character right this very second? Where?..in your "heart"?..your cerebellum?..your liver? Where? Oh yeah, once and for all....is this "thing" alive?....or dead?

Waiting.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Warnepiece, et al...

You got it backwards, I was a "Christian" (for lack of a better word), then I was agnostic, then I became a follower of Christ. 6 years ago I was where YOU are, and I would have enjoyed blogging in condescending and provacative ways to moronic Christians. I LOVED making fun of "those idiots"!
I understand where you are coming from-and I don't blame you for feeling the way you do, nor do I think you should believe differently.
I try to be the light in the dark and evil world of Christians.
I probably would rather have a beer with you than most "Christians" I run into.
Having said all of that, I have "Landed" as a follower of Christ. I disagree with the blogger that said Jesus has ANYTHING to do with hatred. Jesus never hated anyone-it doesn't mean he was never angry, just that he never hated.
I may have been a bit too harsh on the writers on the site. You don't necessarily hate just because you are angry, condescending and sarcastic. I can be all three of those things on a regular basis myself (just ask my wife).
I also have NOT quoted the bible at all in my postings-I agree that that makes no sense in this forum.
Also-pointing out someone's hypocrasy or contradictions is a fairly easy thing to do to anyone-if that is your goal. Most of my thoughts run deeper than what I am able to put down in words, and I don't always have time to elaborate. When you take things out of context, hypocrasy shines. Of course NO ONE takes things out of context more than Christians do when it comes to quoting the <a href="mailto:bible!
LOL
dannystratford@blogspot.com">bible!
LOL
dannystratford@blogspot.com

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Job 3:25-26 "What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me. I have no peace, no quietness; I have no rest, but only turmoil."

Dano · 3 years ago

To Danny Stratford!
OK Danny, we agree on most things.
1. Most Christians are very unchristian.
2. We can use Anger, condescension, and sarcasm, without being full of anger.
3. I don't think we should believe differently either.

Here is what I don't agree with you about.
1. If you consider your self a Christian, I don't think you can be "The light in the dark and evil world of Christians"
2. I don't think very many regulars on this site would enjoy sitting around drinking beer with some guy who has a deep relationship with Jesus.

You say Jesus never hated but: Who was it who said? "You gotta hate anyone in your family who don't buy into my story about my coming here as a sacrifice to my father, to atone for your sins." "You gotta love me, and hate anyone who don't!"
That's OK it could have been any of the Jesus' who were running around the Middle east, telling everybody that they were the savior.

Hey! Constantine's "Council" put it in the "Book" so it must be true. Why else would all the sects that were deemed not worthy to be included, like the Gnostics, go into hiding? Because the only true stuff, is the stuff that them Romans put into the book, that why.
Dano (Your friend, and lover of truth)

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Danny Stratford,

You can insist “we’ve got it backwards” until you are blue in the face, and it won’t change the fact that you are STILL behind the curve of where we, as Ex-Christians, are at. Based on your most recent post above, six years ago is about where I was 20 years ago. And NO, you DON’T know where I am coming from so don’t be so hasty in thinking you have some insight you don’t really have. Nor do I, or have I ever, trolled Christian websites blogging them in condescending and provocative ways. That’s the sure sign of an immature mind.

I’m sure you are looking for rational, thought-provoking discussion, but all of your posts can be summed up by a sentence in your entry of 11/19/06 3:28 AM where you wrote “They are simply my beliefs.” They are your beliefs Danny. They aren’t mine, or anyone else’s here and I am not going to discuss your “beliefs”. If you have something different to add that we haven’t already heard from a thousand trolls already then we can have a polite conversation. Until then, enjoy your beliefs on a Christian website where it is welcome.

Just so you know, you are wrong if you think Jesus didn’t hate, because he must have hated fig trees. He cursed one to death. One would think an enlightened savior/creator would use his ability to have the tree produce fruit out of season, rather than kill it for not growing fruit out of season.

LOL also!

Anonymous · 3 years ago

And in my best behavior
I am really just like him
Look beneath the floor boards
For the secrets I have hid
-sufjan stevens

chrislillpop · 3 years ago

I would like to clear up a misconception from my previous post. I know that it hard to communicate through writing the exact intention of the post but I was not trying to list off words like “God” or “Sin” just so that those who call themselves “Ex-Christians” would immediately change their thinking and become Christians again. I was just stating things that I had learned from these events. This experience has been good for me because it is very easy to get caught in the trap of using words like those and I hope that in the future I will be conscious of my audience and not use “Churchy” words all of the time.
It is evident that followers of Christ are not wanted here so I guess that I will honor that. If you have anything to say feel free to email me at chris_lillpop@hotmail.com.
Also, if you are a Christian posting on this site I think that it is only fair to show who you are. don't be anonymous. Show who you are and be upfront with people.

Chris

sailerfraud · 3 years ago

little chris lollipop,

I've seen your blogsites and figure you have much to be thankful toward God. It says you are 21, recently got married, and got hired by Allstate. Good for you.

However, your writings show you are rather immature and fail to understand the audience you are speaking. This is a site for exchristians, people who already went through the same churches and religious experiences you are experiencing. The reality is, we are not ignorant of the Bible or church theology, and many of us have had far more experiences with Chrtistianity than you.

So God lead you to your marriage and career. That's proof that God exists? What about the other 99% of prayers that go unanswered, like the time when your close friend or relative died (or will die) from cancer which you so fervently prayed for healing?

Then comes the brutal reality of religion. What do you do when your wife gains like 60+ pounds and you lose all attraction in her? You'll preach morals, then secretly engage with internet pornography and prostitution? Perhaps even more devious sexual patterns like homosexuality and child molestation?

Think that can't happen? I've been involved in the church life over 10 years, and it does happen quite frequently. When your marriage reaches the pits and you face depression, and realize prayers go unanswered, is that enough evidence that you are merely following a fictitous deity?

Go ahead, write all you want about how it is God's will and all unanswered prayers and negative events are a test of faith, but we've been through all that and only laugh when we see gullible victims giving away their entire life possessions out of faith in the irrational.

sailerfraud · 3 years ago

Another point. You believe that because you got married and found a job and you are happy for now, this is evidence your God exists.

What about a Muslim, Hindu, Jew, cult follower, etc... who also experiences similar good events. That must mean their god exists, because their god answered their prayers for now.

Come on, you'll have to do better than that to prove your god exists.

tinkster · 3 years ago

I noticed that the discussion on this one has died down a bit... folks have been silent for about a week or so. Maybe this comment will stir the discussion up again.

I am a pastor--of the Christian variety.

I personally know the ex-pastor who sexually assaulted the 16-year old girl. I was actually on the team of people that hired him. I worked with him for most of his tenure at his latest (and most likely last) church, until about these last six months, during which I have been serving at a different church in a different state.

And yes, this means that I also personally know his 16-year old victim.

Now, I know that I am not an "ex-Christian." Though it may be hard to believe, I actually do not need to be made aware of this fact. However, I'm posting on this forum anyways, based on several assumptions:

1. People claiming the title of "ex-Christian" presumably do so on the basis valuing of sound, authentic thinking and reasoning. You tasted Christianity for a time, found yourself to be utterly dissatisfied or disillusioned (whether it be experientially, idealistically, theologically, intellectually, philosophically, some other "ally", or all of the above), and reasoned to reject it and leave it behind.

2. Thus, thinking people like yourselves would value sound reasoning anywhere from anyone, regardless of what (if any) religious beliefs are in some way attached to it.

3. Therefore, you would not feel the need to point to the "ExChristian.Net" title of this forum and use it as an excuse to disregard my thoughts entirely.

In the same vein, but perhaps on the other side of the coin, in light of where I am posting, I understand that any and all persuasion toward Christianity or its theological beliefs and convictions--epsecially using its assumptions and terms--are entirely misplaced here. I will not waste your time with this already lengthy post on some sort of evangelistic effort.

All of that to say:

It is both a travesty and tragedy that we (and by "we" I mean us as a modern Western culture, us as people in these United States here and now, and even more specifically, Christians like myself) do not identify more with the victims of these crimes. If we were to put on a scale our empathy and concern for the victims of crimes like this, and weighed it against our sympathy toward the perpetrators with whom we are in relationship and with whom we worked alongside, more often then not the scale would tip in favor of the perpetrator. That is as unjust as the crime committed against the victim, and simply continues the cycle of abuse.

And just to be clear, this was a horrific, terrible, unbelievably selfish and ugly thing that this man did. This young woman will deal with this on some level, in a very real and present way, for the rest of her physical life. Someday soon this occurence will probably pass right out of all of your minds-- you who have used it so cavalierly for your own purposes on this forum. But it will never, ever pass out of hers, for as long as she lives here on this earth.

That being said, it is also much easier to label and lynch someone you don't know, and to canonize someone who you equally know nothing about. The mug shot on TV strikes you differently when you have a history with the person it pictures. Maybe some of you know that, but others of you are just plain ignorant of that.

Nevertheless, let us not be confused: let justice be done, let the punishment fit the crime, and let us fight to ensure it for those who can not fight for themselves. This you understand, and this you could with integrity find values to support.

By the way, the above paragraph, though certainly not solely Christian, is thoroughly Christian.

But what you may not be able to find the values to support is this: forgiveness for the convict, and redemption for the one broken. In the mind of the Christian (which is understandably a loaded term, and which perhaps has lost its meaning entirely in this forum... but humor me), the penalty for the crime--even the most heinous, like this one--has already been paid. I need not remind you how. The strength and healing necessary for the one broken by this crime has already been made available, in adequate supply, by the same unsaid means. Their two lives now become the stage on which these truths are played out. The rest of us who claim the title of Christian find ourselves on the same stage, and depending on the act, we find ourselves playing the role of either or both the perpetrator and victim.

I said that I wasn't going to try and evangelize. Forgive me if it has suddenly appeared otherwise. I just felt that if I was going to be pronounced guilty by association, I wanted to be clear on exactly how I am guilty, and how I am not.

Dano · 3 years ago

Who makes the rules about how old a female must be before a preacher can screw her legally? Society does. If she is seventeen, wrong, eighteen, OK.

How do young men get the idea that if they strap a bomb onto their body and fill their pockets full of rat poison and nails and get on a crowded bus and blow themselves up along with 30 or 40 innocent people, that they will go directly to heaven, and be met by 72 beautiful black eyed virgins, and then be able to invite 70 friends and relatives to heaven to be with them?

I will answer the above question myself. Religion!

How do little children get the idea that there is a powerful entity called Satan who is running around trying to make them do bad things, and they must believe a Pagan, blood sacrifice story, and other mythical tales from a hideous book written 2000 years ago, or they will be tossed into a lake of fire, where they will burn forever?

Or that if their little brother, or their mother and father don't buy into this belief, and they do, they must live in heaven forever while their loved ones are roasting in hell.

Preachers like Billy Graham spend their whole lives telling people this shit.

Man is at a peculiar place in his evolutionary progress. He is able to keep totally unsubstantiated mythical beliefs in one part of his brain and the machinery for sending people to the moon and getting them home safely, in another part. He is capable of belief in magic, and hard cold logic, both at the same time.

We don't have to learn all of this wrong stuff to be good people, we just have to chuck religions into the trash and get busy get busy figuring out how to save mankind before religion destroys us.
Dano (God is truth)

Bentley · 3 years ago

When you compile a composition of ancient beliefs and superstitions that were wrote and handed down over 2000 years ago and written in multiple languages and translated thousands of times by a group of self-claimed holy spirit filled people that got together and agreed on what is the true inspired word of a God and what is not, you end up with a book comprised of human indorsed insanity.

Now if you are so gullible and naive to believe that the infallible word of a God can be passed down through humans without error, there's something askew in your thinking processes.

Now with grown adults having (that should know better themselves) and accepting this book to have been written down as pure fact and passing this belief on to children as pure fact and then using their priestly powers to over-come and subdue children, it would be better for a millstone to be put around their neck, so I've heard!

Now, how did the Bible get over to America?? Does any Christian know or even want to know??? answer: Christopher Columbus brought it over here with him, before that period of time, not a single Bible, nor church had been built on American soil.

The only reason and only reason that people believed that they had a soul is, because when they took the bodies out of town to Sheol (hell) everyday to burn them, they saw the smoke rising and said that they were ascending to Heaven, this is also how the term Hell was incorporated to scare people into religious submission.

What we have here is a book that is like Pandora's Box, once opened and believed and accepted as truth, it binds and shackles the mind, many people have died expecting to burst those pearly gates wide open only to find themselves into complete nothingness.

The counsel made a fallible mistake when they let this verse slip through, Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The Bible is a book not written nor inspired by a god, but a book written by men that they thought a God would like for people(back then)to hear and adhere to.

To give them a feeling of false hope for something, for anything because they were so poor and ignorant that any thing they thought they would get later on was more that they ever had while living.

That's why they incorporated pearly gates, streets paved of gold, jewels and gems, the envy of every hopeless peasant, beggar and king.

tinkster · 3 years ago

Who makes the rules about how old a female must be before a preacher can screw her legally? Society does. If she is seventeen, wrong, eighteen, OK.

Tell me: on what have societies anchored their laws throughout history? How have they determined what is "lawful" and "unlawful?" Would you have us believe that each societal law system has been developed by some sort of utterly unique and random process, respectively relative only to it's own social climate? Come now. Cultural expressions may be as numerous as the number of cultures themselves, but anyone with two eyes and a sound mind can see that there are timeless principles that transcend culture, on which cultures have developed their respective systems of laws. So, the system you have so estutely pointed out reflects the timeless principle that young people should not be preyed upon. Now, why 18 and not 17 or some other age? I don't know, and neither do you. But let's not be so bold as to assume that because there is cultural relativity in picking the age, that therefore the principle behind it is as equally relative.

To be sure, cultures are messed up because they are made up of messed up people, so their expressions of these principles are messed up as well... but nevertheless, they most often do their level best to ascribe to them. And from where have these principles come?

How do young men get the idea that if they strap a bomb onto their body and fill their pockets full of rat poison and nails and get on a crowded bus and blow themselves up along with 30 or 40 innocent people, that they will go directly to heaven, and be met by 72 beautiful black eyed virgins, and then be able to invite 70 friends and relatives to heaven to be with them?

No, the answer is not religion. The answer is Islam. Straw man arguments should not have a place in this forum.

When you compile a composition of ancient beliefs and superstitions that were wrote and handed down over 2000 years ago and written in multiple languages and translated thousands of times by a group of self-claimed holy spirit filled people that got together and agreed on what is the true inspired word of a God and what is not, you end up with a book comprised of human indorsed insanity.

A textual critic you are not. Please don't pretend like you know how the Bible has been translated when you very obviously do not. We have literally thousands of different manuscripts from several different text families across millenia, across cultures, across religious traditions within Christianity, and across geographic location. Some of these New Testament texts date back incredibly close to the time Jesus walked the earth. The notion that the biblical text tradition is tantamount to some "telephone" game is both absurd and irresponsible. Biblical text critics--of which many would not claim the title of "Christian"--agree on this fact. This is not to say that you have to believe what is in the Bible; this is only to say that you are bound to read it as a textually sound ancient text.

And please do not conflate inspiration with textual validity. The Bible is textually valid due to the integrity of the process by which it has been preserved and transfered... an entirely scientific and temporal process. We believe it to be inspired based on different reasons--matters of faith, practice, and experience, and what we deem to be historical facts--reasons that I understand do not have a platform here in this forum.

Now if you are so gullible and naive to believe that the infallible word of a God can be passed down through humans without error, there's something askew in your thinking processes.

To be clear (and I am speaking for evangelical Christians now), we believe that the Bible is infallible in its original manuscripts. And yes, most of us know that we no longer have those at our disposal. However, due to the answer above, we believe that we have sufficient textual evidence to reproduce a text that is an acceptable copy of the original. And in the New Testament text, as someone who has done the difficult work of translation and text criticism, I can say this: of the text problems that are in the New Testament (and by text problems I mean to say that there are places where we are presented with two or three different options as to what the original could have said, based on the evidence), none are in passages concerning core Christian doctrines.

Now, how did the Bible get over to America?? Does any Christian know or even want to know??? answer: Christopher Columbus brought it over here with him, before that period of time, not a single Bible, nor church had been built on American soil.

Thank you for the history lesson. I think that unless you are Mormon and believe that Jesus somehow made the trek over the Atlantic to hang out with the First Nation folks, you would not be rocked by that piece of news.

The only reason and only reason that people believed that they had a soul is, because when they took the bodies out of town to Sheol (hell) everyday to burn them, they saw the smoke rising and said that they were ascending to Heaven, this is also how the term Hell was incorporated to scare people into religious submission.

I'm pretty sure that the concept of the immortal soul was not limited to the Hebrew system, and I'm also pretty sure that the conjecture concerning the concept of the immortal soul being tied specifically and utterly to smoke is pretty much a flowery guess. Playing fast and loose with history should not have a place on this forum.

The counsel made a fallible mistake when they let this verse slip through, Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

And now we come to one of the most commonly committed exegetical fallacies--a.k.a., interpretive mistakes. Quite honestly, the fallacy is committed by more Christians than non, but in this case the fallacy was committed by a non-Christian. The fallacy is this: the different books of the Bible need to be read according to their respective literary genres. thus, Eccelsiasties needs to be read according to the tenets of its literary genre: Jewish Wisdom literature. If one is seeking a faithful reading of the text, then that same one will find different literary methods employed in the genre that lend to a correct interpretation of the text.

The faith community who produced and preserved this text certainly did not "let this verse slip." In context, and according to its literary genre, the verse is saying something completely different than you think it appears to be saying. We would all do well to quit imposing our own cultural baggage and convictions on ancient texts.

I could go on... but sooner or later, like everyone, I've gotta get some work done!

boomSLANG · 3 years ago

We would all do well to quit imposing our own cultural baggage and convictions on ancient texts.

The ancient texts in question, specifically those that claim to be "Divinely inspired", are convictions. Furthermore, it's ironic that "cultural relativity" was mentioned. Good job. Both the "Holy Q'ran" and the "Holy Bible" clearly condone, and even encourage, the killing of non-believers in their respective books of "Truth" and "Wisdom". However, to this day, one "culture" sees fit to still engage in such activity, and another does not.

We can all agree that no deity, no person, or no "culture" has ever "amended" either one of these books. The language exists to this day, and it is concise. There are no "translation errors", nor is the language "metaphorical", or "parable". But yet, what do we see? What we see, is one "culture" has figured out that killing people for having opposing religious views is "wrong".

Now, would we call this society more civilized?....more educated?....more humane?....more socially evolved to meet the needs of it's people? OR... would we call one "Holy" book "better" than the other? Think about it.

Dano · 3 years ago

tinkster quotes Dano:
"How do young men get the idea that if they strap a bomb onto their body and fill their pockets full of rat poison and nails and get on a crowded bus and blow themselves up along with 30 or 40 innocent people, that they will go directly to heaven, and be met by 72 beautiful black eyed virgins, and then be able to invite 70 friends and relatives to heaven to be with them?

Then tinkster says:
"No, the answer is not religion. The answer is Islam. Straw man arguments should not have a place in this forum.....," and. "To be clear (and I am speaking for evangelical Christians now), we believe that the Bible is infallible in its original manuscripts"

DAN CHECKS WIKIPEDIA:

Islam is a monotheistic religion based upon the teachings of Muhammad. It is the second-largest religion in the world today, with an estimated 1.4 billion adherents, known as Muslims.
Muslims believe that God (Arabic: Allah) revealed the Qur'an to Muhammad and that Muhammad is God's final prophet (see: Prophets of Islam). Muslims consider the Qur'an and the traditions of Muhammad in the Sunnah to be the basic sources of Islam] Like Judaism and Christianity, Islam is an Abrahamic religion Today, Muslims may be found throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East, North Africa, South Asia, Central Asia, and Southeast Asia. About 20 percent of Muslims originate from Arab countries Islam is the second largest religion in many European countries, such as France, which has the largest Muslim population in Western Europe, and the United Kingdom.

Thank you very much tinkster, and since you are a self professed evangelical Christian, I would suggest that you are not part of the solution as what to do about the problem of two great religions, going head to head, and killing each other over their unique ideologies.

YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!
Dano (Convert to rationalism)
Function: noun
1 : reliance on reason as the basis for establishment of religious truth
2 a : a theory that reason is in itself a source of knowledge superior to and independent of sense perceptions b : a view that reason and experience rather than the nonrational are the fundamental criteria in the solution of problems

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

I prefer to watch this one from the sidelines as there are so many brilliant writers here, like Jim Arvo, boomSLANG, Webmaster, J. C. Samuelson and Dave8 that I am eagerly watching for their responses.(Thanks boom’, I just read your response and as usual, you’ve nailed it squarely.)But I wanted to toss in my two cents after I read Tinkster’s comment above stating:

“…most of us know that we no longer have those (the original manuscripts) at our disposal. However, we believe that we have sufficient textual evidence to reproduce a text that is an acceptable copy of the original. And in the New Testament text, as someone who has done the difficult work of translation and text criticism, I can say this: of the text problems that are in the New Testament (and by text problems I mean to say that there are places where we are presented with two or three different options as to what the original could have said, based on the evidence), none are in passages concerning core Christian doctrines.”


So we don’t have the original manuscripts, but we CAN trust what is in the bible. Based on what then? Textual evidence? That is proof that it is inerrant? How is it determined to be acceptable? Does god enlighten those making that decision? Also, Tinkster said he had two or three different options as to what the original COULD HAVE SAID, to choose from for New Testament texts. So these passages could have said something entirely different. Tinkster doesn’t really know, yet this guesswork is in the bible as the inerrant word of god.

And finally, Tinkster wrote: “The fallacy is this: the different books of the Bible need to be read according to their respective literary genres."

Pray tell, where does the bible state that in order to understand god’s word, the reader needs to understand all the different literary genres in order to comprehend what they are reading? This is what god wanted when he supposedly inspired this book?

Frankly, if that is true, I’m not impressed with this god.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

hmmm. i think things aren't so black and white. Don Ryan is not perfect. Nor is a 100% a jerk. I know him well. Maybe better than a lot of you who have labeled Colorado a terrible state, christians terrible people, and all pastors sex addicts. I don't look at any of you and label your states according to the crimes committed in them nor do I think ill of you simply because of your religious beliefs. Don Ryan, while he did commit a terrible crime, one that has ultimately changed the course of many lives, taught me many valuable lessons. He was my comfort in times of trouble, my word of advice in times of crisis, and the guy who could always make me laugh. I would never excuse or condone his actions, but I do think it is important to know that he normal. He has great gifts, but he messes up. Just like you, or you, or me.

Bentley · 3 years ago

I love it when I see the christian twist, warp, contort scripture and leap over the pews and swing on the chandeliers to make their Bible look to appear true.

Thanks for the laughs tinkerbell, you're a hoot!

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Isn’t it funny when anonymous fundies come on here and read us the riot act because some man of the cloth they know gets caught flagrante delicto?

Anonymous, I think Pastor Ryan has taught you another lesson that seems to be missed, and that is, keep Mr. Winkey out of underage receptacles and these problems won’t arise.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

"Maybe better than a lot of you who have labeled Colorado a terrible state, christians terrible people, and all pastors sex addicts."

Somehow I get the impression my flammatory comments caused much of this debate.

Instead of reciting lengthy verses, I'll keep my viewpoits simple. The U.S. Constitution guarantees the right to religion. It also protects the rest of us from the religious fanatics.

If you want a safe religious experience, just stay within your bounds. When you religious wingnuts get aggressive into politics, belittling and threatening anyone who is not Republican, promote right-wing extremist theocratic fascism, and trample on our basic rights, then we fight back.

That is what you are experiencing.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

And these problems won’t arise.

Good choice of words.

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Webmaster,

Unintended pun. Thanks!

tinkster · 3 years ago

So we don’t have the original manuscripts, but we CAN trust what is in the bible. Based on what then? Textual evidence? That is proof that it is inerrant? How is it determined to be acceptable? Does god enlighten those making that decision? Also, Tinkster said he had two or three different options as to what the original COULD HAVE SAID, to choose from for New Testament texts. So these passages could have said something entirely different. Tinkster doesn’t really know, yet this guesswork is in the bible as the inerrant word of god.

All veiled sarcasm aside, Warnepiece, thank you for actually responding to what I wrote, and not employing the good ol' strawman technique like your fellow blogger, Bentley:

I love it when I see the christian twist, warp, contort scripture and leap over the pews and swing on the chandeliers to make their Bible look to appear true.

Chandeliers and pews? Twisting, warping, and contorting scripture? I didn't even use any scripture!! It takes work and discipline to respond intelligently, and in a manner that remains true to the arguments of the person you are challenging. Take some lessons from your counterparts in here, and then if you do have something to say about what I actually wrote, by all means, I'd love to hear it.

And now, Warnepiece, back to your statement:

So we don’t have the original manuscripts, but we CAN trust what is in the bible. Based on what then? Textual evidence? That is proof that it is inerrant? How is it determined to be acceptable? Does god enlighten those making that decision?

The question centers on the relationship of (on the one hand) inerrancy and (on the other hand) the principles of textual criticism. Just so we're clear, we're talking about inerrancy here, and not infallibility or inspiration. I am (with no condescension intended) assuming that you readily know the respective differences. We can with integrity discuss inerrancy here, because it really does not have to involve matters of religious conviction. If it did, (and I'm assuming you would agree with this), then there would be no point in discussing it--you have already looked at the evidence of religious conviction and judged it to be wanting.

Along those lines, I will not "take the bait" concerning your last question of "does God enlighten those making the decision?" If you are simply wanting to know if I think that, then yes, I do happen to think that. BUT, that is certainly not the ONLY thing on which I base my opinion of faithfulness to the original. It would make my position much more vulnerable, especially concerning the values driving this forum, but as I said:

And please do not conflate inspiration with textual validity. The Bible is textually valid due to the integrity of the process by which it has been preserved and transfered... an entirely scientific and temporal process. We believe it to be inspired based on different reasons--matters of faith, practice, and experience, and what we deem to be historical facts--reasons that I understand do not have a platform here in this forum.

So, I look at the principles of textual criticism, like the ones I named in my post (amount of copies, copies close to the time of Christ, copies across different religious traditions within Christianity, and copies from different textual families in different geographical locations), and am able to conclude that yes, we are able to produce a copy today from the textual evidence that we have that is faithful to the original.

Now, lest you point me once again back to the fact (and yes, I said fact) that there are places where it really is anybody's guess as to what the original said--in other words, that there texts in our copy that could be read two or three different ways, let me say a few things (some of which I have already said):

1. Simply because there are two or three different valid options does not mean that "nothing about the original can be known." That is not true. We know that it was one of those three options. Not knowing which one exactly does not allow us to conclude that there are an "infinite" amount of options and therefore we "have no idea."

2. Where there are two or three different options, those options do not lead to the integrity of the entire document being compromised, giving us the right to throw the copy out entirely on the basis of its "impurity." For example: presuming we did not have the original constitution of the United States, it would be like saying that we have "no idea what the consitution actually says" and therefore no responsibility to treat it as a historical document because one copy said "We the people of the United States," one said "We the people of these United States," and the other said "We the many people of these United States." I hope that you can see the implications of this example as it pertains to your view as I am understanding it.

3. Therefore, the jump from the copy we have reproduced to inerrancy is not a uncrossable chasm, but simply the next step.

And once again simply to be clear, what I am saying in this forum is that we can trust what is said in the Bible in the sense that we can trust that what it says now is what it said then, when it was originally written. I fully understand that an argument for trusting in any other sense is misplaced in this forum. You may have plenty of other reasons not to trust the Bible religiously, but one of them can not be a lack of textual soundness.

Finally, for Boom--with sincerity, thank you for your post. It also addressed what I actually wrote, and I take it seriously enough to think more about that before I post.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Regardless of how close to the original manuscript our copies of the Iliad might be, I still think the stories of gods and magic are made up.

I even think the more modern stories of Moroni, magic glasses and gold plates in Mormonism are made up too.

In fact, when it comes to invisible, magical men, fiery, flying chariots, talking snakes, dragons, satyrs, people rising from graves only to fade away later, angels, demons, floating axes, etc., well, I'm just pretty darn sure that it's all pretend.

I mean, I love the Harry Potter stories, but... it's pretend.

People love stories. They're fun. But they're not reality.

What is real, however, is that people who claim to be transformed by the magical Holy Ghost, and who believe they were called by the Almighty ruler of Eternity to lead the gentle sheep of God, who are dead in Christ, and yet live, and yet not them living, but Christ living in them, commit crimes like this pastor, f***ing some poor father's little girl.

Then, the Christian comes here upset, claiming we should be understanding, and forgive this MAN OF GOD, and upset because these cruel infidels would criticize a man who has claimed on numerous occasions to have the Everlasting Son of God living in his heart while at the same time he is unabashedly boning someone's child?

I'm sorry, it's not only all pretend, it's sick.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

To tinkster:

I'll just say it out. Fuck you with your lies and hypocrisy. You claim your cult leader needs healing and understanding for committing a crime. Only becuase he contributed money and time to your church.

If an "unsaved" person committed the crime, you would take the opportunity to condemn us in hell. You would preach your lies that society is evil and your cult figure Jesus is needed.

Fuck you, and if you have any courage, tell us your real name.

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Tinkster,

Thank you for your response. I am not in the same strata as the far more articulate writers on this website, but I will try to answer a bit of your post. I know your intention is to present what you believe to be the best evidence showing how we can trust the message of the bible, or at least the original manuscript.
I thought the original intent was the discussion of Pastor Don. You initially wrote you meant to stir this pot up again, regarding your involvement with him, and you have done so. Take a look at Sailerfraud and Webmaster’s posts if you haven’t already.

You are correct in saying I have judged the evidence in the bible and found it wanting. My grandfather was a Disciples of Christ minister. To say that most of my life I was steep in gospel would be an understatement. I had many discussions with him and he would attempt to explain what was in the bible. But too many times I came away from those discussions with a strong sense of being led around by the nose. I was told I couldn’t question it; it was the word of God! It was only after he passed away, and following another recent death in my family that I went back and re-read the bible from cover to cover. I didn’t skip a page. I did not find what I read to be infallible, meaning “something that is certainly true or that can be safely relied on”, inerrant, meaning “not liable to error or incapable of failure”, or inspiration which suggests “a special positive divine influence”. Yes, I do know the difference. But condensing a bit what you have written, it boils down to: copies of copies of copies of copies produced a copy today from the textual evidence that is faithful to the original. How would you know? That is why I asked if god enlightens you. You answered that, yes he/she/it does, but that is not the ONLY thing you base your opinion on. There is where I think we have the crux of the problem, you believe god, among other things, gives you the inspiration to know the textual evidence is true, or as you later put “We believe it to be inspired”. I hate to belabor a point made repeatedly on this website but the whole business comes down to what you believe. You may have faith that it is true but nothing is true just because you wish or desire it to be so! I agree with the philosophy that in matters that confirm information, one should “Doubt until demonstrated reliable, and then rely on it only to the extent it is so demonstrated”. What you have written does not demonstrate that, in my opinion. You can believe that it does but most of us require a LOT more than someone’s faith or belief. No veiled sarcasm was intended with what I wrote. I meant every word of it, sarcastic or not. It is precisely because I have had a lifetime of exposure to Christianity, and found ALL of it wanting, that I respond to it with sarcasm.

