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However, since you chose anonymous, I'll address you as anonynony.
Anonynony - please quote the Bible verse that says you should never spend your money on vile things.
That's number one.
Now explain what you are calling vile. Is it me? Is it this website? Is it anything or anyone who doesn't believe in your god?
That's number two.
Finally, please quote the Bible verse that supports not obeying your GOD when you don't like it.
That's about it.
Waiting to read your answer anonynony...
For Starters I would like to make it clear that I will not be donating anything to your cause and yes that still means I am a true Christian. I guess that by not making a donation of $10 upon request my actions make me a sinner and by your definition no sinners can truly be Christians but as a true Christian I can tell you this misguided ideal is not factual. As I’m sure your aware, or should be, Romans 3:23 points out that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” that means that there is no hope of me ever getting into heaven by trying obeying all the rules and as we know by your philosophies it is only “true” Christians that can get into heaven. I am very thankful that the blood of Christ was shed for the remission of my sins (matt 26:28) and that it is only by the blood of Christ that any one person can truly be called a “Christian”. I’ve posted Romans 3:24 - 27 at the bottom of this note, please read it. It states that it is only through Christs grace that people on earth can be redeemed. Though contrary to your beliefs it is only redemption that truly makes any one person a Christian, it is grace not actions! The disciple John wrote “But to as many as receive Him (Jesus), to them he gave the power to become children of God (Christians), even to those who believe on His name: (Jesus)” (John 1:12). Thank God I only have to confess with my mouth and believe with my heart that Christ died and rose again to be called a Christian because I would hate to have to go tell for not supporting this web site.
Romans 3:24 - 27 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
P.S. Personally if I were anonymous I would be referring to you and your website as vile. I hope this has cleared up a few things for you, its pretty basic!
Now, if you tell me I must repent and believe the gospel, then you are telling me that there is some action I must preform to receive that grace, which means it's not really grace, but a quid-pro-quo arrangement.
Regardless of all that - your flying undead GODMAN has ordered you to give to all who ask, and you are disobeying - willfully! And, you are just a bit rude too. Perhaps you are right - perhaps you are a true Christian.
I can’t believe anyone who has known Jesus Christ at one point in their life could give up their relationship for any impotent argument. Your missing the point! and your not even defending your position with any valid arguments, I saw more a challenge from my first year philosophy classes in college.
Your right when you ask, albeit facetiously, if you have nothing to worry about while you suffer through the “vileness” of your actions on this web site. But your actions are no worse than mine I guess and I’m glad for the both of us that this unmerited grace does cover a multitude of sins. It just takes one action and believe you already know what that action is.
Joel, lets go to the advanced philosophy course... What is it to "Know" Jesus... That requires you to define epistemological foundations for knowledge... looking forward to your response... if you find it hard to formulate a coherent response, then you have beliefs without knowing the fundamental requirements for validating information... While you're at it, I'd like to know what you your version for an ontological argument...
Jesus said (at least it is attributed to Jesus anyway) that those who loved him would keep his commandments. He also commanded his followers to give to EVERYONE who asked.
I am asking and you are refusing to obey. It's really quite simple, there isn't much philosophy to be bandied about it.
Finally, if I have to do ANY action to receive "grace," then it is no longer grace - it is payment for an action performed. If I do this, then god will do that. An exchange of sorts - a contract - a deal.
Grace is unmerited. If I perform an act, even a small act, to receive the grace, then in a small way, the grace was earned.
Now, may I please have ten dollars?
To Dave8, I will give your efforts to quiet my faith in Jesus Christ an A for you effort, however I would wager a bet that when you were pressed with this position from your professor in college there were no Christians around to defend their position, and it is because of this fact that I believe you’ve missed the basic precepts that have become the philosophic basis for Christianity, if that is what you want to call it. It took me a while but I managed to dig up an old article that I once read on this subject, to date this has been one of the best answers I’ve heard to question you’ve posed. I have posted a link to this article at the bottom, read it if you whish.
I would like to start by saying that there is as much epistemological evidence in the world today to support a belief in Christ as there is to dismiss this belief, but I am thankful that the scripture clears up this problem up for those troubled few who are in your position. James A. Fowler, the author of the article I’ve cited, does quit an excellent job of citing scripture so I will refrain from using any reference. It is a simple fact that the design of Christianity is not to have an epistemologically sound knowledge of every mystery but is however to come to the realization of the love of God which passes mortal understanding. Not in the epistemological sense of the word “know” as you desire but in the ontological meaning of the word know as it refers to a relational or experiential reasoning for the basis of knowledge. fowler writes in his article that “ Epistemological understanding is inadequate to comprehend the divine reality that is the essence of Christianity. The objective of the Christian message is not to encourage people to receive and accumulate and assent to information, but rather to receive the very Being of God into themselves (John 1:12) and allow Jesus Christ to be their life (Col. 3:4). . . The knowledge being considered is not just the knowledge of impersonal factual data and information, but the personal knowing of personal beings in personal relationship”.
If you would like a more in depth reasoning please see http://www.christinyou.net/pages/Xnotepis.html, if you just want empirical evidence please check out a few of these titles.
The Twilight Labyrinth - Georg Otis Jr. (great use of quantum mechanics to explain the spiritual realm)
A Case for Christ - Lee Strobal
Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Josh McDowell
Mere Christianity - C.S. Lewis
More Than a Carpenter - Josh McDowell
When you get done with these I’ve got more so please don’t hesitate to ask.
Thanks for all your time, but Dave8 I had a little trouble with the reasoning on your second question, if you could clear what it was you were trying to ask I will do my best to answer. And for the record I didn’t find it that hard to formulate this coherent response, thanks though.
Joel may the bright and morning star be your guide.You seem to have the same personality type.As per your -If I were you I would do my best to track down this Dave8 fellow because he is the only one I’ve met on this web site that has asked a fair question that is deserving of a fair answer.These questions require a fair answer
Joel Is infinte punishment a fair reward for finite sin.?
Do you have more compassion than god.?Would you torment someone Forever and ever.?
Matt. 10:28. "Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Christ is telling us that the body will be in hell, not just the soul. How do you explain this, if the body turns to dust after death?
Matt. 19:12. "There be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake." Why would Christ honor such a deed? A eunuch, of course, is a man who has been castrated. He tells us that some men have castrated themselves for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Why?
Matt. 19:17. "Why callest thou me good...?" Christ tells us that he himself is not "good." Only God is. (Meanwhile, God and Jesus are one and the same, according to the church.)
Matt. 23:13. "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: For ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." How could the scribes and Pharisees, according to Christ himself, "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men?" He then goes on to describe heaven in the present tense, saying "...For ye neither go in yourselves..." Why?
It appears to me, from reading these passages and others, that there was some way to "heaven" or "hell" that was understood in those days and honored by Christ himself. It was not "Jesus saves." That doctrine (salvation by grace), again, is born in the NT times, after Christs departure.
I left christianity after reading the bible, because it appeared to me that the doctrine of salvation by grace is not what Christ taught at all. That doctrine appears, again, after Christ. For that reason, among many others, I left.
What do you make of the teachings of Christ? Notice how he describes the "Kingdom of heaven." Throughout the gospels, he does so in parables and mysteries. His descriptions defy the common understanding that heaven is a perfect place where anyone who has "accepted Jesus" will reside forever in perfect joy and harmony with others. Why?
It's getting late. Goodnight, all. I'll be back.
Now, about your arrogance.
Oh nevermind, I've wasted enough time playing with you.
Joel, my efforts aren't to decrease your "faith" in your belief... "faith" is allegiance or loyalty to a cause, person or idealogy... Besides the words of a secondary, person, there is no logical or empirical test for "faith"... However, I can empirically and logically show, "how" you received your "faith", and what your foundations reside upon... For instance, you learned of a "god" from another person, and have accepted the words of "another" person verbally, and even the words of those who lived thousands of years ago...
Now, what makes your confidence in the person who told you about "god" greater than someones' who tells you there isn't a god... What makes you believe the words in "one" cannonized book, when there were many more writings of the early christian era that provide a different account for the nature of Jesus, i.e., as a mortal (Rabbinical Jews), a projective image only (Gnostics), an adoptive son (Ebionites), or those who just didn't accept him as a real person at all...
The easy answer is, the person who told you about "god", is someone you trust, and you also trust those of the First Council of Nicaea who voted on the Nature of Jesus over three hundred years after the life of a Jesus, and later the NT was formed as it stands today... Even with no evidence, you still "trust" what someone else told you regarding "god"...
Regarding religion, that's an entirely different matter, if you "chose" to believe in that which can't be proven through logic or reason, or were "taught" to believe in a certain manner, then you believe according to "one" person and their perspective...
"True" religions teach that there is only "one" perspective to be had, and that is the one based on "creed" and "doctrine", its the "truth" of the credo or doctrine that "define" the religion itself...
For those who pick and choose what to accept, and what to throw out of religious doctrine, etc., I don't see as religious, I see them as seeking truth, there's a big difference... The professors that provided my tuteladge in college, were not in the least concerned with "faith", that was a personal choice, they taught on the historicity of the bible, and knew full well the logical failings, and inconsistencies, yet still, they had "faith"...
They "desired" to believe in that which could not be logically or reasonably founded, and to them, that was enough... in short, it was a tradition of "hope" for them... The difference between the professors and educated (few as there were) religionists and the local community, was, that they knew full well the reasons why Other people didn't believe in the biblical versions of "god", and all of the other oral tradition thrown in over the years, i.e., trinity, original sin, etc., as these don't appear in the bible...
In short, they knew their "faith" was totally based on hope, and therefore, this excluded them most times from being "intolerant" of other views... Intolerance is supported by the fact that some person believes they have the "True" answer, a Universal Absolute Truth that others don't have..., or intolerance is nothing but a "defense" mechanism, where one persons' desire to have their "beliefs" justified, shows through their attempt to "reduce" other options, i.e., religious, logical, empirical, etc...
As an example; a distraught child who was protected and cared for by a parent(s) who suffered through misery in their life, may "feel" guilty, i.e., survivors guilt, etc... and therefore, to balance themselves psychologically, "hope" that their parent(s), etc., will be "justly" rewarded for their deeds, and be at "peace"... there are many reasons, why people choose to maintain "hope", in something greater for others... "justice" and a sense of "fairness" is one of the reasons...
Personally, I don' find a problem with the greater part of people "hoping" for the best..., however, when "hoping" detaches people from this natural reality, where logic and reason are neglected, it not only hurts them, many times, it hurts humanity, as the lact of logic and reason suport "intolerance"... There are many side affects to, assuming a belief not founded in logic and reason, self-abuse being one of the many... perhaps, the message of "hope" has been twisted and used like a tool, by many religious leaders of the past few thousand years, using a persons' pain, sorrow, etc., as a means to move the "flock" in the desired direction of the religious leader(s), and supporting their validity by attributing all that is good, and the good things in life, to the "origin" of their "hope"... god...
I no longer attribute, good things in my life to an external concept of "hope", I have learned I can do better than to "create" hope, I can actually "make" people comfortable in this life, by myself, and without the need to rely on some external origin of "hope"...
Joel Dave: "It took me a while but I managed to dig up an old article that I once read on this subject, to date this has been one of the best answers I’ve heard to question you’ve posed. I have posted a link to this article at the bottom, read it if you whish."
Joel, per the article you provided:
"Epistemology" is a philosophical term etymologically derived from three Greek words: (1) epi meaning "upon" or "on." (2) histemi meaning "to stand." (3) logos meaning "word," and indicating "logical consideration of or study of." The Greek word epistamai referred to the process of acquiring knowledge and understanding, as well as the significance of such information. Epistemology refers to the considerations of what we stand upon for our understanding. How do we know what we know? Why do we believe what we believe? Where do we take our stand concerning the opinions which we claim to believe and to know? These are the considerations of epistemology."
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/Xnotepis.html
The article hits ontology and the presence of being, as the foci for having a "true" christian belief, and states that epistemology in many cases causes christians to adhere to an epistemological heresy, seeking god through foundations logical or empirical...
I would agree in that respect, however, there then becomes the onus for this article to provide "information" (based on epistemological foundations), to support an ontological view of "being" and "nature/essence" of being, christianized as "soul"... In short, if epistemology is ignored as the foundation of faith (of which I can agree), but it then used to "support" ontological argument, then we must look at the epistemological support for the ontological argument... and what was provided on this web site, was "biblical verses" as the support...
Therefore, the foundation for truth, even for the ongological argument for religion, is based on what "other" people have said, a second hand revelation... The strongest "information" according to my philosophy, is "first hand" information, based on experience and logic...
Joel Dave: "I would like to start by saying that there is as much epistemological evidence in the world today to support a belief in Christ as there is to dismiss this belief, but I am thankful that the scripture clears up this problem up for those troubled few who are in your position."
The epistomological foundations for assigning the limits of "knowledge" and what is truly sound and what is purely hope, or speculation determines if that statement has merit... If a person believes that "experience" and empirical evidence are the strongest of "evidence" for knowledge, then there isn't as "much" epistomological evidence for, as well as against Christ... its quite apparent that a person with "experience" as the strongest validation for information, requires the "Sense" experience of a Christ in order to validate the claim of a Christ, and... that isn't happening, unless Christ pops up on my desk right now... waiting... "nope", stil not here... therefore, there is "far more" evidence, according to my "epistemoloigcal" limits and levels of strength I assign "information", against Christ... I have zero days in my life "experienceing" with my "senses", Christ, therefore, every day my confidence grows stronger on the non-existence of Christ...
Joel Dave: "James A. Fowler, the author of the article I’ve cited, does quit an excellent job of citing scripture so I will refrain from using any reference."
This author cites scripture, because this author like many have their epistemological limits loose enough to assign enough strength in second hand information, as to accept the information as "gospel"... I don't agree with the epistemological limit, of second hand information, as it would "over-ride" my first hand experiences and knowledge... This author has obviously discounted their "own" first hand experience, in order to accept a "second hand" revelation from someone else based on "faith", in that person, they have never met, known, seen, observed, senses, etc... So many books, all boiling down to the exact same philosophical premises...
Joel Dave: "It is a simple fact that the design of Christianity is not to have an epistemologically sound knowledge of every mystery but is however to come to the realization of the love of God which passes mortal understanding."
Then "why" would one place "faith" in the person that told them of god, when they were a child, or when they read about god somewhere... Historically, the design of Christianity grew over time according to rumors, etc... eventually being accepted and legalized by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in order to bring order into the empire, as there were "many" differing views of Jesus' nature, and if he had even lived... The statement you made, was, we can't ever really "know" god, but we must "know" of the love of god... That is an illogical statement, if one can't "know" god, then of course, the "attributes" of god can not be known either, to include, gods' intent, love, looks, etc., etc...
Joel Dave: "Not in the epistemological sense of the word “know” as you desire but in the ontological meaning of the word know as it refers to a relational or experiential reasoning for the basis of knowledge."
If "god" can't be known, then there can't be "relational" or "experiential" knowledge... As a matter of fact, Christianity in general believes "god" is transcendent beyond the bounds of this universe, in a metaphysically objective reality, where pure/true metaphysical objects reside, for example; heaven, hell, god, devil, etc... By definition, if god is transcendent, god does not reside in this natural universe, and therefore, can't be experienced, with reason, or relationally... Thus, the whole point of the early Roman Church fathers, saying that the writings in the bible were directly pulled from individuals who were "visited" by a divine spirit or divinely "guided", by gods' hand... still, it makes no sense by definition, notwithstanding, the huge gap, where the writings are supposed to have covered over a 2,000 year period, that'a a bunch of hand holding from a god, who wanted to get a message to people on earth...
Joel Dave: "...fowler writes in his article that “ Epistemological understanding is inadequate to comprehend the divine reality that is the essence of Christianity."
Right, divine reality presiding in a "metaphsyically objective" reality, separate and transcending the Natural Universe...
Joel Dave: "The objective of the Christian message is not to encourage people to receive and accumulate and assent to information, but rather to receive the very Being of God into themselves (John 1:12) and allow Jesus Christ to be their life (Col. 3:4). . ."
In short, you can never know "god" based on experience, and logical reasoning, hwoever, one can still "know" what a "being of god" is, and further, ask that "being" to enter into their life... If one doesn't have "knowleddge" of something, how does one ask for it, moreover, how does one "know" when they receive it, as there is no "epistemological" or empirical foundations required... Satan might just as well have entered someones' body, if they believe in a transcendent metaphysical objective reality wher all metpahysical objects reside...
Joel Dave: "The knowledge being considered is not just the knowledge of impersonal factual data and information, but the personal knowing of personal beings in personal relationship”.
Right, someone must be compelled to have a "need" for a personal relationship, and it doesn't matter if the "being" can be proven to "exist" or not... if the need is great enough, then one may be compelled to forego natural epistemological limits, and accept the "unknowable" as truth... some call this using creative thinking... This in and of itself isnt' terrible when one person has a personal belief, however, if one doesn't "know" god, then they shouldn't be condemning anyone else for their beliefs, especially if "their" beliefs are based on "first hand" experience... I haven't experienced the god described by christianity, and as far as the historical record, and even the author you provided, religions are looking to support evidence... to them, its more about the "message", based on "hope", once a person "desires" to believe...
Perhaps, one should ask, why some people "desire" to believe in a christian definition of god, and others don't... I don't have a need for a god in my life, I was given a brain, and ability to think, I don't admire those who choose to live their lives as innocent of worldly knowledge as a child... for they are the ones expoited by the religious leaders... In closing, if one really wants to "believe", why does it require "religious" affiliation... perhaps there's a social benefit, when one claims to be part of a group...
Please explan.As per your _I was given a brian and etc ?Who gave you the brain.?And where did they get it from.?
Brain "given" by Nature, and Nature is not a "They"... if implied, how long has Nature existed... I say, at a minimum, and with great confidence, Nature existed "before" I became conscious.... it continues to exist as I live... and it has existed long after people have left the earth throughout history, therefore, I can presume with some confidence that Nature will continue to exist, even after I pass...
I believe Nature has always existed, as there is no evidence to show otherwise... therefore, what I have, can only have come from Nature, and not Natures'parents... take care...
Premise:
"We don't exist"
There, now that seems to be concise... well, nihilism has its merits, even if to show, that some variables just can't be discounted for convenience sake... ;-)
Good news Dave8 I have just found out that Australian english differs from american english.So my research has led me to believe that I am now only 3/4 as stupid as I had seemed to be before.
Never before have so many done so little for so much.
I personally cringe at the label "Christian" as most Churches and Christians I have encountered do not try to live by the standard of love that Christ demonstrated and taught about. I struggle with what my spirit says about a loving, forgiving God and what is being taught and demonstrated by the Orthodox Christian community.
My long winded point is, yes I try to follow the message and example of Christ so I believe that makes me a "true" Christian and I wanted to encourage you to allow your intellect to rest and be open to the love of God that I know you feel in your soul and spirit. Please don't let difficulties of the mind stray you from what really is a loving, but misunderstood message of Christ.
I have struggled myself and was even an atheist for a few years before the love of God brought me back. If you are willing, I would love to communicate with you about your thoughts as I feel it would only be beneficial for both of us. I hope you don't think this email is preachy, I pray it's not, but I just wanted to reach out to a struggling brother as I am one, too.
27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. 30 "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. 31 "Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 "If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. 35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36 "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
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Letter of Barnabas 19:8-9
(8) "Share all things with your neighbor and do not say that anything is your own. For if you are partners in what is imperishable, how much more in what is perishable? Do not be garrulous, for the mouth is a deadly trap. In so far as you are able, be pure within. (9) Do not be one who reaches out your hands to receive but draws them back from giving. Love like the apple of your eye everyone who speaks the word of the Lord to you."
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I gave $10 because you asked....and as you have received....I have given you $10 more.
May peace and love find you in all hope of salvation in the blessed name of Jesus the Christ.
neoapostle.com
The doctrine of salvation by grace is a fraud.
The doctrine of salvation by grace is a fraud.
Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." (The Coptic Gospel of Thomas)
My brother, I'm glad to see you enlightened by teachings that for the most part do reflect peace and love. My God Jehovah is grace and love and His Son is the living example of that grace and love. Grace is “undeserved kindness”, and by example Christ has shown us that living a life of grace and love comes by choice. I wouldn't classify grace as a fraud, but rather a choice. Those who claim to live a life of grace and then do not strive for it would be the example of the fraud. When someone wrongs us in some way we are faced with only one choice. Naturally we all desire vengeance, but it takes a mind that is truly enlightened with the accurate knowledge of the truth to choose the path of love and grace. Salvation by Grace is not a doctrine it is the essence of hope. Ironically, if your belief is that salvation by grace is a fraud then by your own standards Buddhism would be classified as a fraud as well. From what I understand about Buddhism it is filled with teachings of anti-hatred and love as well as undeserved kindness (grace). I admit I'm not an expert in Buddhism, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Also, don't get me wrong I'm not judging or even condemning your beliefs, nor do I think it is your intention to contradict Buddhist teachings(as I understand them) so that wasn't designed as an attack. It is simply an observation of your comment and more or less a request of clarification.
The bottom line is, choosing "grace and love" is a choice that must be made by each of us every moment of every day. Choosing to show another human "undeserved kindness" in the face of "injustice" is the path to eternal life. Jesus is the path this is why he was called "the way" because he showed this to us through example. Buddhism seems to have elements of this path. You call it a "karmic wheel of death and rebirth." If rebirth means to be reborn in the spirit of "peace and love" I totally agree. If "death" is the result of living our natural desire toward hatred and vengeance this too I'm in total agreement. The only difference I suppose would be I put my hope in God Jehovah to give me accountability so that I may be perfected in love and grace. In my opinion without accountability peace and love cannot be achieved.
I believe Christ revealed this, but in addition all of God’s creation reveals it as well. It is testimony to the love of God when someone shows even the slightest bit of “undeserved kindness” no matter what label they prefer to use. The truth is I do not want to live in “poverty” and my hope rest in God Jehovah that “darkness” will be lifted and the more will come to understand themselves and to know God. Can you imagine a world that would live by the standards of love and grace? It would be nirvana or heaven or whatever you want to call it. It simply would be a world that would be glorious and it is attainable because it starts with you and me making the choice of love and grace rather than hate and vengeance.
Once again I pray that peace and love finds all of you in all hope of salvation in the blessed name of Jesus the Christ.
The christian doctrine of "salvation by grace" is this:
Humanity is in a "fallen" state, being the descendants of the first man and the first woman, who committed "original sin." "Sin" is any action or word that displeases God. Because Adam and Eve committed sin, they were cursed by God and ejected from the garden of eden and into the wilderness around them with the garden of eden being closed and guarded. They went on to produce the human race and we, being desendants of Adam and Eve, are born "sinners," cursed by God. We then go through our entire lives committing "sin." Because we are "sinners," God hates us and will cast us into eternal burning fiery torment (worse than anything on earth) when we die (or come "judgement day" as some denominations of christianity teach.) At some point, God devises a plan of "salvation" from said torment, and sends "His only begotten Son," Jesus Christ, to earth to die the most excruciating death known to humankind in those times, so that, if anyone will "accept" Jesus, he or she will then be taken to "heaven," an eternal paradise, when they die instead. To "accept Jesus" is to accept Christ as ones "Lord and savior." One is "saved" for having done this. Whether or not one "repents of sin," or walks with Jesus," or "obeys the commandments," is irrelevant. One is "saved" from eternal torment for having performed the ritual of "accepting Jesus." This is what is known as the "doctrine of salvation by grace." "Accept Jesus, and you're 'saved.'" It is exclusive to christianity. It is also the only way into heaven, according to the christian church, and there is no other way. Buddha would have to be considered to be a "false teacher" to a "true christian."
The whole thing is absurd.
As a true Christian I found this site very interesting, as I'm attempting to teach my children about God and His truth. I don't want to brainwash them, and I definitely don't want to give them religion. I've told them that they need to work it out for themselves and find out the truth, and not just to believe something because I've said it.
I think many of you ex-Christians are probably plain sick to death of hypocrisy and double standards in the church.How about your relationship with your parents? Did you feel a lack of sincere love?
I guess I'm trying to figure out why you believe what you do. Disappointment, anger, dissatisfaction? My initial response would be that you are probably fed up wih the church (which is a poor advert for God) and had enough of Christians (sadly also a poor advert for God, me included), and definitely religion.
Religion is constraining, life with Jesus is freeing.
Religion is unsatisfying and flawed, Jesus is flawless and fulfilling.
Religion offers liitle hope for the future, Jesus offers hope and peace in all the confusion.
Sorry, am I preaching here?