Sam · 3 years ago

That's what gets me, you make believe christians have absolutely no way of proving that the Bible is true and then you build a church and lead people around telling them it's true and preach against adultery and sexual abuse and then the pastor gets caught having sexual contact with a 16 year old girl and then you have the nerve to say that an invisible spirit (satan) misguided this holy spirited god called preacher as an excuse for aberrant behavior.

You've got your ancient sicko book to save you and you play your Jesus get out of hell free card.

And tinckler comes on here defending this sicko pastor, you should all be run out of town.

You're all a bunch of sick religious pervert wacko's.

tinkster · 3 years ago

Webmaster,

Since we're now at the point in the discussion where we are apparently looking to the most authoritative source of supporting evidence for our arguments in American culture--the movie--let me throw out a quote from a movie that I'm sure would put you right over the edge:

"Sometimes seeing is believing, and sometimes the things that are most real are the things you can't see."--The Polar Express

Now, I am very well aware that I'm pretty much putting a huge target on my back with that quote, because after all, the movie is a children's fairy tale, but my point in doing so is this: if you want to drive it all back to a simple difference in value or belief, and like Bentley brush off any and all meaningful addressing of what I actually wrote, then fine. I can let a dead dog lie.

You think that all of the supernatural material in the Christian tradition is just made up stories, like any other mythical tradition. Fine. I don't agree with that, but that's not what I'm trying to prove. Again, I know where I'm posting. I know that your presuppositions concerning the nature of reality and how humans are to relate to it are fundamentally different than mine. I'm just saying that one of your reasons for differing from my view can not be the lack of integrity in the textual tradition of the Bible. Simply saying that you think it's made up, though that certainly is a possiblity, is a separate and other issue entirely, and follows a separate and other line of argumentation.

To get on to the next part of your post:

What is real, however, is that people who claim to be transformed by the magical Holy Ghost, and who believe they were called by the Almighty ruler of Eternity to lead the gentle sheep of God, who are dead in Christ, and yet live, and yet not them living, but Christ living in them, commit crimes like this pastor, f***ing some poor father's little girl.

You are Goddamn right it's real, and I am not the one who needs to be reminded. It's gonna be real to me next week, next month, next year... far longer than it will ever be "real" to you. And my dealing with it is as light as a feather when compared to what that "little girl" is carrying. To be sure, and even to be sensitive, I don't mean to suggest that you haven't been affected by something like this or that you are completely ignorant of what it feels like. But, in light of the fact that you have not shared if that is the case, and due to your ignorance of these particular people involved in this particular situation, you can save your righteous posturing for someone else.

And if you press me on how it is possible that a man who has claimed to no longer live but to have Christ living in him--a man who ascribed to being transformed by the Holy Spirit--could commit such an atrocity, I would say that I do not know. Do you want to hear that it disturbs me? It does. I find myself crying randomly, dealing with bouts of depression, wading through confusion, and wanting to simply be angry. And only because it continues to be worth saying, my wound is a papercut next to the stabbing wound his victim is suffering.

You take it as evidence against the reality of a God and a
God-Man, Jesus--that if there really were such beings, that this type of thing would not continue to happen. I take it as evidence that we continue to need God and the God-Man.

now that I think about it, I do know. How could someone who claimed to follow Jesus commit such a crime? I guess it's simple: in this, he wasn't following Jesus. He stiff-armed him, did not listen to him, did not submit to him, and arrogantly disobeyed him.

But you didn't leave it at that:

Then, the Christian comes here upset, claiming we should be understanding, and forgive this MAN OF GOD, and upset because these cruel infidels would criticize a man who has claimed on numerous occasions to have the Everlasting Son of God living in his heart while at the same time he is unabashedly boning someone's child?

At no point have I demanded you forgive him. At no point have I labeled you as a "cruel infidel" for demanding justice. As a matter of fact, I said:

Nevertheless, let us not be confused: let justice be done, let the punishment fit the crime, and let us fight to ensure it for those who can not fight for themselves. This you understand, and this you could with integrity find values to support.

And your predictable post has lended itself to the truthfulness of the above statement. But my next statement has also proven to be true:

But what you may not be able to find the values to support is this: forgiveness for the convict, and redemption for the one broken.

You see, I didn't demand that you forgive him--for the very reason that your system of beliefs doesn't even allow you to do it! It only allows you--nay, compels you--to criticize! And don't get me wrong--I'm not saying that your judgment of this act as being ugly and vicious is incorrect! I'm just saying that it's insufficient--it labels the problem, but does not solve the problem... nor does it remedy the situation. Explain to me how rationalism will help this girl recover, or how it will fix this obviously broken man.

I needn't even mention the obvious fact that there are certainly pedophiles who pray on children and who believe like you do. Hell, I'm sure it would make us all sick if what everyone belonging to this forum has done in their respective lives was dragged out into the light for everyone to see.

But that won't happen, and you know it. So retreat to the safety of your ivory tower of rationalism, hurl down your judgments without the possibility of reconciliation on those who have fallen, and keep on expressing sympathy for the ones who have been victimized without feeling any need for personal intervention. I'll keep on preaching forgiveness for the ones who repent, justice for the ones unjustly waylaid, redemption and healing for the ones broken. And I have the capability of doing so with integrity, because all of these things find their being in the existence of God. And these things will happen, not because I am some sort of saint, but because I am willing to let this fairy-tale God use me as his instrument. You won't see it happen, and that's fine, because even if you did, it wouldn't change your mind.

And yes, I know... I went beyond the borders of rational argument and into my values. Sorry. Let's just put the icing on the cake, the dot over the "i", and the last straw on the camel's back... and say that Jesus made me do it.

tinkster · 3 years ago

Sam, I know that it's a lot, but why don't you actually read what I wrote before you even begin to accuse me of defending what this man did, much less claim that "the devil made him do it." Such a caricature is not even worth a response.

tinkster · 3 years ago

And Sailer, see my response to Sam. By the way, it's easy to call someone a coward over the internet... so easy that only a coward would do it.

And after you put together what that means, yes, I realize that it was an inevitably hypocritical statement. But I could not resist.

And unless your real name is "Sailerfruad," I don't feel compelled to share mine.

I guess I can't resist responding to your asinine post, come to think about it:

You claim your cult leader needs healing and understanding for committing a crime. Only becuase he contributed money and time to your church.

Yes, we pastors of local churches are notorious for how much we make. Damn, what a racket we have going on over here. People just can't get to their wallets quick enough when that ol' collection plate passes by. I know you'd be jealous when you see my
W-2, my '93 Accord with 180,000 miles on it, and my 1000 square foot house. Not that I'm complaining, by any means... I have it better than most of the rest of the world's population by a long shot, and I know it. But, relative to, well, probably you, I would be a step down the socioeconomic ladder.

And does he need healing? OF COURSE. CAN'T YOU SEE, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE SEES, THAT HE'S SICK? It's the sick people who need to be healed, and they need to be healed PRIMARILY BECAUSE THEY ARE SICK. I trust that you are not truly as dense as your irrational post indicates.

Now, what you probably meant to say is that he is not deserving of being offered understanding or healing because of what he did. I would agree wholeheartedly: what he did does not demand healing, it demands punishment. And let justice be done. You can undertand that, and can with integrity find support for that in your value system.

But by now, I have to sound like a broken record, and if you've read any of my posts, you would already know what my next point would be. So, instead of repeating myself, I refer you to my posts.

If an "unsaved" person committed the crime, you would take the opportunity to condemn us in hell. You would preach your lies that society is evil and your cult figure Jesus is needed.

I would hopefully not have to preach that society is evil; what society does (and actually, what the individuals do who make up societies leading to systematic societal dysfunction) is evidence enough in and of itself. Like I mentioned to Webmaster, I hate to break it to ya, but preying on children isn't limited to my side of the fence. Neither is murder, racism, the subjugation of women, or any of the other societal ills that plague us. And it's not limited to only our culture, and only our time in history. Maybe you could blame us if we were the only ones riddled with this junk. But we're not.

It's our own junk that stands and condemns us, and we for the most part are pretty aware of it, not needing to be reminded. I'm tempted to jump right into what I believe we do need to be made aware of, but I know that it is already lost on you.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Warnepiece said: "There is where I think we have the crux of the problem, you believe god, among other things, gives you the inspiration to know the textual evidence is true,"

What "True Christians™" fail to comprehend is that their religion's only real evidence is their own personal revelatory experience. In other words, "I feel the presence of the Lord," or something to that effect. I've heard it hundreds of times, "If you had a relationship with HIM, you'd never be able to leave." Well, anyone who has read my testimonial knows that I too had all those kinds of experiences. I was completely convinced of the reality and presence of GOD in my life for a long time. The human mind is capable of quite a few amazing stunts. I now have a differing opinion about those emotional experiences that I was so confident about: If you believe something strongly enough, it does become true, at least for you.

Tinkster said: "your system of beliefs doesn't even allow you to do it!"

To what system of beliefs are you referring when you say "your system of belief." Are you trying to imply that because I am not a Christian I am incapable of extending mercy, forgiveness, understanding? If that is what you think, that's fallacious. It's ridiculous. Christians do not posses the market on human compassion. I challenge you to demonstrate otherwise.

T: Explain to me how rationalism will help this girl recover, or how it will fix this obviously broken man.

Explain how teaching this girl that Santa Claus is real -- to refer back to your Polar Express illustration -- will help anyone? How do you think "God loves you, and knows everything, and watched while one of HIS pastors abused you, and did nothing, but HE really, really, cares, and really, really, wants to help pick up the broken pieces, although HE didn't do anything to alter or put an obstacle in the way of the circumstances leading up to the abuse. Nope, HE WANTED you to experience this abuse for HIS glory and for your eventual good. Remember eternity is what matters, not your short life here on Earth. Etc., etc., etc...."

T: there are certainly pedophiles who pray [sic]on children and who believe like you do

I'll assume that is just a poorly written sentence and that you didn't intend to compare me with having the same mindset as a pedophile.

T: Hell, I'm sure it would make us all sick if what everyone belonging to this forum has done in their respective lives was dragged out into the light for everyone to see.

Let's see, I've been piss-drunk, I've masturbated, I've lusted after beautiful, mature women in my heart, I've been angry and broken my own stuff -- I think I even shoplifted a couple of times as a teen... Oh, and I walked away from a hotel with towels once, but I sent them back -- heinous stuff, I know. Sickening. What's your point? That because all of us do things that are embarrassing then we should ignore or lightly criticize a pastor, who is in a position of leadership, trust and responsibility, when he decides to share his DNA with someone's kid?

T: Who have been victimized without feeling any need for personal intervention.

And your personal intervention is to hide on FaceBook while anonymously posting here in defense of your pastor/friend?

I can't personally help this person, but I can trumpet the fact that just because someone presents themselves as the representative of GOD, the person prone to following charismatic figures should beware. Christians tend to trust pastors. Christians are taught to trust pastors. The Bible teaches Christians to trust pastors. People who acquire these positions can and frequently do become adept at wearing masks. I suppose it goes with that career choice. What yourself.

T: You won't see it happen, and that's fine, because even if you did, it wouldn't change your mind.

Like I said in my testimonial, which is linked on every page on this site, I saw plenty in 30 years as a "True Believer™." And, frankly, when I was your age, I didn't sound much different from you. However, I changed my mind.

Good luck.

Dano · 3 years ago

tinkster,
I would suggest that when you come to an apostate web site and defend your belief that the bible is the literal word of God, you may just be up against an unstoppable movement.

The literary landscape is starting to be covered with books written by Protestants against the organized religions that have taught unsubstantiated bullshit to the masses since the beginning of civilization, and guess what.

Many of these authors are brilliant, loving, caring people. They see how evangelicals elected a president who is gung ho for starting a preemptive war, thinking he will bring Christianity and democracy to the middle east. Popes down through history, have already tried that, at least the Christianity part.

The administrator of this website, and most of us who lurk here, have heard every argument possible from you Christian apologists, and the bottom line is you have not won any of them, because you can't defend the indefensible.

We see the need for love and compassion also, and we are afraid of dying too, but we refuse to use a flawed book as the answer to everything.

The advances taking place today in neuroscience, and every other field of intellectual endeavor, show that we cannot afford the luxury of believing in ancient mythology anymore. One religious nut can set off a bomb in one of our cities and make it uninhabitable for many years.

Your thinking that without the bible there would be no morality or anything to live for just does not hold up anymore, any more than the Muslim variety of that same line of thought. We have to stop defending that bronze age book that has become irrelevant, salvage what is good and beautiful in it, and grow up.
Dano (Saving one enslaved brain at a time)

Dano · 3 years ago

tinkster!
If you will read this book, every jot and tittle, I promise you that you will never be able to play preacher again!

The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason.
by Sam Harris,

OR,

The Dark Side: How Evangelical Teachings Corrupt Love and Truth
by Valerie Tarico

Your friend,
Dan

Anonymous · 3 years ago

nice to see this forum up again after it's been broken for a week. If anyone is still reading...

First, my name is William Lee, it says it on my blog id.

So tinkster as a pastor preaches humility by living a realtively modest lifestyle. The big time pastors making millions always make a show of these little pastors, but that doesn't redeem the immoral and fraudulent practices of these big time pastors scamming the elderly out of their life savings.

So crime is committed by both Christians and non-Christians. My original gripe is the hypocritical preachers who think Christians who give enough money to church is a valid excuse to receive forgiveness in the legal system. Sorry, but you still haven't answered this one, either.

Yes, I'm assinine, blunt, and crass, but I have one redeeming feature you hypocritical preachers lack - honesty. I don't make a living deceiving people into believing I speak directly to the god, the invisible man sitting on top of the clouds, and lie and threaten my flock (particularly the elderly, young, and women) to give me any my church money to get closer to god.

glenn · 3 years ago

sailerfraud said;

I don't make a living deceiving people into believing I speak directly to the god, the invisible man sitting on top of the clouds, and lie and threaten my flock (particularly the elderly, young, and women) to give me any my church money to get closer to god.


There's a supreme oxymoron for ya!

Ahh it must be so nice to talk to god sitting on a cloud every day!

I'm so glad that there are aleast a few honest preachers and true christians still around.

(Trying to be blatantly and overly sarcastic here!)

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Over the past month (at this church thats obviously under ridicule on this site), having been in this Youth Group for the past 3 and a half years, just thought Id like to say that this situation has yet to shake the God based foundation of this Church. If anything this situation, your guys' insensitivity and lack of real theological arguements,and how everyone in the church has come together, none of you can argue God isnt in this church. None of you have even set foot through Greenwood Community Church's doors. None of you have met the girl involved, none of you have met the staff who's dealing with the situation, none of you have sat in that youth group room that this Pastor talked in for 2 and a half year (that I was present for). So none of you have the right to say WHAT this church really is because you havent even been there. Now that is true hipocrisy.

Am I pissed at this youth pastor? Yes, are you kidding me? The guy was a lot of our (the kids) 2nd dad. It hurts, but you know what? Our pain and struggle doesnt compare to what his family or the girl is going through. So what makes you think you have a place to become emotionally involved and discuss this matter like youre an expert on it? None of us, no one can understand or comprehend what was going through this guys' mind when he chose his actions.

Having said that, I read every single posting just now on this issue. And I feel like a lot of what I read is anger and bitterness and you know what? Ive been angry and bitter too. But no anger or bitterness gives ANYBODY the room to judge an entire religion and an entire group of followers based on your bitterness of how your own faith worked out. Ive been to India and Mexico, what I saw there (poverty, disease, etc) and also the hand of God I saw there, is not up for judgement by anyone. I know God was there, whether you think it's true or not, it isn't your place. My faith is my own so stop trying to tell me or any other Christian who wrote than this site that what is "my own" or what is "their own" is crap.

Jesus Christ was a divine man who believed in honor, truth, sacrifice for the good of many, honesty, trust, selflessness, purity, righteous anger, etc... if anyone acts the opposite way of that it is not the true teachings of Christianity. Do I act like that all the time? No freakin way, Im human I screw up everyday, I stumble, I fall, I cry, Im IMPERFECT. EVERYONE IS IMPERFECT. People who claim the title of Atheist are IMPERFECT and people who proclaim their belief in the Son of God are IMPERFECT. Christianity is based on the idea that even though we are imperfect, a PERFECT man (Jesus Christ) still died for us imperfect, stupid, stumbling people. Why? Because He believed that Grace was true, and real, and good. Nothing about that is hipocritical or stupid or lame. Its beautiful. So the next time you want to judge Christianity, judge it through Christ and his works rather than His imperfect followers, including myself. Open up a Bible and read what Jesus has to say and then make your judgement on what Christianity is. Its CHRISTianity, the belief that CHRIST and His teaching are true, and good, and filled with love. Look to Christ before you judge the religion, dont look to it's followers because we are all admitedly imperfect.

And maybe you all should read Tinkster's and DannyStratfords! messages a couple more times. BEcause they sound pretty rational and even more importantly, well-educated, so obviously they didnt pull their opinions out of their ass so in response to what anyone says, be educated- and actually think before you just throw the F bomb and call people hipocrits, nothing about that "arguement" convinces me that you have a valid opinion that would open my mind to what others have to say.

Thanks to others who are really curious and interested in having an intellectual, philosophical, or theological conversation about these kind of matters.

Every single one of you who have posted, Im praying for you. Not praying that you just convert tomorow or anything, but praying that your anger doesnt become the thing that destroys you. ive let that happen to me and believe me, its no fun.

Blessings and Prayers

MerBear

Sam · 3 years ago

Guess what MerBear? No one has to go through the doors of your man made vanity box, to know it all fake.

That church was not there where before there was possibly animals running around minding their own business when some nucklehead decides to build a church there, interupting nature.

You must remember there is no god there until someone walks in inside, then it becomes your imagination.


MB: a PERFECT man (Jesus Christ)

If Jesus was perfect, why does he need worship??

Doesn't sound too perfect to me, sounds like he needs people to bow down to him to worship his ass.

You must realize that the bible says that god created the whole universe in just six days, but he cannot save souls, he had to hand that duty over to jesus, after having thought about it for four thousand years.

The bible, god, jesus, etc. all are distractions invented by men over two thousand years ago to control and deceive and minipulate people into submission and to get their money, people just like you!

Of course you're way too smart to be taken in by tricksters and ministers and pastors.

To admit that you've been taken by fraud by your church and your preachers, would mean that you would have to admit that you've allowed a bunch of loonies to control you and fooled you, thats the reason so many christians are so eager to defend their beliefs, it would also mean that you would have to admit that you and the whole congregation were Wrong.

Not only has this useless man made church disrupted nature before it was built, but it has destroyed innocent peoples lives, all this perpetrated by a false belief in an imaginary god.

If there was a god in that church, then he would not have allowed,

" sexual assault on a child by one in a position of trust and investigation "

That girl was going there to find god and what did she get? Molested?

What is to keep anyone else from going to your phoney church and get molested?

The church should be bulldozed down and plant trees and grass back like a true real God would have intended.

Astreja · 3 years ago

MerBear, I reject your prayers and your attempt to whitewash the criminal actions of a predatory pastor.

So you don't think we have "the right" to criticize? The man is an admitted criminal who exploited a position of trust. We are criticizing him and will continue to do so regardless of what you think. If you don't like it, go read some other website.

And I'm not buying the "Humanity is imperfect but Jesus makes it okay" nonsense, either. The logical extension of that perverted world view is "Humanity is too flawed to comprehend morality, so behave badly and then just pray for forgiveness."

As for "judging Christianity through Christ," that's circular logic. Tell you what: You judge Ásatrú through Odin, Hinduism through Shiva and Greek paganism through Apollo, and get back to us.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Why does Jesus need worship?

First of all, I worship Jesus Christ because He IS perfect. I follow Him because of His PERFECT love and true divinity. Secondly, Jesus doesnt NEED worship. He is the beginning and the end, He doesnt NEED to have worship in order to feel fulfilled, He is completely and entirely full already because He is God. (Going off of that)God didnt "hand the job over to Jesus" if you wanna talk scripturaly, Jesus is God in another form which is a contribution that has helped form the concept of The Trinity. God in 3 forms, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus was God in the form of man/son, obedient to God's law because it is the law that made Him.

And I think by my publicly admitting Im imperfect, I also admitted that there have been times I was wrong. Youre calling me something that Ive already claimed to be true. IM IMPERFECT (and thats why I NEED CHRIST)

Also, like I just said, EVERYONE is imperfect, pastors, buddhist monks, teachers, philosophers, parents, and the disciples of Christ were imperfect. Peter doubted his faith and another disciple betrayed Christ himself. IMPERFECT, IMPERFECT, WRONG DOERS, that is what every human being on the planet is. The reason Christ was not is because although He came in Human form, He was essentially God in the flesh and one thing I am certain of is that God is perfect. Anyone who can create the universe, make man and woman, teach the sun how to rise and how to set, HE IS PERFECT, and so, Christ was perfect too.

So why did the terrible and horrific thing happen between my youth pastor and my friend? Because people are imperfect. People make stupid choices. People can suck. Thats not news to you and BELIEVE ME it isnt news to me either, and dont even think about telling me that I havent experienced "evil" before or judge me on these statements because your knowledge of my life is 0 just as my knowledge for your life is 0 as well. Other than that, I cant answer answer why God "let" this happen because Im not God (Thankfully). Trust me, I have asked TIME and TIME again, "Lord, why?" Has He answered me? Honestly, no. But it isnt because He doesn't listen, or He doesnt care, or Hes not real, its because He knows every persons heart better than mine and He weeps when Satan just squirms into unfortunate circumstances, but God doesnt answer to me. I dont have the authority to make God answer my every beckon call and frankly, Hes not there to make me comfortable, Hes there to make me whole (as painful as the process may be). I know that we live in a world that is a "small" place for Satan to try and do his dirty work but that we live in a world that has good as well.

God is ALL GOOD. Because of this, what Don Ryan did is not of God. No one, no one (including Christians), will say that his actions were of God.

And also, Don Ryan does not make my faith. Him being arrested, prosecuted, falling into sin and temptation, whatever... He is not what makes my faith strong. He has been someone whos listened to my problems and who has mentored me and other people, but he is not my lord and saviour.... JESUS CHRIST is my Lord and Savior. Am I sad about what he did? Does his actions devastate people? YES, not because he was God. but...heres an example: You have a good friend and they become addicted to drugs. That doesnt shake your moral decisions and base of faith "or lack there of" it just saddens you that they lost their good sense, they lost the judgement you once admired. Its just sad, it doesnt break my faith at all. Hopefully that covers most of your questions

P.S. Your message sounded so angry. SO angry. SO bitter. Like Ive said before, I hope you dont let that destroy you.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Asteraja...

CHRISTianity is a relgion baed off of JESUS CHRIST. JESUS CHRIST was the birth of CHRISTianity. So I explain that you need to understand Jesus Christ because He is the reason and purpose of what I believe in, of what Christians believe in.

Secondly, you asking me to talk about Shive in Hinduism, etc, in order to understand any of those religions you need to have a Holy Scripture, in Hinduism it is the Vedas which explain the Hindu concept.... In Christianity, the HOLY SCRIPTURE is the Bible.... every religion base their beliefs off of a scripture or "guidelines" if you will. Hinduism has the Vedas, Buddhism has the 8 points, Christianity has the Bible. My telling you to read the Bible in understanding Christianity is the same as you telling me to read the Veda in order to understand Hinduism. By the way, I went to India for 3 weeks and went into a HIndu temple, an Islamic masque, and this year I went on a field trip with my World Religions class to a Buddhist monestary, Im a Christian but I'm not ignorant to what other people practice. In order to fully believe anything you need to understand other things in order to truly grow an educated concept of morality.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

(quick addition) I said every religion bases their beliefs off of a scripture, which is true, but I also dont just believe Jesus saved me because the Bible tells me to, I believe it after much prayer, education, and an overwhelming amount of evidence (both in my personal life and throughout history). I believe that the scriptures in the Bible were in fact written through the inspiration and contact of God himself which is why I believe the scriptures are true and why I choose to follow them.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Merber, kid, please define perfect, and please tell us where you get your definition of perfect.

Then, please tell us where you cooked up the idea that humanity is flawed. Flawed compared to what? How are we flawed? How are you imperfect?

none of you can argue God isnt in this church.

In that case, your god is a kinky voyeur, because HE didn't do a damned thing to protect the innocent or restrain the perverse. HE just sat by while Preacher man schtooped a minor.

none of you have the right to say WHAT this church really is because you havent even been there.

That isn't how things work. If the head of GM gets caught screwing a 17-year-old employee, you can bet the whole world will hear about it. Are you saying that unless people work for GM, they don't have the right to an opinion about a leader of a large organization? Sorry kid, when someone takes the mantle of leadership and trust, he has to answer for his behavior on a larger stage. That's life.

None of us, no one can understand or comprehend what was going through this guys' mind when he chose his actions.

No, I'm a fully grown man. I think I have a pretty good idea what was going through this guy's mind. In mammals, it's called the urge to mate.

But no anger or bitterness gives ANYBODY the room to judge an entire religion and an entire group of followers based on your bitterness of how your own faith worked out.

Oh yes it does. It most certainly does! If I can't trust a pastor to keep his penis out of my minor daughter, then how I can trust him with my entire life direction? According to the Buy-Bull, the Holy Ghost is indwelling Christians, leading them into all truth. Yet here we have a revered youth leader bedding a minor on Saturday night and preaching the gospel Sunday morning. Calling this man a two-faced liar would a mild description. Calling him a criminal would be accurate. Saying I couldn't judge him would be akin to saying no criminal can ever be criticized.

The more these Christian leaders are exposed as fakes, the more Christianity appears to be nothing more than deception.

so obviously they didnt pull their opinions out of their ass

So where did you get all your opinions? Did you think them up on your own one day at home? Or were you fed your opinions from the pulpit. Think about it.

One day, after you've grown some hair on your face, you'll think back to this time in your life and realize with embarrassment that you were duped by a false religious cult. Don't feel too bad. Most of us on this site were once as mind-numbed as you are now.

Astreja · 3 years ago

Merbear: "My telling you to read the Bible in understanding Christianity is the same as you telling me to read the Veda in order to understand Hinduism."

Yes, but did you feel the presence of Shiva? Did you really, really, really try to understand Hinduism from the point of view of a devotee of Shiva? Did you do puja and invite the Mahadeva into your heart?

If the above sounds like nonsense to you, then try to imagine how your statement about Christianity sounded to me.

And you are in error when you say that all religions base their beliefs off scripture. There are numerous oral traditions (for example, the Druids -- No scriptures). Zen does have various sutras, but considers them guidelines for proper practice rather than "the truth."

As for the Bible -- I've read the Gospels and portions of both the OT and NT. I have three different translations in the house, including an interlinear Hebrew-English Tanakh. Eventually I'll get around to reading the whole thing.

And, just as you think the Bible is true, I think it false.

In closing...

Merbear: "In order to fully believe anything you need to understand other things in order to truly grow an educated concept of morality."

No, I think you've got it backwards here. Understand other things so that you no longer need to believe in order to comprehend morality.

Kenny · 3 years ago

I can see that little girl as she approaches the church in all humbleness looking for kindness, trust, security, compassion, understanding, guidance and spiritual direction, Not Sex!

She goes inside and looks at all the glorification and stained-glass windows, with a halo beaming around Jesus' head and see's all the pomp and circumstance and effigies bought with man's money and the rituals and they pass the collection plate and she digs inside her money purse to retrive a few coins she saved to pay her expected tithes, and what does she get in return for her tithes? Molested

Should they put chasity belts on all the female and male church goer's? Since this do nothing ivisible god seems to not care, oh yeah I forgot Jesus saves, how convenient.

There's never been a god in that wanker church of yours. You're all two faced hypocrits, endorsing each other of the lie that you're all tryng to pretend that you believe.

george · 3 years ago

A church and it's self-claimed pastors is supposed to represent trust, kindness, love, understanding, security, compassion, absolute truth.


Now people need to be forwarned before entering or becoming a member of this church.

There should be a sign that is clearly visible from the street saying.

WARNING MOTHER'S AND FATHER'S AND LITTLE CHILDREN!!!

BE WARNED THAT THIS CHURCH HAS A PASTOR OR PASTORS THAT HAVE BEEN ARRESTED FOR FELONY SEXUAL ASSAULT

PLEASE DO NOT BE ALONE WITH THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BE TRUSTED WITH LITTLE CHILDREN

JESUS SAVES, GOD LOVES YOU!

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Why do I think humanity is flawed? Because the Holocaust happened, because there are soldiers dying in Iraq, because there is abuse, adultery, because there is a genocide in Darfur, because less than 50 years ago there were Jim Crow laws, and even today the KKK .... Humans are imperfect, humans can suck, humans can be disgusting, I can be disgusting because I am imperfect. Humanity is flawed, thats why I need Christ. Immanuel Kant (one of the greatest philosophers ever as said by non-christians and christians) has a philosophy on this, not based on the Bible.

Obviously my saying this 4 or 5 times hasnt gotten through to some people that I believe God gave us, humanity, a way to address these flaws, understand ways to fight them, and be forgiven of them in the moments we fall. I am grateful for that.

And the more you guys talk the more and more I know that you have no clue what youre talking about when it comes to Greenwood Community Church. You know nothing about the subject therefor you cannot defend a position of that place is bad. What the pastor did was bad, but the church is not bad.

Yes, the church is supposed to represent truth, etc, but the church is formed by humans. YOU ARE IMPERFECT and other humans are imperfect, so how life plays out is then not the perfect ideal we wished we had.

How do I define perfect? All knowing, all powerful, able to create a universe, unconditionally loving, completely just and fair, but filled with grace and mercy. Indescribable and uncontainable. "I am that I am" Isaiah..... GOD.... perfect is GOD.

And here are all these people jumping to these assumptions of my age, how I came to believe what I believe. Perhaps it would interest you to know that I didnt believe because someone forced me or because someone brainwashed me. And maybe youre thinkg, shes just saying that because shes been brainwashed but youre wrong, I know my life, my story better than any of you. Its interesting it sounds to me like youve all left the faith due to harsh judgement (possibly ridicule and condemnation and I am sorry that people in the Church have treated you that way, its wrong. But they arent Jesus so they cant fully represent what it means to be Christ). Back to the harsh judgement points, I havent really judged any of you, I havent condemned you Im telling you what I believe and yet YOU are condemning ME for my beliefs? That is the definition of hipocricy, if you hate Christians because theyve judged you then you should hate yourselves because you judge Christians, and youve been doing it (atleast to me) in a fashion that I havent done to you. So you have no reason to judge me the way you do. And dont say to me, "well youre just like them" because you dont know who I am. You have no understanding of WHY my faith is so strong for all you know you and I may have had very similar painful problems, we just chose to handle them differently.


Have any of you guys read anything by Lee Strobel? He was an ATHEIST journalist for the Chicago tribune, Im pretty sure for almost a decade, and then he decided to look for historical evidence that could prove Christianity (he did this search in hopes and certainty that it would all come up crap) read his findings

Case for Christ
Case for the Creator
by: Lee Strobel

It still sounds to me like all of you guys are just angry. Full out pissed at the world, at people, at yourselves, at God, at something. No one is THIS angry without a reason. Anger, and constant debate with uneducated points that you just shoot out there because youre so damn pissed, that destroys people. You dont like Christians or religious people beacuse they "try and convert everyone" well this exchristian.net site and all your blogs, you guys are trying to convert me into someone who believes in nothing.

Think of this, if all Christians are bad, what do you think of Mother Theresa? A woman who brought poverty and famine to the forefront of the media and inspired people to serve those less fortunate (and she did that in honor of Christ). So was she bad? Was Mother Theresa stupid? Even people who arent Catholic or Christian call her a Saint.

Im going to say again. People are not Christ, Christ is Christ. Pastors are human so Pastors screw up. And how dare any of you say that Im trying to rationalize his actions. I think its disgusting, perverted, wrong, immoral, illegal, I think its the classic example of why human beings are imperfect and often wrong. BUT PEOPLE ARENT GOD. You cannot judge God off of people that are imperfect. You can not judge something perfect by what something imperfect does. That equation of logic and philosophy doesn't add up. Socrates admited to the Oracle that he was ignorant, not all knowing, imperfect and THAT is why the oracle called him wise. Because he admitted as a MORTAL, REGULAR human being that humans are imperfect. So how about you claim your imperfection before you start insulting other peoples'. And also, if you admitted your imperfections would you like it if people posted like 80 blogs about how much they think youre stupid, lame, dont know shit, because youre imperfect?

Melissa · 3 years ago

Oh WOW!

*As if merbear has said something unique or profound to teach others*

merbear is just so special for sucking on the Christ-candy
lull-lie-pop everyday and believes that after their death, he/she will be promoted to the greatest supremacy cult in the universe.

Yippee. Sorry for not clapping.

merbear was SOLD! to the super alien dude in the white linen robe with a bloody crown of thorns and zooms around in hyper space on a wooden cross!

Jewish, Christian, or Muslim.
They all practice elitist beliefs.
They all seek eternal perfection.
They all claim superiority over the other.

Keep on fighting....GOD needs US!
The all powerful "god" must rely upon worldly sinner man to help sell his PURE religious faith. Lazy ass god couldn't write his own damn book.

LMAO, you know that is too funny!

merbear, you love the plastic baby jesus and worship the special iconic wooden torture device that his god daddy invented just so baby jesus could one day be tortured and murdered to appease his own vengeful ways. Right?

merbear will do/say anything to defend its holy plasticness against us human loving apostates.

Ancient religious mythology is fictional fairytales. It's as simple as that. They come in thousands of varieties worldwide, all of it invented by mankind.

Why do you lack faith in Ahura Mazda or Zeus? Because they are...*drum roll please* ...
MYTHS!!! *TA DA*

Research ALL religious history, not just your watered down American Pie Conservative Christian Brand.

History can not be re-written to save your faith, sorry merbear.

Christianity is a copycat religion with a fraudulent savior stolen from prior Persian/Egyptian mythologies.

You should WANT to discover the honest truth for yourself. I hope one day soon you will find the courage within yourself to do so.

Til then, stop coming here to EX-CHRISTIAN.NET just to be preachy and self righteous. It gets old listening to you fundies show up here with the same redudant rhetoric and it oh so typical of the christian hate cult.

Been there, done that...studied biblical/religious history and found out why all religions rely on the words of a powerful preacher-man.

*sound of crickets chirping*

Never mind...the truth is much louder than the crickets.

Good luck KKKmerbearChristNazi!

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Everyone is imperfect, so you shouldnt have 80 blogs written about your damnation either.

Question: If some of you guys just flat out believe no God is out there and you are in control of everything, not just choices but everything, do you then consider yourself a god?

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Wow...MerBear sure sounds angry.

I guess if I had to defend the indefensible against a group of Ex-christians who know what the bible says better than she does, I might come across a bit angry too.

MerBear is still tucked too far inside her religious safety blanket...but maybe soon, when it starts to stifle her, she'll throw it off for good. One can only hope.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Merbear - you say nothing original. You just puke up the same old lines every single other christer who comes by here says. EVERYTHING. You say NOTHING new. NOTHING. We've heard this ALL. EVERY fucking thing you have said. Either go back and read the archives here, or shut the hell up, OK? And yes, I am pissed off. But not at you personally, ok? I know you like to think we hate christians which none of us really do, but I am tired of your unoriginal dribble - everything you have said is OLD NEWS. Get some new material or get lost. -Wes.

Astreja · 3 years ago

Merbear: Humanity is flawed, thats why I need Christ.

No, that's why one needs to arm oneself with reason and compassion, and work with the rest of humanity to make this world a better place.

Yes, the church is supposed to represent truth, etc, but the church is formed by humans.

Follow that to its logical conclusion, please: Therefore all churches and all religions are wastes of space because every last one of them is tainted with "imperfection."

How do I define perfect? All knowing, all powerful, able to create a universe, unconditionally loving, completely just and fair, but filled with grace and mercy.

Good luck in finding an actual being that meets those criteria without violating the Problem of Evil. A truly omnipotent being cannot be good; morally neutral at best. If it refuses to prevent tsunamis and earthquakes, and stands idly by while children are raped, it is not good.

It still sounds to me like all of you guys are just angry...

Yes, I am. Angry that adults frighten children with threats of hellfire. Angry that various church groups attempted to derail Canada's acceptance of same-sex marriage. Angry that the kid next door got ostracized by his classmates because he didn't go to the 8:55 a.m. "Lord's Prayer Group." Angry that Christian invaders murdered my ancestors' neighbours and forced an alien belief system upon them.

I turn 50 next year, Merbear. Not once have I experienced anything that could be attributed exclusively to the Christian concept of God. Not once. If this is an omnipotent being you're talking about, it has a weird way of manifesting in this world.

All I have to go on is the behaviour of "Christians," be they true or false Christians. And, quite frankly, I am underwhelmed.

Wes · 3 years ago

>> Everyone is imperfect, so you shouldnt have 80 blogs written about your damnation either.

Question: If some of you guys just flat out believe no God is out there and you are in control of everything, not just choices but everything, do you then consider yourself a god?
>>

Of course it's getting angry - it can't produce anything to prove its case! Just like all the rest! By the way - its last post was just so stupid, I think I am just going to ignore it. -Wes.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

MerBear,

I've visited plenty of Christian churches in my life. I don't have to physically step inside your church building to access the situation, because your church is like every church.

Human beings struggle and sin, but that doesn't prove the existance of Jesus Christ. Every religion talks about the depravity of the human being, and how a greater deity (or how we wish) can save us.

You have said nothing new, nor have you proven Jesus Christ is a God. There are many other religions and mythology of a man gaining God-like powers and rising from the dead.

But go ahead, your short-sighted redundancy only makes you weaker and discredits your religion. Bring it on, but we know the truth hurts. The sad truth that you gave everything to Jesus, only to find out the difficult way that Jesus was nothing more than a mythological figure.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

God and Jesus needs believers, without believers they are nothing!

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Merb... said: Why do I think humanity is flawed? Because the Holocaust happened, because there are soldiers dying in Iraq, because there is abuse, adultery, because there is a genocide in Darfur, because less than 50 years ago there were Jim Crow laws, and even today the KKK .... Humans are imperfect,

What you're talking about is violence and hatred. I would agree that those qualities of human nature are ugly, but they aren't "flawed." Those qualities are part of what brought us out of the jungle to dominate this planet. If we didn't have those "flaws" we'd be living like the Panda or extinct. We succeeded as a species, in part, because we were the meanest kind of monkey. So, our primitive natures are not a flaw, exactly, but they present definite problems when combined with our modern society, population and technology alongside with our dangerously primitive zeal for divisive religion.

How do I define perfect? All knowing, all powerful, able to create a universe, unconditionally loving, completely just and fair, but filled with grace and mercy. Indescribable and uncontainable. "I am that I am" Isaiah..... GOD.... perfect is GOD.

So, you didn't come up with your idea of perfection on your own, then. You were taught that some imaginary, invisible, impossible entity defines perfection. In contrast, you were also taught that you were designed by this perfect being but you are horrifically flawed. And if you don't habitually get on your knees in front of this fantastic entity, then there is nothing to be done with you but everlasting torture.

I'm glad you admit you were taught these deranged ideas. If you'd dreamed up on your own, that would be scary.

Have you read anything by Lee Strobel?

Yes, I'm embarrassed to admit, I have. Now, let me ask you, have you read anything besides books by Christians on the topics of religion, creationism, or Christianity? Have you ever read the history of Christianity or studied the competing theologies out there? Do you only choose to read Christian authors when you have the opportunity to read something?

Here's some interesting articles on Lee Strobel's work, but you probably shouldn't read them -- that would be bad for you -- I'm sure your newest youth leader would discourage it. However, for the sake of others who might be interested, click here.

People are not Christ, Christ is Christ.

People are people and the man that was mythologized into the fabled Christ was a person, and he is long dead.

BUT PEOPLE ARENT GOD. You cannot judge God off of people that are imperfect.

First off, this so-called perfect god made all people in HIS image, therefore I can most certainly judge GOD for the imperfect job HE did. If I am his made by him in his image, then I would have a pretty good idea of what he's all about, wouldn't I? However, in reality, your god only exists in the imaginations of those who believe in him. In fact, this perfect god of yours is so pathetically weak, that he can't even make this horribly blasphemous website go away. Go ahead, ask him to do it. Ask him to shut done this perversity of a website. He can't. Just like he couldn't help your girlfriend at church. The reason he can't do anything is because he doesn't exist.

I sincerely apologize for the comment about growing hair on your face, since you are a girl. However, it is painfully obvious from your writing that you are a teen.

Have a nice day.

Alan · 3 years ago

merbear -

Your conception of God is exactly that, a conception, an idea, a mental construct. It is what you think God should be, but others have described God differently, and I can find Bible verses that support your view and others that contradict it. Nobody is saying man is perfect or is in control of the universe, or that we are a race of gods. But religion holds us back by promoting the idea that we have to be "saved" by an external being. YOU are the one that is improving yourself by trying to behave morally, and although you may need to believe a higher power is at work, the truth is you are the one with that power. Its easy to assume that only religion can confer ethics and morality, but that is not true, and we are capable of moving beyond our primitive superstitious beliefs and living according to reason. You say you have evidence of God's existence despite your unanswered prayers, but the only "evidence" anyone ever has is psychological in nature and can be easily explained without referring to any divine being. If you absolutely have to believe in the supernatural no one can stop you, but perhaps one day instead of accepting what you have been told you will apply some critical thinking to religion. You will find it does not hold up under scrutiny, which it would if it were true.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Out of curiosity, NOT looking for debate, judgement, whatever, just a question:

Do you guys believe in hope? If so, where does your hope come from? If it comes from the goodness of people, what gives people the ability to be good (and bad)? I dont see any science that proves that theres a neuron or a cell that gives people the ability to be good and moral, where did the concept of morality (for you) come from? So, if you believe in hope, where does your concept of hope come from? What makes you feel like you can have hope that people can change (examples: where does your hope come from that world poverty can be solved or can be improved, etc).

Again, Where does your hope come from, and how did you find it?
(This is only a question for believe who believe in hope or situations or people being able to better themselves).

None of this question or statement insults, ridicules, or debates anyone, it is just a question someone of a different belief system is asking one of another.

I know where my hope comes from, where does yours?

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Why do you find the concept of being loved so hard?

kenny · 3 years ago

MerBear hope for what? Do you want to walk on streets of gold and diamonds and jewels, what good is that, they are just material things.

Do you want to walk beside Jesus, do you realize that if there is a heaven and millions of people will also want to walk beside Jesus too.

Please do not say we are judging you, so far we have not, this is the same ploy used constantly by christians they play the ole persecution card.

We've all done the very same thing, unless you have not noticed this is a ex-xtain site, meaning we thought we were true xtains just like you at one time, so we know all the christian cons and excuses.

Now the word "hope" it's just a four letter word, it has no bearing on reality.

Hope, means something longed for, a wish, a desire, a distraction from reality.

We hope the Sun rises tomorrow, if it does not then there's not a damned thing anyone can do about it.

I hope I win the lottery, but I never buy tickets, so I'm not too disappointed that did not win.

To hope something happens in your favor is practicaly almost zilch, zip, nada.

So you're asked to pray that your desires or wishes will become true, but that is the reason you're asked to pray, so as to distract you from present reality.

There's never been one prayer answered in the history of the world and to deny this, means you're in denial of the truth.

Why do you refuse to see that the Bible is a distraction from reality to keep people from questioning the teachings to control masses of people and to con people out of their money?

It's a promise for things longed for, a hope that it becomes true, but it never does.

We got tired of all the hidden promises and all the false hope and pumping money into the pockets of the preachers.

If Billy Graham and other preachers weren't filthy rich from bilking people of their money he would be digging dithces for a living and he knows this.

Jesus supposedly said, sell all that you have and give to the poor, how many preachers do you know that have done this? They do not preach this they preach, give, give, give!

And do not mention Mother Teresa, she died with over 10 million dollars in her bank account.

The same for all other preachers too, they are all crooks, bar/none.

Time to grow up MerBear, and see things for what they are, not what you want to believe and not what other people want you to believe.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

For three years now over spring break I've gone to Mexico on a mission trip, and I have yet to meet anybody happier than the people I met their. The people we stayed with had hearts bigger than anyone I know. When you looked into their eyes you saw love. Their names were Juan and Carmen and they are the poorest people I know. Carmen's first husband was a drug attict and died in an alley way behind her house, Juan spent his days driving around in a hot car advertising through a large microphone. The neighberhood streets were filled with dirt, trash, and the occasional dead dog. You could play basketball, if you watched out for the glass that's spread out over the court. They have next to nothing and yet they preach with all their hearts. Do they get a large paycheck? No, they get rejection. What little money they do get Carmen spends on food for the children at a nearby school. I guarantee you if you go and meet these people you will not be able to deny the love of God.

Almost all the preachers you see on TV and movies etc. are going to be fake, well no duh, they're on tv. People ask how can God exist when there is so much poverty, I have never seen so many kids smile than I have in Chihwaua Mexico, and they have next to nothing, well according to our society's standards, but in reality they have more than anyone can imagine.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Somebody said something regarding the Colombine incident and how evil Colorado is. First of all have you seen the beauty of the Rocky Mountains. Second, One of the shooters put a gund to one of the girls heads. He asked her, "do you believe in Jesus?" She could have said no, heck she probably could have said nothing and would have been fine. She said yes. And you're going to tell me she died for nothing?

Wes · 3 years ago

>> Why do you find the concept of being loved so hard?
>>

I don't. Why? Do you wanna love me? Are you a nice looking woman? If so, post a pic! -Wes.

Wes · 3 years ago

>>And you're going to tell me she died for nothing?
>>

Yup. Sorry. Given that "she probably could have said nothing and would have been fine"... -Wes.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

I was the one to criticize Colorado. First, about the Columbine shooting, they shot everyone they could. Even if that girl said no to Jesus, she would have been shot dead anyway.

Once again, you're digressing. This does not prove the existance of Jesus.

I've been to Colorado, and it is a beautiful place on the surface. However, outside beauty always seems to have a price in the real world, which is what I was bringing up.

The book, The Time Machine, by H.G. Wells summarizes Colorado. In the book, the beautiful Eloi race live in the upper world - beautiful, fair, playful, carefree. But in reality, the Morlocks in the underworld provide all their food and living for them. The price the Eloi must pay is that, during the night, the Morlocks surface to the upper world, kidnap some Eloi, then eat them for their food.

That's what the right-wing megachurches of Colorado. In the outside, you have all these happy, beautiful worshippers. However, there is a price, as the lies, threats, hypocrisy, and suppression (especially sexally) consistently causes a certain segment of the population to become demented and evil.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Responding to Kenny, what about the preacher my Dad knows who delivers bibles in a communist country. First of all he pays to do it, second his life is on the line.

boomSLANG · 3 years ago

Responding to Anonymous---surely someone delivering Christian bibles in a country where their life is "on the line" shouldn't be a concern, should it?....after all, they've got the best insurance policy out there..."Godco Direct". And lord knows, insurance costs money...... so that's why he "pays to do it". And hell, if he gets blown up in the process?....it was part of Godco's plan, right? Sounds like a win/win policy to me. Where do I find that talking gecko?...or wait, was it a serpent? Sssssssssss! lol

Astreja · 3 years ago

Hope? No, thank you. I prefer to look reality in the eye.

Want to be loved? Not by an imaginary being legendary for its world-drowning hissy fits. If such an entity as the Biblical god actually existed (which I doubt very, very much), I would prefer to go without love altogether than to accept a single thing from that monster.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Anony: "And you're going to tell me she died for nothing?"

Define what it means to die for something as opposed to nothing.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

To the person who wrote about Juan and Carmen: Ive done 3 missions trips to Juarez and they truly are inspiring

If you dont believe in hope, and love is full of crap than what is the reason to live? Why do you continue to live when you have no reason, no hope, no love, I mean its all an "illusion" and obviously reality sucks, so why would you get out of bed in the morning?

And by the way, when a person dies for a cause it shows they have courage and the balls to stand up for what they believe in, despite the consequences, because they know the persecution is done out of ignorance and hatred. That young girl at Columbine is a martyr (and if you dont think shes a martyr shes still a young girl who died unjustly), let her rest in peace rather than say that she died for a pointless cause. Have some humane respect for the dead, seriously, I dont care if you believe in God or not, show respect for people who have died in tragedy and get off your soap box for one second.

MerBear(my sn is no longer working)

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

My hope comes from within me.

I don't need an invisible friend with imaginary promises and threats to have hope.

Hope is part of human nature.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

And by the way, when a person dies for a cause it shows they have courage and the balls to stand up for what they believe in, despite the consequences, because they know the persecution is done out of ignorance and hatred.

Amen sister! That's why the Muslims who flew the planes into New York and the suicide bombers in Iraq have it right!

There can be no doubt that religion makes idiots out of people. And this poor ignorant believer is a prime example of religious mind-numbed lunacy.

Ugh.

Astreja · 3 years ago

Merbear, regarding Columbine, google "Cassie Bernall" + "urban legend". The jury is still out on what actually happened on that day, but it appears that the tales told about this young woman may not be true.

As for having respect for the dead, may I respectfully point out that the Ex-C regulars were *not* the ones who raised the above issue. That said, now that it's been raised we will address it.

My perspective is that "dying for a cause" ultimately matters more to the living than to the dead. Perhaps in the process of dying one can glean momentary satisfaction, but after death all knowledge of that act ceases. It is the survivors, with their still-active memories of the deceased, who desire peace and closure.

Under normal circumstances, I see nothing wrong with respecting this.

However, if those same survivors attempt to make an icon out of a deceased individual, and spin false tales with the intention of shaming and upsetting other people, I no longer feel any obligation to respect the memory of the dead. The social contract was broken at the telling of the first lie, and from that moment onward it's every man for himself.

Love is definitely *not* crap. I regularly experience it.

And I enjoy my life *because* it's of such short duration. I consider it likely that various molecules from my body will eventually be physically reconstituted into other living beings. In the meantime I have fun and try not to get too attached to "me." I'm not the same "me" that I was yesterday, let alone 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. Go back fifty years, and "me" disappears entirely. Go forward, same thing. No big deal.

As to hope... My favourite quote on the subject is from Margaret Weis, spoken by Raistlin Majere near the end of the novel Dragons of Autumn Twilight ...

Hope is the denial of reality. It is the carrot dangled before the draft horse to keep him plodding along in a vain attempt to reach it.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

The people who flew planes into the twin towers and blew up buildings, they werent by the hands of persecuters, they were at the hands of themselves. Suicide due to belief is different than murderous persecution at the hands of another. COMPELTELY different, the people who died in the Holocaust because they were Jewish at the hands of the Nazi is different than people who flew planes into towers at the hands of themselves. The two are on completely different spectrums

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Merbear,

If you are the anonymous who asked “Define what it means to die for something as opposed to nothing.”

How about if I define it this way? I had a cousin who was a fighter pilot in the RAF. He died in August 1941 defending Great Britain and the subjects of his majesty. He died for something; the freedom of those in the UK who were not conquered by the Nazis.

Does that definition work?

Anonymous · 3 years ago

The Christian says, 'Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists.' A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.- C.S. Lewis


Stormblade

Anonymous · 3 years ago

I do not belive in wind because I see wind but instead because I see the effects of wind. As such, I do not believe in God because I see God but instead I believe in God because I see the effects of God.


Stormblade

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Stormblade,

So you do "believe" in the wind? Does the wind threaten to throw you in hell if you stop believing in it?

Just because YOU believe in somethng certainly does not mean we should be sucked into your belief orbit, does it?

Astreja · 3 years ago

The wind is tangible. It consists of molecules of oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide and many other gases. Being a form of matter, it can collide with other matter such as windowpanes, tall grass and clothing hanging on the clothesline in the back yard.

"God" is not only intangible but undetectable in the electromagnetic spectrum. That may change as we develop more sophisticated scientific instrumentation, but if we can't detect *anything* there, it may be because there isn't anything to detect.

Stormblade, kindly provide an example of an "effect of God" so that we can determine what's really causing it. (Hint: It's probably not an invisible intangible imaginary being.)

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Stormblade: "If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.- C.S. Lewis"

See you in the world of hell, or does hell not exist?

Blade-Runner

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Warnepiece: "Merbear, If you are the anonymous who asked “Define what it means to die for something as opposed to nothing.”

Sorry, was in a hurry, that was moi's question to Merbear :-)

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Anony: "The people who flew planes into the twin towers and blew up buildings, they werent by the hands of persecuters, they were at the hands of themselves."

Jesus (per se), knew he was going to die, and allowed himself to be killed. Therefore, he persecuted himself, no?

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Blade-Runner,

No problem. I saw two anonys and Merbear signed the second one. I took a chance the first one was hers too.

I like your point about jesus. It was assisted suicide since he knew what was coming and went along with the game plan.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

And to think, the topic that generated all this impressive amateur evangelism is about a pastor who admitted to having sex with a teen girl.

Oh, and many Muslims do think they are being persecuted and do believe that if they lose their life for Allah, that they are holy martyrs.

It doesn't make any difference what you or I think about it, that's what they believe with all their hearts, just like you believe in your magical jesus-man-god with all your heart.

Religion is kooky and makes people crazy.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

MerBear says we eXchristians have no respect for the dead?!?!?!?

MerBear, you dimwitted lying hypocrite, one reason people leave the fabled mythology of Christianity is because you Christofascists have bigotry and lack of respect of people different than you.

Do you know who Fred Phelps is? Google his name, he is the fundamentalist Christian pastor from Topeka, Kansas to protests at American soldier's funerals because their sexuality does not conform to his. That's major disrespect.

Or how you cult Christians secretly show scorn for others who have died and did not accept your cult mythological figure Jesus as their savior. That's major disrespect.

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

MerBear: "The people who flew planes into the twin towers and blew up buildings, they werent by the hands of persecuters, they were at the hands of themselves."

MerBear, here's a little gift of rhythmic prosody just for you - take your pick of the two.

If your God is not the God of "All",
Then your God, is not a God for all.

- or -

If your God is a God for "All",
Then your God, is a God of "All".

-----------------------------------

MerBear, if your god is a God of "All", then your God is responsible for the following;

-Pastoral Sex Acts with a Minor
-World Trade Center
-Jewish Holocaust
-Columbine Massacre

MerBear, dare or care to attempt repair, of that which we know as the Christian corsair?

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Bladrunner, do you believe in free will?


-Stormblade

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Storkblade: "Bladrunner, do you believe in free will?"

Free Will: "Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/free%20will

So, you are asking me if my personal conduct and ability to make choices in life, is totally and absolutely independent from both physical and divine forces in my life.

If you can't describe what a divine force is, it appears natural forces are all that exist.

If you can't show dominance or omnipotence of humanity over natural forces, then there is no dominance, that precludes humanity's ability to exert it's "will" freely.

If humanity isn't dominant because they are an interlaced part of nature, then there is interdependence and humanity is involved in a relationship where compromise exists. A relationship built on compromise, is not a relationship where one partner has absolute "free will" - it's shared interaction.

And, the religious person generally believes that a dominant god exists, and controls the universe. If a god exists, and is all powerful, then a god's interaction or non-interaction is a "will" control mechanism, as it reduces the individual's number of decisions available to them.

In short, there Storkblade, I have more free will than you, because I have more options/choices available to me. The more weight you assign to a deity being involved in your life, the tighter the “will” control, the reduced number of decisions, and basically the submission of your being as one with the ability to take credit for anything in life. When you give “all” to Jesus, you give “all”, to include all “free will”. So, how much “free will” do you have there Storkblade?

Anonymous · 3 years ago

You asked somebody earlier why do bad things happen such as colombine, well it's because gave us free will.


-Stormblade

You · 3 years ago

Stormblade: "You asked somebody earlier why do bad things happen such as colombine, well it's because gave us free will."

Free will was "given"? Can you describe what "free will" looks like, I need to go pick some more up from the store.

Price check for "free will" on isle nine.

Stormblade, did someone give you your "favorite" color? If not, then go pick it up, there's a sale, and it's on isle ten - just one isle down from "free will" on isle nine.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

he gave us the ability to choose what we want, instead of forcing us to be good he gave us the ability to choose whether or not we wanted to follow him. Free Will, the freedom to have our own will in things.

-Stormblade

Astreja · 3 years ago

More likely, Stormblade, your god simply does not exist outside your own mind.

Perhaps in that maze of contradictions phrases like "he gave us the ability to choose" make sense. To me it just sounds like an attempt to rationalize the erratic behavior of an indefensible or completely absent god.

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Stormblade: "he gave us the ability to choose what we want, instead of forcing us to be good he gave us the ability to choose whether or not we wanted to follow him. Free Will, the freedom to have our own will in things."

Interesting... Did your god not create All? If so, then your god created your future. If he created your future, then your god is aware of all of your actions in life. This means, you have no will in things, you are living your life, "exactly" and deliberately as you were created to. If you accept your god as all powerful and all knowing, then your belief in free will is an illusion.

If you choose to say that the illusion of free will is "real", then you are living in a self-induced delusion.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Yes God is all knowing but that doesn't mean he chooses for me. If I was an intelligent person and I went to lunch with a friend of mine and he loved burgers so he orders a burger. I know he's going to eat the burger, but I didn't choose for him to eat the burger he chose that himself. God didn't choose for man to fall, he didn't choose for lucifer to turn against him. He knew it would happen but he didn't choose for it to happen.

-Stormblade

Wes · 3 years ago

Sooo- thousands and thousands of years ago, 'god' knew exactly what was going to unfold in our time, and, at present, 'he' even knows exactly how humanity will evolve thousands of years from now, right? He knows this information because 'he' is supposedly omnicient, right? That must mean that in the very instant of 'creation', 'he' knew exactly every event that would ever unfold, including who and who isn't going to go and be with 'him' in heaven, right? So - tell me - why bother? How stupid. It's like watching the same damn movie every night. Hey - If 'He' knows the outcome of every decision already; 'he' already knows who is going where, and when they are going; where, exactly, is the free will? If 'god' knows what I'm going to do tomorrow after work, then I have no choice but to do as he knows will happen. There IS no free will using your logic. Free will by definition asserts that the outcome cannot possibly be predicted - it means that I can FREELY choose whatever outcome I want. BUT.. Using your funny logic, I CANNOT possibly do what 'he' doesn't already know I WILL do! What the hell? Sorry. Your argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. -Wes.

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Did anyone else catch Stormblade’s revealing statement “If I was an intelligent person…”

The rest of his post makes such bizarre twists and turns it came out as a pretzel.

But I love his last line “He (God) knew it would happen (the involvement of Lucifer) but he didn't choose for it to happen.” So god knew what was going to happen and didn’t do a damn thing about it. If god is the creator of all, Stormblade, then who is to blame?

Wes · 3 years ago

Awww, hell. My brain hurts trying to understand how someone can think that way. I guess being frightened of a mythical 'hell' will cause people to rationalize anything that they think might keep them away from those 'eternal flames' us unbelievers are gonna get thrown in! Ha! -Wes.

Wes · 3 years ago

...if me as a teacher knew in advance what my students were going to get at the end of the year, do you really think I'd bother? If I knew the marks that each of them would receive on any one of my exams, pray tell - why would I go through the motions and stress? Hell! Here's your marks! Fuck off!! -Wes.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

I was watching my kids play in the middle of State Route 20. An 18-wheeler was bearing down on them, and I could predict exactly what was going to happen.

However, I'd told my kids 1,000 times, "DON'T PLAY IN THE STREET!" So, it was their choice, and now they are just greasy stains in the road.

Even though I could have prevented the tragedy, and I even watched while it happened, the DA and the Judge agreed it wasn't my fault. They said it was just the kids exercising their free will. Everyone in the courtroom agreed that no one should interfere with freewill, no matter what.

Christianity, the cereal of Champions.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Because God knows something is going to happen doesn't mean he chooses for that something to happen. Let's say I'm watching a weather forecast, the wearther reporter tells me it's going to rain tomorrow, I know it's going to rain tomorrow but I didn't choose for it to rain.
As for the eighteen wheeler, God saw us playing in sin (the highway) as death (the eighteen wheeler) came barreling towardsd us. He had every right to let us get run over for we chose death but instead he sent his son (Jesus) to come push us out of the way of the eighteen wheeler and took our place.

-Stormblade

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Wes, if you were a teacher you would know that it's what the students learn that's important not the grades he/she gets.

-Stormblade

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

He had every right to let us get run over for we chose death

I know. That's exactly what the judge at my trial said. He said, "You had every right to let that 18-wheeler squash your kids in the road, because your kids were little devils!"

Yup, my judge is just like a god!

but instead he sent his son (Jesus) to come push us out of the way of the eighteen wheeler and took our place.

Yeah, but if you don't love HIM back, he gets really pissy. And then, instead of just being a greasy stain in the road, like my bad little children, you get tortured forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever... you get the point.

I mean, if you don't kiss this God's ass and worship his dead-for-a day-and-a-half son-of-a-virgin, well then, just forget mercy, forget justice, forget the punishment fitting the crime -- you are royally f***ed for all of eternity! And do you know why?

DO YOU KNOW WHY?

Because... God loves you. That's why.

Stormwarden, If I know there is a bomb about to explode in your toilet and say nothing about it, then I share responsibility for whatever happens. Your god knows everything and does absolutely nothing. Therefore your god is a heinous monster, created in the demented, cruel, sun-baked brains of barely out of the Stone Age savages.

I just can't believe that a Christian would choose to argue about freewill vs. determinism, or Arminianism vs. Calvinism on a topic that's about a Pastor who was screwing a teen girl.

What is it about porking young kids that brings out the theology in some people?

Stormblade, my ass. More like Pervertpole.