Please give Jesus a second chance - not religion. He loves you, and remains faithful even if you are unfaithful. Nothing compares to God's love. I don't want to live without it. Yes, I'm a weak mortal. Theres's so much rubbish in this life, that the truth of God's love and his amazing interest in little me is beyond anything else.
And by the way, yes God could stop all the nonsense in the world, but that would be the end of free will, as he'd have to force each individual to do nothing wrong or bad.
Anyway, give me donate link or paypal link and I'll happily send $10 if it will in any way help you know that God's still there and that he loves you. I love to think outside the box and will hopefully never settle for second best in my faith by getting comfortable with the church and all the Christian blurb and nonsense out there (much of Christian TV seems atrocious, for instance, as well as all the Christian bling. God must be appalled at all that goes on in His name.
Anyway, enough of my rant,
I love you guys, I'm sorry religion messed you up. God won't mess you up - just people.
See ya,
Annie
Annie you're a brainless religious snothead. just go away.
The worst thing is, that even after leaving Christianity, the little buggers follow you. This is evident from personal experience and this website. These answers to "No True Christians" are a good example. Not only will they disobey their bible verses but they will try to convert the heathen back to the safety of the 'saved'. Joel Dave's comments are a perfect example of this. It's best not to encourage their blather.
The best Christian is a mute Christian.
Oh, and I liked Annie's little rant about how those that de-converted were somehow abused etc. and this is why they left the church. Not because we actually have minds or anything. Another typical fundie comment.
Give to anyone who asks, he says, and I'm asking for ten dollars - that's all.
Waiting...
WM, I think Danny boy wants to have a reason to look some up for you..hehehe
God have mercy on you (and those t.v. evangelists!) Context, context CONTEXT friend. I know what you have quoted and I believe it and seek to obey it but you must always back up scripture with scripture to get the CONTEXT.
The Bible says "servants, obey your masters." However, if my boss told me to shoot someone, would I do it? No, I would be violating another command, namely murder.
If someone told me that they were going to shoot themselves but had no money for the bullets and then asked me for the money to buy them, would I give it to them? No, for then I would be participating in this persons attempt at suicide/murder.
Likewise you ask for money to consume it upon your lusts. God HATES what you are doing (yes, HATES) so why should I help you in something my Lord and Saviour hates? Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the LORD hate...an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief..."
So you see, why should any believer contribute to your sin if God HATES it? I would not buy an alcoholic more alcohol, but I would buy him food and clothing and help him whatever honest ways I can. I would help a thief, but I would not help him in his deeds of stealing. And I could go on.
I WAS an athiest, but praise God I've found true satisfaction in the Lord Jesus Christ. May you come to know him too.
http://www.biblicalwitness.co.uk
You have a problem enabling people engage in acts contrary to your values? Really, lets see.
Would you have the same problem, giving an instruction manual to someone that presented a case for killing witches, murdering those who didn't believe exactly as the instruction guide demanded, unnecessarily torturing people, shedding the blood of innocent babies until you were ankle deep in blood, etc, etc? If you would have a problem, then you wouldn't let someone get a hold of the bible.
Its easy, if you believe in the bible, give $10, and you get to continue living according to the bible which is full of hate speech. If you don't give the $10, then obviously, you really don't believe the bible and in its exactitude, and don't have any room to speak of its truth as the inerrant word of a god.
So, in short, its simple. Put up, or shut up. Sorry to be so blunt, but, that appears to be dilemna you are in as a person practicing religion.
biblicalwitness: "I WAS an athiest, but praise God I've found true satisfaction in the Lord Jesus Christ. May you come to know him too."
Really, lets see. So, define what your philosophy used to be as an Atheist If you have no clue, then you had a title, not a philosophy you understood. What you have done, is crucify personal logic, in order to receive some social salvation. Problem is, your loss of logic is the beginning of you living an illogical life, which may create social dysfunction, unless you find other enablers to support your habit. Seeing your first comment, I'd say you have already lost some ability to use logic, but, perhaps you feel socially popular and accepted by others who share in the same illogical belief.
The context is asking for material things like coats, cloaks, etc.
I'm asking for ten dollars.
Are you saying asking for ten dollars is the same as asking you to murder? Do you really think that compares?
Please give me ten dollars - please.
Or, disobey your God bt refusing.
So, since you've labeled me as unthankful and evil, or whatever, please OBEY YOUR GOD and grant my tiny request. You have quite a mouth, so put your money where your mouth is.
Waiting...
People have to learn religion - we all start out as atheists.
Yes I believe in governmental justice against the wicked. You can call it murder or whatever but God is a JUST God. And I didn't label you evil, I just quoted the scriptures and I'll do so again because even though I agree that God loves, he hates your sin and will punish you if you don't repent and believe in Christ. Psalm 7:11 "God is angry with the wicked every day".
Oh and I apologise for saying I was an athiest, there is no such thing, just agnostics which is what I assume you are. There is no athiest because no one can say "there is no God" because to be able to say that you need to have absolute knowledge of the universe and because no one even has 0.01% of ALL knowledge then no one can say there is no God. All you can say is that you don't believe there is a God. However, this will not change anything. Whether you believe in God or not, you'll still stand before him and give account of yourself, your sin and your rejection of Christ.
Oh and to comment again on your money making scam, you're acting just like the moneychangers and those who were buying and selling in the temple. They were rogue traders and Christ went in with a whip and scourged them and overthrew the tables.
Please friend, consider your ways!
Your right, we cannot say with 100% that there is no deity just as you cannot say with 100% that there is a deity! Your odds go through the floor in trying to say that your god is the right god, probably less than 1%!
true to a certain extent, but after having weighed both sides (is there or isn't there a God?) i have concluded beyond shadow of doubt that God MUST exist and that this God has created the universe. I mean to say that all genetic information of ALL life comes from a single celled organism, and that that organism came from some sort of 'soup' and that the earth came from a rock wherein lay all the matter of the whole universe and that this rock just exploded giving what we have today...it's ludicrous!
No, by choosing the verses I am giving you the mind of God, not my mind. I can't see where I have been rude but whatever.
I shall cast no more pearls other than one, "let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him RETURN unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."
I find no evidence to believe in a god or gods, so I don't. For much the same reason - no evidence - I don't believe in UFOs, Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, the mysteries of Bermuda Triangle, the lost continent of Atlantis or that ancient astronauts visited our ancestors.
By your definition of atheism, you should be believing in UFOs, the Invisible Flying Pink Unicorn, Allah, Zeus, and every other god or goddess ever invented.
Why?
Because you cannot possible traverse the entire universe to PROVE those things don't exist.
That is so stupid!
You are every bit as much an atheist as I am. The ONLY difference between you and me is that you believe in one more god than I do.
Oh, there is one other difference. You're extremely rude. You see, this is OUR website, and you are an uninvited guest. You are in our house - yet you have no problem being aggressive and nasty.
Ah, I love "TRUE" Christians like you. "I did not call you evil, I just quoted the Scriptures," you say. Yes, but you chose the verses to quote, now didn't you? You picked them with your mind. You decided to type them with your fingers. Your intention was to label me as evil. You did that, and you enjoyed it, didn't you? How about this: "I am only quoting the Koran and doing the will of Allah!" Does that convince you of the truth of Islam? If not, why not? When you understand why the rantings of an Islamic fanatic mean nothing to you, you'll realize why your rantings mean nothing to us.
However, go ahead, quote away. You disobey the command of your GOD to give to everyone who asks, and you hold fast to the verses that condemn people. You don't want to give away your money to wicked strangers, so you ignore those verses, but you have no problem condemning others, so those verses are "right on" - apparently.
Frankly, quote all you like. Islamics do the same thing, and not one of their verses, or your verses, have the slightest impact on me. From what I understand, Allah's hell is a lot hotter than Yahweh's - perhaps we should both convert to Islam!
Seriously, please study some Christian history - the Bible keeps has been re-interpreted so many times, you'd might be surprised to realize that your brand of fundamentalism, and many of your doctrines, are relatively new.
How do I know this? I studied. Nearly all the doctrines floating around today are relatively new on the scene. That knowledge helped free my mind after 3 decades of slavery to the Christian Meme.
Sadly, in my Christian hey-days, I used to sound just a little to much like you.
It's embarrassing.
A little middle-aged man wearing a self-righteous smirk, his hands plastered against his ears, shouting at the top of his lungs: "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA."
Please, please, please, please obey your GOD! I'm only asking for $10. If you refuse to do what's right, especially you, since God is your buddy, then you risk all for a meager ten-spot.
I guess a pharasitical condemnatory approach to religion is cheaper and easier than the obedience route.
Is calling someone a swine a compliment?
So it's GOD who is rude bastard!
That makes sense.
So, in that case, when the Nazi's acted out the words written in Mein Kampf, it was only Hitler's mind that was being touted, and the SS were guiltless.
BW, the Bible was written by men - bronze age men - ignorant men - men. You are quoting the words of MEN!
You should have left it at middle-aged. At 23, you really have a lot to learn.
Another broken promise.
Perhaps you should admit you are agnostic towards Allah, for you cannot possibly explore the entire universe to be sure Allah doesn't exist!
I'm still waiting for my $10. I don't think you believe in your Jesus either - you certainly don't find ignoring his commands a problem.
Nice religion.
And you computed that number, how?
MEN WROTE THE BIBLE - MEN WROTE THE BIBLE - MEN WROTE THE BIBLE.
Okay, say it with me, MEN WROTE THE BIBLE.
I hope someday you learn to think with your own mind instead of just being a parrot.
G'bye.
God HATES what you are doing (yes, HATES) so why should I help you in something my Lord and Saviour hates? Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the LORD hate...
So you see, why should any believer contribute to your sin if God HATES it?
HATE?????????
How can an all loving God produce Hatred?????
Unless this god is Satan also, so thats the KEY isn't it?
God and Satan are one, like a Twoheaded Beast.
Yes we have it..God and Satan is one enitity, a GODLY TWOHEADED Beast Creature Thing.
One side of this godly beast is always loving, kind, caring, blessing, sympathetic, forgiving, sharing, etc.
But the other side of this godly beast is always a cruel, hating, damnning, punishing, deceiving, killing, tortureing, judging, etc.
According to the babble there is only one God, then this means that only one God can be worshipped, thusly then no one can worship Satan, without worshipping God also.
This being that God and Satan are one God together and cannot be seperated, there can only be one God, the one that controls all things that are Good and Evil.
This is the reason that no one has ever been allowed to see this God in person and he does not make himself visible to physical beings, because this God is a dual enitity, while the good God is handsome and pleasing to the eyes, then Satan is purely wretched and discusting, no human could view this creature, without wanting to die upon the instant of casting their eyes on this creature.
The mystery solved right here folks!!!
God the creator of all things, including good and evil is in all reality a dual creator enitity creature, that cannot be fully described by the human mind, but none the less is bi-polar in nature and is one with all things consisting of good and evil, it cannot be created nor destroyed, thereby everything that it does or commands, this God creature is totally to blame and responsible.
It is called, I AM, A jealous God, I Hate, I create, I destroy, I control the Universe.
I God, know all things that exist, because I God, created everything that there is.
There is no other God or Gods, I am the God, the God of all Good and Evil, the God of all things.
I God, you cannot worship me, you cannot pray to me, I already know all there is to know, all worshipping and praying will be in vain and futile.
I God, there is nothing a human can do to win my favor, by having creating you and your source of DNA Blocks, this alone is my favor to you, but you humans hold the key to your own demise.
I God, by supplying you humans a planet that you can call your own and I gave you humans freewill to think clearly, you humans control how you all behave, depending on how you use your ability to think clearly and to live in peace and harmony together will also seal you and your planet's your own fate.
There is no need for any religion or Godly worship of any kind, there is no need for hatred or anamosity between any humans, all humans have the ability to rise above seperation between races, you can all live comfortably and peacefully together, but only if you give up your differences and your false religions, otherwise you will become as vipers to one another, trying to impress and impose on to someone that your God is better than someone elses, when there can only be one God, the one God that no one is allowed to see, for now.
I God, created the Universe and gave you humans a gift of life to share on the floating sphere that you call Earth, and what do you do? You have distroyed, defaced, and are near annihilation and extermination of most of my precious creations.
Why? Because you humans insist in worshipping an invisible enitity that to you for some reason think that something that you can possibly do to would be pleasing to me. I God, have no reason and no disire to be pleased or worshipped by anything or anyone, so stop this nonsense now, before I God, send a Tsunami over the face of the Earth.
I God, put you humans on this planet to grow in mind and peace with one another, but what have you done? you've divided yourselves with religion and religious philosophies and have used wealth and greed to seperate yourselves when there is not one human better than another human anywhere on the planet, not one.
Is this the thanks that I get, for giving you humans a chance to grow and prosper and to love one another, to be kind and helpful and thoughtful to everyone?
You humans make a mockery of me God, with your daunting religions and your self-serving philosophies and your man made churches and your religious false idols and icons.
You were all made equal, and my love for you all is equal, there will be no judgement after your death, I cannot hold judgement on something that I alone created.
All humans and all animals that have ever lived will be with me in the my kingdom of peace for ever. I do not find fault with any being that I have created or that has ever lived.
Live for peace and brotherhood do not live for what your mind can imagine, I God cannot be imagined, your brain does not have the capability to imagine a creator such as I, I God, with held that function for my own reasons.
Humans heed to this message, you need to be saved from your own insanity.
Obviously, you don't know much about your own philosophy, as suspected.
BW: "There is no athiest because no one can say "there is no God" because to be able to say that you need to have absolute knowledge of the universe and because no one even has 0.01% of ALL knowledge then no one can say there is no God."
This gets better every time I have to see it, however, lets play the game. BW, you make a great point. We create our beliefs based on knowledge, even our wishes and desires. Its part of all that universal knowledge, that we just don't have.
You, started out with no knowledge in this life, and have only received knowledge of this physical reality. There is "zero" information, you hold, that can be considered obtained from a supernatural source, i.e., a god, who resides in some transcendental reality outside of this universe. Therefore, I know for a 100% fact that; 1) You learned the word "god" from a physical person, 2)You learned the "concept" of that god, by modeling in your mind how the god given to you would appear if you were to "imagine" it; and 3) You have no information, either experiential or physical that can be used uniquely to prove a claim of something residing in a transcendent reality where a god per christianity is supposed to exist.
So, lets just say this; I know for a 100% fact, that "you" have Zero knowledge of the god you say exists, because you can't have that knowledge if your god resides in a transcendent reality. I know for a 100% fact, that if you can't have knowledge (explicit sensory information detailing the god), or experience a transcendent god, then you can not possibly "Claim" that a god exists.
In the future, when you finally leave this planet, after death, I will further know for a 100% fact, that if you "do" experience something novel, and in a transcendent reality, it will "Not" be something you previous knowledge of. Therefore, you can't claim it to be the "god" you pictured in your mind, as that would make your god, a natural god.
If you don't have previous knowledge of it, it in fact does not exist. You 'hope' that something will exist beyond this life for you, but all you have is hope.
Therefore, from an Atheist point of view, your "god" does not exist in a universal sense, and that's a 100% fact. The god in your mind is much different than any other persons' concept of god on this planet, because you model your god in your own mind based on your experiences in life. So, great point, we have only so much knowledge of this universe. But, you are obviously lacking in the logic department. Knowledge of the Universe will never render you knowledge of your god.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you, but... even if you had 100% full knowledge of this universe, you still couldn't prove your god exists... Why? Because the knowledge of this universe is natural knowledge, not "SuperNatural" knowledge. Your god is supposed to be of SuperNatural origin and make-up. See how that works, its impossible to say your god exists, but its easy for an Atheist to say... Your god in your 'naturaul' Mind, does not exist in a transcendent reality, end of story. Because all you have is natural knowledge floating around in your mind.
Agnostic: "Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth values of certain claims, particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God, gods or deities, are either unknown or inherently unknowable."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic
I know this is abstract, and I get pinged for it every now and then, but let me just say I see Agnosticism and Atheism as kin. An Atheist is more convinced of the Agnositics argument than the Agnostic, that's all.
Atheism = Knowledge must build Existence. Without "knowledge", no existence.
Agnosticism = Existence doesn't necessarily have to be based on Knowledge. There is the potential for existence beyond ones' knowledge. However, this would mean, that a god may exist, but can never be "known".
Now, BW, define your god, and I'll tell you which of the two make more sense. If you define your god, as the typical mainstream christian, then obviously, Atheism is a viable belief. If you define your god, as something as general as "the greater something of this universe", then Agnosticism makes a better argument.
Here's the bottom line, the further you move from this physical reality to validate your god, the more Attrative Atheism becomes as a belief system. If you move closer to natural terms, basing your view of god more in line with this universe and physical reality, then Agnosticism becomes an Attractive belief system.
The more "specific" your description of a god, the more unlikely the existence, and hence, better support for Atheism. The more "general" your description of a god, the more likely you will be able to bring people from Atheism to Agnosticism, in a logical argument.
However, logically speaking, the best you can hope to do is to argue someone into an Agnostic position, based on your concept of god. Atheism is the rebuttal to bible breathing inerrant bible with extremely defined specific god. Agnosticism is the rebuttal to the liberal christian who believes "something" exists, but they just can't put their finger on it.
So, why don't you describe your god for us, and lets see which positions we take up. I'd love to hear your detailed description, of a just and loving god, with all the anthropomorphic detail, as I am sure you know where I am going to fall back to for rebuttal - or perhaps not. I am not sure, you even got what I just said.
A) "The bible says...(insert arbitrary/biased passage from the bible)"
B) 'Twas the Night Before Christmas "says" that a fat dude in a red suit climbs down chimneys and delivers presents to all the girls and boys on the planet.
Religio-bot challenge: Silently---please go through the normal thought process of determining that the latter situation, "B", is false.
...::tick-tock, tick-tock::...
'Done yet? Okay, good job... now take the EXACT same reasoning/deduction skills that you just got done using to determine that "B" is false, and apply them to the former situation, "A"....EXCEPT, pretend for a second that you don't get rewarded eternal life for believing in "A".
Viola! Now wasn't that easy? Welcome to reality! lol!
PS: Also, if you would, please get it through your skulls that everyone came into this world an "Atheist"(i.e...without belief in gods).
Voltaire.
via Dave.
But we don't believe in your god, so YOUR statement is meaningless. I could just as well warn you that Allah or Krishna has left you "with your own devices". Does that statement carry any significance for you? Probably not. Do you see the parallel?
Anonymous: "Just remember, in the end what you believe or don't believe doesn't matter. Only one person's opinion counts...you know who that is."
No, I don't know who that is. Which "person" are you referring to?
Anonymous: "All the language here blaspheming my God. I'd be shaking in my boots."
Be sure to put on some music when you're shaking those boots. :-)
Anonymous: "No sense in quoting scripture to you, because you turn it all around to make it say what you want."
Another possibility is that we insist on reading its plain and obvious meaning, and NOT spinning it so as to avoid all the difficulties. In my experience it's the Christians who bend word meanings and ignore context to a much greater extent than the non-believers.
Anonymous: "Not believing in God, Heaven and Hell won't make it go away."
Believing in them does not make them real. Do you agree with that or not?
Bye.
Great, apparently the "device", I've been given, is my Mind and therefore, your god obviously intended me to use that device, knowing omnisciently well, that he couldn't be logically accepted.
Oh, and while you are shaking in your boots, it appears that you are suggesting that your omnipotent god is a "person", or is your device not working properly. I can envision you now, shaking like a bobblehead doll in a mosh pit with your eyes closed due to fear. Enjoy your delusional life...
You say that your god and your beliefs are real, yet you insist in useing the word (if), if you are right, if we are wrong, yet you cannot say for 100% certainty that you are right, why not? What gives you the right to come on here or anywhere else and spout your silly beliefs without 100% certainty?
Keep believing guys.
Dave
And then went on to say:
"Matthew says not to throw your pearls to swine...dust off your feet and leave...(not word for word)...I'll leave you in own your little corner. One thing, if I'm wrong and you're right, I really don't have anything to lose; but if I'm right and YOU'RE wrong, you have a whole lot to lose."
Well as we can see, the only way these little twits (Christians) “think” they can get you to believe and accept their religion is through meaningless threats.
I am more afraid of an abusive spouse who will most definitely, without a doubt, no ifs ands or butts kick my ass if I don't do what he says. - but a mythical god paaaaleaseeee.
The Abusive Spouse Syndrome is exactly the kind of mentality these (once again) twits are trying to push. You Christians need some serious help and any competent psychiatrist will tell you to run quickly from such a relationship.
There are some philosophical renderings which must be taken on philosophically. However, I can't think of one dichotomy, when dealing with metaphysics. For instance, you suggest two possibilities, an Atheist point of view, where you have nothing to lose, and your own personal flavor of god, heaven and hell where everyone who doesn't think like you pays.
However, what about the billions of other people who have religions or philosophies which are nothing like yours or what you perceive the people on this site to believe. There are billions of possibilities, one for every person and their personal belief, based on their unique perspective.
So, probability just shot you into a category, where your religious proposition is one in billions, and you have no logical evidence for your belief. I suppose you should be shaking in your boots, you're playing the religious market, but you haven't diversified. Perhaps, you should pick up a few more religions, just in case yours isn't the right one.
Just take up some of the more polytheistic religions, like Daoism (Taoism), they are more universal and accept many gods, and for a bonus their religious foundations date back 3/4 Century BCE.
Um, you need to check your facts. I'm not sure where you heard that, but five seconds with Google will turn up much to the contrary. Here is one such link. Please do check out the claims through other sources; I don't expect you to take my word for it. You'll find that Mithra, Osiris, and Krishna predate Jesus, and were also archetypal hero figures, just like Jesus.
Oh, and by the way, you forgot a cliché: "He sent his only son to die for us".
Be good now.
"God is a jealous"
Is it jealous of the other gods?
Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
Who is the US and who is the OUR in Let us make man to our image?
Did your god need help from the other 5000+gods?
Well I realize I'm talking to a 14 year old boy scout here.
You have christ!!! What the crap does that mean? It means that you've been brainwashed to believe in a mythological being.
"He was here long before your other man made gods." Are you really that daft?
What makes you think that you are a christian? You and only you.
You have to tell people that you are a christian, why? can't they tell without you telling them?
So if you were a Muslim, you would want bomb people that do not believe like you, but yet you think you have a right to pass judgement on people that do not believe the same as you, then you're no different than a Muslim, you're a self-righteous bigot who thinks that by having a belief makes you superior over others that do not have a belief as yours,
that is the intention, and M.O. behind all religions, to make one think that they are superior just because they have a belief in an ancient myth.
I know this is way over your head, it will be years before you come to your senses, if ever!!!
It's probably now time to catch your school bus, run along you little snot-nosed punk.
If you think Christianity is so superior to Islam in regards to killing those who disagree, try thinking beyond your personal history and culture and just think about how Christianity treated its detractors in the past.
For well over a thousand years non-Christians were marginalized, tortured, or murdered for not being "true" Christians. You really need to read some history.
As far as being persecuted for being a Christian, what torture have you endured? People rolling their eyes? People laughing? People slowly inching away from the conversation?
Well, stroke that horrible persecution complex of yours and obey your God's commands: may I have ten dollars please?
Guilty of what? Not believing in him? Not cowtowing? Not fearing and trembling?
What?
For beating off I'm going to be burning in horrific conscious agony for all eternity?
For telling my wife that white lie I'm going to cook like a hamburger on an eternal barbecue pit?
Tell me something "WILL NOT CLEAR THE GUILTY," what sin or sins have you committed in your short little life that deserve everlasting punishment in God's sadistic torture chamber? What kind of justice demands an eternity of burning tortured agony, without any chance of release, as the recompense for supposed temporal offenses?
Anyway, can I have ten dollars?
i would like to ask for $10 too =D if you are true christians, you gotta gimme!
i agree what was said above. christians tend to spin and miquote the bible more than we do. well actually we dont even do that. we give SEVERAL quotes in it's FULL CONTEXT of what it says and how it contradicts, but they still refuse to see the truth.
i came across a site that fully and completely argues against fundamentalist and their common beliefs. i urge christians to read the essays, and if you still call yourself a christian after reading the essays.... then wow... you have really been brainwashed BIGTIME!
check it out:
http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/indexother.htm
-'Groo the Wander' Epic Comics #86
FOOL!!
but again... i urge you to read these essays:
http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/
$10 for a stranger who led me to Christ when i wandered away from my grandparents at a woodworking craft show they took me to when i was a child.
$10 for my ex-atheistic sister who sought the Lord on her face and welcomed Him into her life last year.