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

According to Stormblade, God knows certain things will happen, and lets them happen anyway because god, in his infinite wisdom, didn’t CHOOSE them.

Then what the hell good is he?

You know a Pastor rapist is going to attack your little sister, but since you didn’t choose to have him attack her, you let it happen, because you didn’t want to make a choice that could have prevented it? What kind of a jerk is it you believe in Storm’?

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Does nothing? not more than a week ago I saw this girl that had been the victim surrounded by a group of people who loved her and I saw her give communion and give her life to Christ, I saw her comferted, I saw tears of forgiveness and joy streaming down her face. Does nothing? Oh contrar, he does more than you can ever imagine. Does nothing, tell that to the countless people who have been freed from drugs, alcohol, diseases etc. I have seen these things happen before my very eyes. Does nothing? I think not.

-Stormblade

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Storm’, are you actually telling us that this girl, who was assaulted by her pastor, was MEANT to be assaulted because that is what god wanted to happen since he COULD have prevented it but he chose not to interfere?

How can you claim he does more than we can imagine WHEN HE WON’T EVEN STOP THIS FROM HAPPENING???

I’ve seen people overcome drugs, alcohol, tobacco, even fatty foods without calling on any deities; they just overcame it and went on with their lives. I’ve seen plenty that killed themselves in the process too. So what?

As long as your god continues to do nothing, and avoids making choices, we won’t be any worse off.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

She wasn't meant to have this happen to her just as adam and eve were'nt meant to sin. It's because of free wiil that these things happen. If God stopped all things bad from happening in the world than love and good would be useless, people would just be like dolls programmed to say "i love you".

-Stormblade

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Stormblade: "Yes God is all knowing but that doesn't mean he chooses for me."

Your god created "all" that includes your future. Stormblade, what does "future" mean to you?

Your god created you, knowing you were going to choose a certain way, thus, you believe you have a choice, but your choices and decisions are already known to an omniscient god.

Your "god", made you exactly as he wanted, and he made you knowing your future, future means, your decisions, choices, and everything else.

Stormblade: "Does nothing? Oh contrar, he does more than you can ever imagine. Does nothing, tell that to the countless people who have been freed from drugs, alcohol, diseases etc. I have seen these things happen before my very eyes. Does nothing? I think not."

If your god is all powerful/omnipotent, all knowing/omniscient, then your god created these people to be freed from their drugs, alcohol, and everything else. However, he also created them to be addicted to drugs, alcohol, and everything else to begin with. These people never had a choice, or "free will", they became addicted to drugs, just like the god created them to be addicted, as well, your god created them to be released from drug addiction, just as he created them to be, and he knew this while he was creating them.

You don't have free will on this blog, your god created you, purposely knowing you would be on this blog and exactly what you would say. You may think you have "free will", but you don't, unless you are suggesting that your "free will" over-rides the "free will" of your god and his intentions for you at the time of the creation of the universe.

For you to suggest you have "free will", there Stormblade, is to suggest you have more power and control over your life, than your god did, when he created you.

Your very statement that you have "free will" challenges your god's authority. You contradict yourself when you say you have "free will", but your god is "all powerful", and "all knowing".

If you choose to live a life based on contradiction, then you are delusional either in regard to your god's authority, or your ability to have "free will".

If your god is truly all powerful and all knowing, then your free will is an "illusion".

If your god, is not truly all powerful and all knowing, then your god is not a god of all.

You don't get it both ways there Stormblade, you can't have free will, with a god that is all knowing at the time he deliberately created you and this universe. Trying to refocus this topic onto specific events in your life, does not remove the contradiction.

Many don't find it beneficial to live a life based on belief alone. Moreover, many don't find it beneficial to hold onto beliefs that are contradictory.

That's why, there dear Stormblade, many have chosen to accept some level of "free will" in their life, and discard the "other" belief that contradcits "free will" - an omniscient and omnipotent god. You see, "I" believe I have some level of "free will" in my life, because I don't believe in a "god" that is omniscient and omnipotent, the christian doesn't get that option without contradicting themselves - self-induced illusional delusion.

Astreja · 3 years ago

Stormblade, "free will" vs. programmed dolls is a false dichotomy.

If a friend of mine had car trouble and phoned me, I would not be violating my friend's free will when I showed up with booster cables.

If a stray cat shows up at my back door, hungry and mewing, I do not violate its free will by opening a can of cat food and setting out some water and a cardboard box for it to sleep in.

If some jerk steals an old lady's purse, I do not violate her free will by chasing the bastard down, pummeling him unconscious, and returning the purse to its rightful owner.

The only possible excuse your god could have for its reprehensible lack of action is... nonexistence.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Bladerunner, you said God created people so they would become addicted to drugs and such, no, God created them in his own image holy and pure, it was our fall into sin that destroyed this image of God that we as people are supposed to bear.

As for free will, you're getting mixed in between the idea of control and freedom. God doesn't have control over my decisions. He knows what I'm going to do but that doesn't mean he chooses what I do. He doesn't choose for me to eat or not to eat, he doesn't choose for me to sleep or not. He created all, meaning he created different choices, an example is like a food court at a mall. The mall being God, the different restaruants that the mall(God) created are the different choices in life. I walk into the food court and I decide to eat pizza. God knows I will choose to eat pizza even before I enter the food court(life.) The mall didn't choose for me to eat pizza but it did create all the restaruants that I could possibly eat from. Sin would be as if I chose not to eat at all and then starved.


-Stormblade

Anonymous · 3 years ago

astreja, your missing the point, take a step back in perspective. If your friend asked you to help and you were forced to do it than your free will would be violated. You wouldn't be doing it out of friendship or love you would be doing it because you were forced to do it. Free will is the choice to either help your friend or not.


-Stormblade

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Stormblade: "Bladerunner, you said God created people so they would become addicted to drugs and such, no, God created them in his own image holy and pure, it was our fall into sin that destroyed this image of God that we as people are supposed to bear."

Dude/Dudette, talk about taking a step back in perspective. Are you suggesting that your all powerful god, didn't know that Eve would bite the apple? Did your god not "create" Eve? If your god created "Eve", and knew she would bite the apple, then your "god", created the future of humanity - because per the Christian tradition, all humanity is born of that "sin" which was propagated in a garden a few thousand years ago.

Consider the "apple" in the garden to be the anathema/drugs to humanity. If you believe your god is all powerful and all knowing, all knowing means he can see the "future" BEFORE he created Adam and eve, then, your god built Eve to be exactly as she should have been - a sinful woman to condemn the entirety of the human race for eating an "apple".

In more simple terms, we can not be anything "more" than what your "god" has made us to be. Eve may have thought she had a choice in her life, and thus those choices allowed her to perceive that she could exert her influence on her surroundings "freely" according to her "will", but she had a god that created her who was all knowing, who built her to be exactly the way she was meant to act.

Stormblade, do you believe your "god" was "surprised" when Eve bit the apple? Your "god", just wasn't aware that Eve would bite the "apple"? Of course not, you believe your "god", knew, and all I am suggesting is... he knew long before he made Eve that she would bite the apple. Yet, "HE" still created her, and thus, created an outcome that he already knew about.

At what point do you believe your "god", knew Eve was going to bite the apple?

1-Before he made Eve
2-While he was making Eve
3-After he made Eve

I'm taking the Christian perspective (not my personal perspective), and giving their "god" all credit for being all knowing and all powerful.

Most people plan before they make something, I find it amusing your god, just had no clue what he was planning to make and what the outcome would be on a day to day basis. You are considered sinful Stormblade because your "god" created Eve, knowing she would pass on Sin to every generation, to include you - you are exactly as your god made you - sinful.

Here's another question for you, who existed first; god or Satan? If god did, then he created Satan knowing he would be evil - Satan had no free will. Here is the next question? Did Hell exist first or humanity? If Hell, then your god created humanity knowing those who would be attending Hell, thus there are people who your god knew before he created them that they would be attending the cosmological school of hell - thus we have no "free will" or control over our lives.

If your god is truly all powerful and all knowing, then your free will is an "illusion".

If your god is not truly all powerful and all knowing, then your god is not a god of all. In short, your god created this universe, and everything in it, with randomness - it's called chaos. Most Christians however, don't believe god played dice with the universe, thus, it's exactly the way it's supposed to be, according to its maker.

You don't get it both ways there Stormblade; you can't have free will, with a god that is all knowing at the time he deliberately created you and this universe.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

You're not going to get through to this guy or gal. He or she can't even figure out how to click the "other" button and post "other" than anonymous. How in the world will she or he figure out something more complex, when the most simple escapes her or him?

Oh well.

Stormy,

Your pastor freely chose to inseminate a minor. Your emotionally charged church friends chose to surround the girl with religiously motivated compassion and ply her with grape juice and stale bread. She probably needs professional counseling, but your church friends are more than likely sincere, even if naive.

It was a person who victimized the young lady, and it is people who are trying to reach out to her. There is no god involved.

Thousands and thousands of people die every year from disease, starvation, floods, volcanoes, earthquakes, land slides, tornadoes, hurricanes, fires, freezing temperatures, high heat... the list is long. Your god does nothing to make any of it stop. In fact, if your god exists, HE created all these forces of nature that destroy human lives. The only relief from all these destructive powers of "God's creation" comes from people.

The thing about freewill, Storm, is something as intelligent as your so-called god would surely have been inventive enough to preserve freewill without having to create the horrors in the world today.

The universe is a harsh place, and people don't like feeling they are not in control, so they create gods who they imagine are in control of everything. It's more comforting to think a big daddy in the sky is running the show than to think we have to stand on our own and have to decide whether to help or hurt our fellow humans.

Ultimately there is NO freewill in Christianity. "For every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess..."

My knee will never bow freely, and my tongue will not confess. So, someone will have to force me to bow. And being forced to bow by an angry, vengeful, dictatorial deity is not freewill.

Read Ephesians 1 and Romans 9. There is no freewill in Christianity. Everything is foreordained, from the foundation of the world.

And that means all the horror in the world was predetermined to happen in the mind of your god. We are just running the script in his heavenly movie. And like any good story, there's lots of pain, tragedy, and obstacles to overcome. Unlike a story I'd write, most of the characters are going to end up roasting in the pit of God's everlasting love for all eternity.

Thank the universe that your god is imaginary.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

I just noticed another of Stormy's posts:

If God stopped all things bad from happening in the world than love and good would be useless, people would just be like dolls programmed to say "i love you".

Stormy, that's really dumb.

By that logic, I should be making sure lots of horrific things happen to my wife and kids, so that I can be sure they have freely chosen to love me. Otherwise, if only good stuff is happening, they are just robots, programmed to love me?

That doesn't make any sense at all.

God doesn't want people to freely choose him. He wants to display his wrath and his love and his anger and his mercy and his justice and his power on the world stage of judgment day. He needs victims and lovers for HIS great and wonderful pageant play. It's all about the Glory of the Lord -- it has nothing to do with freewill vs. robots.

Proverbs 16:4 -- The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Rev 4:11 -- Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

So, from here, we see that the wicked (all who reject Jesus) were created for HIS pleasure on the day of evil (Judgment Day).

Your God supposedly created all the circumstances, all the human weaknesses, and all the forces of nature that bring pain and suffering into the lives of untold billions of people. And HE did it all just so HE'd be able to tell sincere love from feigned love?

Listen Storm, if my kids choose to hate me one day, I won't torture them for it. I'll let them go.

How come your god can't let anything go? I mean, you don't really think a bunch of unbelievers are a threat to him do you?

It's all nonsense, but when your brain is washed in the blood, the most bizarre things seem true.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

God doesn't have control over my decisions.

Romans 9: 17-23 -- For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Christianity clearly teaches that God has control over EVERYTHING, including your little decisions, Stormy.

Go ahead, ask your pastor to explain these verses. I have a feeling you've never heard a single sermon on this topic. And when you talk to him, he'll squirm. If he does give you an answer, it'll do everything it can to contradict the plain words in those sentences which say God hardens the hearts of some and softens the hearts of others, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. And he does this for his own ego stroking. And since HE's the creator-boss, HE is justified doing whatsoever HE likes with his toys, or pots, as Paul says.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

if [...] you were forced to do it than your free will would be violated.

Isaiah 45:23 -- I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Romans 14:11 -- For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

So much for freewill. Everyone is going to bow. Everyone. Everyone.

And those who are FORCED bow, will subsequently be thrown into the lake of fire, to be mercilessly tormented throughout all of eternity.

Freewill?

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Christians are funny. It's all right there, but they don't want to see it.

You worship a dictator. Get used to it.

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Stormblade: "God doesn't have control over my decisions."

Isn't that special. A human can train a pet to salivate at the sound of a bell, I wonder if the dog ever wonders why they salivate when the bell rings?

Why would we think that humanity is no more than a cosmological pet to an all powerful and all knowing god?

I agree WM, the god of the bible is indeed a dictator. Stormy, is having to look at the implications of what we are talking about in context to their belief. Here's how it's boiling down in my mind.

-If god is all powerful, and all knowing, then humanity has no free will, it's an illusion.
-If humanity has no free will, then humanity is predestined
-If humanity is predestined, then salvation by grace, and being washed in the cannibalistic ritual of blood is no longer valid
-If salvation is no longer required, because everyone is predestined, the Jesus is no longer divine
-If Jesus is no longer divine, then of course, Christianity is an illogical and unnecessary religion
-If Christianity is a farse, and illogical, then humanity will eventually figure it out reading the Christian doctrine
-If Christians find out that the Christian doctrine is invalid, and the religious beliefs are illogical, then they may choose to leave Christianity
-If a Christian leaves Christianity, they may well be what we have come to know as an Ex-Christian

So, Stormy, wants an all powerful god who is all knowing and all powerful, because it takes an all knowing and all powerful god to be the protector, savior, and comforter they need... because that is what they have been told they needed since childhood. Now when someone rings the god bell, they feel all warm and fuzzy inside, on demand. A typical script for Sunday @ church;

Pastor - Rings God Bell @ pulpit, saying god about twenty times, at the initial prayer, and throws god in whenever people start looking bored or losing focus

Church Members - Slobber, Slobber, feeling all warm and fuzzy, each time god is mentioned

Choir - In between the "god" statements, the tactfully placed song in stereo; James Brown, "I feel good", for maximum effect

And, it's all good, until someone stops to think; gee, wonder why I'm slobbering each time this dude says "god"? Member covers their ears, and no slobber, they uncover their ears, drool, drool, and a discovery is made, and all kinds of questions start coming up.

Stormy, wants to hold onto that warm fuzzy drool tool, but doesn't want to believe the same drool tool creates the paradox of predestination. It creates a cognitive dissonance, where the balance of warm & fuzzy has to compete with non-conflicted rational thought.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

God is all powerfull, he very well could destroy us all, or force us all to worship him, but he doesn't. The simple fact that God is all powerfull doesn't mean he uses or abuses that power.

Consider this way, let's say superman was real, he would have the power to kill every single person in the world, he could hold the world at ransom and force everybody to bow down to him and worship him. Why doesn't he? simply because he chooses not to. In the same way God chooses not to violate our free will by forcing us to worship or follow him. God is all powerfull, that doesn't mean he chooses to display or use that power.

The U.S. has the power to blow up the whole world because we have so many nukes, but do we? No we choose not to. The way you're viewing it, it's as if saying that since the U.S. has the power to blow up the world the U.S. is going to blow up the whole world.

God didn't create people to be evil as somebody said earlier, he didn't create people to sin.
Sins are the result of a disease in the sole known as sin, they are the effects of the internal disease.

God created Adam and Eve, he knew they would sin, but he also knew many others would give their lives to him and love him as was the original intent.

As for hell, hell isn't a place, it'not a fire filled pit with creatures that torture people, it's an entire seperation from God, it's a state of being completely being seperated from God. You and I right now are in some kind of connection with God whether or not we believe it.

God didn't create circumstances, circumstances are the result of the beings he created becoming involved with each other. That's like saying God created 2+2=4, no he created 2,2 and 4. 2+2=4 is the result of those numbers interacting with each other.

Rev 4:11 -- "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Created, key word. God created people so they could be in relationship with him and he could enjoy a relationship with us. That's what we were created for, created. He didn't create people evil, He created them good.

"Every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess," It's saying everyone will realize that God was their creator and they will see his glory and in awe will bow down before him. It's not saying God will force people to bow before him but that people will bow down according to their own will.

-Stormblade

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Stormblade, you’ve got to be kidding…You’re equating Superman with god?

The funny part, Storm’, is that they are both imaginary!

You wrote “Sins are the result of a disease in the sole known as sin, they are the effects of the internal disease.”

So sins are the result of sin. Thanks for clearing that up. Now we know.

The rest of your post makes very little sense, but my guess is you are reading from a comic book version of the bible. Try to keep the crayon coloring inside the lines.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

To more or less reiterate Warnepeice, this is the most cogent thing you've said: "Consider this way, let's say superman was real, he would have the power to kill every single person in the world, he could hold the world at ransom and force everybody to bow down to him and worship him. Why doesn't he? simply because he chooses not to. In the same way God..."

Yes, in the same way that Superman is imaginary, so is your god.

As far as the rest of your sermon, if I will eventually CHOOSE to bow my knee, then I have nothing, absolutely nothing to worry about, do I?

So what's the point of your preaching, stormy weather? If you are a Universalist, what's the point? It doesn't make a hill of beans of difference whether anyone believes anything at all, in your theology, or whatever you want to call it.

OK, I have a question. No, I demand an answer to this question, Stormgarden: Are you still attending the Greenwood Community Church? If not, why not?

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

I also like the way you ignored the fact that the WICKED were made for the DAY OF EVIL. I also like the way you completely ignored the obvious teachings of predestination pointed out to you from the Bible.

I just love it when Christians arbitrarily pick and choose which verses of the Bible to ignore. It shows just how closed off their minds really are as they can't even comprehend things in their own Bibles anymore. Without their pastor interpreting for them, Christians are lost. No thinking -- just parroting.

Amen.

Want a cracker?

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Stormblade: "God didn't create people to be evil as somebody said earlier, he didn't create people to sin."

Stormblade: "God created Adam and Eve, he knew they would sin,..."

I think we are making progress. You accept that your god knowingly created Eve the mother of "All" Sin. Therefore, humanity is born into "original sin", which we need to be saved from, according to Christianity. Therefore, we don't have the "free will" to remove "original sin" from us, there is no, gee, I want to make sure my children are born clean without sin...

Nope, according to the Christian doctrine "all" parents have no "free will" to have sin-free children and the children will have no free will and the ability to be born sin free. God knowingly and deliberately stained humanity with original sin, using Eve as the mother of all sin.

Stormblade: "...but he also knew many others would give their lives to him and love him as was the original intent."

Uh, pardon for being mister obvious here, but... your god knew these people that would give their lives to him and love him... there is no "free will" or choice here. Your "god", knew, as he was thinking about Eve, exactly who was going to love him and who wasn't. It's why he created "hell" before he created Eve.

Stormblade: "Sins are the result of a disease in the sole known as sin, they are the effects of the internal disease."

Which part of "god" created "all" are we having trouble with? If your god created "all", uh, doesn't that include "soul" and even the "diseased" part of the "soul" you call "sin"?

Does your "god" have "free will" Stormblade? If so, then your god exercised his free will, on all of humanity when he deliberately created Eve and hell. For you to say you have free will, removes your "god's" free will to create us, as he wanted. Did your god create humanity the way he intended, or didn't he? If so, then he intended some to go to hell - that's called predestination.

Stormblade: "As for hell, hell isn't a place, it’s not a fire filled pit with creatures that torture people, it's an entire separation from God, and it’s a state of being completely being separated from God."

If you are separated from your god, then how do you know there is a god? If you have an answer, then you aren't separated - think about it.

Stormblade: "You and I right now are in some kind of connection with God whether or not we believe it."

Again, not wanting to be Mr. Obvious here... but, does that "some kind of connection with god", make a "connection"? If so, how can you suggest we are "separated"?

I don't have a name for my belief, but if I wanted to create some thirty word descriptive title, I wouldn't use the very name that I am trying to dissociate myself from, you know, like - Christ(ian).

Let's see, I seem to remember a band-aid commercial with this separation philosophy...

You know "I'm stuck on band-aids, 'cause band-aids stuck on me". Perhaps, it's before your time, but let's go with it.

Let's see a religious parody; "I'm stuck on god, 'cause god is stuck on me". So, it's not you stuck on god, you have no choice, god is stuck on you. However, that means you are not separated, if you know your god is stuck on you, right.

Still, Stormblade, if your god knew before he created Eve, and the Universe for that matter, he was quite aware of your fondness towards him, or your dislike, etc. You have no "free will", your choices are illusory, if your god didn't create animals, you wouldn't have the choice of the Big Mac, as there wouldn't be any beef. Your god controlled everything from the beginning - do you believe your god is irresponsible with the lives of humanity? Or do you believe, he was deliberately motivated to create Eve to Sin all of humanity?

I don't know how to make this any more clear to you Stormblade, you have chosen a belief system that doesn't allow you free will. Think, does your god know what lunch you will eat tomorrow? If so, your choice and "freedom" to exercise your "will" is useless, your "god" already knows your lunch menu, to include the desert that you finally eat, after changing your mind a million times - and trying to trick him. It's why you call him "god", right?

Astreja · 3 years ago

Stormblade: astreja, your missing the point, take a step back in perspective. If your friend asked you to help and you were forced to do it than your free will would be violated. You wouldn't be doing it out of friendship or love you would be doing it because you were forced to do it. Free will is the choice to either help your friend or not.

Who's being forced to help anyone? In my examples, I do what I do out of love and compassion, without any coercion.

And yes, I *do* frequently refuse to do favours for people. I do things because I want to, not because I have to.

If I can get out to the front lines and help people, what excuse does all-powerful Biblegod have? I think it's fucking ridiculous to call your deity compassionate and loving, and then make stupid excuses for it when it consistently ignores heartfelt prayers from desperate people.

That's why I don't think the god of the Bible exists at all. A godless universe simply makes more sense to me than an invisible omnipotent being who sits around all day ignoring prayers for the heck of it.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

How do YOU know if God is answering prayers? The only way you would know if God answers prayers is if you were all knowing, all powering, and unconditionally loving all the time.... if you are debating the biblical idea of God then you cant say with certainty that God does or doesnt answer prayers because you dont have the ability, power, or knowledge to claim that as true.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

DEAR TINKSTER...

I just wanted to let you know that your insight is greatly appreciated and needed. I know that many people, Christian or not, would like to ask questions such as the ones that are posted here. Your responses provide much needed answers and insight into the Christian perspective . I'm glad that there is a blog such as this, it allows real questions to be asked, doubts to be revealed, and answers to be provided...
Yes, I am a Christian. And I my self have questions and doubts that need answers and guidance...
I just wanted to give you encouragement to continue responding here. I can imagine that it must take large amounts of your time, but you are speaking to those who need you most! People need a place like this that they can be real, be heard, and be answered. I appreciate all the view points that are provided here (Christian or not)... it makes it all the more real... But I feel it would be a shame if you stopped responding. Your thoughtful, logical insight is needed desperately! A Christian persepective is needed! I'm sure it would be a thankless job most of the time, since this is an ex christian web site with a lot of hostility being passed around... But you have no idea how your responses have helped me. Maybe this Ex Christian website will be used for God's will after all. Your responses are needed!~ Please come back!~

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

.....and after several awkward minutes a door creaks open and from far off Tink's small voice is heard to cry out...

"Mom.....is that you? Mom? I can't go back out there, they hurt me, made me listen to their un-christian points of view, mocked me and made fun of my beliefs, slammed my christian ego up against the wall, and god didn't do anything to stop them no matter how much I cried and prayed for him to stop them. I'm not goin' back out there. Those ex-christians are worse than a whole Coluseum full of hungry lions....

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Because God knows something I'm going to do, that doesn't mean I don't have free will, that doesn't mean he chooses for me. If I knew you were going to eat apple pie tomorrow that would'nt change your free will to eat apple pie. Again because God knows somebody is going to do something doesn't mean that person doesn't have free will.

God didn't create Eve as the mother of all sin. Sin is lack of a direct relationship with God, sins are the result of that lack of a relationship. For example; let's say God is a grape vine and we are the grapes growing on that vine.

In the beginning The vine grew two grapes (Adam and Eve) and for a while they had a healthy connection with each other. But later those grapes chose to disobey the grape vine and were seperated from that vine.

The seperation of us from that vine is sin. The grapes then become bruised and shriveled up, those are sins, the result or effects of being seperated from God or the grapevine. I'm using parables.

Bladerunner "your god knowingly created Eve the mother of "All" Sin." again as I said before God didn't create Eve or Adam sinful, the grapes when they first sprouted weren't bruised and shriveled up.

Webmaster "As far as the rest of your sermon, if I will eventually CHOOSE to bow my knee, then I have nothing, absolutely nothing to worry about, do I?"

This life on earth is a test, that test is whether or not we choose God as our maker and give our lives to him. Those who fail the test (choose not to believe in God and accept him) are then seperated from God. Everyone after death will realize that God is their maker and will bow down to Him. What matters is our choice here on earth.

For example; I take a test at school, I fail the test. After the test the teacher grades my test and the answers are revealed to me. I recognize that those answers are correct but that doesn't change my grade.

With God test is a bad word for the example because it's not how well we do on earth it's just whether or not we choose God and give our hearts to him.

Bladerunner "Which part of "god" created "all" are we having trouble with? If your god created "all", uh, doesn't that include "soul" and even the "diseased" part of the "soul" you call "sin"?"

God didn't create sin, sin is the seperation from God. Sin is the preverse form of what was originally intended. God didn't create the preverse form of what was originally intended.

Bladerunner "Again, not wanting to be Mr. Obvious here... but, does that "some kind of connection with god", make a "connection"? If so, how can you suggest we are "separated"?"

There are two contexts of the word seperation from God, the seperation we are experiencing right now is not a total seperation. If I choose not to believe in God and deny that Jesus is my savior and I die I will probably be condemned to total seperation from God, also known as hell. That's total seperation.

Webmaster, yes I do still attend Greenwood Community Church. I don't pick and choose to ignore certain topics but instead because of my limited time I choose the topics I find most important.

-Stormblade

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Warnepiece,
I noticed that nearly all your remarks are somewhat sarcastic in nature. Christian or NOT, you seem to be very angry... or maybe, really the word should be hurt???

Dano · 3 years ago

Why do so many religious nuts refuse to see the obvious? If God made us then he is responsible for everything we do, If he wanted us to make certain decisions, he would have programmed the inclination to make those decisions into us. God is perfect, all knowing, all powerful, all loving, everywhere, right? What does he do? Fuck up some of us on purpose, and then say it was our fault? What did he do create a big video game down here?
Dano (The obvious is so obvious that believers of mythology cant see the obvious)

Dano · 3 years ago

...or as the great Dave8 would say "Cognitive dissonance is at play here!"
Dano (Wondering how many minds have been stunted by religion?)

Warnepiece · 3 years ago

Anonymous #3,889,275...who thinks I hurt…

Apparently you haven’t read much of this thread because on 11/30/06 at 11:33 PM in a response to Tinkster, I wrote “No veiled sarcasm was intended with what I wrote. I meant every word of it, sarcastic or not. It is precisely because I have had a lifetime of exposure to Christianity, and found ALL of it wanting, that I respond to it with sarcasm.”

This is REALLY going to hurt you anonymous, but I am not hurting at all, nor am I even mildly angry. I have a great life, a wonderful family, live where I want to live and do what I want to do. Plus, I have the added bonus of not being shackled to a ridiculous belief anymore. But I respond to the constant, repetitive, asinine bible quotations and credulous observations of christians, like your pathetic attempt to label me as angry or…awwww…”hurt”…with sarcasm.

Why is it you think I, or any other Ex-christian, should NOT respond with sarcasm to witless instant psychoanalysis on the part of christians who know nothing about us, save for a few words we write on a website? Does god look into our hearts, minds and…(cough-cough) souls…and then relay this information to you so you can make your judgment? Enlighten me, please.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Stormblade said: This life on earth is a test, that test is whether or not we choose God as our maker and give our lives to him.

It is? Where in the Bible does it say this life is a test. Please give the Bible verse that says this life is a test to see if we will choose God.

Besides, didn't you just say that God already knows what we are going to do? What's the point of a test, when the outcome is already set in stone? Why this retched veil of tears if from before I am born, God knows exactly how I will score on this test? Why the act? Why play with people in this way? If HE knows I am going to make certain choices, why not just get to the chase and start roasting me right away? Or, better yet, why not just decide to not create me at all? If life is just a test to see what GOD knows we are already going to do, then life is a complete waste of time.

This teaching, that life is just a test for the afterlife, is perhaps the worst teaching in Christianity. It makes this life valueless and meaningless. If all of life is nothing but a test for the afterlife, then nothing in this life matters except in how it relates to the afterlife. Education, advancement in a career, family... Nothing is as important as religion. Religion is the ultimate reality and everything else is just shadows and illusion. Science becomes the tool of the devil in that kind of world while magical forces are imagined to be manipulating the world around us.

That was the thinking for over 1,000 years during the Dark Ages. That thinking hobbled the advancement of real knowledge. People lived in filth, throwing into their garbage and excrement into the street from their windows, and believed the subsequent plagues brought on the backs of rats were caused by demons or witches. The simple knowledge of hygiene used by Greeks and Romans was abandoned by Christian society so death came earlier and earlier to people. Life meant little, anyway; all that mattered was the Church.

Anyway, where is the Bible verse that says life is just a test to see who goes to heaven.

Now, as to your Adam and Eve grapevine "parable": If Adam and Eve were perfect when God created them, then how could they make imperfect decisions? I mean, if Adam and Eve were the express image of God and perfect, then they could only make the kind of decisions that God could make. If Adam and Eve could "choose" to sin, even though they were perfect, then God can also "choose" to sin, so we better watch out!

Which brings up another point. Can God "choose" to sin? Because if HE can't choose to sin, and we can, then we have free will and HE doesn't have free will.

With God test is a bad word for the example because it's not how well we do on earth it's just whether or not we choose God and give our hearts to him.

All that matters in life is whether we've chosen the correct version of the right religion.

It doesn't matter if a pastor is out screwing young women in his congregation as long as he has chosen the correct version of the right religion. Character doesn't matter. Honesty doesn't matter. Getting naked with people you spiritually lead doesn't matter. Nothing matters except that you've chosen the correct version of the right religion.

OK, well, at one time, I chose the correct version of the right religion. Therefore, I'll invite you up to my apartment in heaven one day. If that's all this life is about, making the correct answer on a test, then I'll be in, because I passed that test!

Now, are you going to add in here that the person must continually pass the test every day for the rest of their lives until this miserable life of boring tests is over, or is this just a one time sit down test, like in school?

BTW, what grade are you in?

Dave8 · 3 years ago

Dano: "...or as the great Dave8 would say "Cognitive dissonance is at play here!"
Dano (Wondering how many minds have been stunted by religion?)"

Yes, it does appear that there is a lof of cognitive dissonance, going around for the religious :-) And, I'm just as great as all of us who no longer have to live with the baggage of cognitive dissonance :-) Happy Holidays!

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Stormblade: "God didn't create Eve as the mother of all sin."

Your god planned how he would create Eve, Hell & murder his Son "before" he created anything - unless you accept your god is not all knowing. Did, or did not, your "god" plan and know the eternal consequences of his actions? If so, he "did" create Eve knowing she would Sin and damn all of humanity - what religion did you say you attended? This is a common Christian theme; you don't get to "choose" the rules of your god, if you believe him omniscient, and omnipotent. He created "you", you don't get the privilege of creating "him" as you want him to be. So, fess up, your God is responsible for creating Eve, knowing she would Sin all of humanity.

Your god then created Eve & Hell based on his plan, knowing people would be sent to hell (not only sent, he knows r8ght now who's going to hell and who isn't).

Eve sinned as planned/known, and all of humanity was doomed for eternity, but god had this pre-planned, because god isn't irresponsible, so he sent his Son to be murdered by torture by Roman soldiers, another part of his known plan.

Stormblade: "Sin is lack of a direct relationship with God; sins are the result of that lack of a relationship. For example; let's say God is a grape vine and we are the grapes growing on that vine."

Okay, the planter and the fruit. You suggest that the fruit has free will, and all I'm suggesting is that the planter, your god, has more free will than you - you god is the maker and creator. You have no more free will than that grape, while your god has ultimate free will to make wine or jelly out of you.

You can't be asserting that your god has "less" free will than humanity - right. There is a dominant free will in this relationship you call the god - human relationship. Who has the greatest "free will", you... or your god?

Do you not agree that whoever has the greatest free will has the dominant power in the relationship? If we are separated from your "god", there is much more responsibility for that separation on the part of the one who has the greatest "free will", that would be your god.

You appear to be blaming the "grape" on the vine, because of the planter's design. As the planter, you can choose to go pick a grape, the grape doesn't get the option, unless they evolve over time, and then, perhaps the grape has more choice, but "never" as much choice as the Christian theology states. God will "always" be more than humanity, and that includes dominance of "free will".

You like analogies/scenarios? So, do I.

Lets say, you are the mother of an infant. You planned on getting pregnant, and you planned on how to raise your child, two responsible actions.

Then, before your infant is born, you plan on how you are going to test that child's loyalty to you as the dominant "free will" agency in the relationship.

You start out this test, by creating an "eternal" punishment; call it "separation" from all "love" and "peace" for eternity - torture/torment.

Then, you build a crib with bars where an infant can just barely reach a special bottle of milk. And, then the child is born.

As the child grows, you tell the child, don't reach out and grab the bottle if you "love" me. However, over time, you pull back from the relationship, to see if the child will truly obey your words... but as you pull back, you have "separated" yourself from your child, because "you" had the dominant "free will" to do so. In this scenario, "you" have committed the "original sin" of "separation".

Going on, you choose to watch, as you remain separated and silent. Most mothers would think, "gee, my child probably doesn't understand the greater implications of what I'm teaching them, after all they are the "newest" creation of all".

However, you as a mother, with a dominant free will, choose to not teach the child, and remain in their company to ensure that an entire human race is saved. Nope, you being the responsible parent, choose to sit back and remain silent.

Over time, the infant is able to reach the bottle. They not only forgot what they were taught, they really never knew the consequences for their actions. The child is naturally curious, and their thirst for knowledge and understanding of their environment is dependent on that cognitive drive, which was how they were made.

The child chooses to grab the bottle, because of their thirst and curiosity. In short, they fall back on "instinct", which is survival/food and curiosity/knowledge. Humans instinctively are drawn to fulfill their needs based on instinct. An, instinct I may add, that your "god" created in us.

You then, as the mother with the dominant free will, the mother who created a child, knowing their curiosity and instincts, punishes your child to eternal separation because you accuse them of failing your test. You then, in a fit of rage, condemn "all" of that child's family, and eternal offspring.

Later on, a neighbor, (Jesus) shows up on the scene and claims to have "equal" free will, and omnipotence as the mother to undo the test. Thus, this calls into question the mother's test as being "fair", or "valuable". The fact that the neighbor can undo the test, calls into question the mother's ability to properly "rear" their child, many would call such a test "child abuse", as the child is placed in a situation of harm, and unable to know the consequences of their actions.

However, the neighbor appears to be sincere in their belief that they have the ability to overcome the results of the test, where the child failed to show loyalty, because they see the flawed logic, justice, and "good will" of the creator/mother/god.

The child never knew the creator, because the mother chose to be separated at birth as the test. The child lived, but was damned/separated their entire life, and all of their offspring were separated for thousands of years. The neighbor, shows up, and expects everyone to believe that he is part of the original mother's family, but better, more just, logical, and loving. This means, the "mother" wasn't capable of being as Just, Logical, or Loving. This means, that the "mother" failed in their responsibility of the one with dominant "free will" to nurture a loving relationship.

The neighbor, making such a statement of reconciliation, in fact calls into question the motive of the mother... in a symbolic sense, the neighbor appears to be claiming to be "good" enough, to overcome the "evil" of the mother's injustice towards all of humanity.

Many don't want to believe that the mother was evil, because they were given a set of instructions, and if they follow them, they don't get punished, they get rewarded - thus, they attack the neighbor. And then, there are the others, who want to believe the neighbor can in fact save them from the injustice caused by an abusive parent, but in believing in the neighbor's words, they are in fact "calling into question", the mother's motives, justice, love, and "free will".

You, Stormblade, are part of that second group; the Rabbinical Jews are in the first. The Christian religion, has chosen to believe that the "god" of the "Old Testament", made the "original sin" of separation, and in fact, unjustly abused "All" of humanity. The only contact the Christian has with this original creator is through the good neighbor - there's a reason they call it "Christ"ianity.

In short, Christianity is much of a dichotomy and akin to a lot of early symbolism in ancient world history. "God", in this case is considered evil/"bad will", yet, there is the contrast of goodness/"good will" with this neighbor (Jesus) from the same body. Much like yin/yang.

Early in your bible (Old Testament), yin and yang were as "one"...

Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

I wonder how many Christians understand that their actual religious name, is a testament and "conviction" of the Supreme God of the Old Testament as one who incited the evil separation and damnation of all of humanity? Do you understand this Stormblade, it's your religious foundation.

Over time, early in Christianity, "yang" or "Jesus” showed up on the scene to bring goodness - to bring back into balance humanity who was overwhelmed with "evil", or as you put it, overwhelmed with the "separation" from their creator.

In theory, there Stormblade, we are now back in "balance", between yin and yang, thanks to the arrival of the friendly neighbor - well, as long as we are willing to believe that the Old Testament god was evil and that Jesus actually represented the good that came to set things back into balance.

The Jews believed, yin/yang were as one, but only the Jews were saved for eternity, however, they didn't believe in hell, the most evil thing they had to fear was twelve months of earth time in separation once they passed away.

The Christians believed, and promoted the "split" of yin and yang, thus, the good neighbor policy was put into affect by Paul. And, in theory we are now back in balance, but only, if we truly, truly, believe your "god" was originally capable of "sin", and "evil". Do you believe this Stormblade? That your Christ/yang came to overcome the "evil" test that was placed upon all of humanity?

Are you a "True" CHRISTian follower? You can choose a title, any title, but it has little meaning in the scheme of life, unless you are able to put into practice that which you believe. Do you practice, and believe that your "god", created the Original Sin, and is most capable of being "evil"? Most mothers would never abuse their child, in the manner your "god" symbolically tested all of humanity. A mother who abuses their child from learning by experience, because they were never taught the consequences of their actions, is gross negligence on behalf of an "all knowing", "all powerful", dominant "free will" entity.

Stormblade: "God didn't create sin, sin is the separation from God. Sin is the preverse form of what was originally intended. God didn't create the preverse form of what was originally intended."

Again, "your" god, created "all", and pre-planned it "all". That includes "sin". Your "god", separated themselves from "Eve", and "Adam" to leave them to live based on instinct, your "god" left them first, like a mother would leave their child in a forest as an infant. By your very statement you are suggesting that your "god" wasn't capable of "knowing" their actions, so, you are claiming your god has plausible deniability for their actions.

There are the actions that are in your bible, and then there are your words. Personally, if you claim to be a Christian, I am going to hold you according to the words in your bible. Your god did indeed engage in evil acts and was the progenitor of "original sin". Your god was the one with the ultimate authority to make the "right" decisions, just like a mother has, when they have an infant, don't make excuses for your god.

Stormblade: "There are two contexts of the word separation from God, the separation we are experiencing right now is not a total separation."

Have you ever really sat down and studied your bible? Where does it say you have the option to equivocate on your "god's" biblical plan? You are trying to rationalize what is written in your bible, just read your bible just as it is written.

Your god, symbolically, made the rift and separation deliberately with Eve, and all of humanity. Not only did he do this purposely, he didn't come back to apologize, he sent his son to be murdered, because he had too much pride to accept his evil ways as wrong. His son was a blood sacrifice for his "wrong doing", or "evil ways". Just as the Jews, had to offer a sacrifice to pay for their sins.

You continue to parrot that we are not currently in a total "separation". You don't have the dominant "free will" to make that statement. If your "god", has the dominant "free will", and chooses to not be "connected" to you, or anyone, which there is a precedence for in the Garden of Eden, then he is separated.

You statement of connection, challenges his "free will". And, you can't know his "free will" choices, unless you are stating that you are of equal understanding as a "god", yourself.

Also, if you choose to continue to state that your god is partially connected, then you don't mind if I blame god, partially for all my sins and transgressions, as he is an influential factor in my life.

If you try and manipulate this into some compromise, and suggest god is not partially connected, but is like - hanging out, like a life preserver, we can choose to grab on or not. You are ignoring the fact that your god, already knows who will grab on and who will not. As well, there is nothing you can show me in the bible, that shows "god" as one, who is sitting around as a life-preserver, if anything, he is an evil abuser.

You could then attempt to reconcile the obvious shortcomings of the yin/El god, by stating that Jesus is in fact the life-preserver, and then, I'd ask you who created this "life-preserver", and of course, most all Christians would say "god" - the most powerful abuser of humanity ever.

At this point, I could see the harmony of symbolism, but of course, I would ask you then, why your "god" is not perfect. Perfect, means to be free of sin, and evil. In order for this symbolism to reconcile, your "god", can not be perfect. Sure, it makes total sense, historically, symbolically, and even logically, but it is not the "god", that Christians follow or believe, yet it's the god in their very bible.

Stormblade: "You and I right now are in some kind of connection with God whether or not we believe it."

Then, we are in connection with both the good and evil nature of your god, per your bible. Care to disagree with your Holy Bible?

Stormblade: "If I choose not to believe in God and deny that Jesus is my savior and I die I will probably be condemned to total separation from God, also known as hell. That's total separation."

Per your very words, and the bible, it appears that your god is master of both heaven and hell, thus, which ever side we fall on in our lives at the end, we will have the company of your god.

Perhaps, it’s the yang/Jesus you seek to fall upon in death, because you have failed to grasp the very roots of your religion. Okay, that's human nature, been going around since 10K BCE, and there is geometric precedent.

If you ever get tired of sitting in a pew, staring blankly at a pastor who has likely, not studied the history of religion or of the world, then, you are accepting mediocrity where your eternal existence is at stake. I would suggest that this is not a responsible place for someone concerned for their eternal existence to be.

And, lets be frank, just because you convince yourself of his/her words, doesn't make them any more real or true. Those words are an illusion as well, and reality has a way of showing itself in effect, even while the illusion takes place.

Most people who are sincere in their research, study the past that led up to a belief system. The great news there Stormblade, is that I don't believe your god is either evil or good, and neither do I believe you or anyone is condemned to hell or heaven. That's a belief you have grown to accept. In short, you have learned to view humanity in terms of the condemned and the not-condemned. The two opposing ends of good and evil, with no middle ground or harmony.

I tend to believe, that neither good nor evil, is required to find the harmonic middle, like the religious foundations of your belief system. Perhaps, there is harmony upon death, that doesn't require the human conditions that are defined as good/evil. After all, once we die, those "human" conditions are no longer relevant - and I dare say, you have nothing to show different - if you do, then I'd like to ask you a few questions first, to make sure you are capable of getting involved in a discussion that goes beyond "Pastor Admits Sex With Teen Girl".

In your belief system, it appears, there are many living in hell as you put it in this day and time. You as a Christian see a separation from your "god" (although presented as evil in the bible many times) as a sort of hell/suffering on earth, and an ultimate hell/suffering if separated upon death.

Ironic… many, who are Atheist, Agnostic, etc., have the same symbolic belief. Indeed, many believe that those who tend to separate themselves from "reality”, are leading a life more prone to suffering. However, upon death, suffering can not be understood as a human construct.

Where the Christian sees suffering based on separation from a "god" on earth, some non-religious see that fleeing of reality as a sign of suffering that has already occurred. That suffering, there Stormblade, may well be the abuse you have received when you were taught that there is some eternal torture chamber/separation that exists after you die.

This is a commonly mis-understood precept between the Atheist, Agnostic, "etc." and the Abrahamic religionist. The Christian attempts to pity those for what they will receive after death, while some non-religious attempt to pity, those who live in suffering today in this real world for their beliefs.

Therefore, Stormblade, accept my words as one of those who see you as suffering to some degree. Suffering to the point, that you are capable of creating "rational" arguments, to protect you from a "perceived" problem/suffering. Rational arguments, that reside outside of the words of the bible.

You allow the words in a book (or some person), to create the illusion of suffering in your mind, and you mentally react to protect yourself, by using reason. Some would call that running in fear in one's own mind, a type of hell. If you ever quit running, because you get too tired, you will find that the illusion is just that, as it passes you by.

I only have compassion for you, no hate, and no animosity. However, please understand, that I can not condone the religious leaders who prey on followers, and use ancient words (mostly misunderstood and twisted) to inflict that suffering on humanity. I see the art of theology, as modern magic, used to trick people into giving up their lives to a religious leader's cause.

The "pastor" who admitted having sex with a teen girl, obviously didn't believe in the illusion of eternal suffering for themselves for their actions. Yet, it may well be that the teenager, thought they were doing something that was sanctioned by a god, to some degree. Just because someone takes up a title, doesn't give the authority to speak as an authority figure, and that others should follow blindly - but it's that blind "faith", that is required for those who follow Christianity.

The reason I challenge your comments, is that a lot of what you are saying, is not in the bible per se, and thus, you are taking a position as an authority figure in Christianity. Shall we stick to the bible, of which defines you as a Christians, or do you wish to discuss your personal interpretation of history and what you find wrong with the bible, because the statements you have made are not in alignment with your bible.

On the contrary, multiple levels of separation, is found predominantly in the Latter Day Saints (Mormon) religion, and other religions. But, they have their own book to state these levels of "separation". As you start separating out "hell", they separate "heaven".

Forgive, the long synopsis, just want to bring you up to speed on how many people, who understand your religious history, may be perceiving your words. I do my best to identify the blind follower from the religious leader or authority figure who believes they can speak on behalf of a god. In the future, it would be helpful for you to pick a few verses out to support your claims.

I'll warn you early though; the same opposites such as yin/yang that is symbolic in the bible regarding "gods", i.e., EL/YHWH, Jesus/Satan, Demons/Angels, good/evil, Moses/Paul, Jewish/Christian, Old Commandments/New Commandments, First Coming of Jesus/Second Coming of Jesus, Trinity/Non-Trinity, etc., etc., are presented in much the same way in the bible, based on verse and scripture. In short, every time you find a major "event" in the bible, that supports your point of view, I will surely find an opposite, it's how the bible was created. It's also, why, dear Stormblade that the bible is utterly useless when attempting to use it as a moral guide, or a religious one for that matter, when one needs to search for a discrete answer to a problem/question.

To give you an example; Jesus hated the law of the Sabbath, yet the god El, commanded that the Sabbath be kept. Two opposing views, two deities. Care to pick out which one is the most accurate?

If you pick Jesus, I'll ask who prophesied of Jesus' birth, according to the Christian New Testament. And, the answer would be from the god El, thus if El couldn't get the Sabbath Commandment right, then how was he capable, as a god, to get the prophesy of Jesus right? Answer; he couldn't, thus Jesus is a charlatan.

If you pick El, then, Jesus was a charlatan, a disobeyer of the Laws that were put forth, a blasphemer who deserved to die, for transgressing the Holy Commandments of his day. By the way, the laws were so strict back in the early Christian era, that the utter spelling of "God", was blasphemous, one could not know enough about "G-d", to presume to speak/write even his name.

Find it funny, that modern Christianity has dumbed down "God", to the point that anyone can stuff words in his mouth, and call it a divine sermon. Care to suggest that your "god" has more, or less, free will than you or anyone else on this planet - or perhaps, give me that verse? I have a better question, what is it that makes you believe, you are more capable of knowing the truth of your religion, than let’s say… someone else?

We all hold the same capability, no more, no less, than many others, unless biologically restricted – and modern science appears to be unlocking some of the secrets that influence capability, by creating potential. However, capability is not the same thing as “potential”. Whereas, something may be capable, it will be restricted in its becoming more/less, by the external environment/potential. Potential has a great influence on how far one is able to reach their maximum capability – whatever one wants to define that as. Hopefully, you find someone to assist you in the understanding of what it means to become, because that will create the focus to unlock that capability within you. However, if you don’t find those that can foster and cultivate your potential, well… I’m sure you understand the implications. And, sadly, in many small rural towns across the U.S. there are far fewer people who are adept at sewing potential, than they are at defining/restricting “capability” using words in an ancient book.

Dano · 3 years ago

Oops!
Where have you been Dave8? So many simple minded fundies coming here to witness to us, and tell us how we have been hurt, and how angry we are, and without the bible as a guide, we have no moral compass, and unless we believe all of the ridiculous shit in the bible we have no reason for living.

There so little time to sidetrack these maniacs before they sanction a nuclear confrontation or something!

Now I guess I must wish everybody a "Happy winter solstice" or happy shopping, but instead I think I will wish for an end to religious evangelicalism, and of Bushe's stupid prohibitions on federal funding for stem cell research, and federal funding to faith based charities, and for the overthrow of that Islamic Hitler in Iran, and......
Dano (Who has faith that we all, together, can end faith, and bring a new SEASON OF REASON to the world)

Astreja · 3 years ago

Anonymous: How do YOU know if God is answering prayers? The only way you would know if God answers prayers is if you were all knowing, all powering, and unconditionally loving all the time...

This is incorrect on several levels.

First things first. Acquiring this knowledge does not require me to be unconditionally loving. This is irrelevant.

Second thing: I also do not need to be all-powerful to have this knowledge. My efficacy in the universe does not affect my knowledge, and vice versa.

And finally, I do not need to be all-knowing. I only need knowledge of one unanswered prayer to make an adequate determination in this case. Read the testimonies of the ex-Christians on this board and you will find literally hundreds of examples of unanswered prayer.

Dave8 · 3 years ago

Dano: "Where have you been Dave8?

Trying to bring you your "Winter Solstice" wish...

Dano: "...and for the overthrow of that Islamic Hitler in Iran,"

Consider me on vacation, trying to work around the problem... :-) I get time every now and then to make comments, it's going to be a long upcoming year... Good to see the regulars are still holding education seminars online..., it's so hard to discuss someone's religion if they don't know their own doctrine :-)

Dave8 (Who is also ready for a new SEASON OF REASON - Merry Solstice!)

Zach · 3 years ago

I've been an avid reader of this blog/website for the last month, not that any of you care. There is little that I enjoy more than intelligent, and rational debate on the issue of Christ. However, I have noticed that the lack of welcome for an opposing view is startling. If this site is simply for "Ex-Christians" to band together and encourage each other, I completely understand, and feel that Christians (I am one) should leave evangualizing for another place. Yet the simple fact that the Christians who have posted on this site have made such a stir, is direct evidence against this website's "purpose." It seems as though the persistent bloggers on this page thrive on "tearing apart" the Christian philosophy. It seems as though if Christians are unwelcome, then this site would lose interest, as well as many of its faithful bloggers. Since, obviously, the majority of the posts on this page (and there are many) involve argumentation on the issue of Christianity and religion, it would make obvious sense for this website to encourage input from both sides. Self-proclaimed rationalists should seek out intellectual exercise, instead of rejecting it. Many posters seem to seek it out, while complaining at the same time. This site has an incredible significance if it is a place where logical argumentation can occur. If that is not what Ex-Christians desire, they have made the same fallacy that the gross majority of Christians have made.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Bladerunner, Not once have I ever heard anyone who believes in God to label God as evil. Not one, I have not read one verse in the whole bible that somewhat implies that God is evil.

Bladerunner:"To give you an example; Jesus hated the law of the Sabbath,"

Jesus didn't hate the law of the sabbath but instead he hated what the pharisee's had turned it into. In fact he defended the law of the sabbath,

Mark 2:27:"then he said to them, 'the sabbath was made to benefit people and not people to benefit the Sabbath. And I, the Son of Man,am master even of the Sabbath."

Bladerunner:"The reason I challenge your comments, is that a lot of what you are saying, is not in the bible per se,"

Everything I have said has been based on the bible.

Bladerunner:"(although presented as evil in the bible many times)"

Bladerunner:"Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.""

God is never referred to as evil.

I looked at five different versions of this verse and not one of them said evil. "create evil" not one version said this. Where did you get this verse?

Your whole parable about the mother, son, and neighbor is totally contradictory to what the bible teaches. You used a baby as an example of us, a baby is not able to think like we are and thus is not able to make decision which will then decide it's fate.

You used the mother as God and the neighbor as Jesus, as if they were two seperate beings and didn't like each other. Again wrong in accordance to the teachings of the bible. Instead the bible teaches that God and Jesus were as one.

John 10:30"I and the Father are One."

Bladerunner:"The child never knew the creator, because the mother chose to be separated at birth as the test"

Again wrong, Genesis 3:8 "Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden."

Sounds to me like they were'nt seperated at birth. In fact if you read Genesis you will find that God is quite present.

Bladerunner:"The neighbor, shows up, and expects everyone to believe that he is part of the original mother's family, but better, more just, logical, and loving. This means, the "mother" wasn't capable of being as Just, Logical, or Loving."

Where does it say Jesus expected to be "better, more just, logical, and loving"? Where are you drawing these conclusions from because they are not in the bible.

Bladerunner:"Your god, symbolically, made the rift and separation deliberately with Eve"

No, Eve chose to disobey God and to sin. Eve was then stained with sin. Anything that has sin can't be a part of God. Thus Eve was then seperated from God.

Bladerunner:"Eve sinned as planned/known,"

It wasn't planned that Eve would sin. No where does it say that sin was planned.

-Stormblade

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Webmaster, If a person chooses to accept Jesus as his/her savior and chooses to have a relationship with God than that person has chosen to live with God for eternity.

On the other hand if a person chooses to believe in God at one point but than denies him later and chooses not to believe in him than that person has chosen to be seperate from God for eternity.

-Stormblade

Dano · 3 years ago

Zach wrote: 12/23/2006 3:22 AM EST  
" If this site is simply for "Ex-Christians" to band together and encourage each other, I completely understand, and feel that Christians (I am one) should leave evangualizing for another place."

Here you go Zach!
Site Purpose and Legal Disclaimer at top right of page.
.: posted 11/05/2005 ::: by .:webmaster:. :::
Purpose and Posting Guidelines:
(In part)
The ExChristian.Net/Ex-Christian.Net websites are open to all with the stipulations that they not be used for a spam medium or a place to verbally abuse Ex-Christians.

This forum exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind. It is not an open challenge to Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their invisible friend.

Having said that, all people are welcome to join the discussions and post their ideas, thoughts, or even well thought out arguments. Discussions are permitted even if they occasionally become heated.... posted 11/05/2005 ::: by .:webmaster:.

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Zach: "I've been an avid reader of this blog/website for the last month, not that any of you care."

That seems pretty bold, do you know what everyone cares about on a regular basis?

Zach: "There is little that I enjoy more than intelligent and rational debate on the issue of Christ. However, I have noticed that the lack of welcome for an opposing view is startling."

Well, Zach, consider this an ex-tian site. Each person has left their abusive relationship with xtianity on different terms. Some more hurt and angry than others. I have had much time to ponder upon those xtian things that had a negative impact on my life. Therefore, I am a more cordial about debating the issues, where many others, who may have been recently divorced from their religion - aren't.

So, when you debate on this site, you get a mixed bag of responses. However, it's likely you will find a group that will entertain your questions, and give you sincere discussion, if that is your intent. Many xtians show up, not to discuss, but to proselytize.

Zach: "If this site is simply for "Ex-Christians" to band together and encourage each other, I completely understand, and feel that Christians (I am one) should leave evangelizing for another place."

Sounds logical so far.

Zach: "Yet the simple fact that the Christians who have posted on this site have made such a stir, is direct evidence against this website's "purpose".

So, do you suggest that the web-site's purpose is to not stir when Christians post? Does stir include both "discussion", and "resentment"? The purpose is to provide a community for non-religious, specifically non-xtian people to come together and discuss the issues involved with leaving the fold. That includes "all" types of discussion and communication. It appears, you want a specific "type" of discussion to dominate this site, and create its purpose.

Again, someone who is angry just after leaving xtianity is likely in a different mode for communicating than someone who has been out for a while. If you suggest that this site, needs to separate out those who post, based on their level of resentment, then... it's no longer a site for ex-tians, it's a site for ex-tians who meet certain criteria.

That would be the religious symbolism of creating different denomination/domains of ex-tianity. Personally, I like the universal sense of the site, for more than one reason. Just one example; if someone is angry, they need someone who has already been through the process and who can increase their potential to eventually purge themselves of the anger... that requires different levels of knowledge and experience working together.

And, although it may make some frustrated who are still xtian to interact, it's their responsibility to understand the circumstances surrounding the conversation they will be engaging in. I do not start out my responses with... My name is "Blade-Runner", I've been an extian for about three years, and I'm glad to be part of the recovery group."

Zach: "It seems as though the persistent bloggers on this page thrive on "tearing apart" the Christian philosophy."

Sometimes, we must take apart the engine in order to see how it works. Once, everyone is clear on how and why it works, can a true discussion ensue on the merits and shortcomings of the philosophy. I am sure you would agree, that attempting to talk about a religion without knowing its makeup, is about useless. If all a person can say is; it's true, it's true, it's true, it's true, it's true, infinitely, then there isn't a discussion.

Zach: "It seems as though if Christians are unwelcome, then this site would lose interest, as well as many of its faithful bloggers."

Unless, this site is for camaraderie and to discuss the merits and shortcomings of xtianity. Wait, that would happen anyway, perhaps not a lot, would change.

Zach: "Since, obviously, the majority of the posts on this page (and there are many) involve argumentation on the issue of Christianity and religion, it would make obvious sense for this website to encourage input from both sides."

Do you see a shortage of postings from both sides?

Zach: "Self-proclaimed rationalists should seek out intellectual exercise, instead of rejecting it."

Thus, then, you agree that an intellectual exercise includes the rigorous inspection of the underpinnings of the topic at hand - religion and specifically xtianity.

Zach: "Many posters seem to seek it out, while complaining at the same time."

There are a myriad of reasons for this... many times, xtians don't read any of the articles posted on this site, nor do they take into account that those they are conversing with, are just out of a bad relationship - something to think about. No one likes to be lied to, before their betrothed marriage - only to find out later the truth.

Zach: "This site has an incredible significance if it is a place where logical argumentation can occur. If that is not what Ex-Christians desire, they have made the same fallacy that the gross majority of Christians have made."

Those who have been abused will have to eventually open up to allow the poison to purge. However... Zach, you couldn't be suggesting that everyone be expected to heal at the same exact rate - or are you?

Argumentation, is something that comes "after" one has overcome the initial betrayal, and anger they have experienced.

Personally, I think it's a good thing for xtians to come onto this site and see the varied reasons people leave the fold. This very thread speaks of a Pastor who admits having sex with an under aged girl.

There have been threads where the actual victim shows up, to discuss their point of view on the matter, so, they are an xtian who is just going through their realization that their religion is built on humanity, and the luster of the perfect religion loses its illusory effect.

If the xtian can not come onto this site, and accept that there is much diversity in terms of where people are in their life in relation to religion, then, perhaps you are seeking a site that is more restrictive, and focused on civil debate only - that of course, removes the human factor - but then, so does much of religion.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Stormblade said: "If a person chooses to accept Jesus as his/her savior and chooses to have a relationship with God than that person has chosen to live with God for eternity.

On the other hand if a person chooses to believe in God at one point but than denies him later and chooses not to believe in him than that person has chosen to be seperate [sic] from God for eternity.

Please show me the Bible verse(s) that support your little belief. Just reading you say something isn't authoritative for me, sorry.

Thanks.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Stormblade also said, and hasn't answered my question about it: This life on earth is a test, that test is whether or not we choose God as our maker and give our lives to him.

So I'll ask again: Where in the Bible does it say this life is a test? Please give the Bible verse or verses that clearly say this life is only a test to see if we will choose God.

Will God be surprised by the outcome of the test?

And again, what grade are you in? It's beginning to look a lot like high school.

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Ah, Stormblade, you don't believe the opposite rule and the genesis of your bible's construction. Okay, fair enough, I asked you to give examples that I can find opposites for, and you provided some. Watch the bouncing ball.

Stormblade: "Not once have I ever heard anyone who believes in God to label God as evil. Not one, I have not read one verse in the whole bible that somewhat implies that God is evil."

Well, surprise, surprise, surprise. I believed in your god, and after I studied the bible, and saw all the acts that he committed, I was quite aware of his evil nature. I didn’t leave Christianity because I woke up one day, and thought – gee, I think I’ll tempt my eternal fate. Nope, I researched the bible and many other academic areas before I left the fold. So, chalk one up on the roster as one who believed in your god that “did” believe your god was capable of evil. I’ll only list some passages (and there are more), that state your god has an evil spirit/nature. If you want, I can name a plethora of events that I and anyone else with a common sense of decency would consider “evil” actions.

Judges 9:23 - "Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech."

God is the lead in "evil" planning, he plans, and direct "evil" spirits to where he wants them to go. Bottom line, your god is the "authority" who "directs" the use of "evil" spirits. A perfect and sinless god can not be associated with "evil", yet... your god seems quite capable and proficient on the use of "evil" against humanity.

1 Samuel 16:14-16 - "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well."

1 Samuel 16:23 - "And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him."

1 Samuel 18:10 - "And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand."

1 Samuel 19:9 - "And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand."

Let me know if you need more...

I'd say you should pray to your god on this, but he doesn't respect you enough to answer your prayers.

Deuteronomy 10:17 - "For the Lord your God... regardeth not persons."

2 Chronicles 19:7 - "For there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, nor respect of persons."

Acts 10:34 - "God is no respecter of persons."

Romans 2:11 - "For there is no respect of persons with God."

Galatians 2:6 - "God accepteth no man's person."

Ephesians 6:9 - "Neither is there respect of persons with him."

Colossians 3:25 - "There is no respect of persons."