$10 for me - and i hope it DOES help this site grow and flourish. i am certain other christians will peruse this page and be heartbroken, moved, touched, and motivated as i have been.
chances are i'll not be back here, so reply comments might be in vain. i'll tell you, however, to keep thinking - and praying if you're the praying type - about the reality of God and the love, grace, and mercy He offers. i, too, am sick to death of religion, church, and christians. we're not perfect (though some of us would argue about that...) but we're being transformed into the One who is.
be blessed and be a blessing.
Like I always say: You can dress a turd up in Barbie clothes all you want---but it's still a turd.
God 'less
quoting from the bible, it can be very confusing i know, truth is it has a lot of metaphors and all that. so in order to get the truth u hve to dig deep. whnever i encounter something fishy in the bible, i stop and pray to God about it. Usually he leads me into understanding them thru many ways, e.g. reading helpful books, listening to spirit-filled pastors, etc. wen u think abt it, God talks in many ways! some of u may hve turned from the faith maybe because u literally didnt hear from God, but actually God talks in many ways (not exactly literally His voice from heaven, though some people do!=D) reading the Bible is one way He speaks to us! His Spirit enables us to stop and take notice!
im a christian, and what i'd like to say is that Christ lives in me. His Holy Spirit dwells in me. that's all that matters. u say that uve asked God to come into your life many times but never really 'felt' it. the question is, have u really encountered God? if u ask me why i believe in God i can just say, I just do. I because I encountered Him, His Holy Spirit is one on the myriad of proof to me that He is real (sorry for my bad english btw). ive recently been to a youth camp with a very anointed preacher. the altar calls were amazing! no doubt God's spirit was moving in the place. i remember just standing with other youths and praying to God with hands lifted up, I could feel the Holy Spirit fall on me as I began to speak in tongues then whoosh! i fall backwards with other youths. the irony is that its my body's gone limp and that's how i fell backwards. i was also shaking and still speaking in tongues. i have to say my mind was still conscious then, and it was like im in my body and my mind can still think and i was thinking to myself, "wow, i'm speaking in tongues!" after all that i sat up. i was still shaking and praying. then i got up and walked over to my friend; i had the longest hug ever and we cried. we cried because of our encounter with God. He was very real.
ive noticed that wen people are really in conviction, their souls are crying out and they're thinking, "is there more to life? (btw its like the song 'more to life' by stacie orico. shes a christian singer too) ive tried this and that (such as drugs) but all is left inside of me is emptiness." so wen they cry out to God... "God, if you are real, show me. Heal my wounds. I'm dissatisfied in this world...." thats wen God comes. He's compassionate to those who humble themselves and shake off worldy vices, admitting that there's really nothing in the world. and the rest? it's history. they hve encountered God.
dont be surprised if i said that i'll pray for conviction to come upon u guys. its one thing for u to open ur eyes and realize. where u can just say "I GIVE UP! GOD HELP ME!! I CANT DO THIS!"
sometimes its sad to think that people try to fill that special God-shaped vacuum in their hearts with substitues such as ..looking for happiness by seeking pleasure. or by gaining prestige and power or by acquiring possessions. they are not eternal; u cannot find genuine, longlasting happiness in them.
if im getting really confusing here, im sorry. i'd love to point to u everything. the bottom line is, that we first shrug off these arguments, and determine God first. ask these two crucial questions:
1)who are You, Lord?
2)Lord, what do u want me to do?
what can i say about the other christians here who try to explain to you all and try to answer ur questions? they just want to help. i see some of the comments here and it can really be exhausting just reading them. i cud just give up and spit out, "go to hell! then u'll know!" but wat i am trying to say is that we're doing this out of love. we 're spending all this time to try to pull u in God's love and experience all the goodness. at the moment there r alot of hatred and sin this world, the devil is trying his very best to try to lead people away from God, deceive them into believing he does not exist, etc A LOT! the devil is afraid that christians will have many converted so he works double harder to try to convince others not to, offering a myriad of questions, skepticism, philosophies, etc. we as christians r also trying our best.
so bottom line is:
"Not by might nor power, but by the Spirit of the Lord," -Zechariah 4:6
b4 i go id like to clear stuff abt why i wudnt wanna leave my site address, etc...well truth is im still in my early teens and of course i wud wanna keep myself safe.
oh yeah and in reply to freeman's question:
Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
Who is the US and who is the OUR in Let us make man to our image?
Did your god need help from the other 5000+gods?
"Let Us make man to Our image.."
The "Us" and "Our" in the sentence is...well God the father was talking to His son of course! [God the father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit] are ONE, in Trinity. Jesus was with Him. and if ur wondering, "wat do u mean? Jesus only appeared many years later on!" actually, no, see... the Trinity. God literally shook off His glory and came to earth as a humble human (Jesus) so He could experience EVERYTHING human beings go through. so yeah that's wat it is. it's not other 5000+ gods. They are One.
so u see, dont easily jump into conclusions.
and if u have any doubts abt the trinity id be glad to help.
i might get scowled at or criticized abt all this, but i do hope that i have shed some light in on this.
ok later! =)
p.s. lurves_it@yahoo.com
No shit?....early teens? Who wudve guessed? LOL
Ignited, listen up---This is an EX-christian site, understand? We've seen a B-A-Z-I-L-L-I-O-N testimonies just like yours from X-ians who stumble in here thinking that they have some kind of unique perspective on "Truth". Understand, your post means ZERO to any rational/free thinker. You use words like "spirit" and "Trinity", yet, those words have no referent in reality. NONE. Like others, you're argument for your God amounts to nothing but your own delusional subjective experience. And believe me, we've heard them ALL.
BTW, you haven't
"answered" anyone's question(s) here. Hell no---all you've done is regurgitate a bunch of "pop" X-ian superstitious sound bites---the same biblio-crap that was handed to the very person(s) who handed it to you.
And please, before you bumble your way back in here and tell us we're all going to "hell".... please, brush up on the meanings AND the differences of the words "subjective", and "objective". Thanks.
Does this mean you will be obeying your God and sending me $10.00?
webmaster,
eh? me? i dont hve credit card or wtv to pay u. but even if i did, i wudnt pay. thts it. end of discussion.
Do your parents know you're on this site? Shall I notify them?
It's not your English---it's your grammer, spelling, and punctuation that give you away. And before anyone get's hot under the collar--- no one's saying that ALL Christians are uneducated, it's just that most uneducated people are religious.
ummmm ignited... please look up these verses:
numbers 23:19
hos 11:9
1 sam 15:29
job 9:32-33
malachi 3:6
nearlyfooled
What you are saying is you refuse to obey your God if it means feeding pigs.
You are being disobedient to a clear command that appears inconvenient, and hiding behind a verse that keeps your money and self-righteousness safely protected.
BTW, in context, those pearls refer to pearls of wisdom, not ten lousy dollars.
My conscience is clear... how's yours?
Sincerely,
Matthew L. Bergen
Stella, MO
"I just answered your challenge as a true Christian. However, my donation was $20 since Matthew 5:41 says: "And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain (two)."
My conscience is clear... how's yours?
Sincerely,
Matthew L. Bergen
Stella, MO"
NOW Matthew!
Look in your bible and find a verse about not hiding your light under a bushel or not being afraid to profess your faith in Jesus. (I'm sure you can find one to cover this)
Pack up you clothes and get on an airplane and fly to a Muslim country, stand on the street corner and yell at the top of you voice: "Mohammed was a perverted pedophile, crazy as a loon" over and over, and give up your head also. Their religious book tells them to kill you if you profane their prophet or denounce their God, Allah.
Dan (agnostic bacon loving realist)
Hey wait, if I give ten dollars does that make me a "true" christian. Oh wait, I'm not a christian, LOL!
I assure you, I am doing all I can in the place I currently live to "let my light shine" as you so forthrightly admonished me. I actually have been in prayer about if I am to do that in another nation, even a Muslim nation.
I will continue to pray for you.
In Christ's Love,
Matthew L. Bergen
Thanks for your support! If you need help answering any questions about your faith (even the devout have them), please feel free to ask. I for one would be willing to help you sort them out. Perhaps not the way you might imagine of course, since I'm an agnostic. Maybe doing so would open your eyes to new possibilities, without changing your basic character.
Alright kids,
Let's not act like jerks to people like Matthew who appears to be sincere. Besides, he's helped to support the site. Say thanks!
Merely being a Christian isn't a crime, and if it helps some folks to become better people, fine. Not all Christians are fundies spewing judgment and hate.
Dano, in fairness the Bible does not tell Christians to get in people's faces and deliberately insult them in order to profess their faith. That's something fundies have come up with all on their own.
Dave W/M, deserves credit for keeping this site up. I know it must be a full time job. Anyone who sends him money deserves to be thanked by those of us who spend time reading and posting here.
I do know that this website has been an education for me. I guess I am just to dumb to know where to look but I would like to see a P/O Box or something where I could have "Bill Pay" send a check. That is the only way I pay bills or send money to anyone.
Dan (Who never really did take Christianity seriously, and now that I know how silly it is, never could)
Please know that I do not mean this in a rude or spiteful way. I am glad to give money (if I have it to give) to any individual who truly has a need.
Yours,
Matthew L. Bergen
Catagorize me whatever way you like, but it seems to me that a Christian who fleeces Christians is most accurately comparable to an ex-Christian who fleeces ex-Christians. I am an ex-Christian and I haven't asked a dime of any ex-Christian yet.
Christian televangelists use guilt and vague promises of blessings from God to cajole Christians into handing over their hard-earned cash.
Unlike those crooked Christian televangelists, I don't ask ex-Christians for anything, and I don't make stupid promises. In all sincerity this entire article is nothing more than illustrative of how asinine is the command to "give to all who ask." How about: Resist not evil? Do you follow that? Do you think it was wrong for the Patriots to resist England in during the American Revolution? Are those who fight for freedom anywhere around the world committing sin by resisting evil?
Resist not evil! Give to all who ask!
Think about it!
Now, if I asked you for many more dollars than ten, would you meekly cough them up? If not, why not?
Matthew L. Bergen
Thanks!
I am commanded to give only as I have the ability. As the sole provider for a family of 7, I do not have those resources.
Something you must understand about the scripture you are using. The key word is "asketh" or "ask". The literal meaning of that word is simply "to ask for one's self out of need".
Are you truly in need? If so, I'm obviously not able to meet your stated need by myself. However, I could find a network of people who could help me raise the funds.
I'm truly sorry that you have found yourself in financial hardship.
Truly yours,
Matthew L. Bergen
How about a hundred?
I feel sorry for your child.
"atheistmommy, I feel sorry for your child."
Why feel sorry for child who will undoubtedly be taught to think and reason for themselves? If anything, it should be commended. So why don't you spare us, and her, your bullshit apologetic pity. Thanks.
Since assuming you are a True Christian™, may I please have $10.00?
Hehehehehe, there were "zero" christians before CE, according to the bible as well, as there was no "Christ". So, it appears that there really wasn't a "necessity" for all of those previous thousands of years. Also, during the theoretical "christ's" lifetime, there were multiple sects of religion that had entirely different views of the "nature" of Jesus, hence, still "no true christians".
What necessitated christianity, was Constantine I's laws that were passed to establish "one" true religion, not out of "truth", but totally out of his own strategy to unite his empire, and it never happened, all the religious sects continued to wage war and battle with each other. To this day, the offshoots of the early eclectic christian movement still disagree vehemently with eachother.
For christianity to be the true religion, there has to be "one" objectively guided christian, and Phil, we know there is no such thing as a totally "objective" anyone, right. Thus, there is "no" true christian, who can point their finger at all of the other christian denominations/sects/orders/wards, etc., and state with total sincerity that there is "one" true christian belief. If you find that person there Phil, lets call that totally "objective" person "god", as that is the definition of god, no? A totally perfect, and objective entity.
The day we get a "true" christian, is the day we no longer have to worry about christians being bigotted, amazing how that works out, isn't it.
But regarding the $10... I'm supposed to just give you whatever you ask? What if you asked for something that was bad for you? Hey, you know, isn't money the root of all evil? Yeah... I bet you have a nasty drug habit don't you? Hmmm... can I sent food stamps? :-) Just jokes.
Sure you might be able to say something about revealing the 'truth' or something. But is that it? Or are you upset that you haven't had a good 'christian experience' and want to wreck it for everyone else. I just want to see why you don't just let people continue being 'ignorant' to what they believe?
(please don't mock me if thats a silly question, this thread contains a lot of harsh comments which just proves how passionate everyone is about the subject...i just wanna know why)
I don't mean to be rude, but didn't you read the opening essay? The words of your Lord are plain. You can look up the verses yourself in your own Bible or here, if you'd rather do it online.
As for your other questions, I assume they're rhetorical.
To Mr/Mrs. Ellipsis (...),
"...Or are you upset that you haven't had a good 'christian experience' and want to wreck it for everyone else. I just want to see why you don't just let people continue being 'ignorant' to what they believe?"
Nobody here wants to "wreck" anything for anyone else. This site exists as a venue for ex-Christians. We do not evangelize anyone, or try to force anyone to believe as we do. Christians who come here may nurse a persecution complex, thinking we're out to "wreck" their lives or beliefs, but they came to us, not the other way 'round.
People can remain ignorant if they choose. Again, this site just exists. If people of faith come across it and are offended, they can just move on. The Internet is big enough for all stripes.
WB Dave may have a different take, but that's how I see things.
Again, you really need to read your bible. Those who sacrificed as "god" commanded, did so to "El", the god of the Old Testament. Pre-CE, there was no "Christi", nor is the "one" word in the "entire" Old Testament that is labelled "Christ". There were "no" christians CE, Phil, but there were Jews, who worshipped their god "El".
Paul enters the story in the New Testament, stating that a Christ was born, and that the Jews no longer had to follow their Old Testament laws for the most part. The Jews, and anyone else who believed in Paul's words, became Pauline Christians, not just "Christians". Thus, there is "no" one true christian, if you want to delve into Paul's life based on biblical account, you're going to find him to be far less than the perfectly objective person that could create the "one" true religion.
According to tradition, he murdered those who followed a christ in his later years. He was jailed in Rome, for committing unlawful acts, and then he couldn't keep Jewish law, because it was too ascetic for him.
There was no Christ's ultimate sacrifice of himself, either. Depending on your belief, God and Jesus are one in the same, at least by "some" christians, not all. This means, Jesus sacrificed himself to "himself", so that he could save humanity, from the punishment that "he" imposes on humanity. If Jesus is "god", why the need to self-sacrifice, he could have just changed the universe to make it "right", instead, humanity is still "sin" ridden according to many different christian denominations, thus, sinful humanity is "exactly" what Jesus/god wanted, and hell still exists. So, god/jesus obviously knew that their plan to save humanity, wouldn't work, even though they are "gods". These gods seem to be two stooges, I suppose you could throw El, and satan in there and call them the three stooges; Satan, El, YHWH/Jesus.
One persons' ignorance is fine, if they can keep it to themselves. However, only a dunce would believe that a person can live their life, without "ever" influencing others around them. An ignorant person, who can't logically control their mind, is prone to do things that negatively effect others in society. The majority of serial killers, accross the "world", have had religious backgrounds, the percentage last time I researched it had religiously influenced serial killers greater than 99%.
Personally, I don't feel the need to nurture that type behavior. Now, I suppose you could say that these serial killers did not follow their religious beliefs, and they were hypocrites, but, then, so are the majority of religious people. Well, they contend they aren't hypocrites, because they were already born to make mistakes, they just can't help themselves, and should be forgiven, right.
@ one true christian - Regarding God changing the universe to make everything peachy without any bloody sacrifice: God is just -- meaning he always acts in accordance with what is right that he is himself the final standard of what is right. To do as you say and 'make everything right' would be to go against himself.
were you talking to me? if not it doesnt matter because yes my brain does hurt...
Sure, I see what you're saying. Satan is the god YHWH and all names are truly meaningless in a supernatural sense because no one can assign attributes to any "One" god, or supernatural entity. Thanks for clearing that up, perhaps, you should talk to some Roman Catholic priests in the Levant area, who are in the habit of killing people during their exorcisms, because they can't tell which "supernatural" entity is dwelling in a persons' body at any given moment.
And, if you don't like the results of your mind experiment, then perhaps, then perhaps you are going to suggest there "is" a way to discern between two supernatural entities. When you get that answer, by all means, use it to distinguish between the god El, and Yahweh. I mean, by basic reading, I see that entirely different attributes were projected onto these two gods, and they were "made" or "created" by mankind to explain specific events in ones' life, and to establish a "supreme" god, who loved only "one" tribe of people, etc. The northern tribe gets weak, and the southern tribe takes over, makes sense to me.
Lastly, there is the "faith" aspect to the whole supernatural realm. You, "trusted" another person, when they told you that the supernatural realm exists, even though, a person can never really know the attributes of the supernatural realm, while living in this natural existence. After accepting this persons'/groups testimony, you began to feel "confident" about your "faith" (belief in a supernatural entity). I don't know currently, the level of "confidence" you ascribe to your belief in the supernatural, but its enough for you to suggest a "god" does exist. Your confidence is based on another persons' testimony. All religion follows this premise, at least, from "all" the religious research I have ever done.
Even if a person were to have a moment they had never experienced, if they sought an answer from many religious people, they of course, would chalk the experience up to a "god", their "god" to be precise.
No, trust builds confidence, and confidence builds belief. When you suggest that everyone has some level of "faith", you mean to suggest that everyone has "trust" in something. True, however, I trust "myself" first, and I have yet to see any supernatural attributes. You, trusted someone else, and accepted their supernatural explanations. However, if you go back to who told that person, and who told that person, all the way back to the beginning of Constantine I's reign.
"The First Council of Nicaea in 325 debated the terms homoousios and homoiousios. The word homoousios means "same substance", whereas the word homoiousios means "similar substance". The council affirmed the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Godhead) are of the homoousious (same substance). This is the source of the English idiom "differ not by one iota." Note that the words homoousios and homoiousios differ only by one 'i' (or the Greek letter iota). Thus, to say two things differ not one iota, is to say that they are the same substance.
The Chalcedonian Creed of 451 stated God is one ousia yet three hypostases.
Saint Gregory Palamas was an Eastern Orthodox saint and teacher of the uncreated energies and their relationship to the essence or ousia of the godhead. What is important is that the energies lay outside of the godhead. Gregory Palamas had also a very different history in his teachings which state that the uncreated energies is actually energies like Truth, Love, Justice. This is incontrast to the Neoplatonism of the source or uncreated energy."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ousia
So, Phil, your trust is unfounded from my perspective. There was no one at the point of origin, during these debates that held enough information to build my confidence, so that I may have believed. Again, Constantine I, forced a deliberation on the issue through his promotion of the Nicene Creed vote.
"The Nicene Creed, which is a classic formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity, uses "homoousios" (Greek: of the same essence) of the relation of the Son's relationship with the Father. This word differs from that used by non-trinitarians of the time, "homoiousios" (Greek: of similar essence), by a single Greek letter, "one iota", a fact proverbially used to speak of deep divisions, especially in theology, expressed by seemingly small verbal differences."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
You can suggest "what's in a name", but its a little deeper than that, isn't it. Do you believe all gods are of the same substance (albeit, there is "no way" to test that theory, hence all the voting), or do you believe gods have different substance?
It appears, that there is "more" than just a name. Gods were created based on human "need", and the human condition of that era. Not everyone had the same needs or purpose, there Phil. Thus, your god is different because its purpose is to fill "your" need. In order for you to suggest another persons' god is the same, is for you to suggest, that "everyone" should have the exact same "need(s)", and your view of a god, would remain with the same purpose.
There are over 4,932 gods the last time I looked at my book on mythology, each of them filling specific needs; fertility gods, farming gods, rain gods, fire gods, supreme gods, creator gods, etc., etc. The only thing common there Phil, is the human condition, and the fact that people have "needs", no matter what the name. But each persons' god, is truly different, as it would be pompous and ignorant to suggest that everyones' needs are or should be "exactly" the same.
So, what have we learned. Supernatuarl gods, can not be described using material attributes such as "substance", as no one lives in a supernatural realm, and... its arrogant to suggest that the ideal of a god should be the exact same for everyone, as that implies everyone should have the exact same needful purposes. Hence, the "different" names used, to describe different "needs". Phil, you would have to bring everyone together under the same exact belief system, and tell everyone, they have the exact same needs, kinda' like Constantine I did.
Many religions do assert that their "god" is the one and only true god, that's not me Phil, that's religion. I understand the social needs of humanity, to a great extent, and although I know its absurd to even discuss "supernatural" gods, while standing in this "natural" universe, as if we are in two places at the same time (perhaps superposited), I am willing to concede a personal "god" ideal, as a symbol for a persons' needs/desires.
My needs and desires are not the same as yours Phil, and yours are not the same as anyone elses. To end, your needs change, and your level of knowledge changes, and over time, the personality of your "personal" god changes as well. I suppose what I suggest, is that there are "gods" Phil, but they are personally subjective and based on "Natural" needs. There is no such thing as a supernatural god, its absurd to talk about it, or speculate on how one supernatural entity, is the same, or different. Enjoy your god, it fills your need, whatever your need, but is subjectively known by you, and no one else. Forcing a god onto an entire Empire didn't work, learn from history - the human condition prevents one "god" from being thrown up as a fix-all, we are subjectively laden creatures.
The object I rely on to fill my needs Phil, is "me". I don't assign god labels to Natural phenomenon either - if something is unknown, that's fine, it doesn't make me feel any better putting a personality onto the unknown, so that I can feel more comfortable - its still "unknown". I have a choice, I can continue to search for Natural answers, or... assign supernatural cause, and never hope to find an answer, such is what religious leaders do, in order to keep people in a state of "fear" - fear the unknown. I don't fear the unknown, I intellectually embrace the unknown - it provides challenge, mystery, and even beauty, some would even call elegant.
Oh, before I go, can you explain why in the bible, El was described as a bull-calf, and Yahweh had "no" description, and is symbolized by an alter with an "empty" seat/chair. Hmmmmm... I wonder if "El" was the same golden calf (bull-calf), being worshipped when Moses returned from Mt. Sinai with the ten commandments, uh, yeah, and he called it idolotry. Thus, "NOT" the same god as YHWH. ciao
If I'm the one true christian, then what I say is gospel, right. And, you need to get a urinalysis test, did you read what you wrote?
Phil: "To do as you say and 'make everything right' would be to go against himself."
So; you suggest in order for your god not to contradict himself, he needed to make sure everything wasn't peachy. Got it, so your god created the universe deliberately to be a miserable state of affair, and according to the bible, the majority of people are headed for hell, and there is nothing we can do about that either.
Not unless you were the person who said "I feel sorry for your kids."
What? Are you serious?? You're not using your brain here - apply that same logic to any other "holy Book', and what do you have? The same defence for ANY religion or world view. Sorry - that's a pretty stupid reason to believe anything at all. Ask yourself 'What if I'M wrong?' What then? Who's hell are you going to roast in now???
>>If I'm wrong then I missed out on "the fun stuff" as the world would call it because I was doing my human best to keep God's commandments.
You wouldn't know God's supposed commandments if they bit you on your arse. List them for me please...
As for missing out in the fun things in life, gimme a friggin' break. Are you so ignorant and self absorbed that you think that those on this side of the fence are the only 'having fun' because we're partaking in what you might consider 'sinful' living?? You can't be for real. Again, please demonstrate that. If 'having fun' means 'living life the best we can', then hey - I'm PROUD to be a 'sinner'! Haha!
>>If you're wrong..... that's an eternity I wouldn't want to take a chance with.
Fine - then there's us, who would never go back to being the brainwashed ignoramusses we used to be. Take your bible and your stupid assinine reasoning and eat them.
I think I'll burn a bible tonight. Again...
-Wez.
To the people who do not believe the Bible to be absolute truth... What if you're wrong? If I'm wrong then I missed out on "the fun stuff" as the world would call it because I was doing my human best to keep God's commandments. If you're wrong..... that's an eternity I wouldn't want to take a chance with.
Once again, I see another reference to the "Pascal Wager," which, for those NOT familiar, states: If you believe in god:
1. If god(1) exists, you go to heaven (2) after you die;
2. If god doesn't exist, you lived a good life(3) and lose nothing(4) upon death.
If you don't believe in god:
1. If god exists, you go to hell(2) after you die;
2. If god doesn't exist, you lose nothing upon death.
Problems:
1. The asumption in (1) is that the undefined "god" is the christian god, and this therefore translates to: if the xian god exists or doesn't exist, then [...the rest of the wager]. This is a classic FALSE dichotomy, since there are multiple gods and religions from which to choose and there are infinite "possible" or hypothetical gods. Add to this the infinite atheistic possibilities. Therefore, the assumption that belief in the xian god and not others is rational is unjustified.
2. The assumption in (2) is related to (3) in that it's referring only to the xian mythology and its version of an afterlife. As with (1), there are multiple, established, different religions and infinite "possible" or hypothetical afterlives with just as much evidential weight as the xian one. Therefore, the assumption of the xian life ONLY is unjustified. This includes an afterlife in which the rules are opposite; where the unbelieving go to an eternity of bliss while the xians burn in an eternal hell!:-)
3. I disagree with (3) because being a xian does NOT equal a happy nor a moral life, necessarily.
4. I disagree with (4) because I CERTAINLY would lose things by converting "just in case" there's a nasty afterlife waiting for me. As to WHAT I would lose, it would include: self-respect, free time, wealth and various other things denied by adherence to dogma which I won't go into. There could be multiple losses for other people, too. For instance, if I rebuked evolution and instead of learning evolutionary biology I were to join a monastery, the cure for cancer that I may have discovered would either NOT be discovered altogether or be delayed.
5. There's no evidence atheists don't go on to "something better" after death, no more than theists, anyway. Atheists don't (usually) believe in afterlives, but this is just another part of the false dilemma outlined above. Buddhists, for example, may not believe in a god, and even less likely, the xian god and believe in reincarnation.
6. Fear of punishment/lust for rewards are NOT logically justified reasons to mentally accept a premise. It's merely a threat or a bribe. It would be like saying: "Join Al Qaeda so you and your family won't be killed by them and you get an eternally pleasant afterlife with 72 virgins! You have nothing to lose!"
7. The character of god, or ANY afterlife mechanism, is unknown. if there is a god, he/she/it will likely be able to tell who are true believers and who felt too threatened to "not take the chance of disbelieving."
To make a long post EVEN longer (LOL), Pascal's wager can be summed up thusly: If there was a lottery with a 1 in infinity chance of winning, would you bet your life savings on it?
I often hope that the use of pascal's wager, like the mythos of xianity, will go the way of zeus...just a li'l dream of mine...*sigh* ;-)
Some of these people are just frightening, and I have a difficult time believing that any of those who claim to have previously been an atheist, really were EVER atheists. Seekers. That's what they are. They must have SOME reason that they're here, and since this supposedly wonderful and loving god cares enough to kill his son, after having PUNISHED so many people, commanding his own people to KILL for him (all the while having that "Thou shalt not kill" law around)... it's all just absurd.
I actually stopped wasting my time replying to those religious fanatics. They won't get it because they choose to not use reason. Let them be stupid by choice. But only provided that their choices don't infringe upon my U.S.-given rights.
(Should we be scared?)
Conflicts with the final statement.
Mike then states, "This site does fall under spreading false doctrine, and to rightly divide the Word and to compare scripture with scripture, it seems to me that this site would be a wrong thing to give any help to."
Seems to be an internal conflict there Mike, care to untangle your own words?
"However, I do know the Bible and when I was 14 I did accept Jesus as my Messiah, and I also pastor a Non-Denominational Church."
So, then, we should expect that you are well versed in theology, right?
"However, love dictates that you protect the innocent, many times by killing the guilty."
Okay, define guilty?
Exodus 31:15 "Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
Guilty, would be anyone breaking the sabbath, at the time these laws were enacted by God.
Jesus deliberately violates the law.
John 5:17 "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."
John 5:18 "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."
Mike, it appears you condone the murder of Jesus according to the protect the innocent, I mean, that's all the Jews were trying to do, protect their religion and themselves from false prophets.
Jesus, the false prophet.
Deuteronomy 13:2-5 "If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he give thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, of which he spoke unto thee saying: 'Let us go after other gods [including other ways and beliefs] which thou hast not known, and let us serve them', thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. After the Lord your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave."
Jesus, declaring himself equal with God, was blasphemy, an act worthy of death, of course, to "protect" the innocent, right Mike. So, Jesus should have been killed according to the law that was "in place" at the time, that said "false prophets" just like Jesus would appear.
And that "law", was never to be changed.
Deuteronomy 13:1 "All this which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."
Hey Mike, ever wonder why millions of people have denied christianity? They deny christianity based on your own "protect" the innocent, who followed the original laws, by killing the guilty - Jesus. In your own words, you would support the murder of any modern day person claiming to be "God" or have direct knowledge of "God", if they were in fact trying to abolish the entire christian religion. Right.
"2 John makes it plain to not wish anyone bearing false doctrine Godspeed."
And John, speaking on behalf of Jesus, has no weight, as Jesus was a false prophet, and deserved death, "to protect the innocent".
"That means don't help that person in his spreading of false doctrine."
False doctrine? The entire New Testament which founds christianity, was established by a "false prophet". Those "false" words were used to "supersede" the laws, established by "God", and "not" to ever be changed, per Deut.
"That means don't help that person in his spreading of false doctrine."
Do you tell your followers to "not" give you money because you are spreading the words of a false prophet?
If you choose to testify only according to the Old Testament, you are Jewish. If you choose to tesify only according to the New Testament, then you invalidate the very foundations of the Old Testament which built christianity, namely, the coming of a messiah.
If you choose to accept both the Old and New equally, you become a literary hypocrite, as the two conflict and are irreconcilable, by anyone with a sixth grade education.
"Jesus was referring to people doing evil things and that we aren't supposed to be vengeful."
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Per John, Jesus calls all Jews, liars, to include their own doctrine. Yet, Jesus was the fulfillment of that same Jewish Old Testament doctrine. So, the Jews are liars, "except", when using their doctrine to support the New Testament.
New Testament:
Romans 1:32 "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
If Jesus' message was to not push people to engage in vengence, what does "worthy of death", mean. That is a physical description of death, not a spiritual. As, in the spiritual realm, it is already understood that god will have his vengence.
John 9:39 "And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world."
"You lend and don't expect to get back when someone has a need as a testimony and just as a testimony."
Lend, seems to connote savings bank. Who controls the money in this bank? Who determines priority and necessity of needs? Where should faith be placed when looking to invest into a good foundation?
A) The Old Testament is the only "correct" doctrine. A Jewish Rabbi.
B) The New Testament is the only "correct" doctrine. A Christian Preacher who either has less than a sixth grade education, or one who realizes the irreconcilable chasm between the old and new testaments, but is willing to push a lie, regardless.
C) Both testaments, are the correct doctrine. A messianic rabbi or christian preacher, who both have less than a sixth grade education, or both know the conflict between the two, and yet, are able to ignore the obvious.
If one requires someone who is "honest", "educated", and capable of having some "attention to detail", then, B, and C, are clearly loosers, hands down, for giving tithe or faith offerings to.
It appears "A", is the only clear choice. Unless those who give their money, are not educated enough to know how to invest wisely. So, Mike, are you a Jewish Rabbi? No, then, it would be hypocritical or contradictory for you to suggest that "you" should be able to receive a faith offering, and deny "all" others who ask for an offering based on the same scripture.
I suppose if a Jewish Rabbi comes online, they can at least make a denial based on integrity of the "Word". However, Rabinical Jews don't consider themselves Christians. Thus, "No True Christians", is the title for this thread, not "No True Jews".
Lets accept that you have a right to your belief, no matter how many see it as hypocritical at best or deliberately deceiving at most.
The Word states;
Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
Romans 12:20 "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head."
Romans 12:21 "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
Romans says, give the enemy what they require, in time of need.
And, in case you forgot to read the other passages provided by the WM, lets repost.
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
"This site does fall under spreading false doctrine, and to rightly divide the Word and to compare scripture with scripture, it seems to me that this site would be a wrong thing to give any help to."
So, according to "your" personal belief, that is not "biblically" supported, you feel that "you" shouldn't give. You have elevated yourself above scripture, and made yourself "god".
So, if you are god, well, then, I suppose you get to choose how you guide people, and where to tell them to put their money, right.
If you are not god, then, follow scripture, and give to those in need, even if the enemy.
Further, if one chooses a path such as yours, "not biblically", to pick a wise investment, then, lets recap why no one should give to a christian leader, period.
A) Ignorance. Christian leaders who don't know their own scripture.
B) Dishonesty. Christian leaders who know the scripture, but deliberately choose to ignore and evade scriptural conflicts openly in sermon, especially the conflict of the unfulfilled Old Testament prophesies.
C) Fraud. Christian leaders who know the scripture, refuse to teach the truth of the conflict, yet, preach the parts of the bible that require people to "give" money, in order to be saved by works and deeds. Somehow, justifying in their mind, that they can do "better" with the money than those who provide that money.
Mike, why don't you build a case that supports the need to give money to church, or religious leaders. Uh, let us know what scripture you use, or if its just your opinion/creative interpretation of the Word, and why anyone should give to "your" cause/needs, and not anothers'.
By comparing scripture with scripture, we've now made Jesus say, "Love your CHRISTIAN neighbor as yourself, and to hell with everyone else."
The "comparing scripture with scripture" theory is a convenient way to use the vast amount of contradictory statements in the various books of the Bible to avoid obeying anything it says.
Please show me the verse that says, "When thou findest a command of mine, and that command maketh thee nervous, remember to find words in another book of the Bible, written by another man, at another time and place, for another situation. And if thou findest something in that other book of the Bible that could be used to modifeth or cancel my command, then thou shalt avoid my command altogether. He that does this thing shall be guiltless."
Besides, you do know that the books of the New Testament were put together between one binding hundreds of years after Jesus was dust, don't you? Up till then, no one had a New Testament! I wonder what the poor people who actually listened to Jesus' sermon, and heard him say "give to everyone who asks," would have thought about the neat way you, a preacher, are disobeying that simple command and teaching others to do so by appealing to a work that many scholars consider spurious, written by some anonymous author, at least 60 years after Jesus preached his sermon? Do you really think the context of why 2 John exists has anything to do with giving to everyone who asks?
Final analysis: Don't bid me Godspeed and do curse me. Since neither blessing nor cursing absolves you from the obligation to obey Jesus' simple command to give to everyone who asks, may I please have $10.00?
Thanks
Goldie has discovered a Greek slang word, and it has become absolutely ecstatic over using it.
Malaka-man, I agree with you.
Anony scholar, riddle me this: From which list of ten commandments did the writer of Mark copy: Do not defraud? Please give me the reference to that commandment in either Exodus or Deut.
Is this error the writer's error, or was it Jesus that didn't know the commandments?
Thanks.
BWHAHA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAA!!!!
Sorry, Strolbel is ill judged apologetic for believers only...
Hmm....
I don't think so.
Neither did the writer of Luke who decided to re-write that section in her own "Gospel": Luke 18:20. She omitted the "Do not defraud" in her list.
Interesting, no?
Jesus was supposedly quoting the Ten Commandments. "Do not defraud" is not one of the Ten Commandments, that's all. Apparently either Jesus, or the author of Mark, was a bit fuzzy on the Ten Commandments.
No one knows who wrote any of the Gospels. The authors of those books are like you, anonymous. Mark was written first, a generation after Jesus was dead. Matthew and Luke are revisions of Mark. Nearly every verse of Mark is repeated in Matthew and Luke, even down to the exact same sentences in some cases. In other cases where, Mark was deficient, the writers of the new and improved gospels added to or deleted from Mark.
For a fascinating study on the subject, go to the library and check out: Who Wrote the Gospels?. For short article on this topic: click here.
You said: "the Bible instructs us to avoid those whom enjoy arguing and nitpicking and to not partake in these events as well."
Well, that's one way to shut down any discussion and a great way to tightly close the eyes of reason when confronted with evidence contradicting your presupposition.
And you fail to cite the numerous differences in all of the gospels which would prove that they in fact are not copies of one another. And did we not just discuss how the gospels vary in differences? Are you changing your mind now? And I will not argue for the sake of argument, I will debate and discuss to help myself learn as much more as I can as well as to help you learn much more than you can.
That's the honest truth.
Do you believe the stories in Homer really happened? As far as believing in the miracles in Homer goes, by all means, throw that belief out. It's mythology!. Just like the Bible!
web
Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally. Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of Jesus. The accounts of such men need to be considered at least seriously.
You have been told these men wrote the Gospels. You have been deceived. It is NOT clear who wrote any of it. In fact, it is doubted by nearly all modern experts on ancient documents.
Besides, Peter was not the leading disciple. Jesus' brother James took over the Jerusalem church once his brother died.
This is not a debate site. It is a site for the encouragement of ex-Christians. Read the disclaimer. Shit! Read anything besides your apologetic masters! READ MAN, READ!!!
Misrepresenting yourself is lying. You should have just admitted you were posting others' works and be done with it.
And refusing to identify yourself a little better than anonymous is cowardly.
You are everything a "true Christian™" can be proud of. Thank you for the help in showing the foolishness of Christianity.
First, you are not in the position to make demands of anyone here. Second, you have demonstrated through the posts following this that you are the one who needs to go back to school.
Your knowledge of the history of the Bible, it's authorship, methods for working with ancient texts (textual criticism), and perhaps even content is on such a juvenile level that my 9-year-old daughter could refute your arguments.
Stop parroting second-rate apologists. It wastes all of our time.
Anyone who is literate, knows that the authors who need to be taken seriously are the Old Testament authors, who in fact, "rejected" the New Testament, and Jesus as their Messiah. An "honest", and "serious" student of the christian religion, would never get past the Old Testament, because if Jesus was the Messiah prophesied per the "Christian" god, then Jesus would have brought in the New Kingdom to the Jews, and obviously, that didn't happen, thus, Jesus was a fraud as the Jewish Messiah. Christians have to denounce the very roots of their own religion, in order to make sense of their own warped salvation plan.
Irrelevant to the topic.
"You doubt and doubt yourself so much that you do not believe anything."
I believe my self is the ultimate truth, as, without myself, I can't even think or experience, and if I don't have that, I have no knowledge of anything, and nothing matters, right.
"I haev been there and back. OCD is a disorder and not normal."
Actually, OCD is normal, based on the DSM-IV, if within normal non-debilitative limits. If you are a psychiatrist, I would like your name, and certification program, so that I may better understand your qualification on your personal diagnosis.
"Choose to believe only what you see if you please but remember that your eyes can deceive you."
I know, every time I pick up the bible, I see what appears to be deception throughout if presented as a literal non-contradictory book.
"Faith is what it is, belief in the unknown, and I have found that I am a ten times better person and happier and very patient when my faith is high."
So, when you are high, your faith is strong... makes sense to me.
"You say it is psychological and it might be. But how did the human mind come about?"
Check out biological evolution.
"What causes us to think."
Cross sectioning of synaptic fibers, within a nexus between two neural hemishperes. Check out human physiology.
"Why are we here?"
Check out linguistics, communication, and physics, without those, you wouldn't be able to ask the retarded question, so, its apparent that "meaning" is dependent on "knowledge", and you apparently are lacking in much of these areas you have questions within.
"What is the reason for anything?"
See the previous answer.
"Do you think there is no reason?"
See previous answer.
"Well if so then enjoy that depressing thought."
Those who know the answers, aren't depressed, only those who refuse to become educated, and stand on the only meaning they can find... based on the extremely myopic and limited information available to them. Kind of like searching for a meaning, in a store, with only one "meaning" product, that's religion. Take it or leave it, if you attempt to leave it, you will be threatened with hell.
"Think alot about why things are the way they are. Why is our sun the perfect direction from us to give us livable heat and coolness?"
You say, the "sun" is the perfect distance from the earth, and provides us livable heat and coolness? Why don't you go camping on the polar ice-caps, I'd dare say, you would die before the day ends. Its not the environment that allows humanity to survive, its humanities' ability to adapt to an ever-changing environment that is remarkable, don't sell out humanity's adaptation, in favor of some mediocre argument on the perfect solar system, its childish.
"Where did all this matter come from?"
What does "matter" have to do with meaning in your "life"? Why?
"How did it get wherever it is?"
What does the "location" of mater have to do with meaning in your "life"? Why?
"Who made it?
Why do you believe a "who" made the matter? What makes you believe matter was "made"? Where did you get these "questions" from?
"Answer me please? Will you help me out?"
Actually, the only one who can help you out, is you. You have to become educated, and once that happens, you will have more options in your obviously limited life to make choices from, until then, you don't have enough information to ask quality questions and its blazingly apparent. You have a one line answer, for every question in your life, if one were comparing meaning in life, its apparent your life has little "variety", in such a vast and changing Universe.
Jesus provides the perfect example therefore a true Christian would not ask for the ten dollars.
Jesus COMMANDS YOU to give to EVERYONE who asks.
So, may I please have ten dollars?
Anyway, thanks for illustrating that direct commands from your god-man are frequently re-interpreted by believers so as to avoid actually obeying those commands.
Since you won't obey and give a lousy ten bucks, give yourself a nice big self-congratulatory pat on the back.
yo dont know anything about being a christian or being a "true" christian whatever that may be.
may god help you all on judgment day when you face the fiery depth of hell.
and this whole website is BS and your all going to hell.
"yo dont know anything about being a christian or being a "true" christian whatever that may be."
Whatever that may be???
...ironic, ain't it, yo? LMAO!
Thanks, Jessica! Keep up the good work, and kiss God's ass for me!
As you are probably well aware, a true Christians life is a journey that goes from babe to maturity and many babes in Christ err in their interpretation of God's word.
So what you're saying is that Christians don't actually have to obey their Lord in order to get into heaven, right?
What do Christians need the Bible for again?
Thanks.
From babe to maturity? No, I'm sorry...there ARE no "Christian infants". You cannot be a "True" Christian until you're at LEAST old enough to hear, speak, and understand one of the human languages..... 'else, you're brain cannot be washed properly.
Either way, sign me up. I can't resist a bargain like that.
I tried TM. It cost me $430. The place was nice and the food was good but some of the other guests were a bit loopy.
Then I tried Buddhism. That was great. Economical and terrific food. At that point I decided to go a bit more up-market to Zen which was truly excellent. Those people know how to put a garden together or what, eh? I especially loved the low-fat menu and the scintillating mind-game activities the recreation co-ordinators set up.
Judaism - well, I couldn't stay long. It was almost as expensive as US Evangelism although the music was a lot less "docile" and that was nice. Also the "judaists" were terrific networkers and I managed to get across Judaism through Hinduism and Zoroastrianism really cheaply after I was put on to the right people. Terrific trip. I have the photos around here somewhere...
But TRUE christianity for ten bucks!! Too good to refuse...
However, this plea has been here for over four years, and only a handful have responded as commanded by their God.
Perhaps I should rename the article to "Only Six True Christians."
Oh well. I guess my point was made.
Rev. Pasha
I'd also be willing to bet it was money that you conned out of your mindless sheep that you deceived and promised them everlasting life in exchange for their hard earned money.
Once a fool always a fool! Go away part from me you thief in the grass, saith the lard!!!!
Obeying Jesus's order to give to everyone who asks, is assinine. Obviously, that wasn't a very well thought out divine command.
Good job.
Oh well.
Anyway, you asked if there was any hope at all, or is it all pointless?
I'm guessing you are trying to suggest that life without your religion is pointless? Is that it? Because if it is, that's an outrageous statement.
My life is filled with hope and promise. I don't need the threat of an angry god to give my life meaning. I don't need threats of eternal torture in a place built by a demented, sadistic deity to find hope.
Here's the hope of Christianity: Convince a person that unimaginable horror awaits them after death, and then get them to sell their life in slavish religiosity to placate the fear.
We are all mortal. We all die. That's life on planet Earth.
People spend their lives striving to avoid pain and suffering. Since death is the absence of all pain and suffering, death is nothing to fear. However, a life wasted in mindless servitude to a false god, now that is something to fear. That is true hopelessness.
And that's why there are no true Christians. Because even Christians know the things Jesus said just don't make good sense.
For one moment forget "Christians" and go to the source of the underlying motivation for your request, for one moment ask yourself and all of us...Is there a true Christ? Is there that chance that there is a Christ, there is a love beyond our human capacity, a love that loves us beyond our hatred and anger? For everyone of us who are reading this, that is what we all really want to know. For deep inside I really don't care if there are any people who would meet the critical eyes of judgement as to whether or not I am a Christian. For I already know this one thing...I am a sinner. So it does not come as any shock to me that I am selfish and self motivated. Doing wrong to others. Preaching and yet not doing what I preach. I already know all these things. That is why I hope. That is my faith. That there is a Christ, the son of the living God and by grace I am saved. So I ask again...What if there were none of what you would deem "true christians", what if noone sends you a ten spot... The questions about Christians will be answered, for me it was answered long ago. I already knew that I was selfish and have a selfish nature, I already knew that no matter how I tried to live up to religion and all it's laws I would never be able to. That was my despair. So I read the word of God and "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" and hope dawned in my heart. No...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and do this and that. I had to do nothing but believe. Nothing. Slavery? No, freedom to try and freedom to fail and freedom to believe I am forgiven for my failures. Freedom to know I AM A SINNER, freedom to believe I AM A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE. What grace do you offer those who read this? We all know we are going to die and we all know life is painful. Yet the question of Christ is the same. Is there a Christ, the son of the living God, who died and gave his life, battled death, rose again, and loves us beyond religion, beyond sin, beyond life? Tell me what is the hope and promise of your life?
What is sin? Please define it in your understanding.
What is grace? Please define that, too, in your own words.
Finally, define what you mean by "hope?"
The reason I ask for your definitions is because it is impossible to discuss these topics without a common understanding of what the words actually mean to the people using them.
Now, it's good that you feel forgiven for your failures, whatever that means, exactly, but I feel pretty good about my life too. And I don't believe in a god. I don't see your point here.
You are right that people are selfish. That's called a survival instinct. And guess what! Christianity panders to that selfishness! People don't want to die. They selfishly want to survive, and Christianity makes a false promise of eternal life beyond the grave. It promises streets paved with gold. It promises many things that are impossible to document as being actually true.
Picture this: While many of your loved ones writhe in horrific agony in eternal torture, the Elect will live forever in selfish bliss.
Do you really think most Christians lavish their hard-earned cash into religious coffers out of philanthropic generosity? I don’t think so. I think most Christian giving is spurred on by either a guilt-laced sermon or the belief that by giving, they are laying up treasures in heaven. It’s nothing more than responding to the “avoidance of pain and promise of pleasure” trick. Either way, it's just selfishness being played out.
Now, something really unselfish to do, might be to give to all who ask, regardless of any hope of avoiding something painful or of gaining any eternal advantage.
Yes, people are selfish, and Christianity plays right into that reality.
You assume I am attempting to direct people into some sort of system hope finding? Again, I still need to know what you mean by hope. I also wonder why you feel so hopeless. I think life is full of promise. Life is fun. Feeling that life is somehow hopeless, or that people need religion to fill their lives, well, that can’t be a pleasant feeling. My condolences to you.
Anyway, pointing people in one direction, or telling them what to think about everything is not what this site is about. That’s what Christianity is about – telling people what to think. This site is not about directing people to an alternative religion, philosophy, or whatever. This site is about helping people find other people who have realized, or are coming to realize, that Christianity is bunk. Escaping a mind-control cult is difficult and painful. It’s good to know you’re not alone.
Why don't you read the site disclaimer and my testimony? The links to those two articles are on every single page. That would answer many of your questions.
....is there evidence beyond your presuppostional biblio-babble?
Grace. Grace is given and not earned. Grace is free, cannot be bought or sold, is undeserved. Grace is what I recieved from Christ after I tried religion.
You see I tried religion. I found all of the things that have made you so angry and possibly filled you with such contempt that you needed an outlet for your anger and so created this website. If that is not the case than forgive my presumption please.
I have heard and seen the TV evangelists with their "give and it will be given unto you" schemes. I too was sickened and disillusioned. I have seen their "toll-free" numbers to recieve donations and their "pay" numbers for prayer requests. I attended church and heard the "come as you are" and then was told...not to wear shorts, not to wear jeans, not to smoke, not to dance, not to drink, etc...and so on. I have heard the Hell fire sermons and I have seen the hate crimes against abortion centers and homosexuals. I have been accosted by the church members outside of Walmart wanting to sell me something so their kids could go to camp and I too have thought, "if your God is so great, what are you asking me for money for...ask you God, surely he has five dollars." I have thought many times that "those Christians" got it all backwards...they are suppose to give to the world, not stand as beggers with their hands out all the time. I have read the old testament and wondered of a God who would bring war and suffering.
So you see, you and I are not so different. We both searched for answers and arrived at different conclusions.