1 Peter 1:17 - "And if ye call upon the Father, who without respect of persons, jugeth according to every man's work."

Perhaps, that's why god doesn't answer prayers - seems like a logical conclusion. Care to provide an opposite meaning to your bible?

Stormblade: "Jesus didn't hate the law of the sabbath but instead he hated what the pharisee's had turned it into. In fact he defended the law of the sabbath,"

Interesting, and... what day do you currently celebrate the Sabbath Day? Do tell... the original day was on Saturday. If Jesus was not come to change the Torah or Old Testament Law, can you explain why you worship on Sunday, instead of Saturday?

Mark 2:27:"then he said to them, 'the sabbath was made to benefit people and not people to benefit the Sabbath. And I, the Son of Man,am master even of the Sabbath."

In other words, "I" Jesus, am above your god "El", who has created the Sabbath to be observed on Saturday as it should be.

John 1:45 - "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

John 9:16 - "Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them."

In fact, per your bible, Jesus "did" come to abolish the Sabbath as it was established by the Jewish leaders and their God. Jesus blasphemed the god "El", and elevated himself to a position "greater" than that of the Jewish God. Hence, why they killed him eventually. He continued to blaspheme their god, over, and over.

Stormblade: "Everything I have said has been based on the bible."

Actually, what you have suggested is not totally supported by the bible. Especially, the part of the great test. However, I have no problem pulling directly from your bible, and it appears we are finding everything to be opposite of what you have concluded up to this point. Do you find that coincidental? I wonder how long we can play this game of opposites, until you realize that your bible was written in opposition.

Bladerunner:"Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.""

Kindly refer to the first list of biblical scripture that states that your god is in fact "evil". That your god incites "evil". That your god "created" evil. Thus, if you are involved in the business of "evil", you are tainted to some degree as "evil". If you hire someone to kill someone else, you are just as evil as the person that commits the crime - please tell me, you are capable of understanding this.

Stormblade: "I looked at five different versions of this verse and not one of them said evil. "create evil" not one version said this. Where did you get this verse?"

http://etext.virginia.edu/frames/bibleframe.html

Perhaps, the university of Virginia is incorrect in their publishings - Or, maybe not.

Stormblade: "Your whole parable about the mother, son, and neighbor is totally contradictory to what the bible teaches. You used a baby as an example of us, a baby is not able to think like we are and thus is not able to make decision which will then decide it's fate."

Tell me Stormblade; are you omniscient, can you comprehend the Universal consequences of your actions, even if you were told right this second by a god? No, because that would make you a god. And, you have a few thousand years of scientific evolution and knowledge on your side. Eve... was obviously not omniscient, nor was she a god. She was the newest creation on the planet, who knew nothing, no sin, nothing. She was as "innocent" in knowledge, as a "child".

Thus, you have obviously failed to recognize the analogy, which "does" have a direct parallel to your bible. Having no knowledge is considered a "good thing" per your bible - to be as innocent in knowledge as a child.

Matthew 18:3 - "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14 - "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.;"

Mark 10:15 - "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."

Luke 18:17 - "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."

In other words there Stormblade, knowledge is a bad thing. The symbollism in the Garden of Eden was about the "tree of knowledge". Eve, partook of "knowledge", and knew both yin and yang, good and evil. Therefore, "good and evil", existed in the garden before she became aware of "evil" - symbolized as a serpent.

Again, do you suggest that you are as knowledgeable as a "god", any "god", then you can know no more than you understand - you are a child, and the bible speaks highly of "not" being a wise and knowledgeable person. Even to the point, that some who are wise will "not" enter heaven.

Again, the parable of a "child" or "infant" is spot on, with an Eve in a garden who was as "innocent" in "knowledge" as a child. And, god as an omniscient parent, allowing her to Damn humanity forever, knowing she was innocent. And, who provoked this evil act? Who created the Serpent? Your God, do you deny that your god is not "once again" the creator of "all"?

Stormblade: "You used the mother as God and the neighbor as Jesus, as if they were two seperate beings and didn't like each other. Again wrong in accordance to the teachings of the bible. Instead the bible teaches that God and Jesus were as one.

John 10:30"I and the Father are One."

Really. And, so, do you care to explain the opposites here.

Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18 - "And he said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34 - "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Mark 16:19 - "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."

John 8:40 - "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God."

John 14:28 - "My Father is greater than I."

John 20:17 - "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Acts 17:31 - "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

1 Corinthians 11:3 - "The head of Christ is God."

1 Corinthians 15:28 - "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Colossians 3:1 - "Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

1 Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Stormblade: "Again wrong, Genesis 3:8 "Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden."

God showed up, after they had taken a bite from the fruit, not before.

Stormblade: "Sounds to me like they were'nt seperated at birth. In fact if you read Genesis you will find that God is quite present."

God, and Eve as well as Adam were indeed separated at birth, in terms of knowledge. Even to this day, you suggest we are "separated" in knowledge and presence from your god. How is it so hard for you to not associate your belief back to the day Eve lived?

By the way, Eve is evil/yin and Adam is good/yang, just another opposite. Evil tempted good and good fell from grace along with evil. Shall we continue with the opposite game?

Stormblade: "Where does it say Jesus expected to be "better, more just, logical, and loving"? Where are you drawing these conclusions from because they are not in the bible."

Per your bible, Jesus came to "save" humanity, thus, they were condemned by "god", El, of the Old Testament. Do you not believe that Jesus came to save you from eternal hell? If you do, then you must then believe that being saved from hell is "better" than being left to go to hell, per the god of the Old Testament. Perhaps, you don't find hell such a bad thought, but most Christians do.

And, Jesus took the position of "judgment" over all of humanity; because he obviously didn't believe the god of the Old Testament was either "capable" or "willing".

John 5:22 - "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son."

John 5:26-27 - "The Father ... hath given him authority to execute judgment."

John 9:39 - "And Jesus said, For judgement I am come into this world."

2 Corinthians 5:10 - "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ."

Revelation 19:11 - "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

Jesus came to abolish the law and commandments given by the Jewish God El. Paul detested the Jewish Law, and Pharisees and the letter of the law, he stated Jesus was come to liberate all of humanity through Jesus. Thus, Jesus was the savior for suffering, does that not make him "better" than the one/god who imposed suffering?

Matthew 5:17-18 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law of the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished."

Your god in theory, made a mistake with the codes of law, and all prophesy of the first coming. Thus, Jesus had to come and fulfill all prophesy that the first god created. The old prophesy was never fulfilled based on Old Testament scripture. So, Jesus came to overcome the "illogical", "wrong", "unjust", etc., laws of a god, because the god made a mistake - a perfect god made a mistake? I'll let you think about that.

If you would like me to quote the bible to show you where Jesus failed to fulfill the biblical prophesy in the Old Testament, so that the New Testament could become authoritative, just let me know.

Stormblade: "No, Eve chose to disobey God and to sin. Eve was then stained with sin. Anything that has sin can't be a part of God. Thus Eve was then separated from God."

You're telling me your god isn't omniscient? You are stating right here and right now, that your god is not capable of knowing Eve would sin? Okay, then why call your god a god? Your observation at the lack of ability in your god - not mine.

I think many Christians would state that god is omniscient, and that god would in fact know that Eve would sin, thus, your god before he created Eve knew she would sin. Unless, your god created Eve without having a plan - and then your god is irresponsible. Again, something that many Christians would not suggest there god is capable of - irresponsibility.

Stormblade: "It wasn't planned that Eve would sin. No where does it say that sin was planned."

John 21:17 - "Lord, thou knowest all things."

Colossians 2:2-3 - "Of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

Oh, contraire there Stormblade, per your bible, your god, always knew what would happen, as your god knowest "all" things, that was "before" he created Eve. If you don't like it, you can always do what many other Christians do, and just ignore your bible.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Bladerunner, as for the children thing you need to read the verses around the verse you select to prove a point.

Matthew 18:3"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus wasn't talking about knowledge he was talking about humbleness. Read the next verse.

Matthew 18:4"Therefore anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdonm of Heavan."

It doesn't say stupid, or without knowledge, or lack of knowledge but instead it says humble. For the other verses it's the same thing. It's not saying be without knowledge and enter, it's saying be humble like a child.

Bladerunner:"God showed up, after they had taken a bite from the fruit, not before."

No, read the bible if you want to try and prove a point about the bible. Don't just read selected verses.

Genesis 2:15-17 "The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and care for it. But the Lord God gave him this warning:'You may freely eat any fruit int the garden except fruit from the the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die."

This was before the apple and it clearly states that God commanded Adam. How could He command him unless He had direct contact with Adam. Clearly God was with them.

Bladerunner:"By the way, Eve is evil/yin and Adam is good/yang, just another opposite"

No, Adam also took a bite out of the apple and was as just as guilty.

Genesis 3:6 "The woman was convinced. The fruit lookes so fresh and delicious, and it would make her so wise! So she ate some of the fruit. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her. Then he ate it, too."

It's clear here that there is no yin/yang of good and evil between Adam and Eve. They both took a bite of the apple.

Bladerunner:" then you must then believe that being saved from hell is "better" than being left to go to hell,"

God didn't leave us to go to hell, if he did why would there be an old testament. There would be no reason for one, all that would be needed is the new testament but if you look at a bible you'll notice there's an old and a new testament.

Bladerunner:"because he obviously didn't believe the god of the Old Testament was either "capable" or "willing"."

Show me where it's obvious that Jesus didn't believe God was capable.

Bladerunner:"I'd say you should pray to your god on this, but he doesn't respect you enough to answer your prayers."

The verses you used came from an old english bible. Language back then was much differeent than language today. Words that meant certain things then mean different things now.

If you read a modern version or a version translated from greek you'll find that it's not saying that God doesn't respect people but instead that God doesn't show favoritism.

Bladerunner:""Then God sent an evil spirit "

Sent being a key word in all these verses as well as from. God has every right to hand us over to the devil and destroy us all. But he chose not to because he loves us. What God did wasn't evil, it doesn't say that the God was in any way evil.

Bladerunner:"Jesus came to abolish the law and commandments given by the Jewish God El."

You already disproved yourself on this one. You also said Paul detested the laws. Show me where.

Please do show me where Jesus didn't fulfill.

No where did I state that God didn't know that Eve would sin.

Bladerunner:"your god created Eve without having a plan - and then your god is irresponsible."

God did have a plan, that plan was Jesus Christ.

How many times do we need to go over this? God knew it would happen that doesn't mean he planned it to happen. If I know something is going to happen that doesn't mean I plan for that something to happen.

Zach · 3 years ago

Dano,
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.

You said: "The ExChristian.Net/Ex-Christian.Net websites are open to all with the stipulations that they not be used for a spam medium or a place to verbally abuse Ex-Christians."

No where have I seen a Christian come onto this blog and verbally abuse Ex-Christians, yet. However I think that you may have missed my point. My only point, for now, was that time should be spent arguing rather than complaining about the fact that Christians can post their ideas as well. Your last sentence seems to agree with me on this point so, I am not exactly sure what you where trying to tell me.


Bladerunner,
First of all, thank you for your post. That is exactly the type of post that I think should be encouraged.

"do you know what everyone cares about on a regular basis?"

lol, Unfortunately, no. I suppose that I was assuming that the fact that I spent time on this site wouold not gain much attention. I guess I was wrong.

"I have had much time to ponder upon those xtian things that had a negative impact on my life."

I am sorry that xtianity, as a religion, failed you. I would be curious to hear what exactly made you leave, however I understand that it is a very personal subject.

"Many xtians show up, not to discuss, but to proselytize."

I completely agree with this statement. Unfortunately, that attribute is what turns away many non-believers such as yourself. Anything that I have to say, I hope, will never be an attempt to condemn you or put myself on a pedastal.

"However, it's likely you will find a group that will entertain your questions, and give you sincere discussion, if that is your intent."

You are most likely right on the fact that they are other places that I could find discussion. However, I came to this site because the story about the youth pastor. So, I took interest in the discussions on this site. The fact that there is such a range of responses is interesting in itself. I understand that ex-Christians, who just recently broke from Christianity would not be in a debating mood as much as yourself. However, wouldn't it make sense for them to get involved, to strengthen their beliefs. If they had such problems with Christianity, wouldn't arguing just strengthen their beliefs? I mean to say, that if they believe that they are right in rejecting Christianity, they should welcome testing of those beliefs.

"So, do you suggest that the web-site's purpose is to not stir when Christians post?"

I believe the exact opposite.

"It appears, you want a specific "type" of discussion to dominate this site, and create its purpose."

That is also exactly not what I believe. I think that ex-Christians should be able to find community, if that is what they desire. I believe that many Ex-Christians on this site want exactly what you proposed that I wanted. I believe that community is important, however, an excess is unhealthy, and therefore, the purpose of this website should just include healthy discussion (whether heated or not). I believe that all Ex-Christians, of all levels of resentment, should be tested on their beliefs, just as I believe all Christians should be tested on their faith. Correct me if I'm wrong on that issue.

"Sometimes, we must take apart the engine in order to see how it works. Once, everyone is clear on how and why it works, can a true discussion ensue on the merits and shortcomings of the philosophy."

I completely agree. I think that one of the biggest weaknesses of Christians today is their lack of questioning of their own faith. I admit that many Christians blindly follow the church instead of thinking through the issues themselves.

"Do you see a shortage of postings from both sides?"

No, I don't. And that was my point.

"many times, xtians don't read any of the articles posted on this site, nor do they take into account that those they are conversing with, are just out of a bad relationship - something to think about. No one likes to be lied to, before their betrothed marriage - only to find out later the truth."

Well said. However I disagree with one statement. You assume that you have now found THE truth. Doesn't the saying go: "the wise man realizes that he knows nothing,"? I think that many things that I believe about God are true, however, I realize that I will never find the complete truth. Obviously, I cannot directly prove the existence of God to a point where there can be no doubt. You also cannot prove to me that there is no God, without leaving some sort of doubt. By claiming that you have now found the truth, aren't you falling into the same trap that you criticize Christians for? Just a thought.

"However... Zach, you couldn't be suggesting that everyone be expected to heal at the same exact rate - or are you?"

I never would attempt to suggest such a thing, and I am sorry if that is what you took from what I said. I do feel that an important part of healing is discussion on your feelings, and that is what I encourage. However, I also believe that Ex-Christians will never fully heal, and the gap will never be filled without God. But that is just me, and I do not assume that you believe the same.

"Personally, I think it's a good thing for xtians to come onto this site and see the varied reasons people leave the fold."

I agree. I also believe that Ex-Christians should be tested of their beliefs as well (which I have mention previously).

"perhaps you are seeking a site that is more restrictive, and focused on civil debate only - that of course, removes the human factor - but then, so does much of religion."

That is also the opposite of what I am looking for. The human factor is precisely what I find to be the most thought-provoking and interesting part of this site.

Hopefully I have cleared up a little of the misunderstandings that you have about what I was trying to say.

Zach

boomSLANG · 3 years ago

No, read the bible if you want to try and prove a point about the bible. Don't just read selected verses.

Yet interestingly, it seems the one making this statement has extracted and referenced specific biblical verses to "prove" their point. Slightly hypocritical, yet, not too shocking.

Here's my point---whether one picks up "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" and reads, starting on page 1, all the way through until the end---or whether they start on page 22 and read until they fall asleep---a fable is a fable is a fable. If we can conclude that "Sneezy" is a fictitious character based on events in "chapter 2", then we needn't worry about what context "Sneezy" acts out his parts later on.

If I state that "human beings absolutely cannot live in a whale's intestinal tract", you wouldn't say, "but wait...the bible doesn't actually say 'intestinal tract'." To point that out would be an irrelevant distinction. Here's why: Bottom line?...human beings cannot "live in a whale", period. The "sky" is not a "firmament". Period. Snakes don't talk. Period. They don't even have "vocal chords"....so as reasonable adults, we can conclude that this story about a talking snake being involved a "sting operation" set up by a "god", is a fable, a parable at best...i.e...NOT "real".

Yet, why do so many people suspend "reason" and "logic" in an attempt to reconcile these "stories"? Why don't people bend, contort, gather together and froth at the mouth in an attempt to validate "Snow White" and her stumpy side-kick "dwarfs"? Why??? 'Simple...because Snow White isn't promising people that when they die, they can be reunited with their deceased loved ones, and live happily ever after in clouds somewhere, in exchange for your belief in her.

As soon as you can come to terms and accept the concept of your own non-existance(death), the stories of the bible instantly become every bit as ridiculous as any other fairy tale.(actually, more ridiculous, but that's another story)

God'less.

boomSLANG · 3 years ago

I also believe that Ex-Christians should be tested of their beliefs as well

And which "beliefs" would those be? Most "ex-Christians" merely hold a position of neutrality towards Jesus, or any other meta-physical phenomenon. BTW, should "ex-wives" also "be tested" to see if they were ever really married?

.. I also believe that Ex-Christians will never fully heal, and the gap will never be filled without God. But that is just me, and I do not assume that you believe the same.

Yes, emotional abuse from the guilt and fear brought on by religion may last a lifetime for some, yet, my policy is, the ugly truth beats a beautiful lie. And if this "gap" that you assume that all non-believers in "God" have is one of coersed "love", I'll take the "gap", thanks.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Zach said: "I believe that all Ex-Christians, of all levels of resentment, should be tested on their beliefs, just as I believe all Christians should be tested on their faith. Correct me if I'm wrong on that issue."

Stand corrected then, because your premise is flawed. Ex-Christians have rejected your mythological beliefs. Your beliefs have no validity whatsoever in the ex-Christian mind, any more than the stories about the Greek Gods and the teachings in the Koran have in your mind. All god stories are founded on fantasy. Once the blinders of "This is God's WORD!" are removed, too much of the Bible comes across as the sun-baked rantings of poor, ignorant, tribal primitives who didn't know a tiny fraction about the world that is elementary knowledge today.

Your simplistic attempt to level the playing field of "belief" by lumping rejection of your cult into the same pile as slavering cultic persuasion erroneous. Rejection of belief is not belief. Rejection of belief is skepticism, as in "I am skeptical of your fantastic stories, please provide some verifiable evidence that bushes can talk, snakes once had legs, trees can bear fruit that give knowledge and make people live forever, that angels exist, that angels can impregnate women and create giants, that ax heads can float, that flying fiery chariots exist, that an un-dead god-man is flying around out there somewhere waiting to save some people and throw the rest into an eternal torture chamber. These concepts are ridiculous, and the only reason they sound remotely reasonable to anyone is because in this culture we have been hearing this nonsense from infancy. Many of us believed whole-heartedly in the story of Santa with his flying reindeer and sleigh. That is a child's fantasy, and Christianity is an adult fantasy. There is absolutely no evidence corroborating any of the fantastic Bible stories. Until some evidence outside a book of myths, a story book, if you will, is brought forth, then just like the adult skepticism of the story of Rudolf the red-nosed reindeer, it is reasonable and rational to sincerely doubt that any of the goofy stories in the Bible ever happened.

Frankly, as the webmaster of this site, I could give a rat's ass what you believe about how this site should or should not be run. There are literally thousands of Christian websites of every stripe and description that are available for anyone wanting more information about Christianity or to test their position on the matter, as it were. No one here "needs" your help. As jovial as you are attempting to sound in your writing, you have failed miserably. Instead, you have only succeeded in coming off as condescending and authoritative. Now, in all fairness, I admit I am being authoritative right now. Well, DUH, this is our website, and ex-Christians have complete freedom on this site to sound any way they like, within the established law of the land.

Furthermore, I challenge you to find a single Christian website that is even one tenth as tolerant in allowing two-sided discussion when it comes to topics presented here. There may be one, but of the thousands of Christian websites out there, I have never heard of any. Honestly, though, I don't CARE what Christians are saying about anything on their websites. It's boring. However, you seem to care quite a bit about this ex-Christian website, and I am fairly certain it is because you feel compelled to proselytize and/or defend this pastor who has admitted to porking a minor under his tutelage.

Do you attend Greenwood Community Church with Stormblade? I have a feeling that you do.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

What if God really does love you?

Would you be willing to love Him back?

Why or why not?

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

And another member of Greenwood Community Church, where the youth pastor admits having sex with a teen in the congregation, checks in.

If God exists and truly loves you/me/them/everyone/anyone then HE would not demand to be loved back under threat of everlasting torment.

Love that is reciprocated under threat of torture is not love. Love that is offered with the stipulation that it be accepted under threat of torture for rejection of that love is not love.

Your fabled GOD has no concept of what love means.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Love offered under those conditions is repulsive. Therefore, my answer to your Greenwood evangelism question is NO.

Anonymous · 3 years ago

It's a free gift of love. It's not under threat of torture. We have the choice to love Him back or not. If we choose not to love Him back, then we choose to be seperated from Him. If we choose to love Him than we choose to be with Him.

Christianity or I should say the real christianity is not a religion based on rules or morals, in fact it's not even a religion. It's a personal relationship with God.

God is love. He created love and He loves you more than you know. You could spend your whole life saying you hate the idea of God and Jesus, but He will always love you.

You say why doesn't God intervene and help the people He created. While why do you think He sent me to this web site? I don't care about defending the bible or my religion. The whole reason I'm here typing to you right now is because God loves you and he sent me to tell you that. We could spend the next millior or trillion years debating over scripture and who's right and who's wrong but it's meaningless unless someone tells you that God loves you.

God loves you for who you are. He loves you for your heart. He loves you for the way you talk and the way you breathe. He loves the way you walk, He loves you. He loves watching you as a father loves watching his son. No matter how long it takes He will be waiting for you.

-Stormblade

Bently · 3 years ago

Great responces boomslang and WM..!

When will people realize that the human brain which weighs around 3-lbs, is the source of all beliefs and Biblical indoctrination?

Just as nursery rhymes and fables, I can recite Mother Goose and Itsy Bitsy Spider and many other useless rhymes, but I cannot recite any Mexican nursery rhymes, and I know about 4 Spanish words, why is this? Huh? Anyone know the answer?

Because I was not raised in a Spanish culture!

Had the Bible been written and presented entirely in Spanish only, then no one raised in the English language culture would be able to read the Bible, unless they had been taught how to read the Spanish language before hand.

So, my memories of the Bible God and Jesus dwell's amongst and along with, Mother Goose and silly songs and fables and myths past on by trusted guardians, memorized in the section of my brain that holds those indoctrinated memories.

By saying this means (and proves to me beyond a shadow of doubt) that the only place a Bible God and Jesus can only exist is in the section of memory in people's brains that has been ingrained through indoctrination, passed down as absolute truth.

Just as your parents were indoctrinated the very same way as you, and they accepted those Biblical teachings as absolute truths also.

It's the only way religins can spread and grow, through handed down indoctrination.

Like boomslang said, The only reason Mother Goose and fables are overlooked by Christians is, because those fables do not promise a heavenly reward and an eternal punishment for not believing the stories being true.

The Bible God and Jesus and all fables and myths and rhymes were formed from the human mind.

There cannot be a creator God, and later having regretted making people in the first place, because they were so wicked, and then entrust the descendants of the very same wicked people to write the this God's words down and leave them in charge of writing this same God's plan of salvation and depend on these very same descendants of wicked people of getting it absolutely correct, why are people so shallow?

The proof of this is in the many thousand of denomanations and religious sects and interpretations and beliefs and customs and traditions.

One God, one belief, one denomination? Where?

Can there exist a God this ignorant? I sure hope not!!

Then suddenly, after four thousand years, this God decided he could no longer save souls all by himself, he needed help, he need a help mate, and just whom would fit the bill? His son, tortured and scothed at and spit on and murdered on a cross, yeah that is just exactly what God needed, a son to be murdered, a sacrifice to himself so that souls may be saved, how freaking ridiculous!!!

There's no words to describe how frikkin ridiculous that whole story is.

The point is that, the section of the human brain where memories of heard Biblical stories, myths, fables, songs, and pertinent information, etc, are the only places a Bible God and Jesus can exist, after death, the brain ceases to function, all stored information is lost, gone forever, there is no thought after death, because there was no thought or awareness before you were born.

Your three pound brain is what tells you how to think and how to perceive the world and your environment, it also absorbs information like a sponge and it stores Biblical rhetoric perceievd as being truth, because it is being taught as being pure fact by people that have been deceived by what they want to believe, there's not any fact to the Bible, none, no more than the Qu'ran or Mother Goose or Santa Claus or any fables or myths, these are all the invention of people, compiled from fear and ignorance.

Need we say more? No! This is it, it's all here on this thread and those other wonderful threads and on others just as well!

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Bently, you are right on one thing. You're right that what God did was ridiculos. Why would Jesus die for someone like me? I don't deserve it. It's absurd is what it is. It's illogical that someone would die for someone that hates him.

Why would a God who is sitting comfortably in Heaven come down and be tortured so that maybe someone would believe in him? Especially for someone like me. I didn't ask for somebody to save me!!! I didn't ask for somebody to love me!!! If anything I just want to be left alone and live my own life. I'm not brave, I'm not strong, I'm not caring, I don't help people, why would anybody do something like that for me?!!!

And as ridiculous as it is God does love me. As absurd and illogical as anything can be God loves me. Why? I don't know. I don't see anything special about me, I don't see a good person when I look in the mirror yet for some reason God insists to love me. For some reason God see's something inside of me that I don't.

And as ridiculous as it is God will love me for the rest of my life no matter what I do. It's because of that love that I choose to love Him back. It's because of that love that I choose to seek Him with all my heart, all my soul, all my mind, and all my strenght. It's not because my parents believe or my friends or my leaders and mentors, it's because I have felt His love. I have felt His love in my heart, not in my head, it's not something made up in my memory and imagination, it's in my heart that I feel God.

There's no way to prove or disprove God, but I choose to believe in Him not because people tell me to or because I want to spend eternity in heavan, it's because He loves me.

-Stormblade

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Stormblade,

Why won't you answer my questions?

Here's another: Where in the Bible does it say that Christianity is a relationship and not a religion?

Waiting for the answers to my questions...

If you refuse to answer my questions, every post you've made will deleted and your IP address banned from this site.

See, I'm just like your God. You can either choose to obey me, or you will suffer the consequences.

Unlike your God, however, I'm real.

bently · 3 years ago

WM, I like that approach, if they refuse to be so disrespectful as to not answer our reasonale questions, then whammo gone! Yea, I like that.

Now answer the WM's questions ok?

While you're scrambling for your weasle wording apologetics, please read.

To say "God loves me" means nothing, it's just something you've heard other people say and you happen to think it sounds admirable saying such nonsense.

No one has ever seen a God, so you know nothing about a God's love, and you will say that people saw Jesus, according to a book they did, but not you, you haven't seen Jesus.

Do you think that your mother and father had your intended salvation in their minds at the exact moment of your fathers orgasm?

Do you think your father was thinking about either God or Jesus at the exact moment of ejaculation?

Jesus did not die for you, you were not there.


S-B:"It's because of that love that I choose to seek Him with all my heart, all my soul, all my mind, and all my strenght. It's not because my parents believe or my friends or my leaders and mentors, it's because I have felt His love. I have felt His love in my heart, not in my head, it's not something made up in my memory and imagination, it's in my heart that I feel God."


If God is everywhere, why do you need to seek him? Where are you seeking him at? In your heart? Your heart pumps blood only, God is not in your heart, neither is a God's love, you're fantasizing in your own memtal delusion.

There's nothing to believe, yet you want to believe in invisible beings, so ignorant, blinded by fear.

Passerby · 3 years ago

StormBlade,
You are living in a delusional world filled with fantasies.

You are no different from the Muslim who believes in Allah with all his heart. Telling a muslim fundamentalist their god is not real will provoke the same response as you. These people have been brainwashed and are delusional, just like you.

You are no different from the Raelian(http://www.rael.org/), in which some members believe they were actually abducted by aliens. These people truly believe they were abducted by space aliens and studied on an alien spaceship. Telling these people they have not experienced these abductions will provoke a response of, "how do you know I didn't experience these space aliens, were you there!" There are at least 1 million people in the U.S. who think they have been abducted by space aliens.

StormBlade, you were brainwashed to believe in a religious cult...plain and simple. Or, is it possible you are making money by fleecing the flock?


You will never, EVER, prove your piece of shit god is real. He is real to you, just as Allah is real to a muslim.

Just in case you missed it---you, StormBlade, will never, ever, prove your God is real.


Cheers, and have a great Winter Solstice.


BTW, May your Jealous God bless you during this time of year where you worship the birth of the "SUN" Gods.

Passerby · 3 years ago

Opps, I missed StormBlade's last post.

At least StormBlade realizes he can't prove his god is real. Good for him. However, StormBlade said we can't disprove his God.

StormBlade, the burden of proof lies upon the one making outrageous claims to prove their claim is true. Saying there is no God is not an outrageous statement, as there is no evidence of a god or gods.

StormBlade, disprove my belief in pink flying pigs? Or disprove the existence of Budha? Or disprove the existence of Allah? You can't...comprehend?

Cheers, and have a great Winter Solstice.

Zach · 3 years ago

I first would like to apologize to any and everyone who I may of offended with my post. Looking back, I can see where I may have come across as condescending and authoritative. However that was not my intention, and therefore I apologize.


boomslang,

"Most "ex-Christians" merely hold a position of neutrality towards Jesus, or any other meta-physical phenomenon."

I'm not exactly sure if I understand you correctly, but it sounds like you are saying that you neither believe or disbelief that Jesus was a "supernatural" being. If I am correct in my assumption, it seems almost though you are contradicting all of your previous statements.

"BTW, should "ex-wives" also "be tested" to see if they were ever really married?"

I'm also not quite sure what you meant by this analogy. I think you may have misunderstood my use of the word "tested." I simply meant that I feel that everyone, Christian or not, should not be allowed to live their lives without questioning their own beliefs. I feel Christians should not just accept all of the ideas of the Bible like they are being spoonfed. I also believe that non-Christians are making a mistake if they blindly reject Christ without clearly thinking and digging through the issues. You may disagree with me there.

"Yes, emotional abuse from the guilt and fear brought on by religion may last a lifetime for some, yet, my policy is, the ugly truth beats a beautiful lie. And if this "gap" that you assume that all non-believers in "God" have is one of coersed "love", I'll take the "gap", thanks."

Christianity is not a religion of guilt or fear, so I am sorry that it failed you so badly. What Christ teaches is love and acceptance, and not condemnation or rejection. However, I admitted in my last post that I doubted whether we would agree about the "gap" issue, so I won't go into it too much. I just believe that God has a place in every humans heart (for lack of a better word), and unless that person allows God in, there will always be that gap. I have felt that gap. And I have also felt God fill that gap. But, I cannot read into you, and therefore, I cannot tell whether you are feeling that gap or not.


Webmaster,

"Stand corrected then, because your premise is flawed. Ex-Christians have rejected your mythological beliefs. Your beliefs have no validity whatsoever in the ex-Christian mind, any more than the stories about the Greek Gods and the teachings in the Koran have in your mind."