As for me, I arrived choosing to hope that there is a point and a purpose to my life beyond this moment and the pleasure of the moment. I wanted to choose a life that fills me with the hope that there is a goodness and a love. To me life seems very pointless without love. So I pressed on, on beyond the religion, beyond the hypocrisy, beyond the disillusionment, beyond the anger and bitterness, beyond CHISTIANS. Beyond people. People fail. Every single one of us. No person can bring salvation to me. I CHOSE to believe in Christ, the son of the living God and in him I put my trust.
I came across your sight by accident and "a plea to true Christians" caught my eye. I believe that you knew it would. I believe that you want a chance to say to those of us who believe in Christ all the things that lay in your heart and eat away with at you with a deep bitterness. Perhaps you will believe me when I say, "I felt the same way", probably worse. Then I asked myself the question that I asked you...Forget the people, forget the do's and don'ts...all I want to know is...Is there a Christ?
Does it make sense? No. Is there any fact of his deity? No. Does it defy logic, education, reason? Yes. That is my definition of hope.
My reason for responding to you was simple...I wanted to know how you arrived at your journey with a different answer than I. Do I have a need to prove to you that my faith is right and yours is wrong. No. I am a nobody. A housewife with no education beyond high school, no glorious income, no title, nothing impressive. I am not a debater, I have no fancy words, or manipulative charisma, on the whole of things I am a speck. In this world and society, that makes me pretty much without value or worth. My hope is in Christ. For you see, I am nothing to the Christians or the non-Christians. Yet,when Christians say I am not worthy, Christ says I have worth to him. When the world says I have no value and no purpose, Christ says I do. And that is what all of us want. Whether we are rich or poor. Important or unknown. Smart and savy with words or uneducated. It is why you reached out with this website...each of us what to feel like we are not alone, each of us want to feel like we are heard and that what we have to say is important. Otherwise you and I would not be conversing back and forth.
That brings me back to what I believe is sin. Sin to me would not be sin to you. Sin for me is taking what I recieved freely (grace and acceptance) and yet not extending it to you. The grace of Christ came into my life and told me something my heart longed to hear. That my hurt, pain, life, love, and meaning were important to Christ.
That I was accepted as I am. Not by people, people can never do that. By Christ.
That is why I responded to your site. I do not wish to presuade you or change you. Perhaps it was the mystery of such different conclusions to what might possibly be the same journey. I wanted to know of your hope and your faith. Perhaps it is naive, but is it not true, that all of us believe in something?
Yet I have enjoyed talking with you. I enjoy your website and the encouragement you give all of us to speak on behalf of our faiths. It is a good thing and I hope it continues.
You have arrived at the conclusion that there is no God. I will offer you no debate. For if the word of God and the story of Christ's life and love does not convince you, well than who am I that I could say or do more than these?
I truly am not a very good debater. I have no facts, and although I do know scriptures, you also know them, probably more so than I, so it would do no good and profit no one for you and I to volley back and forth. So having asked my question and having recieved my answer, there seems little left for us to say. I have no wish to argue or debate.
If I have offended you, it was without intent. I encourage you to continue for it is without a doubt a constructive way for all of us to speak of our faiths.
I remained anonymous because that truly is what I am. My name matters little and would only be a name to you. Yet should we talk again sometime, I ask that you call me...Friend.
One more question for you to consider. Christianity teaches that all those who reject Christiany's plea and madate to believe, are threatened with eternal torment in a sadistic chamber of everlasting imprisonment.
Can you honestly say that in your short life you've committed sinful crimes of such magnitude that would justify an eternity of torment? If so, what exactly are those "sins" you've committed that justice would only be served by your eternal punishment?
Religion makes people feel good, feel signficant, feel loved. If it makes you feel good, then by all means, feel away. I left religion because feelings are secondary to truth and reality to me. Reality may not be as romantic, but I prefer reality, regardless.
I sincerely believed in Santa for the first five years of my life. It was great fantasy. But alas, it was a falsehood.
I would agree with your definition of sin. I do not practice any of those things you've mentioned. However, that is not the Christian definition of sin. In Christianity, sin is the breaking of the law of God. If you do any work on the Sabbath, you are a sinner, and will suffer the eternal consequences of your disobedience. Since your God commands you to give to all who ask of you, then your disobedience is a sin.
So again, I'll ask, may I please have ten dollars.
Your refusal to obey your favorite god either makes you a sinner, or an unbeliever. And in truth, you too are an unbeliever. You do not believe in any of the thousands of gods worshipped by people throughout history, except for one. I simply do not believe in that god either. I believe in one less god than you. In fact, the only reason I do not believe in that god, is exactly the same reason I do not believe in any of the other gods. When you figure out why you don't believe in any of those other gods, then you'll understand why someone like me rejects belief in your god.
I guess you're right. We are more alike than we know.
My flock as you call them do not support me. I enjoy a strong middle-class income as a manager and investor. And belittling God will not make me mad, God does not need us to defend Him.
Webmaster, I enjoy this site for laughs... thank you again.
Amazing how much Rev. Pasha knows what a gods' needs are, its almost like he's speaking on a deity's behalf with equal knowledge. Perhaps, Rev. Pasha has been god too long.
Judgement and justice are not mine to decide. I have a distorted veiw of both. I will give you an example...
There is a young child and every day and every night he suffers sexual, emotional, and physical abuse at the hands of his father. He crys but no one hears. He dies a little inside as each shread of his dignity and humanity is stripped away.
Later, another child crys, the same abuse, the same pain. This time someone hears. The abuser is brought to "justice". He is sentenced to prison and every one feels vindicated.
The abuser is the first child. The child no one heard. The child who spent all of his young life in a prison you and I can not imagine.
Was justice served?
Judgement and justice. I am not in the position to deliver either. So, in answer to your question, only a diety that has the entire picture, that knows the desire and motivation of my heart, that has the capacity for true justice and true love can decide that. This I know seems very wrong and very unfair to some. To me it is a comfort. To know I can trust and trust fully the Christ who loves me, that he will not be swayed by my crys of vengence or bitterness, but rather do according to the motives of others hearts.
Instead of fear, I now have peace. For you see, I have children and family I love, in their lives they will hurt people and do wrong to others, just as I do, if I relied on my sense of justice, then some time I may exact vengence on someone who has hurt me, that vengence would then become the standard of punishment and should one I love ever commit the same wrong...In condemning my adversary I have condemned them.
A Christ who brings judgement and justice does not bring me fear but peace.
Grace covers law. We cannot live by both. Law is a "do it yourself and fail" method. Grace is a "I cannot do it myself, I rely on your grace".
Law brings strife and self righteousness. Look at the churches. Can anyone even begin to name the different denominations? Each believing and each claiming they and they alone have the truth and the right way. Each acting arogantly, pointing fingers and condemning and judging others in matters they are not qualified to judge.
Grace brings peace. Grace says "I am not qualified to judge you", so I will forgive you. Grace says, "You have your ways and your battles, I have mine, they are different but may each of our methods and views have the result of peace."
Grace is not offended when someone holds a different belief and different view. Grace accepts when someone challenges their faith as an opportunity to give an account for their faith and faith is strenghtened.
Grace does not become better than others, but remembers always that it was grace and grace alone that helped them to meet the challenges and overcome those challenges.
Grace is not arrogant.
Have you ever met a reformed smoker? Most annoying. They believe that since they quit, everyone should quit. Not only should they quit, they should quit in exactly the way the reformed smoker quit.
Gone and forgotten are the days that they themselves were addicted to cigerettes. Gone and forgotten are the days when they bit every ones heads off and were consumed with their need for a cigerette.
For now they are stronger. They are better than those weak people who can't give up cigerettes.
This is why faith in a just Christ brings me peace. The justice of man is what brings me fear.
Let me be judged by one who loves me enough to give his most precious son in my stead...than by man.
When I look at some of the responses this website has brought it only validates my faith.
Those with titles of ministers, reverends, christians, non-believers and believers alike. I am amazed at some of the things people will say to others who do not share their belief. I am appalled at the things people say to you and try to stamp God's name on it. Amazed and appalled, but the one thing I am not...is shocked.
Yet you are right in saying, you and I are alike. For we are. We just have different viewpoints. Yet what we might agree upon could be greater than what we disagree upon. Yet I would never know these things if I set myself up as jury and judge.
You are also right in saying I AM a Sinner! For I am, have been and always will be. This one thing, I never want to forget.
For all the others who believe in Christ...I urge you to not forget. Were it not for grace, you would have no faith. Were it not for faith, you would have no grace.
To you, my friend and I call you friend because that it what I would like to believe we can be, I will say ...
Yes I am a sinner. Yet in faith, I believe I am a sinner saved by grace.
No, I do not believe in the other Gods, for I have worshipped and served them all and found no peace and no purpose.
Yet in saying I am an unbeliever, in that matter you have made an error...for I believe very much in Jesus Christ the son of the Living God and his love for me.
Again I encourage you for what you are doing with your website. It is a good thing.
I look forward to your reply and your request for my ten dollars.
Friend.
I do not read your website for laughs, I read it because I am interested in what the result of your search for one true Christian will bring you. I hope with all my heart that your search for one is answered. Yet I think perhaps you chose the wrong lure in your fishing expedition. The kind of fish you seek...will only bite if you lure them with a chance to love.
Just so you will know that your response has not angered me or annoyed me I want you to know this.
I live on a very limited and tight budget. My budget no longer will allow me the luxury of internet service, once this bill is paid, I am requesting it to be shut off. So if you should reply and I do not answer...I am not ignoring you, I just simply cannot read your site for I do not have it. This is why I encourage you...continue your search and may it be rewarded.
However, I will state this: For justice to be served, the punishment must fit the crime. This is a maxim that underlies the modern justice system.
No matter what "sin" a person might commit, it can only be a temporal "sin." In other words, we can only commit acts that are mortal, temporary, and non-eternal. I sincerely doubt you have committed anything worthy of an eternity of torture. Even the most heinous criminals, when caught, are not tortured for their crimes — not in civilized society. Criminals may earn the death penalty, but torture is deemed inhumane. How much more inhumane would be everlasting torture? To even consider torturing another human being is considered a crime, no matter what the person may be believed guilty of. Abu Ghraib comes immediately to mind.
Hell is not a reformation program. Those who are sent there by your loving god are never released. There is no parole. There is no death. There is no chance of paying the debt to society, or to whomever, ever. Hell is eternal retributive punishment, and nothing more. Many of your loved ones will spend not 1,000, not 100,000, not 1,000,000,000 years in hell, they will reside there, tortured, in agony, forever and ever and ever. Hell does not embody a progressive view of justice. Hell is a sadistic, bronze-age concept of justice. It is savage.
Can you even think of one time when torture is the right thing to do?
Your god and his hell are the products of primitive, savage minds. Fortunately for us, we have evolved a better sense of justice. Your god is still living in the dark ages.
The only reason you are convinced you are a terrible sinner, is because you were taught you are a terrible sinner, deserving of everlasting punishment, by a simplistic religion. Had you never been taught this concept, you would never have thought of it.
Your devotion to this unmerciful deity is sincere, I'm sure. I'm equally sure you've been deceived.
The way Christianity works is that it creates a need in people by convincing people of their relative worthlessness without the religion. Then it sells the "worthless" people a product that supposedly gives people worth. Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute. Perhaps he's right. Maybe the old adage "Buyer Beware" is apropos.
Peace.
Right, and if it were not for the belief in your deity, both "grace" and "faith" would be unnecessary. The argument is completely circular. You are presupposing the former in order to get/have the latter.
Anony: "I live on a very limited and tight budget. My budget no longer will allow me the luxury of internet service, once this bill is paid, I am requesting it to be shut off."
Pray.
Anony: "This is why I encourage you...continue your search and may it be rewarded."
To a skeptic/rationalist the search is never really over. We're just waiting on the evidence, and when/if it comes?... then most of us would HAPPY to adjust our world-views, accordingly. It is the method by which the search is conducted that brings "truth".
The abuser is the first child. The child no one heard. The child who spent all of his young life in a prison you and I can not imagine.
Was justice served?"
Morals and Ethics for $500. If you truly believe what you have written, you don't follow the bible. The bible, condemns homosexual behavior, and it is very likely the child you describe will carry on their sexual programming. There is "no disctinction" in the bible, for the ifs and buts of sexuality.
The scenario you provided, has a resonating ring... What you describe as a life that someone can't imagine, is exactly the life "priests" were living, as they molested and raped little boys - as gods' ambassador - else god would have stepped in.
By the way, you suggest the views of humanity are distorted, thus you can't find nor determine judgement or justice. However, you use your personally distorted view, to state that a perfect deity exists, that has the capability to provide perfect judgement and justice.
Curious... if you aren't capable of knowing how to judge the actions of people, and pass/make judgement calls... how is it possible for you to protect an abused child if you become aware of one? Doesn't that require you to pass judgement, and intervene by protection (justice).
I'll leave it there, it appears you spent at least a little effort attempting to reply honestly. By the way, many public libraries have wireless internet access for those with laptops that have Wi-Fi 802.11a/b/g wireless Ethernet cards. If you don't have a compliant laptop, there are library PCs that have access as well. Friend.
Glad I don't have to use my imagination to create images of endless torture, with no god to hear the screams. But, obviously, god didn't hear the screams and cries of the little child in the scenario either, its all gods' will.
If you are so able, then you render justice, for I will not.
Vindicate: "To get revenge for; avenge."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vindicate
How do you know your abuser will be "punished", and you will receive your revenge? Or, is that your gods' revenge? Either way, someone is speaking on a gods' behalf, from a distorted perspective.
And, again, isn't your god the one that allowed your abuser to be sexually assaulted without vindication as a little child?
Where was god in all of this abuse? Would you call your abuse, "punishment" for something you did?
Would you send your abuser to eternal hell for his actions? If not, where is your revenge? Does god, give second prize punishments for those who don't do enough to make it into hell, but aren't the most chaste of individuals? The mormons believe in levels of heaven, for just that scenario. Other christian denominations, don't have levels of heaven, its binary... you're either on fire for god, or on fire for Satan, either way, there is no luke warm middle.
Anonymous: "Perhaps you will be able to understand now, perhaps not. My abuser was once like me...my abuser the one who could most understand my pain, the one who endured the same. Victim and abuser."
I think I have a solid grasp of your situation, from a "knowledge" perspective, based on what you have provided... I will never fully understand your particular experience, that's yours. Your experience "means" something to you, something you are supposed to explore and come to terms with.
You are now projecting yourself onto your abuser, and seeing a reflection... its a mirage. You are not them, and they are not you.
Anonymous: "If you are so able, then you render justice, for I will not."
Justice: "The administering of deserved punishment or reward."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=justice
Justice is the action/administering of deserved punishment or reward in regard to a morally/legally founded crime.
-If you forgave your abuser... you passed judgement.
-If you didn't forgive your abuser... you passed judgement.
-If you chose not to turn them in to law enforcement, you passed judgement.
-If you chose to turn them in to the authorities, you passed judgement.
You judged your abusers actions, as "wrong", and acted upon your instincts... you... made a judgement call. Your "judgement" call, placed that abuser to be subject to the "justice" system, thus, you judged, and handed over your abuser to a human law enforcement element for execution of justice.
If you can't accept that you passed judgement, and subsequently turned your abuser over to authorities... then you are confused.
Do you now, after the fact, condemn the actions of your abuser? If you can't make that judgement call... you will be easy pray for abusers your entire life... if that's the case, I can only hope you seek counseling.
I don't know if you are attempting to set up a case for a secondary drive by troll, i.e., establishing the foundation for a moral relativism argument, but... I'll go out on a limb and speak cordially until a true christian shows up on the scene and condemns us both to hell.
Seriously... You have moved past condemnation of the person, but you at some point have to come to conscious terms with how you feel about the actions of your abuser.
There's nothing wrong with condemning the "actions" of a person. Also, I believe we have the capacity/potential to learn from our past. Religions state that we are sinful, and can't escape our sinful natures... our abuse is going to happen anyway, and there's nothing we can do about it - god will make it right. A truly defeatist attitude.
If you have more you would like to talk about, feel free to throw it out there, I have nothing but time. Just out of curiosity, can you please tell me, how old a girl should be before she gets married? Indulge me.
Has anyone ever pondered where exactly did the source of those words come from?
Was everyone born with those words already placed in their minds?
NO!!
The root source of those emotional words are from where?? The Bible!
Has anyone ever pondred where the Bible came from???
From overseas!!!!
The Bible is not an original product of American culture!!
The Bible was introduced by tje Europeans fleeing religious persecution!!!
Yet they persecuted the American Indians by killing them, but that was Ok, saith the Lord!!!
How come if the christains were fleeing persecution why could they not talk the Indians into their wonderful so easy to believe religion???
Because it's all a christian
lie!!!
Christians have always played the persecution card to get what they want, yet so many stayed over in Europoe to be constantly persecuted???
Before 1492, there were no words used like hope, faith, persecution, Jesus, sin, etc.
Those useless manipulation words were brought over here to America via a ship by a Christian.
The Bible and all it's words and sentences, are used only for manipulation and control and to conquer other lands!!!
You make believe Christians need to wake up from your mental fantasy.
"So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver" (2 Corinthians 9:7).
God wants us to give happily, and it is our choice... (Another aspect of free will) as to how to distribute that charity. The Bible says many things which may be interpreted to suit any person’s individual expectations or ideals. That is why we have free will, the right to choose Him, and how we wish to show that faith… or in your case not.
The behavior of others is not my burden, on judgment day God alone will judge me and no one else… I am accountable to the king, or president in my case as the bible decrees. I am not to blame for the behavior of people who were born before me… any more than you are Stanley. Regardless of beliefs, no man can be blamed for what he himself cannot control.
Stanley you really need to study religious history, if you are going to hate something at least have your facts straight. Yes Christianity came from Europe and Africa, but the Native American people were not atheists. The NA held to a Great Spirit, and minor god/esses aplenty, as did almost every other tribe/faction/race of man on the planet dating back since the time of cave paintings… circa 30,000 BC… belief in god/s is not the new kid on the block… atheism is.
Anon, the bible and other books of ancient times say the same thing about taking snuff and drinking and the like, simply don’t let it control you… or as the bible says everything in moderation. As for what is real and what is not… let’s say a farmer thousands of years before Christ unearthed a t-rex skull… not knowing what we now do thanks to science - he would have integrated it into his local mythos… as a dragon perhaps, an evil being, or in ancient Chin, a dragon spirit of good… the moment where scientific fact meets legend or fiction.
I am not a hardnosed ‘fundy’ as many like to label Christians, I admit there is much I do not know, but looking for the answers is my life’s work. For me, it stands that God is real and the bible a strong historical text, heh yet much of it - by it’s own admission, is allegory… stories told for instruction. Since much of it is being proven by science, while other points are disproved, who can say. Regardless of god/s existence the ten commandments are good moral rules, a reasonable standard in order to maintain civilization.
I believe because if there is nothing to believe in, if this is the be all and end all, what are we here for? what is the purpose of creating something so beautiful, so vibrant if not for something better after?
I believe because history has proven time and again that what we know or think we know is not everything, that events have taken place that support the bible, not the other way around as some argue
It is our greatest gift that we question and decide for ourselves, it is in our nature to argue and question, the bible says he should be humble as sheep, not follow like dumb sheep.
I spent a life time questioning, searching and finding out for myself what is real and what is not, God exists not because man created him, but created a belief system around him that they feel fits him, that is true faith.
Finding the truth beneath the 'faith', that is true joy.
When I went on an archaeological dig years ago and stood on the pinnacle of the Ark. I witnessed something incredible. I witnessed the greatness of man in the depths of his trials and I saw and felt the majesty of a being so incredible that it touches you in a place reserved for that purpose, that is what being small is beneath a sky and a faith so large we cant understand it.
To understand it is to break heaven.
If that makes me a Christian, so be it.
How eruditious, now, can you explain the difference between the majority of "all" previous gods in history, and the christian god? I am sure you are well versed, in these differences. Once you do that, come back and lets talk about which spiritual ideaology is the new kid on the block, there bubba.
Atheism, is older than christianity, and its unique god concept, vis a vis the Roman Emperor Constantine I and a gov't sponsored clergy.
That aside, christianity "is" the genesis for the "bloodiest" of "all" religions, even to this day. Let me know, when you have educated yourself on your own religion.
"Who knows for certain? Who shall here declare it? Whence was it born and whence came this creation? The gods were born after this world's creation. Then, who can know from whence it has arisen? None know whence creation has arisen and whether he has or has not produced it. He who surveys it in the highest heaven, he only knows, or happily, he may know not".
Around 500 BC, Buddhism, inspired by the Rig-Veda, became a theistic philosophy. (Believing is god/s and spirits)
'1000 BC' ... is hardly pre-Judean, and far younger than the 6000 years the Old Testament has been around, thus as far as like-minded groups go it is the new kid. And since you obviously lack the skill to know what atheist means, it means one who denies the existence of any god/s at all, not just Christianity, nearly every race of man has had religion as a part of their civil code from the earliest days of man's ability to record events.
As for difference between Christianity and others, that is easy, Christianity is the god mythos I have chosen as best for me. Basically they all share common elements such as one creator god, or 'father', a lesser god who risks his immortality to make life better for humans… Jesus or Prometheus - and a malevolent god/ess who seeks to destroy all that the father had made… such as Loki and Baphomet. It becomes a matter of eeny-meeny-miny-moe… and there are precious few peoples in history who have not picked one.
You can find reasons to hate anything Anon. you use harsh definitives as if that vindicates your claim… it only makes me chuckle. Any race, religion or government can be blamed for something and I am sure you fit into one of them, just as we all do… so finger pointing is senseless, if not childish. One of my great uncles built the furnaces for German death camps, does that mean I owe every Jew I meet an apology? No… because I will not take the blame for acts I did not myself commit.
Most of us would agree, that what we have here is beautiful, and its what we make it for the most part as humanity.
You need to go to a christian web site, and ask them why a god who makes such a beautiful universe, to include humanity, would make such a deplorable hell, to torture his beautiful creation for eternity. Let me know, if you get an answer, thanks.
First of all, Judean, is not "christian", there was no "Christ" in Judaism. The Tanakh, with its Torah "never" mentions a christ, Jesus, etc. If you don't agree, here's a link to a Rabbi...
Rev. Pasha: "...and far younger than the 6000 years the Old Testament has been around,"
Written language? You're kidding, here, ask a PhD what the oldest written form of language is...
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/linguist/ask-ling/oldest.html
This year is 2006, subtract 6,000 years, and you are suggesting the bible, specifically the Old Testament, was written around 4,006-BCE.
Archeological evidence suggests around 3200-BCE, not as you suggest 4,006-BCE there's almost a thousand year difference there, bud.
"According to historians, the Old Testament was composed between the 5th century BC and the 2nd century BC, though parts of it, such as the Torah, and Song of Deborah (Judges 5), date back much earlier."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament
Rev. Pasha: "...thus as far as like-minded groups go it is the new kid."
Again, Judaic followers were not "like minded" with those of the first christians, read some history, its why there were was great persecution.
Christianity wasn't established until Constantine I, created a council to establish Christianity as a state religion. That is when it was officially established. If a Christian wants to claim that Jesus' name was used to establish a Christian type following, then the earliest you are going to find, is in the epistles of Paul, and they date mid-first century CE, so... when did Atheism start up? As you said, much earlier than mid-first century BCE.
There are Atheistic attributes of belief, that pre-exist 5th Century BCE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Much earlier, than Christianity, in its most wild of dreams. Atheists didn't change their views, everyone else just changed the names of the gods, christianity being one who chose YHWH over El. Of course, you know this, its it the bible, right.
Rev. Pasha: "And since you obviously lack the skill to know what atheist means, it means one who denies the existence of any god/s at all, not just Christianity, nearly every race of man has had religion as a part of their civil code from the earliest days of man's ability to record events."
"Atheism, in its broadest sense, is the absence of belief in a deity or deities."
The absence of belief, doesn't necessarily mean "denying" the existence, as you stated... some don't care to "accept" the belief, period. That's not denying, that's not acceptance, I know... its makes sense... just let it sink in for a while.
You have represented well, the level of knowledge you hold, from which you draw your beliefs. I could sit here all day, and attempt to educate you, but... it would mean more, if you did it on your own.
And, by the way, you never replied to the difference between YHWH and all other gods before its inception as the new god over the Judean god El.
May I please have $10.00 Mr. Pasha? Please?
You can use the PayPal button.
Thanks.
www.jewsforjudaism.org
I'm sure you are open minded enough to discuss your religious beliefs, with a Rabbi... right.
WM: T-Rex is not the new kid on the block, humanity is. Or better: Neanderthal Man is not the new kind on the block, we are.
Or maybe this: Belief in RA is not the new kid on the block, Christianity is.
Sunday School logics is funny.
My great grandmother, "Eve", took a bite of an apple because she was tempted by a talking snake, does that mean I owe every god I never meet an apology? No...because I will not take the blame for acts I did not myself commit.
I think people need religion and beliefs to acquire some form of recognition and entitlement, for example you Rev. Pasha I presume, were not born with the prefix Rev. on your birth certificate, now were you, hmmmm?
But by prescribing to a religion or belief, this allows you to be recognized somewhere in your religious sect and other esteemed places in society, ya?
People will boldly boast, even when not asked, "I am a Christian!" Why? Because they are looking for some form of recognition and entitlement from other people, and that society has been brainwashed to believe that to claim a religious title it is to be viewed as admirable.
There is something lacking in one's life when they have to cling on to self-acclaimed religious titles.
You sir, have found out that by claiming a religious title, people will bend and sway to your every command, you get your much desired respect that you would not normally get, just out of their Bible endorsed fear, yet by your claiming a self-elected title you have found out people will bow down to you and give you extra recognition that you would not normally receive, you have found that by claiming a religious title, people will go out of their way just to appease the Rev. Pasha.
If being a "True Christian" has any real meanings to anyone, Jesus said to deny yourself, meaning putting yourself last, yet you've self-elected yourself to a position with a religious title, you've jumped ahead of the line by putting yourself first, this alone shows the total hypocrisy in all religious institutions.
Maybe I'm wrong and that God and Jesus and all the heavenly angels made a consensus one day to vote you into Earthly high counsel, but for some reason according to my own built-in peripheral senses, I have a feeling that you've elected your own self to religious high counsel.
To deny this means, there is no truth in the Rev. Pasha!
I'm not spewing hatred, Christians view Truth as hatred, because Truth goes against their own personal religious agenda.
So, without a God, human life has no meaning? Is that the point here? Okay, so that means humans need a god to give their lives meaning. Right? Only by believing in a god, do people acuqire meaning, and without such a god, life is meaningless?
Well, then what gives God's life meaning? If you say that HIS life has intrinsic meaning, then you're admitting that there is the possiblity of life with inherent meaning. If a god can be assumed to have meaning without acquiring it from outside of itself, then why would you assume that human life is incapable of having instrinsic meaning and worth?
Are you following me here? Why do think human life is worthless without a god, yet has worth with a god? Can you explain where that thought comes from?
Just Me: "When I went on an archaeological dig years ago and stood on the pinnacle of the Ark. I witnessed something incredible."
WM: WOW! I've got to see the pictures! Send them to me, and I'll post them right here.
Well, since this is what you have provided, let me enlighten.
The god YHWH, was per most scholars, arguably the first "Universal" Supreme Creator God, all previous gods before, were natural type gods, or Supreme gods that favored one specific group of people only.
Thus, all of the gods previously, to include the Indian gods, were 'natural' gods, that had natural traits assigned to them. The Christian god, is "supernatural", its arguably the first god, said to not exist in the natural reality, yet, christians in a natural reality, say they know a supernatural entity - its the most absurd of all religions. Christianity, went off the deep end with its god, and christians today, have no clue about the difference between their own god and previous gods that were natural, gods that could be known and understood in Nature - especially by the Native American Indians.
Rev. P., is a classic example of someone trying to "force" reality, into a box, predefined by his personal desires. Its obvious that Rev. P., "desires" to spend his money in his "own" particular way, and thus, will twist the bible to conform to that personal desire.
Your comment has been deleted.
If we could self-elect ourselves to sway people peoples thoughts based upon our beliefs, well that is exactly the whole problem with all religions. TC
Next victim...lol
Praise Isis!
If your heart is crying out to God and God is tugging on your heart strings, then you must let God touch your heart, then you must open the eyes of your heart, then you must let God open the door to your heart, so God can search your heart, then you must invite God or Jesus into your heart, then you must let God lift your heart, hopefully you do not have a heavy heart, or your heart is not carrying a heavy burden, hopefully your heart does not ache for God, if so, then you must pour your heart out to God or Jesus, because God knows exactly what is in your heart, you must surrender your heart to God or Jesus, hopefully God will touch the bottom of your heart, then you must turn the rudder of your heart toward God, hopefully God will steal your heart, you must do what your heart tells you to do, hopefully your heart has not waxed cold, if so, then you will have a bitter heart and God will have a broken heart, hopefully God will bless your heart, what ever happens you must get your heart right with God, hopefully you do not have an angry heart.
My heart goes out to all you infidel sinners!!!!
Are you trying to convince us that one is a Christian for life, or are you trying to convince yourself? And why would God give you the most advanced thinking machine there is (a brain,) then make not using it a requirement to know him? You're basically saying that you have to make yourself stupid in order to be a Christian.
Oh and I DO THINK...but there are things that I shouldn't think...and it applies to you too.
NO matter what...one day(at the latest-when you die) you will know for cetain that God exist..and hell does too. I know that it is really good for your flesh to think that there is no God because it shots up your conscience when you indulge in sin-oh weight you don't think that sin exist...that why do you ever get a feeling in you heart that it's wrong..because though you are numb..it still may hit you sometimes.
Another thing...how do you think the world was created? Think about it's beauty all the flowers..animals...etc. I am not gonna go into it in depth because you should know it all...do you ever wonder? What do you belive in ..og THE BIG BOOM--awh. That's even more redicioulus that believing in GOD. That's too sound like a fairy tale. I know that the Bible can sound like that..but there is a lot of evidence why it's true...and also why other religions aren't. Thing like none of the other religions knew before that the Earth was round..it was stated in the Bible way before we knew it..but that's just one and there is many. Also today we can scientifically prove a lot of things from the Bible. Sometimes you should look around on the other side while you put aside your judgement for a while. Another thing...just look at how you write and how we do...which looks more evil?
Remember all, God will never let any of us die. We have a choice: throw yourself into his loving arms and place your head upon his breast, or face His jealous, angry, punishing wrath for eternity! Turn now, for his mercy endures forever, well, actually, it's his wrath that endures forever. So REPENT YOU FILTHY SCUM! HELL IS YOUR FUTURE! YOU ARE DAMNED, DAMNED, DAMNED!
God loves you, damn it! Love him back or you will SO REGRET IT!!! God is not an abuser, BUT HE WON'T TOLERATE YOU UNLESS YOU REPENT!!!!!!
I wonder if any of the Christians reading this could honestly believe they have committed enough sins in their pathetically short lives worthy of everlasting torture. 100 years of torture. Hmm. 10,000 years? Hmm. A million years? Hmmm.
Forever and ever and ever and ever and ever??? Is that really justice? Is torture ever justice? Shouldn't the punishment fit the crime? 100 years of snubbing God deserves an eternity in pain? Really? With not one opportunity to repent then? No chance of forgiveness, ever? Ever?
Not ever?
Forever damned for 100 years or less of unbelief?
Think about it Christian? Does that make any sense at all from an unconditionally loving heavenly father?
The way you look at it however is different. It's like if you would tell your child not to play on the street because you will get hurt or even die if you do.YOu set those rules because you love your child and don't want him to get hurt or die. But the kid doesn't care for what you say and goes out to play on the street because it's 'fun'. For a while maybe nothing happens to him..you might need to spank the kid a little bit if he just won't listen to you in order to save him.. but if he will keep being disobedient..one day he will harvest what he has sowed..a car hits him and he dies. So you are only being told to obey for your own good..and very naturally when you don't do that you will cause trouble for yourself..it's just the natural consequence of your own desobedient. It's not really him sending you to hell..it's you who choose that way...he told you what's good for you because he loves you...it's your decision to obey or disobey-you only get the concequences of your own decision.
Something else:
What I have noticed from pretty much all of you is that you don't only just not believe in God...you hate those who do. I don't feel much tolerance here. You don't argue politely for most of the time. You are mostly rude and say everything with sarcasm. You think we are all stupid because we believe in this 'nonsence' that there is a God, while atheism is just as much a religion as christianity.It's only a belief...you have no more scientific evidence(if you really have any at all) that would prove your theory for a 100% sure. You only BELIEVE that there is no God...but you can't know for certain...there is no way.
People believed that he deserved to be tortured to death for that.
You believe I should be tortured for all eternity for having a stupid little website? Is your god so petty, so shallow, so insecure, that a little website rankles HIM to the point of everlasting sadism?
You are one sick bastard. You glory in the fantasy of horror against your fellow humans because they do not share you pathetic religion.
I don't hate you, or those trapped like you. I was once twisted and warped as you are now. I pity you. You have lost away your mind and your freedom in exchange for a Holy Ghost that you hope will reward your loyalty with jewels and crowns in the clouds.
Meanwhile you and your peverse god will laugh and celebrate at the carnage that eternity wreaks on most of humanity as they burn and smolder everlastingly.
BTW, Your flying un-dead god-man commanded you to give to everyone who asks. I'm asking you, oh holy one, for 10 dollars. If you refuse to give it, then I suppose you and I will be bunk mates in hell.
That was quite a tirade. Let's do a little comparison, just to see where we stand. As I try not to speak for anybody but myself, I will phrase this in terms of my own beliefs and behaviors, and hasten to point out that I am by no means atypical in any of these aspects. If you actually try to read some of the discussions that take place here, you will see that for yourself.
1) I think you are 100% entitled to believe whatever you want, and for whatever reason you want. You think we deserve to burn in Hell if we happen to disagree with you.
2) I think it's quite rude to force one's beliefs on others who have expressly chosen a different path. You think it's somehow your duty to rope others into your peculiar beliefs. (Example: I would NEVER post something analogous to what you wrote on a Christian web site; I think it's rude to invade someone's space and insult them.)
3) I think it's prudent to understand the arguments put forth by the other side. By all appearances, you can't be bothered to listen to the other side at all (your comments about scientific evidence and proof are so far off-base that you clearly haven't read anything here at all).
4) I would continue to love my children and protect them if they decided not to listen to me, didn't believe I existed, or even hated me. If your analogy above is any indication of your own feelings, then it seems you would not behave similarly. Moreover, I'll point out that it's a parent's responsibility to find a way to communicate important messages to children; the fault is not with them if they fail to understand.
In short, I find nothing virtuous in your position; at least judging by what you've written thus far. If you think your position warrants some respect, or in any way serves the interests of humanity, then by all means show us what you have to back it up, and see if you can do it with civility. Good day.
How does one "Mock" a God?
I guess many people wish they could mock a God...
The only place sin exists is in the bible, who put that word there?
Had you never heard of the bible from other humans, you would not be thinking so self-righteously of yourself right now!
Before 1492, a bible had never been on American soil, so all those heathen savages are in hell right now, how come we do not just kill all the Indians in America living today, since they are all the same descendants of the first original heathen savages? I think your god would like that! huh?
What were some of the sins of the Native American Indians, before God and Jesus arrived in the form of a book? The one that tells everyone what sin is!
nao, you're just spouting something (garbage) you've heard before, you were not born with a knowledge of a God, you were told by another human that there is a God, that's all the proof you have, yet you come on here chastizing us for rejecting your belief.
A belief is all there is, a belief is all that you have, you have no evidence except for a book, a book written about a god, not a book from a god, there is second and third party intervention, prob. hundreds more.
A god nor jesus never wrote any part of the bible. Why not? Could it be they do not exist? Could it be that they were too illiterate and could not write or speak for themselves?
What language did your God use to convey his preacious inspired message in? Was it Arabic, Hindu, Greek, Spanish, Chinese, Russian, etc.
What is the language of choice for your God? You should atleast know that!
What is the official language of a creator God? Anyone know?
It seems to be money!
How come the bible is supposed to be true, but no one knows what the official language of a god is?
Is that such a hard question?
We desperately need some answers, nao!
We're waiting!!!
BTW, I hope you've sent in your ten bucks before Jesus returns, otherwise it's to the inferno with us infidels that your god loves so much!
I beg you today to turn your heart towards reality and common sense, wont you do it today? In the name of sanity and mental stability, these things we ask, a sensible man and a sensible woman.
I just feel that your mockery is really evil-and the devil must be really pleased with you. He made you all believe that there is no God...which is what he wants..this or you to worship him.
Nao, we not only disbelieve in your "God", but we disbelieve in ALL supernatural "entities".....this would include goblins, spooks, and "devils". The same way you, Nao, disbelieve in Allah, and Buddha, and the boogieman. Nao, there are no "devils"--they do not exist. You seem to be constipated with misinformation about Atheism. Atheists don't "worship" the "devil". Nao, please educate yourself on what Atheism is. Don't "guess" or parrot what your two fundy friends say, 'k?
YOu are trying to 'convert' people too...but anyway you all really will stand before God for judgement.
Nao, YOU came here. You are free to leave at anytime, and I suspect you will get some "help" with that soon. Nonetheless, no, we won't "stand before God", because "God" doesn't exist. Nao, simply insisting that God exists won't make God exist. You'll need to actually produce some evidence for your claims if you expect to be taken seriously. Evidence, Nao.
The way you look at it however is different. It's like if you would tell your child not to play on the street because you will get hurt or even die if you do.
Not to shockingly, your "child-parent" analogy fails, just like it does for the hundreds of other Christians who attempt to compare a relationship/dialogue between two real physical beings, with that of a person and a NON-real, NON-physcial "being". But even if we humor you for a minute---if the child "disobeys" and gets "killed" playing the street, he/she goes to "Heaven" if they were too young to have been exposed to Christianity, right? And 'christ(pun intended), that's the best thing that could ever happen to him/her, according to the way Nao believes! So why aren't Christians out running little kids over, and/or drowning them so they get into heaven?(ala Susan Smith) Why?..because they don't really "believe" in their make-believe "heaven"---they only hope for it...that's why.
It's not really him sending you to hell..it's you who choose that way...he told you what's good for you because he loves you
No, your "God" has never "told" me jack shit. That's the problem. And don't hand me anymore "Word of God" bible bullshit, unless you're prepared to listen to what "Allah has told Nao", via the Holy Q'ran. Thanks.
What I have noticed from pretty much all of you is that you don't only just not believe in God...you hate those who do.
What I "hate" is what religious belief does to people like you.
You don't argue politely for most of the time.
By argue "politely" do you mean agree with what you say? 'Wrong place for that.
while atheism is just as much a religion as christianity.
No, it's not a religion---but even if it was, what are you saying?....that's it's JUST AS bad as Christianity?..i.e..your dog has just as many fleas as my dog, neener, neener, neener! Weak.
It's only a belief...you have no more scientific evidence(if you really have any at all) that would prove your theory for a 100% sure.
I was just having this discussion with one your disciples of Christ. I'll use the same analogy: If Atheism is a "belief", then NOT collecting stamps is a "hobby". Atheism is the NON-belief in god(s). And again, you are attemtping to bring Atheism down to your level of conviction. Atheism is NOT a conviction--it is merely a position of neutrality.
You only BELIEVE that there is no God...but you can't know for certain...there is no way.
You only BELIEVE in God...but you can't know for certain...there is no way.
For the novice "debater"---the burden of proof is in the lap of the one MAKING the positive claim.
If I'm wrong, Nao, please correct me, as I'd rather not defend my erroneous thinking in perpetuity. = )
Wow. If you're right, I'll be very impressed.
But wait... You neglected to mention whether she is right- or left-handed! :-)
Well..if you want proves you can find many...over the internet or wherever you want(but you can experience God in your life spiritually...that's the perfect proof but your spirit is dead right now...so you can't feel and understand Him)..you probably wouldn't believe me anyway...you have hardened your hearts long time ago.
Oh..and yes I am probably not as old as you are..thank GOd. I am young..that's true..but a above 18. I've been christian for only about a 1.5 yrs. so of course my 'arguing' isn' that strong-but that wasn't the purpose. I don't have to win you over..actually I can't...you make your own decisions. But as much as you pity me I pity you..or rather feel sorry for you.-even though I don't need to.
About the spellig and etc. I have misspelled some things accidently(like weight instead of wait)...and also I might not be the greatest speller and maybe I can't express myself like an adult ..but forgive me... a few years ago I couldn't even write a sentence in English. I am thankful that I have got this far..but I am planning to improve my English anyway.
So..I am foreign.I guess I have given you another reason to hate me...(not from Asia though-wrong about that one).
About the ten dollars...I am not going to heaven because I have kept all the commandments or because I have given you 10 dolars when you asked...I am a sinner too who deserves hell like you do but I am goint to heaven because I accepted that Jesus had paid the price for my sins( the "fairy tale" you know...)all I needed is to accept a gift.
Oh and the false 'Jesus' might need money, but God doesn't. He owns everything, including evrything you have. He could take it away in a second if he wanted to(but I guess he doesn't)...he doesn't need to beg..but he also doesn't need money...He's got more power that anyone can have with all the money on Earth.
All right...I think I AM gonna take off..I just waste my time here.
I still hope the best for you guys.
Take care,
For future reference, Nao, if you accuse somebody of twisting your words I suggest you be specific about what got twisted. As is, I have no idea what you're referring to.
Nao: "...but again all I have noticed was the hatred and sarcasm."
Throwing the word "hatred" at us is completely unjustified. I don't hate you -- I don't even know you. I find your rhetoric to be very annoying, and I disagree with your theology (as I've tried to explain) but that's no reason to hate someone.
Nao: "Well..if you want proves you can find many...over the internet or wherever you want..."
That's the whole point. Just saying there is "much evidence" or "many proofs" does not suffice. I have examined hundreds of those so-called proofs, and not a single one holds up to even modest scrutiny. So, if you have nothing to offer in the way of evidence or argument, we have nothing to discuss.
Nao: "...that's the perfect proof but your spirit is dead right now...you have hardened your hearts long time ago."
That's a bit rude and presumptuous, isn't it Nao? It's called an ad hominem attack when you go after a person's character in an attempt to defuse their argument. It's a well-known fallacy. Why do you choose to attack rather than discuss? If you have some profound insight, nobody is stopping you from sharing it.
Nao: "...But as much as you pity me I pity you..or rather feel sorry for you..."
It's not about pity. I don't pity you. I disagree with you. Do you find that so threatening? If so, why?
Nao: "...a few years ago I couldn't even write a sentence in English... but I am planning to improve my English..."
Good for you. I know that's difficult.
Nao: "So..I am foreign.I guess I have given you another reason to hate me..."
Nobody hates you here. How on earth can you hate someone for a few dozen words on a web site? That makes no sense. Please learn to differentiate between "hate" and "disagreement".
Nao: "..I just waste my time here."
And apparently we've wasted ours.
Nao: "I still hope the best for you guys."
And I hope the best for you, regardless of what you choose to believe. Bye now.
Many of us were just exactly like you were when we were younger, much more gullible and naive.
The point we are trying desperately to get across not only to you but many people just like you that believe the same very thing that you believe, most of us believed (We Believed) just like you do now.
Now who can honestly say that there exists a God whom whom created the entire universe and is going to toss people into a burning Hell, based solely upon what they have chosen to believe?
What if a person is born deaf?... What if a person is born mentally ill?... What if a person is born with Down's Syndrome?...What if Siamese Twins are born and they share the same Heart and one of them believes in a God and the other one does not, do both of them go to Hell or do both of them go to Heaven?
nao, We're looking for an equal oportunity God, that loves people everyone on Earth based upon their ability to get along and love one another and try to make the world a safer place, not love them based upon their beliefs, how freaken ridiculous is that?
Most Atheists are opposed to what you would call sin, most of us know what is right and wrong, we know it's not right to harm another human being, we didn't need a bible nor a belief to know this, neither do you.
Most of us abide with the ten commandments, but we do not believe a God inspired the ten commandments, we beleive any person living back then, could have wrote them.
We also do not believe that the bible was the inspired word from a God, mainly because there is so much hatred and random killings and murder written in the Bible, to appease this God, that you pretend to worship.
We wonder why if a God can create the whole entire universe in just six days, why did it take this God 4000 years later to come up with the virgin birth salvation plan.
We also wonder why does killing a God's only begotten son atone for everyones sins, for the ones that ask?
What does murder do to appease this God that he may forgive people from their sins?
How did people get saved from their sins before Jesus, burn animals perhaps, is this what a God wants, burnt sacrifices?
Does this God love the idea of murder? I know I do not, does this make me better than your God? Do you like the idea of murdering innocent people, in hopes of saving people from their sins? Does this make sense to you?
Have you ever asked yourself any of these questions, or do you just take anyones word that claim to have been inspired by a God?
nao, you haven't told us anything that we've not heard a million times, I suppose after you hear the same rhetoric a million times you'll realize it's all bunk.
We will always love you, whether you want our love or not.
All we ask is, that you examine what you're spewing to us with close acrutiny, you'll soon see it's all a hoax. We found out it is all a myth.
We do not need a belief, because we base our lives on what we know is true, not what someone wrote down over 2000 years ago, and it claims what is written is true, without a speck of evidence nor any way to examine or verify it's source.
Preachers say that a product comes with it's owners manual and that the Bible is man's owners manual, but when we are born, we do not come out with a Bible attached like man made products do, the Bible is later applied to the product.
We atheists live by what we know in our minds is true, not by what others tell us we should believe.
If there is an all loving God, then this God would rather love someone that is not filled with the beliefs in myths and superstitions.
If I were a God and said nothing ever and this group of people wrote a book written about me, but without my approval, I would be very disappoined in them, especially when they build all those brainwashing boxes (churches) and said that I required worship and constant prayer.
If people wrote an book about me and it was all a lie, then I would be very disappointed in them, I wouldn't call them Christians.
More tell-tale signs of an immature and inexperienced "evangelist". Nao says we can "experience God" in our lives, spiritually...BUT...our spirits are dead...so we can't feel and understand "Him".
Okay, any reasonable person can see the blatant circle: We can't understand and experience God because our spirits are dead, yet, we can't have our spirits not be dead, until we can experience God. What's a poor heathen to do?[/sarcasm]
But seriously---Nao, I know you're reading this right now. Please, get out while you still can.
Best regards, boomSLANG.
My first thought was to be offended by this article, but then I understood that it's not meant as offensive, it's simply honest. Unless I missed something, you're just being honest, and I approve of that.
By your definition of a "Christian," you're absolutely right. The Bible never used that word, though. It used words like "follower" (yes, like a stupid sheep, I know). The people in this world who make me the maddest are the ones who are the most sure that they are worthy to be called a Christian, or consider themselves truly blameless. I like it that you aren't like that.
I want you to know that there is one idiotic sheep out here that is trying with all of his being to do what Jesus says because he believes in Him as the Christ. I don't know this because of logic or fancy arguments, of which I have none, but by the miracles I have witnessed in my short lifetime. If God can completely heal chronic illnesses in an instant when we pray to Him in Jesus' name, then I'm sure going to do whatever Jesus said to do.
Therefore, in response to Matthew 5:39-42, I have donated $20 to your cause. I'm not doing this so that I can receive some earthly credit, as I assume I'll get more flak for this than anything else from the Christian community (and possibly you). I'm giving this money to you expecting that you will use it to undermine the teachings of my Savior. Consider it a depsoit on my appeal to you to accept my love for you as my neighbor.
Furthermore, I am going to show you another act of love. Because I love you and care for your well-being, I am going to fast for three days and pray for you and for the furthering of His Kingdom in your life, that it may bring you satisfaction and joy to return to Him, despite your imperfections and pride. God bless you and put you in the mindset of being His beloved!
Unworthy to be a sheep, but trying my best,
David
P.S.- Please send me an e-mail at Thebatcommander@gmail.com ... I would like to talk to you one on one if that's all right with you.
And thank you for the act of personal sacrifice.
Come back in three days and we'll talk.
p.s. - My name is Kelsey, and I don't ever plan to come back to this webpage so I don't care what you say about me.
peace out all you argumentative types, may you all relax a little...and webmaster, 10 dollars doesn't go very far these days, i both commend you as well as shake my head at you in disbeleif for not asking for more.
p.s. kelsey smells...haha jokes :), just cuz you said we could...hard to resist.
Why don't you post something similar on all the Christian websites that expound on the evils of non-belief, of belief in other gods, of homosexuality, and of science? Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, will keep you busy for quite some time. After all, there are literally tens of thousands of such websites.
Here's a few links to get you started...
Westboro Baptist Church
The Family Research Council
Focus on the Family
Concerned Women for America
Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
...and many, many more. So many, in fact, that if I were to list them all I'd be writing this post for weeks.
It's not "all good."