I'm not sure you understand what I was trying to say. That is probably my fault, because I am not nearly as gifted a writer as I wish. Let me ask you a question: Do ex-Christians have beliefs? Or do they just have a lack of belief in the Christian God? It seems as though every ex-Christian on this site has very strong beliefs (according to dictionary.com: beliefs are opinions or convictions). All I was trying to say is that all beliefs should not go unquestioned. You would be making a mistake to not question your beliefs. However, from what you have written, it is very clear that you have spent much time thinking through what you believe in. Another question: If my "God stories" have absolutely no validity in your mind, then where do you get your basis for right and wrong? I am assuming that as a human being, you know what is considered good and what is considered bad. Did you come up with the criteria? If so, what gave you the right to do so? Do you consider yourself wiser, or more knowledgable on what is right or wrong? If someone else gave you the idea of right and wrong, then what makes them so special? The fact is, my "God stories" do have more merit than you would like to give them credit for. There are countless verses in the Bible, that as a descent human being, you would agree with. You have already expressed how little weight the Bible has on this site, so I won't waste my time listing them. You may not believe in David and Goliath, or Christ's resurrection, to name the most identifiable "God stories," however you cannot avoid the simple fact that the Bible holds truths that we all believe. The same goes for Greek mythology, or Islam. I personally do not believe in the Greek gods or in Muhammad, however there are many themes and teachings that I believe hold truth in my life (more from Islam than Greek mythology admittedly). Therefore, COMPLETELY rejecting the Bible is unwise, and somewhat foolish.

"Rejection of belief is not belief. Rejection of belief is skepticism."

Ok, so are you telling me that you believe in nothing? Given the definition of belief, that I provided above, can you honestly say that there is nothing in this life that you believe in? The life that you claim is one of emptyness and one that I would take a life of Christianity over any day.

"I am skeptical of your fantastic stories, please provide some verifiable evidence that..."

You are right. I even find it hard to believe that in today's world all of the things that you described could take place. (although several of the things you mentioned are not correctly taken from the Bible). However, I challenge you to disprove all of those occurrences, so there is no doubt. Unless you are an expert in meta-physics, genealogy, molecular research, etc. I doubt that you will be able to. To claim that none of these occurences could remotely be possible is a pretty big claim. One that I don't believe any human can make. I believe that I follow an all-powerful God. One that can make all those things happen. I personally, cannot explain all of the amazing things that the Bible tells, because I cannot even pretend to have the knowledge in those areas. But I do believe in the possibility of amazing things happening. Things that go unexplained. I choose to attribute those things to God. What do you chose to attribute them to? Or do you choose to ignore them?

"Frankly, as the webmaster of this site, I could give a rat's ass what you believe about how this site should or should not be run."

Point taken. I will not try and tell you how to run this website. I was just voicing my opinion, just like all of your fellow ex-Christians. I am willing to accept the fact that you don't want me here. And therefore, if you wish, I will stop posting. However, I enjoy hearing what you and others have to say. I am not content in sitting in a little "Christian tea party." I want to test my beliefs. And as a place for ex-Christians, shouldn't you be trying to pull the so-called "veil" from over my eyes. No promises on whether you will succeed in changing my beliefs, however I am listening to your every word. And I realize that you are being gracious for allowing me to do so. So thank you. I have not checked on the "thousands" of Christian websites out there, but I will take your word for it that there are less than a handful of websites that allow such diverse points of view. Therefore, I am complementing what you are allowing to take place on this website. And I am being 100% serious, so I'm sorry if I am sounding condescending again.

"However, you seem to care quite a bit about this ex-Christian website, and I am fairly certain it is because you feel compelled to proselytize and/or defend this pastor who has admitted to porking a minor under his tutelage."

My intentions on this website are none other than to learn and to discuss. Undoubtedly, I have and will express my opinions. If you want to consider that proselytizing, then I guess you are right. However, I am here to listen to what you have to say, as much as I hope you respect me and listen to what I have to say. But I realize that this is your website, and therefore you have no obligation to respect me. And never will you hear me trying to defend what this pastor did. I believe that there is no excuse for such actions, and I believe that he should be punished as much as the judge and jury decide is necessary.

"Do you attend Greenwood Community Church with Stormblade? I have a feeling that you do."

I hesitate to answer this question, because I know that you may end up judging me and discriminating against me because of it. I used to attend Greenwood Community Church. I now live in St. Paul. However I feel that Greenwood should not be discriminated against because of the actions of one man. This man screwed up, and screwed up big time. So I hope you can treat me as an individual, and judge me for my own actions, rather than those of that pastor.


Bently,

I am going to answer your argument simply. Please don't take offense. This 3-pound brain is going to choose to believe that God not only exists, but is present in my life. Just like you have made clear that your 3-pound brain is going to choose to reject any notion of a God. What's your point?

Back to Webmaster,

I hope you don't mind, but I am going to take a stab at the question you asked Stormblade.

"Where in the Bible does it say that Christianity is a relationship and not a religion?"

Technically, the Bible never states that Christianity is a religion. Christianity, as a religion, was not officially take shape until the Edict of Milan in 313, and the Council of Nicea in 318. The last book of the Bible is estimated to have been written at about 66-95 A.D. That is several hundred years after the Bible was written, to when the Christian religion was formed. I know that this must sound awful "nit-picky," but it is a direct answer to your question. But if you want to redefine your definition of religion, than your question is a good one.

To give your question a better, more philosophical answer, I am going to have to break my rule of no quoting the Bible. In John 15:1-10 Jesus says the word "remain" 11 times. He emphasizes the importance in keeping in "relationship" with Him. The term "Christianity" was never specifically coined in the Bible, but was instead given as the name for the religion of "following" Christ. The term "Christian" however was used in the Bible, 1 Peter 4:16, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. In the Bible, the word Christian, specifically meant, "one who walks with Christ". In other words, in order to be a true Christian, you had to have a relationship with Christ. Unfortunately, today, the term simply means: someone who attends church, and chooses to call themselves a Christian. This fake world of Christianity is no doubt what you have encountered, and therefore has turned you off.

I hope I have answered your question sufficiently.


Bently,

"To say "God loves me" means nothing, it's just something you've heard other people say and you happen to think it sounds admirable saying such nonsense."

To me, the fact that God loves me is very real. It may mean nothing to you, but to pretend that it means nothing in this world, to anyone, is not wise.

"No one has ever seen a God, so you know nothing about a God's love, and you will say that people saw Jesus, according to a book they did, but not you, you haven't seen Jesus."

You're right. No one that you know has seen God in physical form. However, such people as Moses have "seen" God, and therefore, we do have glimpses of God's nature. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and therefore I believe that His character is revealed to me through it. Undoubtedly, you believe that the Bible is not the Word of God, so I can understand that you know nothing about God. And even fellow ex-Christians know that Jesus walked this earth, however they would probably not agree on His godliness.

"Do you think that your mother and father had your intended salvation in their minds at the exact moment of your fathers orgasm? Do you think your father was thinking about either God or Jesus at the exact moment of ejaculation?"

I'd rather not picture my father at the point of my conception, but to entertain the question, I will. To be truthful, I have no idea what connections you are trying to make through this. But to answer the question, I would say no, most likely my father had other things in mind at that exact moment.

"Jesus did not die for you, you were not there."

Let me answer this by asking you a question. Do you believe that we should be taking action against global warming? Why, or why not? Most likely, you will answer that we should. And most likely, one of the major reasons, is that we must look out for the future, whether it is our future children, or not. Now, if I have the knowledge and ability to save the world, and stop global warming, shouldn't I do so? I believe that I should, because I care about the future of humanity. And I am no where near being a perfect person. So are you saying that a person several generations from me, cannot say that I saved the world for them? Are they not a part of humanity? Answer this question, and I think you will answer your own.

"If God is everywhere, why do you need to seek him?"

You're right. Christians believe that God is omnipresent. However, I am going to answer your question by bringing up another analogy. Let's say that you have a girlfriend/wife or a boyfriend/husband. That person is around you all the time. You are constantly doing things together, and you are never apart. But let's also say that you never speak to this person. Let's say that neither of you acknowledge each other's existence. This may be a stretch, but stay with me. Would you say that there is a strong need for you to begin "relating" with that person. In order for any healthy relationship to take place, there needs to be some "seeking" going on. You can't be in a relationship with that person if you completely ignore them! The same thing is true with humans and God.

"Your heart pumps blood only, God is not in your heart, neither is a God's love, you're fantasizing in your own memtal delusion."

I'm going to assume that Stormblade was not talking about the anatomical heart, but rather figurative one. Scientists have recently discovered that there is a part of the brain that's function is best described as being the "soul" of the person. It is this idea that most people use when they say "heart." And you are right, my belief in God comes from my brain. As well as my belief that the earth is round. However God, Himself, does not exist in my brain. But I suppose that is an argument for a different time.

"There's nothing to believe, yet you want to believe in invisible beings, so ignorant, blinded by fear."

That is where you are wrong. Christianity is quickly becoming the fastest growing religion, because people elsewhere in the world are tasting the love and the hope of Jesus. You can choose not to believe it, and you have the absolute human right to do so. However, there most certainly is something to believe in. And last time I checked, I was not guilt-ridden, or in any state of fear. In fact, I am in the greatest peace that I have ever experienced in my life.



Once again, I am sorry if I came/come across in an inappropriate way. I only hope to learn and discuss, not proselytize. I cannot pretend that I know everything about God and Christianity, because it would be foolish and untruthful. If it sounds as though I am acting in this way, I apologize.

Zach

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Webmaster, tests:

Deuteronomy 13:1-3"Suppose there are prophets who have dreams about the future and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'come let us worship the gods of foreign nations,; do not listen to them. The Lord yr God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul."

Psalm 66:10 "You have tested us, O God; you have purified us like silver melted in a crucible."

2 Corinthians 13:5-6 "Examine yourselves to see if your faith is really genuine. Test yourselves. If you cannot tell that Jesus Christ is among you , it means you have failed the test. I hope you recognize that we have passed the test and are approved by God."


Relationship with God:

Mark 12:29-30 "Jesus replied, 'the most important commandment is this: Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strenght."

James 2:23 "And so it happened just as the Scriptures say:'Abraham believed God, so God declared him to be righteous.' He was even called 'the friend of God."

1 John 3:1 "See how very much our heavenly Father loves us, for he allows us to be called his children, and we really are!
But the people who beong to this world don't know God, so they don't understand that we are his children."

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been made right in God's sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us."

1 Corinthians 6:19 "Do you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have revieved from God?"

-Stormblade

Passerby · 3 years ago

Zach,
You're a smart guy who uses logic and reason to make rational decisions. I'm sure you know what a fable is too, right? Just in case you don't.

Fable - noun
1. a short tale to teach a moral lesson, often with animals or inanimate objects as characters.
2. a story not founded on fact.
3. a story about supernatural or extraordinary persons or incidents.
4. legends or myths collectively.
5. an untruth; falsehood.
6. the plot of an epic, a dramatic poem, or a play.

Zach, did you get that? One of the meanings of a fable is a tale where animals talk.

Tell me something, do you believe a snake, a donkey and a bush spoke with humans, that these animals actually had a conversation with humans? Do you actually believe these mythological stories occurred? How can you as a rational human being believe in these stories of ancient men?

Do you also believe a person lived in whale for 3 days and 3 nights? This is absolutely ludicrous, right? This is a mythological story...plain and simple. Or are you totally brainwashed and will say, "well, god will reveal all unknowns in the future."

Do you believe in a horny ghost who inserted his magic wand up a virgin girl's dress, unloaded his holy load, and out popped a man god? There were many other virgin births preceeding your version of a god. Do you believe in those stories?

Hello, Zach---you home!!!


This is just a sample of the tall tales in your Bible. It's just amazing how one can suspend logic when it comes to a belief in a god(s)---this is called "cognitive dissonance."

http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/dissonance.htm
"Cognitive dissonance was first investigated by Leon Festinger and associates, arising out of a participant observation study of a cult which believed that the earth was going to be destroyed by a flood, and what happened to its members — particularly the really committed ones who had given up their homes and jobs to work for the cult — when the flood did not happen. While fringe members were more inclined to recognise that they had made fools of themselves and to "put it down to experience", committed members were more likely to re-interpret the evidence to show that they were right all along (the earth was not destroyed because of the faithfulness of the cult members)."


Cheers and have a great Winter Solstice.

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Zach: "Well said. However I disagree with one statement. You assume that you have now found THE truth. Doesn't the saying go: "the wise man realizes that he knows nothing,"?"

And, why shouldn't I understand that proverb to mean that knowledge will never provide "truth". Interesting, truth in that context means a holy book of words, is "not" where one would find truth :-)

Zach: "I think that many things that I believe about God are true,..."

And, did you get those "things" you believe about your god, from "words" in a book.

Zach: "...however, I realize that I will never find the complete truth. Obviously, I cannot directly prove the existence of God to a point where there can be no doubt."

The concept of God was created to explain the "unknown", like rain, volcanoes, earthquakes, etc., etc., throughout history. The Christian god used to be responsible for all natural occurrences, and yet, not science has shown the reason we have natural weather patterns, or environmental changes. Thus, god from the inception of Christianity has been redefined, over, and over, to represent the "next" unknown. It's that "unknown", that defines and creates your god.

If you ever know your "god", in any fashion, then your god is no longer "supernatural", because you have found some connection in your natural life with them. Thus, why I asked a few questions about "separation", it's the separation that creates god. Else, those who are connected have become god-like to some degree.

The more one knows their god, the more natural their god becomes. And, the one identifying factor of the Christian god, as opposed to the over 4,000 gods recorded throughout history, is that they are "supernatural". Thus, they are the one responsible for all actions, and their will is beyond our understanding. That was what the original Roman Clergy, intended god to represent, and they claimed that only they had the ability to interpret god's plan from the bible - The early Roman Catholic Church.

Zach: "You also cannot prove to me that there is no God, without leaving some sort of doubt."

Zach, your god has been disproved piece by piece over history, for being responsible for many things, based on science. It's why science is considered an anathema to god, in many religious circles. And, as the Christian god has been shaved away slowly but surely, the Christian has had to "redefine" their god, outside the bible.

Talking snakes, donkeys, burning bushes, etc., etc. Ever wonder why your god is considered "supernatural". It's because the early philosophers, and sciences were shredding the absurdity of the early god, thus, god was shoved outside of reason and philosophy - so, no one could touch him. The Jewish god, was monistic early on, and Natural. Christian clergy early in the creation of the Christine doctrine, made him Supernatural.

Zach; "...By claiming that you have now found the truth, aren't you falling into the same trap that you criticize Christians for? Just a thought."

We each hold individual truths we gain in life. Then... there is life, which either reflects my personal truths or they don't. I seek truth, therefore, what is in my purview of reality. For me to suggest that I don't know everything is to say, I quite well understand what is in front of me in reality, yet, I can grow in greater knowledge, as my sphere of reality expands through exploration of space and research.

However, my knowledge, will always remain natural, as "I" am a natural being, whatever I process as knowledge, must therefore be "naturally" based and understood. Thus, your supernatural god is not something I will ever know according to my natural understanding. The Christian theology has removed their god from understanding, not I.

Amazing, though, that so many Christians seem to be able to eloquently discuss exactly what their god wants, thinks, believes, plans, executes, etc., etc., all the way down to what god looks like. Don't you find that amazing since god is beyond Nature per the Christian?

Zach: "I never would attempt to suggest such a thing, and I am sorry if that is what you took from what I said. I do feel that an important part of healing is discussion on your feelings, and that is what I encourage. However, I also believe that Ex-Christians will never fully heal, and the gap will never be filled without God. But that is just me, and I do not assume that you believe the same."

Well, at least you are honest. Realize however, that if you feel god is the piece in our lives that will fill any gaps, or anger salve, that the Christian god is beyond understanding and in a transcendent realm beyond the understanding of the mere mortal.

Part of the anger, suffering, and recovery is centered on the message that was conveyed to people when they were religious. For the most part, the message is conflicted, non-sensical, and emotionally bound. This is how religion is taught in the U.S. I was never sat down and shown the bible, I had to read it for myself, and after reading it and taking University level courses and receiving a degree from a Christian college, it finally made sense. The sense, is that the bible fails to support the religion, being promoted in the U.S. Most Christians (not all), run around talking about a "loving" god, without a sinful or evil nature. Yet, we have Stormblade who appears to not have read the bible over at least "once".

Now, the Christian proselytizes/evangelizes, and tries/asks the non-believer to return back to an emotionally charged, non-reasonable, absurd ideology that has no reflection of the literal bible. Thus, it boils down to just accepting someone's words as truth, without any foundation.

I personally, believe that all people have problems, to include the Pastor who admitted having sex with a minor. So, since all people are human, why wouldn't I demand the religious leader, or even follower to explain their belief... I ask everyone else to explain the foundation of their statements, why wouldn't I ask the religious?

Typically, an emotional plea will be met with an emotional response. A logical plea will be evaluated on logical grounds.

Passerby · 3 years ago

Zach,
You said you wanted to learn.

Zach: "Christianity is quickly becoming the fastest growing religion, because people elsewhere in the world are tasting the love and the hope of Jesus."


"Note that being the “Fastest growing religion” says nothing about the truth of that religion. (See Argumentum ad populum)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion



The statistic of particular interest is:
"The most rapidly growing religious/spiritual/ethics grouping in the US is not an organized religion; it consists of non-believers (Atheists, Agnostics, etc.)."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/us_rel1.htm


Of course statistics can be molded to create a desired outcome, but the last stat was a breath of fresh air.

Cheers and have a great Winter Solstice

Anonymous · 3 years ago

Zach,
You are proud of your faith in the supernatural. That puts you in the same category with Ben Laden and all of the other people down through history who have had "faith." That puts you right smack dab in the same category as all those Muslim kids who have been taught from the time they learned to first speak, to believe in Allah and that Mohammed is their profit. That puts you in the same group who have been seeing the end of the world in every world event for the last 2000 years.
I don't have faith in anything magical but I do have "Hope," and I hope that you will wake up someday and realize that your faith is what is keeping you from becoming everything that you can be. The problem isn't that you or I don't have enough faith, FAITH IS THE PROBLEM!
Dan (ex-faithful)

bently · 3 years ago

To Zach,
My comments were directed to Stormblade, because I thought you were just observing our comments to view your beliefs objectivly, but since you insist on engaging in the topic, I will address my comments to you.


My point is that the brain is the only place a God and Biblical figures and beliefs can exist, because that premise of a God was put there by other humans, you nor anyone were born with a concept of a God already placed in your brain.

Just as your native language was learned by hearing and repeating, just so as the Bible and it's nonsense was learned by the same process.

If you do not believe this, just imagine all people gone from the face of the Earth, God and Jesus and Biblical myths suddenly disappear, where did they go? They left, because they were only concepts accepted as truths placed in your mind by other humans.

Then Zach said,
"You're right. No one that you know has seen God in physical form. However, such people as Moses have "seen" God, and therefore, we do have glimpses of God's nature. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God"

John 3:18 No man hath seen God at any time.

So who are we to believe here, you, John, Moses?

Zach " I believe that the Bible is the Word of God"

Nowhere have you said that you know for sure the Bible is the word of God, you believe it is.

I do not believe it is the word of god, I "know" it's not the word of a god.

How do I know, because the bible has been translated over 1600 times if this god wanted everyone on the planet to "know" that the bible was "the" word of a god it would not have needed to have been translated, isn't this god supposed to be knowable? But only after his words are translated by men.

Then Zach wrote, "Another question: If my "God stories" have absolutely no validity in your mind, then where do you get your basis for right and wrong? I am assuming that as a human being, you know what is considered good and what is considered bad."

If the Bible is the foundation of the moral code, then how can a god called preacher sexually assault a 16 year old child?

Yet you all defend this pastor and this church, but to admit that the bible and the pastor was wrong would mean that you and the whole congregation would also have to admit that the bible is wrong.

And do not give me that oh you're a bitter man, which religion did you wrong, bs.

You know it's all a lie, you're just pretending that you believe such nonsense.

That's why they call it a belief, notice they do not call it a knowing of fact.

Whom ever shall believe this and that, notice it does not say whom ever knows for a fact, without a doubt. That's why you need faith, a hope that it's true, never a "knowing for fact". No faith needed.

I have no faith, because I do not need it. Faith is needed to believe, I do not believe.

There's nothing to believe.

I believe the Earth is flat, I also believe in a talking snake and that the red sea was parted, I believe in a talking donkey and unicorns.

But I know none of them ever existed and are fables.

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Blade-Runner: "...The Christian god used to be responsible for all natural occurrences, and yet, not science has shown the reason we have natural weather patterns, or environmental changes...."

Meant to say "now science".

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Zach, I for one was a sold-out, tract-buying/distributing, evangelizing, tongue-talking, prayer-vigiling, studying-to-show-myself-approved, Bible-memorizing, Christian-website-building, lay-missionary-in-Japan, Christian... for 30 years.

I tested my "beliefs" and found them to be in error. I left those beliefs. Many Christians seem to think that you either have one kind of religious belief or another. I was one of those who thought that you either believed in Christianity, or you beleived in another religion, or you believed in secular humanism, but no matter what, you believed in something. Everyone believes in something.

I had that opinion about what everyone else because that is what is unceasingly taught from the pulpit.

I accepted Christianity lock, stock and barrel, and three decades later I left it. I tested, scrutinized, and agonized over my decision to leave. I didn't do it in a day. It took three years. And it took another five or so until I was comfortable with admitting there is much about the world I don't know.

Do I believe there are good flying spirit beings looking down and helping mankind while waging battle with evil flying spirit beings (war in the heavenlies stuff)? I highly doubt it. If you want to call my doubt and skepticism about Christianity a belief, I think that is a poor use of the word, but I no longer believe in the myths of Christianity. It is my studied opinion, and my personal experience, that Christianity is a false cult, just like every other religious cult on the planet. It's bizarre. It's fantastic. It's made of nothing but stories in a moldering book.

All you Greenwood Community Church people are zealous for your religion, but you are painfully ignorant about it. While you are trying to wedge your way in with "Shouldn't ex-Christians test their beliefs?" I challenge you to list the books against Christianity that you have read. My guess would be you've read NO books written by non-Christians that challenge your beliefs. I, however, have read a library full of Christian apologetics by Christian authors and a mere handful of non-Christian books in comparison.

Reason and rationality don't need nearly the mental buttressing as does maintaining blind faith in magical, invisible entities.

The point I'm trying to make is that ex-Christians were once Christians -- Christians who examined and tested their beliefs and left those beliefs, just like a JW, or a Mormon, or an apostate Muslim...

I have a lack of belief in mystical, supernatural beings that are interfering in life on this planet. I also don't think aliens from another planet are messing with us. If you were to come here and insist that aliens are landing in the middle of Lake Erie, I'd be just as caustic and aggressive with you on that ridiculous modern fable as I am with your ancient fable of a flying un-dead god-man.

If you want to make fantastic claims, you better be prepared to offer some fairly convincing evidence. It makes no difference what my beliefs or opinions are -- you hold the burden of proof.

And the proof is, your youth pastor, filled with the holy ghost, the power of your GOD, being sanctified by the word and the spirit, with special gifts handed out by the Almighty, couldn't resist sticking it in kid half his age. Is your GOD so weak? Yes, your god is weak, because he doesn't exist.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Stormblade, good attempt with the verses, but my question was for you show me from the Bible that Christianity is a relationship and not a religion. You haven’t supported your statement with those verses.

The writer of James says this:
1:26-27 (King James Version)
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Christianity most certainly is a religion. Here is the definition of religion:
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

Most assuredly, Christianity is a religion. To say otherwise is silly.
And, Stormblade, your verses on “testing your faith” do not in any way support your statement that life is nothing but a test to see if we will become Christians or not, that is, whether we will choose God or not.

As I said, good try, but as you can see, there are no verses that teach that the purpose of life is a spiritual test and that Christianity is not a religion but a relationship. Those are two modern made-up doctrines. In fact, if you read anything written by Christians prior to this century, you’ll be very hard pressed to find one sermon or book that teaches these two doctrines. That’s because they are modern inventions of modern Charismaticism and Evangelicalism.

.:webmaster:. · 3 years ago

Zach: I'm not sure you understand what I was trying to say.

I understood. You were trying to raise belief in a magical religion to the same position as honest skepticism. Belief and disbelief in the supernatural are not the Ying and Yang of reality, they are two sides of the same coin. Skepticism is rooted in reality and evidence. Religious belief is rooted in supernatural magic and no evidence.


Zach: All I was trying to say is that all beliefs should not go unquestioned.

Then I strongly suggest you question your beliefs. Check out the bookstore on this site. Have you read a single title listed in that store? There’s a lot there to choose from.

If my "God stories" have absolutely no validity in your mind, then where do you get your basis for right and wrong?

That’s easy. We are social animals that since we stood upright have relied on each other for survival against the elements and competing tribes. Murder, theft, adultery, etc., these are all things that would create quite a bit a problems in a tribe, don’t you think? Besides, even a dog will get upset if another dog tries to steal his food. They too are social animals. Morality is a human construct, and a good one, but there is nothing supernatural about it. If it was a supernatural thing, we wouldn’t need the mountains of laws that presently exist on the books to keep society running as smoothly as possible. Obviously the Ten Commandments weren’t adequate for all society in all times. Besides, do you go out to eat after Church? If you do, you’re not keeping the Sabbath holy, and by having someone wait on you, you are contributing to the breaking of that commandment by the restaurant employee. If the Ten Commandments are the source of morality, then you better stop breaking the Sabbath.

There is wisdom in the Bible as there is wisdom in the writings of Confucius, Buddha, Homer and Kahil Gibran, and Plato. Philosophical wisdoms are human constructs based on real observation and application. There is nothing supernatural about it, Tat is the point. Citing from the Bible as if it were supernatural authority, as if it contains the transferred thoughts of a GOD, a GOD who is sitting on a throne on top of the firmament looking down on his playthings, is, frankly, infantile.


Zach: I am assuming that as a human being, you know what is considered good and what is considered bad. Did you come up with the criteria?

Human society has determined good and bad over a long course of evolution and development. Not so long ago, torturing heretical believers was considered good. Very recently slavery was considered good. In the Bible both cruel punishments and slavery are considered good. Today, at least in the US, torturing people with odd religious beliefs and possessing other humans as slaves is considered not just bad, but horrific. Again, in the Bible, slavery and torture were considered good, even humane, practices.

Good and bad are human constructs. Period. I don’t decide what is good and bad. Society does. Is exceeding the speed limit good or bad? Well, if you do it, and get caught, you’ll get a ticket, or lose your license to drive, or maybe, depending on the severity of the offense, you’ll go to jail. Hmm. Speeding is bad. Who decided that speeding is bad? People did. All human morality is like that.

Zach: I personally do not believe in the Greek gods or in Muhammad

Zach, when you do some introspection and figure out WHY you don’t believe in those things, then you’ll understand why others don’t believe in your religion.

"Rejection of belief is not belief. Rejection of belief is skepticism."

Zach: Ok, so are you telling me that you believe in nothing?

No, I reject Christianity. That’s what I’m saying.

Zach: The life that you claim is one of emptyness [sic] and one that I would take a life of Christianity over any day.

No, my life is extremely full and I’m having a blast. The life I have is simply free of slavery to a religion. It’s pretty good, actually. I’m having the best part of life right now. Thanks for the concern, though.

Zach: several of the things you mentioned are not correctly taken from the Bible. However, I challenge you to disprove all of those occurrences, so there is no doubt.

Really, which things did I incorrectly take from the Bible? Hmm?

You told me to disprove that an ax head floated, that a fiery chariot took a Elijah straight to heaven without dying, that snakes didn’t have legs, ever, that bushes don’t talk, that angels didn’t impregnate women, etc., etc., etc.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!

Thanks. That’s hilarious. I needed a good laugh. Again, great joke.

Zach: I believe that I follow an all-powerful God. One that can make all those things happen.

Oh, sorry, you weren’t kidding. Well, you can certainly believe this stuff if you want. But you reject the magical stories from other religions without a thought, yet you embrace these equally magical stories as fact. I wonder if you even realize inconsistent you are in this? Regardless, the myths of every culture have as much evidence of being true as your myths. Perhaps you should seriously consider trying to disprove them before you go any further.

Zach: Things that go unexplained. I choose to attribute those things to God. What do you chose to attribute them to? Or do you choose to ignore them?

You’ll have to be more specific. Please list a few of the unexplained things you are thinking of.


Zach: I will not try and tell you how to run this website … And as a place for ex-Christians, shouldn't you be trying to pull the so-called "veil" from over my eyes.

Zach, which is it? Are you going to not try and tell me how to run this site, or are you going to try and tell me how to run this website?

Zach: I am here to listen to what you have to say, as much as I hope you respect me and listen to what I have to say.

Really? Have you read any of the other articles on this site? Have you read any of the testimonials? Have you read anything besides the exchange you’re having right here on this one page? If you were here to listen, you’d be reading. That’s the equivalent of listening — reading. You are here to argue and convince. There’s a big difference.

Zach: Technically, the Bible never states that Christianity is a religion.

Please refer to the answer given to Stormblade. Christianity is a religion, complete with a GOD, a supposedly metaphysical book, rituals, regular meetings, rules, beliefs, doctrines, and all the trappings that go with religions, except perhaps the vestal virgins.

Blade-Runner · 3 years ago

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "Blade-Runner, as for the children thing you need to read the verses around the verse you select to prove a point."

Oh, read in context of the picture being presented, and... that means reading the "whole" bible, right?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM:
"Jesus wasn't talking about knowledge he was talking about humbleness..."

"Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:4 Therefore anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdonm of Heavan."

It doesn't say stupid, or without knowledge, or lack of knowledge but instead it says humble. For the other verses it's the same thing. It's not saying be without knowledge and enter, it's saying be humble like a child."

Blade-Runner: So, "all" childish things to include humbleness should be kept with humility, so that one can enter into the gates of heaven...

1 Corinthians 13:11 - "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Uh, pardon, I don't see humbleness or meekness as one of the "top" three on the list of the greatest. So, when I read, put away childish things, that means humbleness and meekness are of those things that one should mature from - a direct opposite of what is proposed in Matthew.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Since we are on knowledge, can you help me with these two verses, and give me the "real" contextual meaning, thanks.

Genesis 1:29 - "Behold, I have given your every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree ... to you it shall be for meat."

Genesis 2:17 - "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it."

Seems to be an opposite.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Blade-Runner: "God showed up, after they had taken a bite from the fruit, not before."

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "No, read the bible if you want to try and prove a point about the bible. Don't just read selected verses."

Genesis 2:15-17 "The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and care for it. But the Lord God gave him this warning:'You may freely eat any fruit into the garden except fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die."

This was before the apple and it clearly states that God commanded Adam. How could He command him unless He had direct contact with Adam. Clearly God was with them."

Blade-Runner: Okay, in my analogy, I clearly showed that the parent gave up the special bottle of milk. And, yes, at that time there was contact. Then, I clearly stated the parent/god in this case pulled away to see how the test would go. Clearly, your god didn't oversee Adam nor Eve the day Eve took the bite of the apple. Any parent who would know the eternal consequences of their creation/infant/being would likely make sure their child was "cared for". Where was your "god", when all of humanity was about to be "damned" to "hell" for all eternity, per the Christian tradition. That, unwatching parent in society would be sent to jail for child abuse - but your "god" somehow escapes without a scratch - I find that alarming.