As for why we should bother, this website exists for the express purpose of supporting those who've left Christianity (Site Purpose and Disclaimer).
Many people have erred using the name "Christian" and have caused others to doubt. For example, God never said for Christians to have a war and kill thousands of people who would not convert. People mistake the clearing of Canaan with the crusades of the "Catholics." If you read the scriptures carefully, not everyone in Canaan was killed mercilessly. Rahab, a harlot, and her whole family were saved along with others who denounced idolatrous practices.
I can see by your current understanding that God could not love unconditionally because he does condemn and because scriptures show he has destroyed "unrepentant sinners." You might do well to study how the bible describes God as being "just" and not a respecter of persons. A just God has to punish those who refuse to obey. If you disagree with this, then I am sure you deny that any absolutes should exist in this world. Perhaps, we should not have mandatory sentences and punishments for criminals.
Your faith is to deny God. My faith is to affirm him and his will. In the end we will see who is right. I pray that somehow your mind can be changed, but I am sure receiving $10.00 from every person will do nothing to progress a healthy dialogue.
Faith in God is about hope and a belief in the one who created everything. That faith is rewarded eternally. Instead of focusing on teh negative, realize what God wants for you. You may not know this but Hell was not made for us. Hell in Matthew 25 is a place prepared for the devil and his angels. God meant for us to live with him and before him blamelessly and in love (Eph. 1:3f). So an eternity in hell is the sentence for unbelief and disobedience. As to do I think it is fair to suffer that kind of punishment, consider the alternative. Heaven is an eternity of peace and praise before God. Only two places will exist in eternity, you must choose which one you will frequent.
While these words may do nothing to help you, they have helped me tremendously. God Bless you and I hope those who read this site will find some peace and not be so angry with God.
First of all, why does God have to punish those who refuse to obey? Are we slaves? Are we possessions?
If what you mean is that crimes must be punished, well, then I agree. However, shouldn't the punishment fit the crime? Can you honestly tell me that you have committed atrocities for which justice would demand everlasting torture without chance of parole?
Do you think torture is a proper punishment for a crime?
Surely God's sense of justice should be at least as advanced as our own. What I see in the doctrine of eternal retribution is Bronze Age justice -- it's primative, barbaric, hideous.
And yes, Christians will rejoice to see the sinners in hell: ISA 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
And this quote is attributed to Jesus in the New Testament.
Isaiah's words were not suggesting rejoicing but "abhorrence." In the context of Isaiah, God is comforting his people with the knowledge that they will return from exile and their enemies would be punished. Comfort is a far cry from rejoicing. The words from Isa 66 are also quoted in Mark 9 to show the reality and severity of an eternity in hell.
Prov. 24:17, 18 shares, "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles; or the Lord will see and be displeased, and turn his anger away from him." Both Jesus and Paul wept from the reality of those who were enemies of righteousness. Christians rejoice in the promise of salvation NOT in the condemnation of others. If a verse of the scriptures teaches rejoicing over the eternal torment of another, I would not mind if you pointed it out to me.
As far as the sentence fitting the crime. Do you think it appropriate for a rapist to be raped in turn? Or for a murderer to be killed? Or for a thief to have something stolen from him? If you agree that some punishment should fit the crime then you are in agreement with scripture. God taught the principle of restitution from the Mosaic Law even in the gospels. The saying an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is not a literal exchange. But, if you read carefully in the law, a person was to pay for wrongs committed. Under the Mosaic Law, God even excused the accidental death of another. He would allow the guilty person to live the rest of his days in a city of refuge. As long as the person obeyed God's condition, he lived. If that person left the city of refuge, God's law permitted an "avenger" to take the other person's life. Now, you may still feel that these are barbaric and archaic ideas. Yet, wouldn't a criminal, if he or she were surveyed, offer alternative punishments than the ones given by the court. God has made sure that everyone knows that there is a just recompense for sin -- Rom. 6:23, "the wages of sin is death." Those who wish to live will comply with God's will for life, those who choose to disobey choose to accept God's wrath. There is nothing to balk at if you know ahead of time.
If God is creator of the heavens and the earth, should'nt he be able to dictate the laws that govern his creation. Included in those laws would be punishments for wrongdoing. Trust me, an eternity in hell is not something I would enjoy, so my desire is to follow God and not go there. Such is my faith, my aim, and my hope.
I can respect anyone's decision NOT to believe in God, even to refuse to obey his will. But, that does not change the truth that IF God is real and his word law, he expects his creation to follow it. If that creation does not, even those who claim to be Christians, all will be rightly punished.
To answer the slaves question: In Romans 6:17-18 we must choose who we will serve (Josh. 24:15). If we follow God we become servants (doulos - slaves) of righteousness. If we follow sin, we are servants (doulos - or slaves) of unrighteousness. Jesus in John 8:30f taught that a person who sins is made a "slave" of sin. Now, do not confuse God's use and teaching of "slave" as the same thing that has occurred in American history and still occurs in the world. God gave sobering teachings to both "master" and "slave" in both the old and new testaments. To make it plain - there are only two sides. Pick one and hope it was the right choice.
Nice. And Jesus supposedly used the same words to "confort" people that anyone who didn't get on board with the correct religion would be mercilessly tortured for all eternity.
Again, nice.
You mentioned the book of Psalms. I wonder that you didn't mention the Imprecatory Psalms:
- Psalms 109, and 69 are the two big ones...
- Other seventeen Imprecatory Psalms: 5, 6, 11, 12, 35, 37, 40, 52, 54, 56, 58 ,69, 79, 83, 137, 139, 143.
From Psalm 109: 6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him; let an accuser stand at his right hand. 7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him.
8 May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership. 9 May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow. 10 May his children be wandering beggars; may they be driven from their ruined homes.
11 May a creditor seize all he has; may strangers plunder the fruits of his labor. 12 May no one extend kindness to him or take pity on his fatherless children.
From Psalm 69: 22 May the table set before them become a snare; may it become retribution and a trap. 23 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.
24 Pour out your wrath on them; let your fierce anger overtake them. 25 May their place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt. 27 Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Of course, that fits precisely with Pauls admonition that anyone who doesn't love Jesus should be accursed.
To my "sentence should fit the crime" comment, you either didn't understand me, or you equivocated (thanks Jim). The point I was making is that everlasting, horrific torture, is a heinous crime against humanity, no matter how personally pissed-off your Bronze Age God might be. It's impossible to rationalize that keeping a victim alive forever so that he or she can be tortured in incomprehensible agony throughout all time, just because he or she didn't believe in the correct version of the proper religion servicing the one true god, whomever that might be, if there even is one.
If I live 100 sinful years, how many centuries of torture do you think would be a just punishment? 100? A million? A billion? Nope, no amount of time will be enough to satisfy the wrath and indigation of your loving, merciful, heavenly father. HE just can't stand being disrespected. HE's just got a short fuse about certain things.
There is no reabilitation in hell. There is no parole from that prison. And there is no escape through death. The wages of sin is death, except no one in Christianity dies. Everyone lives forever -- the slaves of Jesus in heaven, and everyone else on a spit in hell.
Concerned, the whole myth is silly. You can quote all the Bible to me you want. I have a considerable amount of the book memorized. I don't believe in it.
The laws you mentioned were not invented by the Hebrews. They borrowed them from the people around them. Laws and human understanding of justice has been evolving for quite some time, and continues to evolve. That's why we don't practice the primitive retributive practices of the Old Testament.
So you have made yourself clear, there are only two types of people on Earth: "True Christians™" and everyone else. And both are slaves.
And here I thought Christians were the children of God. Hmmm. I guess in that case, that makes my children, even the adult children, my slaves.
Again, I don't accept your Bible as relevant to reality.
Why not?
Let me make some assumptions here: I'm betting that you reject the Book of Mormon, the writings of Christian Science, any books from Islam, the Apocropha, all the Gnostic Christian writings ever found, the Illiad, the Greek myths, American Indian stories about the Great Spirit, Buddhist writings... etc., etc., etc.
You, I assume, dismiss everything else as nonsense, no matter how many people believe in those writings, and no matter how true anyone claims them to be. You do this almost without thinking, without a shred of doubt or unease. You dismiss the entire religious history of billions of believers because you believe you have found the one truth.
Well, when you can adequately explain why you so quickly have dismissed all other religions, then you'll be able to comprehend why I have rejected yours.
Are you suggesting one need to choose between the Jewish god El, or the Christian god YHWH?
Between the original Jewish priests, or an early evangelical preacher who twisted the words of the Jewish Tanakh, using his own oral tradition, that fit his vision of what a religion should be?
If you can get past those two, I have about a few hundred more, opposites to choose from, from the inception of the christian religion, beyond the protestant reformation.
It seems there CP, that the selection between all of those opposing choices, is the underlying precept for the thousands of christian denominations, world-wide. I hope you chose correctly, but... that makes all of those other christians... lost, deluded, and ultimately not the "True Christians" they should be.
Does anyone know what we're going to eat when we,(the sinners and nonbelievers, that is) get to hell? French Fries, maybe?
Do they give you a map of where all the restrooms are? porta-jons maybe?
A thousand years or more is a long time to be hungry and hold your piss!
AUGUSTINE
(Christian author and leader from the 4th century)
They who shall enter into [the] joy [of the Lord] shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness. . .The saints'. . . knowledge, which shall be great, shall keep them acquainted. . .with the eternal sufferings of the lost.
TERTULLIAN
(revered Christian leader from 200 A.D.)
What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.
JONATHAN EDWARDS
(famous revivalist from the 18th century)
The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.
ISAAC WATTS
(composer of 600 hymns)
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.
"Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him he said, If thou be the Son of God command that these stones be made bread. But He answered and said It is written Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, and saith unto him if thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, it is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve." Matthew 4:10.
So I say to your request that you are merely tempting christians to prove their love for God by giving 10.00, so get behind me Satan.
Jen
>>>>>
" I have been reading this for a bit so forgive me for not remembering who initially asked for the $10, but I won't be giving you any money for the mere reason you are not asking for money because you need it, you are asking merely to say to me that if I don't give you $10 I am not a true believer. Satan too tempted Jesus
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xxxx" Matthew 4:10.
So I say to your request that you are merely tempting christians to prove their love for God by giving 10.00, so get behind me Satan.
Jen.
>>>>>
Drat. Sorry, Jen - could you repost your bible quote for me? My BS filter filtered it out. Much appreciate it, and so sorry. Thanks, -Wes.
no need for me to repost it, my post is still up for others to read.
Jen
I agree with you completely. Sending me $10.00 would be stupid, asinine, and foolish.
When Jesus made the command to give to ALL who ask, even evil people, even people who didn't need it, it was obviously a less than divine command. It was absolute pure drivel.
Thank you for pointing that out. And thank you for disobeying the lunatic commands of a deluded itinerant peasant preacher.
Maybe you should read a little more of your Bible. If you read Deuteronomy 5. This will give you some instruction, and then read Deuteronomy 6, verse 1 which says "Now these ARE the COMMANDMENTS, the statutes and the judgements which the Lord your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it."
Jen
Maybe you should read more of your Bible.
Mark 16:16, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. "
Jen, Here's another way to show us you are a true Christian (TM). Go to the hardware store, buy a bottle of Drano, and drink all the Drano in the bottle. Then find some arsenic and drink it too. If you are not hurt, I will convert with "all my heart" to become a follower of your god.
Jen, just in case you are a really stupid Christian, DO NOT DRINK THE DRANO OR ARSENIC---IT WILL KILL YOU!! Also, your Pastor, Priest or Christian friends will not be able to save you by "laying hands" on you.
We know there are stupid Christian's out there who have handled snakes in the past, and some of these Christian snakes handlers have died after being bitten by these animals.
Cheers
Drano, Jen, the Drano!!
Jen, girlfriend, um yeah, WTF over? Do you think that WM Dave spent 30 years as a Christian with the ‘Idiot’s Guide to the Bible’ as his only companion?
You’re just one head of the Christian Hydra that shows up here blathering the same fire-breathing bullshit. With your own advice, if you had bothered to READ just one person’s testimony on this site then, maybe, you’d realize that what put the X in front of Christian was reading the smarmy buy-bull.
Almost everyone on this site has read the bible cover to cover. Some have read it more than once.
They drank from it like an alcoholic drinks alcohol.
Oh, and speaking of drinking, I’d only drink the Drano after every amputee spontaneously grew limbs and the world's unnecessary suffering ceased (such as starvation and child prostitution) and big sign on the moon saying "I did it," Nuttin' but love, God. PS. The Torah, Bible, Qur'an - all bullshit.
Jesus was just such a bastard child was he not?
Here's what the Jesus says: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. -- John 14:21.
Jesus commands you to give to EVERYONE WHO ASKS! Do you love Jesus, Jen? Then prove it. I'm asking for ten dollars.
Or, are you a disobedient servant of Jesus? If so, you will suffer many stripes.
I'm just trying to warn you, Jen. Jesus doesn't like hypocrites.
And don't bother responding to this post, it will fall on deaf ears. I won't be back to debate your hatred of Christians.
You didn't show me anything of the sort. I'm sorry, you failed to defend your position at all. I did, however, give you clear demonstration that Jesus indeed did command you to give to ALL WHO ASK. You have just chosen to disobey that command, a decision I agree with.
Jen, if visualizing an imaginary super-duper-friendly-giant-god in your mind who loves you and keeps you as his personal pet project, well then trip happily along in your cloud of mystical fluff. That's your right.
I don't want to live in a religiously drugged out mental state anymore. I'm free of that. A cocaine addict can't comprehend how fun it is to live life sober. A religious addict can't comprehend how satisfying it is to live rationally.
I don't hate drug addicts and I don't hate religious addicts. However, I do hate cocaine. And I hate religion.
Good luck to you Jen. Oh, and you will meet other people who disagree with you. That doesn't mean they hate you.
Peace.
Thanks for the challenge. Rest assured, there are genuine born-again Christians who are radically different today than they were before they were saved, because of an encounter with Jesus Himself. They understand that they have indeed lied, stolen, hated (which is murder, Matthew 5:21,22), lusted (which is adultery, Matthew 5:27,28), and have therefore incurred God's wrath and need a means of escape.
At the very most, your challenge proves that Christians are inconsistent and/or disobedient at times. It does NOT
NOT
NOT
NOT
prove they are not born-again.
I'm asking for ten dollars. Surely such a trivial request is not beyond your ability to fulfill, is it? Is granting such a tiny request, especially in obedience to your GOD so much to ask? Ten lousy dollars?
Chris, you are NOT a true Christians. You are just a talker.
That's one interpretation. I'd like to see for myself whether it's the correct interpretation.
"I'm asking for ten dollars. Surely such a trivial request is not beyond your ability to fulfill, is it? Is granting such a tiny request, especially in obedience to your GOD so much to ask? Ten lousy dollars?"
NOT AT ALL! :-) Assuming you're right, I MUST obey!
"Chris, you are NOT a true Christians. You are just a talker."
And you are judging me.
You have my word, I will think about this and give you $10 if your interpretation is indeed correct. Ten bucks is nothing when it comes to obedience.
If you blatantly disobey your GOD, when you know the command, and have the means to obey, then you are NO CHRISTIAN.
Sorry kid. Time to get right with GOD!
But you have my word I'll look into it.
Well you have to live with that, not me.
It's only ten bucks, Chris. Sheesh.
Simply asking a Christian to obey his or her master and cough up a lousy ten-spot seems to be a ridiculously major thing to do. Look at all the comments from all the Christians either refusing to do it, or making a big show of their obedience when they do it!
Ten dollars!?!
Chris, you and all Christians are full of shit. Unless you get major applause, or a few more jewels in your heavenly crown, you're not even slightly interested in obedience to your god.
And frankly, I don't blame you. I mean, deep down, we all know that Christianity is all pretend.
I have asked the author of the bible to arrange for me to win the lottery a lot of times and he hasn't done it yet. God is supposed to be able to do anything, any time anywhere and all I'm asking for is a lousy one hundred and fifty million dollars.
He owns everything! What would be the big deal about letting me win a lousy hundred and fifty million dollars? Here is a guy who "is" Jesus and speaks through him, and still won't do it.
I have also noticed that he refuses to do anything about all of the suffering and injustice in the world. I wonder if these people who are suffering from horrible diseases, mal-formities and cruelty from others have forgotten to ask him for help?
Do you think he might be out to lunch? Sort of a cosmic lunch? Like for maybe four or five billion years?
Dano (Orphaned by God)
However, to avoid obeying even the most obvious command, Christians fabricate all kinds of justifications for disobedience.
Maybe at heart we all really know that Christianity is just pretend.
"Dano, your theology is infantile! God gives people all the tools they need to help their fellow humans. Hence the command to give to all who ask."
Dano: I agree. My pretend theology is infantile, All theology is infantile. In fact I am of the opinion that the roots of theology lie further back in our brains than infancy!
Dano (Agnostic)
Yes, the Stone Age.
.:webmaster:. (who enjoys using the word infantile in reference to believing in Santa Claus and other pretend entities.)
I will obey Christ whether you are an honest, upright citizen or not. Assuming you're a secular humanist with at least some respect in your community, it's the least you can do to say, "oops."
Is this an elaborate publicity stunt to get pay for your site or is your challenge serious?
What is the point of all this? Do you sincerely think I'm making a killing on this site by asking Christians for donations of ten bucks? Since posting this rant a few years ago, including your contribution today, I think I've raked in a whole 60 dollars. I've also been rebuked and chastened by Christians literally hundreds of times just for having the audacity of even asking.
No, the point of asking for this pathetically nominal amount is to illustrate that the vast majority of Christians will dance around clear commands of their god-man, claiming the command is being taken out of context, or something, in order to avoid fulfilling the mandate to give to ALL who ask.
Personally, I think such a command is retarded. However, that's what Jesus said, and if Jesus is GOD, then it's a non-negotiable.
If you peruse the comments above, you'll see what I mean.
Again, sincerely, thanks.
I guess I answered nicely to quickly...
Wow Chris. Now the true spirit of the True Christian™ comes out.
Threats with the Lake of Fire, no less. oooooo....
How about that 'ole Boogey Man Satan? I bet he's just slavering to get his horns into me, isn't he?
Chris, witches were burned at the stake for having different beliefs in the Middle Ages too. So were Jews. So was anyone labled a heretic by prevailing versions of Christianity. Guess what, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses have been martyred for their beliefs, too. Muslims have also died for their religious beliefs!
None of that proves the truth or validity of a religious belief, only the fanatcial devotion to the religious belief on the part of the martyr and the persecutor. They are both completely nuts.
Anyway, even with the nasty threats of hell, thanks for the 20.
Did you even finish the article?
Recant? Who uses the word recant?
I don't apologize for quoting Revelation. I didn't write the book. You'll have to argue with the author about that. Fortunately for you, you'll get to talk to Him soon :-)
I DO apologize for my sarcastic attitude when I said things like, "But hey, all they really had to do was give ten dollars to a false Christian (oops, I mean ex-Christian)." The Holy Spirit has been convicting me of my attitude in the last hour. There was a general spirit of hostility in my heart. Perhaps you perceived it, perhaps you didn't. The Holy Spirit made me aware, and that's enough.
Christopher de Vidal, you lacked love. "Love (...) is kind." (1 Corinthians 13:4-7 ESV) "The Lord's servant (...) must be kind to everyone. (...) God may perhaps grant them repentance, leading to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Timothy 2:24,25 ESV)
I asked forgiveness of God for my attitude. I know I am forgiven because of Christ's death.
Now I'm asking you: please forgive me.
I love you.
Even if I'm at times sarcastic and fall into the temptation to answer anger with anger, that is because I still wrestle with sin. I was wrong.
I love you, and I commit to pray for you. Every week for the next year I will pray for your financial prosperity, health and general well-being.
And most of all, that you be genuinely saved.
Did you even finish the article?"
Do you mean the entire post, with all 292 comments? Shoot no! Did you mean the article at the top? Yes, I read it, and you said your sister paid you.
If others paid you and you stand corrected, why not be honest and recant? Pull the article off the home page and put a large, bold retraction at the top.
Yep, recant is an old word but I like it :-)
That perhaps is true, but I think you missed my point. My point was not that martyrdom validates a religion. I won't re-type my point, please go back and read it.
OK, well you really are the one who knows if you're being honest. I won't judge you. It seems you are being honest, but you could improve your image by at least recanting at the top and removing the link from the home page.
At the very, very least, you should put something at the top like, "Maybe I was wrong. Some people who have responded make me suspect there are some legitimate Christians out there." That would not give your opponents (Christians) an advantage and it would earn you some respect.
Sigh, back to work.
You probably skimmed my long post which ended in "all liars will have their part in the lake of fire." (a quote from Revelation.) When you came to that point, you probably thought I was closing by saying, "and you, mr. webmaster, are quite the liar!"
NO! Not at all.
I wasn't CALLING you a liar, I was saying "IF" you're not being honest, there is punishment.
I think you misunderstood me. Pay close attention to my words. I said "IF". I was not calling you a liar. I was saying that if you were lying and you knew you were lying, there will be punishment.
I was pointing to some indications that you could be lying, but you have cleared those up and I do now believe you are honest.
Scriptures command us to give each other charitable (good) judgements and not to judge negatively. I was just saying "IF". I hope you can see where the misunderstanding was.
Back to work.
Since Dave allows so many born again true Christians to post on this site (I have seen some hang around for years), and you have proved that you are truly, a true Christian, by donating, I congratulate you for helping out.
I give Dave and this web site, credit for showing me just how silly, and yes, dangerous all faith in mysticism can be. I will probably donate something myself, but I'm on a fixed income, and admittedly very tight with my money.
The catholic church just recently admitted that it was wrong for persecuting Galilao, but his suffering was nothing compared to the millions who were tortured and slow roasted during the inquisition.
I have a hard time with feeling sorry for Christians who go to remote places to convert people, and get killed for it, what I do feel bad about, is all the children who are being brainwashed by religion around the world, and the consequences.
I am concerned that these people will be taught that an apocalypse is inevitable and it will be a self fulfilling prophesy. (The Muslims believe in it too)
I have this problem with "true Christians" though. I, being more than twice your age have seen so many of those who represent "The Faith," and have sworn publicly that they were true Christians, do some pretty nasty things.
Down here in the South, it seems almost, a regular, scheduled segment on the news every night, where they tell about the latest preacher, deacon, or otherwise "Good Christian," who committed pedophilia, adultery, theft, murder etc.
They always have a shot of a neighbor saying to the camera "He was such a good Christian man." I have never seen the neighbor say "What a nice Atheist he was."
It is my opinion that those, possessing a large amount of skepticism tend to be MORE moral, because they don't want to be fooled or taken, if you like, and therefore are hesitant to try to fool or take advantage of others. It is sort of a "Golden rule" thing.
Preachers are in the business of fooling people. "God said this, and God said that" We all know that God ain't spoken to anybody. We know the Garden of Eden story makes no sense, Noah didn't take a billion living things on the arc, etc.
The development of this emotion, or moral feeling, probably has its genesis in the first living creatures that formed the most primitive societies, maybe a million years ago.
Anyway Chris, Congratulations for donating, and I would be a "True Christian" myself, if the Jesus story weren't so "Pagan," and Darwin hadn't figured out Natural selection. Actually, I did consider myself a true Christian for a brief time once, and have been embarrassed about it ever since
Dano (Agnostic till someone can define God)
Shooter: "I don't apologize for pulling the trigger. I didn't craft the gun."
Rapist: "I don't apologize for raping the woman. I didn't make my libido."
Hide behind the "author" (whoever that is, some guy named John, supposedly, and why I'd be meeting him, I can't imagine) all you want, but you are the one talking -- you are the one using the words -- you are the one choosing the passages to quote as a weapon of condemnation and, by the way, judgement.
Why not just say "go to hell!"
Oh, wait, that is what you said... never mind.
Anyway, thanks for the token contribution and for the entertainment. I'll let you know if your prayers are anything more than a complete waste of time.
So what? I never said I’d take the article down. My sister only sent the money to attempt to prove me wrong, not out of any particular love for Jesus. I think, based on your subsequent postings, that your motives were similar. And in that case, the premise of the article still stands.
How can I say that?
Well, now that you've supposedly "obeyed" your master, you're all bent out of shape. You’re royally pissed off! Do you know why you’re so agitated by this? That's called cognitive dissonance. The normal rationality in your head is banging against your ridiculous superstitious fear regarding a mythical flying, un-dead god-man.
I’ll tell you what, Chris. I’ll recant this article and post big bold red and black letters that there are really obedient true Christians out there… if… you… send… me… $10,000.
That’s right, Chris, I’m now asking you for $10,000.