And, now that you have pulled up Genesis, may I provide you with an opposite.

Genesis 2:15-17 - "The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and care for it. But the Lord God gave him this warning:'You may freely eat any fruit into the garden except fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die."

So, in theory Adam dies, if he eats of the fruit - I mean, if he doesn't, then god is a liar, a manipulator per se, and those would be the characteristics of something a little on the "shady" side... right.

Adam eats from the tree, yet lives another 930 years.

Genesis 3:6 - "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food ... she took of the fruit therof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Genesis 5:5 - "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

Okay, first of all, in Chapter Three, Adam ate the Fruit, and then we go on for a long time, until Chapter "5", where god finally says, he dies at the age of 930. He obviously, wasn't killed immediately after he ate, or Genesis 3:7, would state, "and they died". That didn't happen; Adam lived a long nice life.

This is another "opposite".

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Blade-Runner: "By the way, Eve is evil/yin and Adam is good/yang, just another opposite"

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "No, Adam also took a bite out of the apple and was as just as guilty."

Evil/Eve, seduced Good/Adam, in this analogy, there anonymous. And, your god placed "evil", in the garden, you know - the serpent. He did this on purpose, knowing the result.

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "Genesis 3:6 "The woman was convinced. The fruit lookes so fresh and delicious, and it would make her so wise! So she ate some of the fruit. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her. Then he ate it, too."

It's clear here that there is no yin/yang of good and evil between Adam and Eve. They both took a bite of the apple."

God was both good & evil, per your bible, and Isaiah. Your god sent evil into the garden. Your god created Adam who was in his image, in theory - good. Then Eve was created, to tempt Adam. The serpent tempted Eve, and Eve tempted Adam.

In this biblical scenario, there is the opposites of your god's good and evil, the good of Adam being corrupted by Evil/Eve, and the good of Eve being corrupted by Evil/serpent. This was all about opposites. At the point that Adam had not partaken of the fruit, he was still uncorrupted, thus Evil/Eve and Good/Adam still existed in the garden.

Obviously, humanity can be seduced, because humanity comes from a god who possesses both, good and evil traits. You do believe that humanity was built in "god's" image - right. Therefore, mankind is not only exactly as your god planned them to be, the bible suggest that mankind is an "image" of god - per the quote of Isaiah. We have the ability to be both good & evil.

Therefore, god created humanity "exactly" as he planned. Now, again, back in the Old Testament, it was okay to be a little "evil", I mean, god was, why not his creation that was in his image. It was okay, because humanity naturally represented god, and why would god punish mankind for all eternity for being like them? God wouldn't, hence, there is no "hell" in the Old Testament.

Yes, yes, yes, Hell finally came around in the New Testament. Just another "opposite", in the Old Testament, no hell, in the New Testament hell. Point is, that was not the original god's plan in the Old Testament, and the god of the Old Testament, was much different than the god of the New Testament.

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "God didn't leave us to go to hell, if he did why would there be an old testament. There would be no reason for one, all that would be needed is the new testament but if you look at a bible you'll notice there's an old and a new testament."

:-) Yes, after a few years of University studies, I do in fact realize there is both the Old and New Covenant. In the Old Testament, there was no "hell", however, only the Jewish would reign and benefit in the New Kingdom. The "gentiles" would not be part of the New Kingdom, actually, in the Old Testament, all "gentiles" would become Jewish when the "true" Messiah arrived and brought in their New Kingdom, per the Old Testament Prophesies.

The Old Testament prophesy, was "never" fulfilled, Jesus failed just about "every" test there was, the greatest being... the Jews are "NOT" living in their New Kingdom, yet Jesus was supposed to bring about that prophesy. I would not call Hitler their travel and vacation agent in their paradise in the past years.

The "only" reason there is a "new testament" is because Constantine I, ordered the Roman Clergy to collect articles and books that were being circulated at the time, and canonize them. They did so, by vote, yes... they voted on which books they would put into the New Testament, and they voted on whether or not Jesus was the "true" Jewish Messiah. Notice, the Jews did not vote... The Roman Catholic Church voted. Hell, was brought into the picture, because of that vote on the books, and Jesus was voted as the savior for anyone who followed the state religion - else, they were to be executed.

Per the Old Testament, god held dominion of "all”… that - included "all"... In the New Testament, god held dominion over heaven, and sub-contracted hell out to Satan - so he could be landlord.

So, you are partially right... The god of the Old Testament, the Jewish god, didn't leave us to go to hell... Hell didn't exist, and god held dominion over "all". It's the god of the New Testament that gets credit for creating "hell" - the god of Christ.

The only reason you have an old testament, is because the Jews who knew their commandments and their covenant and promise to their god, believed they would be punished if they didn't follow their covenant given to them by their "god" (their belief). Thus, the Roman Emperor who ordered the creation of the New Testament, ensured the Old Testament would remain in order to bring about a buy-in from the Jews, and to convince them that the "saved" was not only going to be them, but... "all" humanity could be saved from hell.

Uh, hate to reiterate here... but, the Jews didn't have a "hell", what were they going to be saved from? Nothing.

Hence, why the Jews were persecuted, they didn't buy Jesus as the Messiah, and they didn't buy Jesus bringing in "hell", and they didn't buy this god was theirs, because their god didn't have a need to "change his mind" - their god was "omniscient".

In short, the Jews believed that their god didn't make mistakes, and sending Jesus was like saying... hey folks, kinda' made a boo boo, I'm going to send my son, to be tortured because I was incompetent, and then he's going to come back here... and then we'll try it all over again... Because, you are no longer the truly "favored", I screwed up, I know, I know, I am omniscient, but I didn't realize that you were going to tick me off so bad, that I would shun you and start a sequel to your religion - The New Jews (Part II).

Blade-Runner: "…because he obviously didn't believe the god of the Old Testament was either "capable" or "willing"."

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "Show me where it's obvious that Jesus didn't believe God was capable."

That was a choice for you to make. Let me make it easier. Jesus was tortured, and murdered "deliberately", by his god father. Again, god gets all the credit, god is all, and all is god, god is omniscient, per your bible.

So, Jesus as he finds himself stuck to a piece of wood, with iron spikes, has to think about why he was murdered by his father... here are the options, and you can add a few if you like.

1) God just couldn't absolve humanity from sin, he wasn't capable.
2) God just couldn't absolve humanity from sin, he didn't care.
3) God just couldn't absolve humanity from sin, he enjoyed watching his son get tortured.

Hey, why don't you throw in your choices, why the god who created evil, and was evil himself, sent his son to earth to be brutally tortured and murdered. Now, this god, you realize can change anything, and he "knew" before Jesus was tortured, he would be tortured, yet, he had the power to absolve mankind.

Now, some other religions get cute, later on and attempt to create their own "gap" fillers with their own documentation... The War of the Heavens was one such additional doctrine that portrayed a "reason" why Jesus was come to pay the price...

Read: "Milton's Paradise Lost"

It goes something like; Jesus was a real son of God in heaven. Jesus and Lucifer got into a favor contest in heaven (pride), Lucifer had plans on how to create humanity, yet, god favored Jesus. Satan rebelled, and was cast out, with 1/3 of the angels in heaven. Jesus, thus, got the job as chief architect for creating humanity. He created, and screwed it up, thus, God sent him to earth, to be tortured for his boo boo.

Now, we are talking about heaven, sinless, and perfect. A place where Satan began his career in evil, and a place where a god allowed evil to exist. There also existed pride in heaven, and contempt. Jesus was also able to "screw up", humanity, yet he was perfect, and his father allowed him to screw up, because god wasn't perfect.

If you accept god as not-perfect, everything is possible, all of these events. If you accept your god as perfect, then... he deliberately tortured his own son, by standing by and "omnisciently" allowing it to happen. Once again, if your god, is the "god of all", your god is "responsible" for all. What your god uses as a tutorial to teach humanity, and his own son, is considered abusive, abhorrent, and sheer evil.

Evil, is a tool your god wields quite well.

Psalm 137:9 - "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Care to explain.

Psalm 139:22 - "I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies."

Perfect "hatred". Uh, that would be a "hatred" fit for a perfect "god".

See the opposite, a loving god, with perfect hatred, hmmmmm.

And, while I'm on the subject, and you really haven't answered the questions posed to this point... I'll give you the verses that show that your "god", did in fact create hell and predestination; he knows all, and those who will abide in hell - ready.

Proverbs 16:4 - "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

He "made" the wicked, for the day of evil/hell. Hope that helps clear it up, your "god", is the creator of "evil" - for his "pleasure".

John 12:40 - "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

Thus, your god, deliberately placed humanity into a position of blindness. Uh, there goes Jesus being blamed in Milton's Paradise Lost. Your "god", is the one to blame for hardening, and Jesus is thus nothing but a scapegoat for god.

Romans 9:18 - "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

Thus, god hardeneth those whom he will and did.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 - "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."

God gets busy, even after he damns people to hell, and knows who is damned, he sets about the task of damning even more people.

Blade-Runner: "I'd say you should pray to your god on this, but he doesn't respect you enough to answer your prayers."

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "The verses you used came from an old english bible. Language back then was much differeent than language today. Words that meant certain things then mean different things now.

If you read a modern version or a version translated from greek you'll find that it's not saying that God doesn't respect people but instead that God doesn't show favoritism."

Uh, so the bible isn't perfect because it's been mistranslated? Okay.

Blade-Runner: "Then God sent an evil spirit"

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "Sent being a key word in all these verses as well as from. God has every right to hand us over to the devil and destroy us all."

So, you have every right to have a child, knowing you are going to rip its guts out, because you are the creator... Uh, you're a sick... Well, you fill in the blank.

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "But he chose not to because he loves us. What God did wasn't evil, it doesn't say that the God was in any way evil."

Are you delusional, all of the verses that I have posted, say your god is evil. I have posted numerous acts that are despicable that only an "evil" god would even consider doing... Your god killed every living animal on the earth, basically torture, because he wanted to "cleanse" the earth of humanity... God is all powerful, yet, he chose this method of torture, to get the job done - great.

And, per your bible, and the verses I posted, he knows and has "deliberately" engaged in damning people. Read your bible.

Blade-Runner: "Jesus came to abolish the law and commandments given by the Jewish God El."

You already disproved yourself on this one. You also said Paul detested the laws. Show me where.

I am correct on both accounts. Jesus showed up, to save "all" of humanity, per the Christian tradition. That means, he had to close out the Old Testament prophesy, and I asked you if you wanted me to show you where he failed in that respect. Nonetheless, Jesus by his very presence can to "abolish", by "closing out" the Old Testament by fulfillment of the Old Testament Prophesy. Are you going to deny that you don't believe in the crucifixion?

As well, Paul taught against the laws of the Jews. He is attributed with posting fourteen epistles, which lay the foundation for "Christianity"... Note... "Christianity"... Not the Judaism that he was preaching "against". Remember, the Jews didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah, because Jesus failed all of the prophesies they were given by their god/authors.

Regarding Paul, who preached against, the Laws of the Old Covenant by becoming the "author" for fourteen epistles of the New Testament, read;

In the order they appear in the New Testament, the Pauline epistles are:

-Romans
-First Corinthians
-Second Corinthians
-Galatians
-Ephesians (*)
-Philippians
-Colossians (*)
-First Thessalonians
-Second Thessalonians (*)
-First Timothy (*)
-Second Timothy (*)
-Titus (*)
-Philemon
-Hebrews (*)-or- (Anonymous)

Paul, had much to say about the Old Testament, what it was missing, and what needed to "change". Paul is typically given the role as the "first" Christian - thus removing Judaism as the dominant belief system.

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "Please do show me where Jesus didn't fulfill."

Thought you would never ask :-)... I don't want to overkill this post, so I will bring up four first, and then... if you want... then I can continue to add. By the way... if "one" of these prophesies never came to pass... then Jesus was not the Messiah. And, by the way, while we are at bible study... can you provide the verse where "Jesus" himself says he's the "Messiah", come to bring in the Jewish New Kingdom... I can assure you, your inability to find such a verse, isn't the result of a "translation" error... Let's continue though...

Jewish Messiah, Test One:
Ezekiel 37:26-28: Build the Third Temple

26: Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of THEM for evermore.
27: My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28: And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.

Israel, Sanctuary/Temple, Forevermore... Is there some Hidden temple sitting around we just haven't heard about that the Jews are secretly hording, oh, that can't be, because GOD himself said that the heathen would know... The heathen is "you", and "I", and all non-Jews, are "you" aware of the exact location of a third temple? No, I thought not. But, the Second Temple Fell ~70CE, at the hands of the Roman Army... Where is this "third temple"... if no temple, then, Jesus was not the Messiah...

Jewish Messiah, Test Two:
Isaiah 43:5-6: Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel

5: Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6: I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

The Jewry was spread out all over the place, an historical fact... especially during the crusades... Israel was supposed to be brought back together... That hasn't happened... Not in the time that Jesus was reported to be a Prophet by Christian Authority... And, the Jews are not "together" even to this day.

Jewish Messiah, Test Three:
Isaiah 2:4: Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore."

4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Do you know of a time, where there hasn't been war, I mean, since the beginning of written history... Or, since Jesus was said to have lived?

Jewish Messiah, Test Four:
Zechariah 14:9: Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel - uniting the entire human race as one: "God will be King over all the world--on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One"

9: And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10: All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11: And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12: And this shall be the plague wherewith The Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

18: And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19: This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20: In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, holiness unto the Lord; and the pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.

21: Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of Hosts.

Do you know a time in human history where everyone and Every Nation was worshipping the Exact same God, and had Equal knowledge... Furthermore, do you know of a time, when the Heathen and Canaanites were "struck down" with a curse that caused the Indiana Jonesesque scene where the Heathen or Any Other Nation not Worshipping under the Jewish God of Israel, had their Eyes, Flesh, and Tongue burst into Fire... Did we miss something when Jesus came down... or perhaps, Jesus wan not the Jewish Messiah...

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "No where did I state that God didn't know that Eve would sin."

Okay, then your god is responsible for everything we do. We are doing exactly everything as god has planned - that includes going to hell - predestined. Because we have no idea of our next choice in life, doesn't mean he didn't create us knowing our choice. Thus, his "free will" dominates us, and he has created us with his dominant "free will". We can be surprised all we want at our decisions, and possibilities, yet, we are "destined" to either heaven or hell, we are destined to make certain choices, like me being here and you being there... we are exactly as god planned and created us to be. Why would it be different, your god, is a "god". Thus, there is no accepting and not accepting your god, he has created us to either not accept or to accept him.

Blade-runner: "your god created Eve without having a plan - and then your god is irresponsible."

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "God did have a plan, that plan was Jesus Christ."

Actually, per the previous statement, Jesus wasn't the answer. Again, show me where Jesus himself says he is the Jewish Messiah, that is required to "close out" the Old Testament prophesy. Good luck... ever wonder why there are "still" Jews in the world, and they only follow the Old Testament?

Anonymous 12/23/2006 3:51 PM: "How many times do we need to go over this? God knew it would happen that doesn't mean he planned it to happen. If I know something is going to happen that doesn't mean I plan for that something to happen."

Planned, or knew, your god is responsible as the creator for it "all". If you throw a ball, do you blame the ball for flying through the air? If you train a pet to bite, do you blame the pet, or the owner who "planned" to "create" a biting dog?

God "planned" our creation, and thus, "knew" the outcomes for all of our decisions, because the bible says he's omniscient... or, your god "didn't" plan our creation, and thus we are randomly living life, and he has no idea of the outcome.

Let's put it another way. If you plan on creating a baseball bat to play baseball, and then you create a baseball bat to hit a ball, and then you hit a baseball with the bat; did you not "plan", "create", and foresee everything that you envisioned for your baseball bat? Yes, you can't be that blind.

Therefore, all I am suggesting, is that your "god", created us by planning, he created us for a particular purpose, and we are engaged in that process of his "making"... we are exactly as he created us to be. How is someone able to make a baseball bat, and claim to plan, create, and use... and you can't see how your very own "god", can do it... Simply amazing...

boomSLANG · 3 years ago

Zach: I'm not exactly sure if I understand you correctly, but it sounds like you are saying that you neither believe or disbelief that Jesus was a "supernatural" being. If I am correct in my assumption, it seems almost though you are contradicting all of your previous statements.

However, you are not correct in your "assumption". And what makes discussions like these aggrevating, is that you appear to be willfully "misunderstanding".

Okay, to clarify for you, what I'm saying is that, firstly, the lack of belief in something is not a "belief". I say this in reference to your original statement that ex-Christians should "test their beliefs". If I were to ask you, Zach... "Hey Zach, do you believe in zombies?" Surely, you wouldn't answer me with "Why yes, boomSLANG...I do believe zombies don't exist." Uuh, no... you would probably just say "No, I don't believe in zombies, boomSLANG".

(yet interstingly, if one believes the bible as "Truth", then one must believe in zombies...i.e.."living" dead people).

Secondly, about "neutrality". Zach, it cannot be known with absolute certainty that a "God" doesn't exist somewhere in the stretches of the unknown universe---but wait, don't ejaculate quite yet.....no, because likewise, at the present time, it cannot be known with absolute certainty that a race of purple hamsters don't live deep in the center of Uranus, and from there, they control the Universe.

The point being---I lack absolute knowledge on the non-existance of "deities", just like you lack absolute knowledge that "deities" exist. And UNTIL it can be known, absolutely, I merely say I hold a position of "neutrality", as that is the most honest position to take. A position of "Faith" is to "hope" something true, in lack of knowledge. So, that's not so "honest". To make it more clear, Zach, and other defenders of the "faith"---no one is saying that "God" is disproven, only that "God" is UNproven. Please learn the difference. Thanks.

I simply meant that I feel that everyone, Christian or not, should not be allowed to live their lives without questioning their own beliefs.

I just went over how non-belief isn't a "belief", above.......but, um, "should not be allowed" to live our lives? Interesting, but not too shocking choice of words, coming from the dictatorial "one-size-fits-all" Christian mindset. In other words, we should be forced to examine the Christian worldview until we see it as "Truth"...or else, not be allowed to live our lives. Aww, that's adORable.

I feel Christians should not just accept all of the ideas of the Bible like they are being spoonfed. I also believe that non-Christians are making a mistake if they blindly reject Christ without clearly thinking and digging through the issues. You may disagree with me there.

Making crass assumptions, are we? Are you, Zach, "blindly rejecting" Allah, because you don't hold a belief in such a being? How about Spiderman? How do you "know" for certain that Spiderman isn't turning a bad guy into a cocoon right this second? I mean, you're not "blindly rejecting" Spiderman, are you? Did you thoroughly "dig through" all the "issues"?.....every last comic book? Tisk, tisk.

Christianity is not a religion of guilt or fear, so I am sorry that it failed you so badly.

Zach, I'm not usually even this diplomatic, so don't patronize me, or we won't get along, 'm kay??? Thanks. And you're NOT "sorry" that your religion "failed" me, no, you're sorry that there exists people, a lot of people, who don't want to BE members of your cult, and who reject it's teachings---and since we know more now than we did 2000 years ago---this leans closer to the likelyhood that your "belief" is invalid, thereby, lessening your chances of immortality. THAT is what it's all about, Zach..."going to heaven"---that's the one and only reason you can reconcile such rubbish.....your "reward".

What Christ teaches is love and acceptance, and not condemnation or rejection.

Yes, "love and acceptance", but if it's not reciprocated?... you get incinerated in the bowels of "hell". Yessss Sirrrr--nothing says "I love you" like the smell of 8 trillion "souls" on the grill. Zach?... your belief is absurdly barbaric, and it is the antithesis of "love". I hope that you wake up someday.

I just believe that God has a place in every humans heart (for lack of a better word), and unless that person allows God in, there will always be that gap.

I agree, the word "heart" is a bit lacking, because we know that the human heart is mostly H2O and muscle. Look, we cannot have a serious discussion about "God" if you insist on speaking metaphorically. So then, it begs the question---where IS "God", Zach?..other than "inside" your head? There's a Nobel Prize waiting for you, or any of your church-mates, for providing evidence that "God" exists anywhere outside your "brains". Anxiously waiting.

boomSLANG.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

On behalf of the church I apologize to you all who have been wronged by Christians

Anonymous · 2 years ago

If leaving Christianity is so freeing, why are you all so angry?

.:webmaster:. · 2 years ago

On behalf of the church?

Are you the designated spokesman for all of Christendom? I would guess the answer to that is no.

To the anonymous who thinks that people who think Christianity is bunk and who are sick and tired of hearing preaching are angry -- stuff it.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

I appriciate your humor, honestly... that was funny

Anonymous · 2 years ago

And to answer your question, the Church gave me the authority to "be its spokesman"... who are you to say that it didn't ?

And are you the designated spokesperson for all sarcastic athiests? Because if so I would like to be friends. No repenting or conversion... promise

.:webmaster:. · 2 years ago

Anony said: And to answer your question, the Church gave me the authority to "be its spokesman"... who are you to say that it didn't?

Wow, that's impressive. I wonder if the Pope is aware of this. And the leaders of all the thousands of competing Protestant, Orthodox, Baptist, Charismatic and Pentecostal I hope denominations agreed on this decision too? This is history! I feel so honored to make your cyber-acquaintance!

Anony: And are you the designated spokesperson for all sarcastic athiests?

No, I've never pretended to be. I'm the designated spokesperson for myself. Everyone else that posts here speaks for only themselves. There is considerable agreement between many of us on some things and marked disagreement on others. The one unifying idea underlying the faithful participants on this site is that Christianity is bunk.

I hope that answers your inquiries and thank you for writing in.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

so webmaster, I checked out you profile, I really think we can be friends, theological junk aside, I was impressed with your daughter's CD, she seems to be quite the piano player... congratulations

.:webmaster:. · 2 years ago

Anony,

My daughter is the singer, not the pianist.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Pardon my mistake, I went back and am listening to her CD right now, beautiful voice... wow,and a great range on Ava Maria. Admittedly I had not listened too far in to any of the songs on my first visit. If I had heard the singing I would not have made the mistake, my apologies. You are a piano player though, do you mostly do jazz?

.:webmaster:. · 2 years ago

I am not a piano player.

However, what has any of this to do with a the story posted here about a pastor boffing a teen girl in his congregation?

Blade-Runner · 2 years ago

Well, another obfuscation operation. Posts create a separation from the last cogent statements from boomSLANG and Blade-Runner...

There has been no response to either post, so... separate and disengage is the tactic of those making off topic posts... cute.

Blade-Runner · 2 years ago

As well, the WM's post did not receive a reply as well. Again, makes one wonder about the sincerity of making small talk, totally off topic - continuously.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

I apologize for not responding as quickly as you would have hoped blade runner, but I have been busy, you know life and stuff... Once again, sorry for my off topic posts, but I would also like to point out that about 90% of the posts on this fourm are off topic, everything from Jesus (not mentioned in the article) to serial killers... quite an impressive range - and all not mentioned in the article (correct me if I am wrong)
And to Bladerunner, this "small talk" is actually me trying to get to know webmaster apart from his cynical and admittedly often hilarious comments. Question my sincerity or whatever, but I want to know what is behind his thoughts, and I beg your pardon if this is the only channel of communication that I have right now, so as much as I appriciate you butting in, I would prefer not to start a fruitless and sophmoric argument with you.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

And so to webmaster, If you are interested in talking with me, and please trust me when I say that I do not wish to argue with you, only to listen, then I would appriciate a reply, and perhaps we can converse outside of this public fourm

Anonymous · 2 years ago

This goes out to all you hypocritical ass holes who are bashing Don. He is a sinner. And so am I , and so are all of you. So just drop all the "I will use this pastor's mistake to disprove christianity" crap.

boomSLANG · 2 years ago

Angry Anony said: This goes out to all you hypocritical ass holes who are bashing Don.

Um, we aren't the one's claiming we have an invisible Holy man-spirit living in our hearts---one who is "guiding us". So really, you need to revisit your definition of "hypocrite", Sparky.

Anon continued: He is a sinner. And so am I , and so are all of you

There's no such thing as a "sin". If you are talking about what is ethical, based on what society as a whole dictates....this, along with the "Golden Rule"..i.e.. the "humanity rule"..then that's different. There is no "sin", however.

If you disagree, Anony... then is it ALWAYS a "sin" to lie? Is abortion a "sin"?(Hint: Use your brain before you fly-off at the mouth)

Anony bellowed: So just drop all the "I will use this pastor's mistake to disprove christianity" crap.

Christians do a fine job of disproving Christianity themselves. Right, "ass hole"?

Anonymous · 2 years ago

It is pathetic to see people like you anti-religious folk use poor excuses like these to justify that EVERY Christian is that way. It is so easy for YOU to attack a person who either a.) may not even be a Christian or b.) a person who is a Christian who unfortunately went this direction. I'm sorry, but guess what...there are plenty of you non-Christian sick pervs too! Maybe even some of you writing right now that would just LOVE to justify your sins (and yes SIN does exist and YES if you don't repent, you are destined for hell) so you can make an excuse to keep on sinning! Clarification HEAR TO BOTH THE CHRISTIAN AND NON-CHRISTIAN. SIN EXISTS AND GOD IS THE JUDGE. Romans 3 says that ALL people don't seek God from their own heart without God being able to call us. So here is the fact - this man (whether a Christian or a fake) must repent from his sin just like you non-Christians ought to repent from yours. True, there are consequences in this world for sin and I'm sure the pastor is paying his dues for it, but if this pastor and the 16 yo girl are TRULY repentive and are not putting on a show of hypocrisy...if in their heart of hearts they want to be restored to God - GOD WILL FORGIVE THEM BOTH and THEY WILL BE IN HEAVEN. On the contrary, YOU who use excuses to attack other sinners (Christian or non-Christian) and use these excuses to pretend there is no God, sin, heaven, hell, or Satan are on for a BIG surprise on judgement day. Because instead of seeking God and His ways and SEEKING JESUS' WAYS with all your heart, you rather mock God and pretend there is no consequences. The sad thing for you is that now YOU guys are the Pharisees of modern society and will PAY FOR EACH COMMENT before and after that you make that offends God and His Son unless you get on your knees, ask forgiveness for your sins - remember, I didn't say that this man is not guilty - I said that he has a better chance of going to heaven because chances are, if he is a Christian and has repented or if he is a man who wasn't a real Christian and then changes his life from this experience, he will be enjoying eternal life while you blasphemers will be burning in hell for eternity and beyond (UNLESS YOU REPENT - then you will also have eternal life also). Yes there is hope if your heart is sincere to change as much as if this pastor repents and is willing to change, but the truth is that whether you attack the pastor, the 16yo, all Christians, any human being, any religious creed that exists, or any one else - IT WILL NOT CHANGE YOUR DESTINY IN HELL - the only thing that will change YOUR DESTINY - is putting to death your old ways, asking Jesus to be ruler of your life each new day, and submitting your life to Him... Lord willing, I hope there is hope for you because I would prefer none of you suffer this...but fact is fact...although God is a loving God, He is also a Just God and HE WILL NOT HESITATE TO GIVE THE ETERNAL DEATH SENTANCE...and once we're dead, remember, there is no going back on our earthly choices...TWO DESTINATIONS...TWO CHOICES...CHANGE WHILE IT IS STILL POSSIBLE... Hoping to see you in the heavens...I know I will be there...how about you?

Astreja · 2 years ago

Anonymous, April 28: It is pathetic to see people like you anti-religious folk use poor excuses like these to justify that EVERY Christian is that way.

It's even more pathetic to see Christians making excuses for their pretend god not protecting the girl from the predatory pastor.

...but if this pastor and the 16 yo girl are TRULY repentive...

WTF?? Are you seriously claiming that the girl, the victim in all this, has to repent? That's a sick point of view if ever I heard one.

Hoping to see you in the heavens...I know I will be there...how about you?

No, thank you. I am confident that I would much prefer the grave to the company of the sadistic and thoroughly evil Biblical god. A being that would create a place such as "hell" is unworthy of worship.

shannerwren · 2 years ago

Anon, Good luck with the heaven thing – maybe Jeffrey Dahmer could be your sponsor. He can show you around heaven and take you to the different hot spots especially the window to hell where you can look down and watch Gandhi being tortured. Sweet!

Chris · 2 years ago

Anonymous,

I've been fighting the urge to respond to your stupidity, but ultimately decided that there are a couple ignorant statements that need to be pointed out for your benefit, if for no other reason.

First of all, your use of caps is incredibly annoying. If you want people to actually read what you've written, try to write it like any normal, intelligent person would.

"It is pathetic to see people like you anti-religious folk use poor excuses like these to justify that EVERY Christian is that way."

You're the only person saying that EVERY Christian is that way. I for one know that when I was a Christian I was not that way. I also personally know at least a hundred Christians that are not that way. This story is about a pastor, not your average Christian. Pastors are supposed to be leaders and examples for their congregations and are entrusted with extra responsibility and power. If this were the only pastor that had inappropriately engaged in sexual acts with a teenager, then it would be easier to forgive and forget. Instead, he's another added to the growing list who has abused his power. If pastors are not called out on these types of crimes against humanity, then what's to stop the next pervert from using his position of power to get into a child's pants? The abuse of power by individuals like this man has to stop, and that starts with exposing it for the evil that it is.

"YOU who use excuses to attack other sinners (Christian or non-Christian) and use these excuses to pretend there is no God, sin, heaven, hell, or Satan are on for a BIG surprise on judgement day."

Take a look at who's actually making excuses...it's you. You're making excuses for this pastor. You're standing up for him, even though he's the one who has wronged humanity. Also, who's pretending? We're not pretending that there is no God, heaven, hell, or Satan. We don't have any proof that any of those things exist. Acknowledging the non-existence of something is the opposite of pretending. You pretend that it exists, with no evidence to prove it. As for sin, well if you define sin as the opposite of goodness, morals, and ethics, as most people would define it, then no one here is pretending that it doesn't exist. In fact, we've done the opposite by showing that this pastor has sinned.

Lastly, all your doom and gloom talk only makes me that much happier to be out of Christianity. I hate the fact that I was duped into believing in a god who treats us worse than trash. Your god not only throws away creations that he fucked up on, but then proceeds to burn them with a passion, and keeps the fire burning forever. He enjoys listening to the blood-curdling screams from atop his great white toilet where he shits on people like Job to prove a point to an enemy that he's already defeated. Who the fuck can respect that kind of god?

eel_shepherd · 2 years ago

A little anonymouse squeaked:
"... Hoping to see you in the heavens...I know I will be there...how about you?"

You're going to be there? Well, that makes it easy...

Anonymous · 2 years ago

I happen to go to this church. And he was a close friend, along with his victim. None of you know what you are talking about, for the sake of the people involved i ask for you to stop.

Astreja · 2 years ago

Ask all you like, Anonymous. The answer is 'No'.

Why are stories like that of Mr. Ryan featured so prominently on this site?

To point out that "men of God" are actually just ordinary men. No magical Holy Ghosties guiding their hearts. No supernatural Big Conscience in the Sky. Just simple abuse of power by people claiming to have knowledge of such beings.