You stated that if I were to ask for such an amount, that it would be nothing in comparison with you obeying your master.
Well, I’m not asking every Christian, I’m only asking you: May I please have $10,000?
You want me to recant? I’ll do it! But, I’ll only do it if you prove your obedience to your master with more zeal than merely coughing up the meager price of an average hot meal for two at a family restaurant.
Or are you only a $20.00 Christian? What’s obeying your master really worth to you? Or, more to the point, do you really believe in your Craptianity.
"You guys are all wacked!!!"
If by "wacked" you mean "intellectually hung better than horses", then you'd be right. It's about time someone took notice of their superior psyches
What a wonderful challenge, a real true test to test the absolute faith of a True Christian, this could have only been inspired from God.
Chris never would I let a measly $10,000 keep me from roasting in Hell for all eternity, No Sir!
One must think, What if I die this instant and I ignored the commands of Jesus, My Personal Savior? Would I be deemed worthy to escape those flames of a burning Hell? Can I Chris, afford to take that chance?
Chris, can you imagine the smell and stinch of burning flesh and sulfur for all eternity and the knashing of teeth and fire and brimstone?
I know there's plenty of people who are in Hell right now and would now be glad to send in the $10,000 and be with Jesus, if they had just done as Jesus commanded.
But instead they let silly material things get in the way like $10,000 just paper with ink on it, can you Chris, afford to let material objects get in the way of your eternal soul?
If I were a Christian, I would surely not let this burden get in my way of eternal salvation to be with Jesus.
Just consider the $10,000 seed money, as the Bible states you'll get a return of ten fold in Heaven.
I've got too many irons in the fire and the Holy Spirit is telling me to let this one go. So I'm sorry if you wrote a reply to my five posts, I won't be reading it.
If, however, there's something you feel you must talk to me about, Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.
I appreciate your challenge for what it did: it forced me to take a cold, hard look at difficult Scripture. How could I be any worse off for doing that? And like all challenges from non-Christians, God will use it to purify His church. So for that, it's very good. I don't think it was a bad question at all, and if other Christians do, understand that they just need to mature in Christ and see it all from God's point-of-view.
Thanks and I'll be praying for you. Prosperity, health, well-being and salvation.
It sure is a good thing you didn't read my request for ten grand! I'm guessing you believe you can use ignorance as a defense at the Great White Throne for disobeying the direct command of your man-god to give to all who ask.
Unless you're lying.
I'll have to hand it to you, your backpeddling approach was original.
Keep praying, it won't do a damned thing, but it won't cost you a dime, either.
"Thou shall not bare false witness."
So now the webmaster has asked you nicely for $10,000, so God can purify his church.
I really hate to see you end up in hell on this one.
Just to really be on the safe side, I would suggest you get rid of your current computer and get a new one, ok?
God Bless!!
"I'm sorry, I have to close my end of the conversation. I haven't read anything you posted, the last thing I read on here was when I said, "Ohhhhh, now I know..." yesterday about this time. Sorry.
I've got too many irons in the fire and the Holy Spirit is telling me to let this one go. So I'm sorry if you wrote a reply to my five posts, I won't be reading it.
If, however, there's something you feel you must talk to me about, Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv."
Dano comments: I was feeling sorry for this 28 year old boy who got his cojones whacked and admittedly stuck his fingers in his ears and went "I DON'T HEAR YOU", and left looking like a 13 year old girl, but after rereading his last post, I noticed that he had the audacity to emphasize the word "must," as in "If, however, there's something you feel you must talk to me about, Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv."
Oh well, even so, he still is kinda pathetic.
Dano (..."the Holy Spirit is telling me to let this one go"... Give me a break!)
love,
true christian girl
Only God can interpert the bible for us. not you.
Then she said:
oh and one thing i forgot to say is that in the bible God also says that we must.......blah, blah, blah, yada, yada.
Young lady, if "only God can interpret the bible for us", then you can't do it FOR US. You just blatantly contradicted yourself, big-time......but this is what we come to expect from theists. No shocker.
Stop making excuses, and pay the webmaster the money he asks for.(Or if your allowance doesn't add up to ten bucks... maybe he'll accept your Barbies in lieu of the monetary donation, but I doubt it.)
Have you ever bought nail polish or makeup and never used it or jewerly?
How about bottled water? The biggest rip-off in the western world.
Have you ever bought shoes or clothes, that you've never worn?
How about candy and ice cream or french fries or potato chips, not good for you, wasting God's money?
How about cigarettes or alcohol, or drugs, not using God's money wisely?
How about concert tickets, not very wise?
How about getting a pedicure or massage, not using God's money wisely?
All those vain uses, you could be applying that wasted money to do God's work?
I suggest you send in the ten bucks before it's tooo late, Jesus is coming real soon.
"boomslang"-first of all im 18 so dont act like you are just so much older then wiser than me especially because 1 timothy 4:12 says"let no man despise your youth but be an example of the believers". and i didnt contradict myself. the creater of the website is trying to tell us what god means. but i am telling u strait-forwardly what the bible says.
kyle- just because i buy one thing i want with money that i earned doesnt mean im going to hell. if that were true, everyone would be living in cardboard boxes.and i do use money for god's work. and ive gone on missions trips to africa which is another way other than money to serve god, SO DONT TELL ME IM NOT USEING MONEY FOR GOD CUZ I AM. the bible verse means that we shouldnt knowingly waste money.and to that last statement about me paying 10 dollars cuz jesus is comming, i know for sure that i dont have to buy my salvation with anything because it was a gift that i have already recieved.
TO ALL ATHIESTS: ok all we seem to be doing is arguing, and its very unproductive because you think you dont need God. But the fact is, theres only one answer. half of us on here are right half are wrong. I have faith that i am right, BUT
IF I AM WRONG, AND WHEN I DIE I GO INTO THE GROUND AND BECOME NOTHING AND CANT SEE, HEAR, OR FEEL, I WONT EVEN KNOW IT. I WONT EVEN KNO I WAS WRONG. BUT IF YOU ARE WRONG, YOU WILL CERTAINLY KNOW IT
sav3d, did you ever consider that both the atheists and the Christians could be wrong? What if "the truth" has nothing whatsoever to do with your religion? What if your god despises people who "believe" out of fear of hell, and admires those who have the courage to stand up to the Bible's barbaric threats of eternal punishment?
And, even after your earlier comment that humans could not interpret the Bible, you're once again attempting to interpret it for us poor, misguided heathens.
Many of us have read the Bible all the way through, some of us more than once. Some of us are ex-pastors.
I suggest that you do as we did -- Read your Bible over and over and over again until you see it for the vile monstrosity that it is. Not the "word" of any god worthy of the name.
Please go to a good four-year college and learn how to write with proper grammar, capitalization and sentence structure.
That's all I've got to say to you.
First of all, I'm not "acting"....I AM older than you, and by the looks of your writing skills, I'm more educated than you, too. Nonetheless, let me be clear: Quoting scripture here is as useless as chicken dung on a door handle, 'k sweets?
Sav3: TO ALL ATHIESTS: ok all we seem to be doing is arguing, and its very unproductive because you think you dont need God.
TO ALL TEENAGED POST-PUBESCENT THEISTS: Whether one "needs" something, or not, has ZERO baring on whether that something exists, or not. Hell, I need to pay my home owner's insurance, so a pot of gold would come in handy about right now. Shall I go out search for rainbows tomorrow? 'Thought not.
Now, unless you have empirical evidence that your holy hand book was authored, inspired, or influenced by a "God"; unless you have empirical evidence that your Jebus exists anywhere other than under that pretty little skullcap of yours, you should really be on your merry way. Toodles.
And none of you are ex-christians. Such a thing doesn't exist.The Bible says that nothing can take away your salvation, so if u are not a christian now, then you never were.
Webmaster-I'm glad to read that my internet grammar is the only thing you are criticizing.I was typing carelessly because I thought adults wouldn't be concerned with a matter so small such as a teenage girls grammar.
Boomslang- I don't need EVIDENCE that the bible is true.
When you told your spouse that you love them, what if they told you to prove it. so you would say "i love you" and give flowers or other nice stuff, but they said you had to show it. but you can't. when it comes down to it they just have to have faith in that love. thats the same way it works with God. He shows us his love and tells us about it in his Word, but theres no real way to PROVE it. you just have to have faith in it. Thats what God wants.
No, your writing skills were the only thing I thought worth commenting on. The content of your postings are too infantile and ignorant to waste time addressing.
After college, come on back and chat. Until then, spare yourself the future embarrassment of having to look back and see what you've posted.
You'll thank me for this advice one day.
You will experience shear exhilaration, in a few years when it dawns on you, that more and more people are freeing themselves from the Christian Death Cult, and are paving the way for you to be free also.
Now with the advent of the Internet it has become impossible to fool every body all of the time, like they used to do.
Your generation is privileged, to be the first that will have a chance to live most of your life, marveling, that anyone could take the nonsense of the Bible seriously.
The ridiculous concepts of blood sacrifice for sin, heaven and hell, and Satan, and Angeles, and all of the illogical, irrational, junk that has ruined millions of peoples lives for thousands if not millions of years, can all be thrown into the trash heap of history.
Your generation will be able to channel the energy previously wasted on blind spirituality, into saving man from himself.
People have always been able to say God did it, and God will fix it, because that is what they were told to think. God, especially Christian God, has been out to lunch for a very long time and she didn't leave a message. You have a chance to do your own thinking now.
You have a chance to walk right up the Jerry Falwell's, and Joel Osteen's, and the Graham family and look them in the eye and say: "Prove to me that you know what God is, and what it wants, Prove it asshole, or get into your Mercedes and go get a real job!"
Dan (God doesn't want or need your worship, it wants your ingeniousness, to figure out how to eliminate suffering)
Well then, that works out perfectly, doesn't it? And why?...because there IS NO EVIDENCE, that's why. The bible is not inspired by a "God", because there is not one single shred of empirical evidence for a "God". How convenient that you "don't need evidence".
Sav3: When you told your spouse that you love them, what if they told you to prove it. so you would say "i love you" and give flowers or other nice stuff, but they said you had to show it. but you can't. when it comes down to it they just have to have faith in that love. thats the same way it works with God.
The difference being, that when I want to tell my signifigant other that I love her, or where I put the extra house key, I don't need to go out and subcontract a bunch of drunk fisherman to take dictation in order to communicate these things--I TELL HER MYSELF. If I should come home from work and need her assistance with something?..she doesn't run off and play hide-and-go-seek, nor does she make me get on my knees and beg for her assistance. If I should offer her flowers, it's not under conditions. In other words, if she doesn't want flowers for some reason, I won't set her on fire. Nonetheless, she's THERE for me through thick and thin....I can see her, hear her, touch her, feel her..and Oooo baby..I can TASTE her!
The point being, my little fundy friend, that "love", and the communicating of that love, is a two-way street. Your invisble friend has had EVERY opportunity in the universe to reveal "Himself" to me, just like "He" allegedly did to HUNDREDS in the bible. Until that happens, I won't "pretend" that "He" exists just so I can feel warm and fluffy, 'm kay?
Sav3: He shows us his love and tells us about it in his Word, but theres no real way to PROVE it. you just have to have faith in it. Thats what God wants.
Please take a day and go hang out in a children's hospital, and tell the dying children about "God's love". I have "faith" that you won't.
Yet you and many, many other proselytizing Christians insist upon in playing the "Turn or Burn" card on non-believers. To quote your very own words:
"IF I AM WRONG, AND WHEN I DIE I GO INTO THE GROUND AND BECOME NOTHING AND CANT SEE, HEAR, OR FEEL, I WONT EVEN KNOW IT. I WONT EVEN KNO I WAS WRONG. BUT IF YOU ARE WRONG, YOU WILL CERTAINLY KNOW IT"
And every single fucking time someone like you uses such a pathetic and disgusting bully-ploy, I delight in the fact that I am not a Christian.
Like it or not, by posting here you are helping us deconvert people. If that wasn't your intention, now might be a good time for you to leave.
Sav3: Boomslang: Actually you are very wrong about that last statment you made about me not helping childeren in the hospital, because i have already done that. I spent 3 summers in Malawi, Africa helping orphans who were dying of AIDS and telling them about Jesus.I love those kids with all my heart and I hope to go back there again. It was very wrong of you to make that assumption.
Please re-read what I wrote, and do it in context to what you said in a prior post. To refresh your memory--you were going on and on about "God's love for us". Now, did I say whether YOU loved anybody, or not? No, I did not....nor did I say anything about YOU helping anybody, or not. What I was getting at, was that I'd love to be a fly on the wall while you explain to a 6 yr old cancer patient why "God"..i.e.."Jesus", blatantly ignores his/her prayers.
Yes, I was talking about your ALL-caring, ALL-powerful, ALL-loving, ALL-compassionate, ALL-knowing "God". I was talking about your "Almighty" deity sitting on his phat Golden Throne in the clouds, while looking down and watching children suffer on their death beds, and doing what???...DOING NOTHING about it. Because after all, ripping them away from their families and letting them die a long painful drawn-out death is a better "plan", isn't it?(don't even attempt to answer this)
Furthermore, and now that you brought it up---what helps prevent the spread of AIDS? Hmmm...well, my first guess would be an "ALL-powerful" being, but since we've established that this "being" is non-existent....either that, or a sadistic lazy prick, we can say that "condoms" help prevent the spread of AIDS, can't we? Oh but wait!....Catholics are opposed to birth control. Perfect. So religious dogma trumps MILLIONS of deaths from disease.
In the end---they'd rather be "right", than save lives. Nice.
Since you say it's not fair for God to allow people to suffer(which happens because of sin, not because God makes it happen),and His allowing for that sufering has caused you to doubt Him, then isn't it interesting how those people who are actually the ones suffering accept God very quickly?
It's because they are sick,dying,starving to death,living without shelter,clothing,or a family.without love.They have no hope except for the hope Jesus gives them.Sometimes the reason God allows suffering is because that is what it takes to make someone realize the only thing they really need. Like Job, for example, who lost everything he had but still loved and served God.
Do your parents know you are hanging out on this site?
You need to tell them, and if they grant you permission to hang out here, fine. Otherwise, please do not post here anymore.
Sincerely,
Dave, the Webmaster
I would tell my subjects to believe with blind faith, and include a warning, or threat to anyone, who attempted to interject intelligent thought into it.
I wonder where sav3dbythecrossx got the idea that God likes people with child like minds.
Surely there isn't anything like that in the bible!
This girl is of the generation who will be running our country in a couple of years.
SCARRRRY!
Dan (Gotta give up this reasonableness or go to the hot place where God teaches tough love)
Yes, it's very interesting. Lying to vulnerable people is an excellent way to control them (and, frequently, their families as well). Interesting... And heinous as well.
Theodicy ultimately comes down to making lame-ass excuses for a god that doesn't do squat to ameliorate suffering -- Most probably because the god never existed in the first place.
If the Biblical god was actually as powerful as Christians seem to think, it doesn't need to punish anyone for anything, let alone for "sin". It would be so powerful that nothing could wound it in the slightest.
And an all-powerful god that takes no action against suffering cannot be called good or loving.
The god of the Bible is therefore limited in power; evil; or nonexistent. Pick one.
Come off it. If you want to have a dialog, then you ought to use a unique name so that we can have a coherent exchange. Otherwise, it doesn't matter very much; scribble what you want and be gone. I fail to see why this has to be explained over and over.
Guess what? You, woohoodaisy, right here, right now, have the authority to walk right up to any of your professors of theology, look them in the eye, and say; "I know as much about God as you. I also know as much as the pope.
I know as much about who God is, and what it wants from us, as Billy Graham, Jerry Fallwell, or Joel Osteen, and all of the televangelist's combined, or for that matter, all of the Saints down through history.
You can't, honestly, tell me anything about God that I don't already know. YOU WOULD BE SPEAKING THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH!
Honey, you cant explain something, that isn't definable.
Dan (Agnostic from Missouri)
Theology is just man's understanding of who we believe God to be, and the different things people have believed over history, and I really enjoy studying it - my professors do know more about that, so I appreciate their knowledge. I don't always agree with them, and sometimes I debate with them. Most of them don't mind.
I guess what I meant was more along the lines that I can't explain it, or understand it, but I'm okay with that. Sometimes I'm not okay, and sometimes I ask questions and wish I had the answers, but usually I'm okay with it. I realize that sounds absolutely ridiculous, but it's true. I'm okay with ridiculous. :)
By the way, my name is Natasha - thanks for changing it so you can't be anonymous - people like me won't be so confused!!
So, what do you think? Did Jesus command Christians to give to everyone who asks or not?
If you're a Christian, then I'm asking you for ten dollars.
And yet, here you are, contributing to the discussion. By the way, have you ever watched a movie, played a sport, read a novel, or done a crossword puzzle? If so, please explain why you engaged in those activities rather than working toward bettering the world.
Anonymous: "Bitterness rots your insides. If you want to reject God, then move on. I have observed that the very things we become bitter about, we become."
That's a baseless charge, Anonymous. Do you know the WM personally? Have you had a single face-to-face conversation with him? I suspect not. Then I suggest you forego the character assassination. It's not very becoming.
Anonymous: "I'm now going out and putting my beliefs in actions by feeding the hungry today. I won't ask for anything in return...."
Yet by telling us about it, you are using your actions to justify yourself to us, aren't you? So you are getting something out of it after all. Funny, isn't it?
Anonymous: "I just enjoy being part of a solution to what ails the world."
One of the major blights on this world is the strife caused by clashing religious beliefs. Have you addressed that problem too? Overall, I'd say ignorance and bigotry are massive problems that plague humanity, wouldn't you? I see this site as being part of the solution to those problems. A very small part, to be sure, but a part nonetheless.
Good day.
It has nothing to do with "vibes", and everything to do with how to interpret the Bible quote in question. "All" is a pretty straightforward word, in my opinion.
That is exactly where I find myself...and it is places like this and others that have helped me to see religion in general for what it is, one big sham. It is hard to leave the big cult of christianity behind...when it's all you've ever been taught/told/indoctrinated with for your entire life.
But, seeing the comments of the "righteous ones", I couldn't be happier to no longer be a part of that bunch of BS anymore.
Oh, and for the person up there who stated how Christ has been around longer than any of the other (imaginary) gods...
Hinduism is oldest religion still being practiced today.
Several other religions are almost as old as Hinduism. Judaism traces its roots back to the patriarch Abraham, but it was Moses (a MAN) who first recorded the Torah (much like the MEN who wrote the bible), the Jewish holy text, in 1,400 B.C.E. Most sources consider the date of the Torah as the beginning of Judaism.
Zoroastrianism is sometimes called the world's oldest prophetic religion. It's certainly one of the earliest religions founded by one person. Scholars are not certain when the founding prophet Zarathustra actually lived. Some believe Zarathustra lived in the 6th century B.C.E., while others trace his writings to the 14th or 13th centuries B.C.E.
India has been a veritable cradle for world religions -- in addition to Hinduism, both Jainism and Buddhism originated in India.
Oddly enough, the two religions that dominate the world today are relative newcomers to the spiritual scene. Christianity began with the teachings of Jesus Christ around 30 C.E., and Islam started in 610 C.E. with the prophet Muhammad's revelation.
Just my two cents on the whole "oldest religion" thoughts.
And WM, thanks!
A note: above I say "for all intense and purposes" you have kept the Scripture in context, however you took it out of its religious and historic context; Jesus was a Jew, speaking mostly to Jews so He and they would have understood Rabbinic Law, which (regarding giving) makes these 5 quantifications: 1)Giving must not be refused, 2)Giving must benefit the person to whom the gift is given, 3)Giving must be carried out privately and secretly, 4)The manner of giving must befit the character and the temperment of the recipient, 5) All there is thst id worthy to be given is of God, from God and for God.
#3 and #4 most specifically address your request here, for Christians to give you $10.00
The Scriptures do not, as you would have folks believe, insist that followers of Christ must, upon demand, give whomever, whatever they ask for.
1) I should have used the word qualify not quantify.
2) While I do assert that Jesus was speaking prdominately to Jews at the time the Scripture statement was made, it is still applicable to Gentile believers(non-Jews). It is necessary that if one is a Gentile believer that you familiarize yourself with religious and historic context of Sripture so that mokers do not lead you astray with these types of arguments.
That was great little tapdance you did to justify not obeying your god.
Applause all around.
However, your god-man said to NOT resist evil, to give to everyone who asks, that if you are sued at court for your coat, give him your cloak also, to give to him who asks of you and from him that would borrow of you to not turn away. The clear implication is that you should give MORE than the person asks, and the giving should reflect what the person is asking for, i.e.: coat vs. cloak; walking two miles as opposed to the one that was requested; etc.
So, again. I'm begging you to please cough up ten bucks. If you truly obeyed your master, you'd give me more than the ten I'm asking for ($20 maybe?). If you don't give me any cash, then you are admitting that you don't believe the command of your god-man, and therefore you are not a true Christian.
It's as simple as that.
I didn't ask for your advice, so instead of obeying your god and giving up a lousy ten dollars, you have become like the man who offers a pat on the back to the man who is asking for a meal.
You also did not address the fact that 1) You have not asked privately for the thing and as this is a public forum I cannot give to you in secret, 2) your temperament and character are not befited to the $10.00 that you have requested.
If I assess a person's character and teperament (which by the way there are several scriptures that call believer's to do-you know the Bible so well look them up for yourself) and they are in NEED of a meal I will do all in my power to get them the meal, when I assess a person that is a mocker and a scoffer and I see that they twist God's word for ungodly gain, I offer to them that which they truly need wisdom, a dose of the TRUTH. You are not in need of $10.00 my friend (using the term very loosely), you are merly in need of salvation, which I cannot give to you. Petition Jesus, He offers that freely for you.
I will offer one more thing on your behalf, prayer.
Okay, so “resist not” doesn't mean “not resisting. Great.” I suppose all doesn't mean all either, as in "Give to all who ask. What it must really mean is to only give to those few whom you judge worthy of giving to.
It's wonderful that you can assess from the plain and simple words of your god-man that because I haven't asked privately for the ten-spot I am not entitled to it. That's a fascinating conclusion to come to. So unless you are asked privately for money, you never give it? Wow, great idea. I bet you get to hold on to the bulk of your capital that way. I'm sure the ministers who plead for your offerings would be pleased to benefit from your wisdom on that one.
Another tremendous talent you've developed is the way you are able to so quickly judge my temperament and character, simply because I ask you for ten dollars. I am thoroughly impressed. You certainly are a gifted man.
I'm wondering, how do you make a determination on who needs your generosity? You truly must have the mind of the Almighty in order to come to these nearly psychic insights into your fellow man on an Internet page.
Seriously, Freak, I agree with your assessment that Jesus' plain and simple command to give to all who ask is asinine. If people did that, they'd become the victim of every charlatan out there. I mean, if a guy said he was a preacher and asked for money to say, build a bigger building, or finance a bloated television ministry, or pay for a nice new Lexus, well meaning people could be severely taken advantage of. It's good that you are rejecting the plain teachings of an obscure, Middle Eastern peasant from the First Century. It shows some hope for your mental health.
Oh, and the prayer thing. Excellent! That way you can tell yourself you are doing something, although you are doing nothing, while blatantly justifying disobeying your god-man and keeping hold of your precious dollars.
You added that Godly wisdom is worth more than ten dollars... You don't believe that. If you did, you'd obey the wise words of your god-man and honor my measly request instead of stubbornly refusing and spouting self-righteously judgmental rhetoric.
You know, Freak, there may be one or two “True Christians™” out there, but you ain't one of them.
But then again, the very book that you use to pose this argument says of you:
Psalm 53:1 "A fool says in his heart, '"There is no God."
Proverbs 18:1-2 "An unfriendly man persues selfish ends; he defiles all sound judgement. A fool finds no pleasure in understanding, but delights in airring his own opinion."
Proverbs 26:11 "Like a dog that returns to its own vomit, so a fool repeats his folly."
Isaiah 32:6 "For the fool speaks folly, his mind is busy with evil: he practices ungodliness and spreads error concerning the Lord..."
So there is no more use for me to debate with you about this or any other matter of faith, to which you are blinded by ignorance, arrogance and hatred.
God's ways are not the world's ways therefore someone so worldly will not be able to comprehend His ways.
Praying discernment and salvation for you.
Not Biblical quotes. Not your own touchy-feely subjective experiences. Actual physical data that we can test in a laboratory and subject to double-blind experiments that can be published in a peer-reviewed journal.
If you succeed, there's a Nobel prize waiting for you.
If you can't do it, then you owe us all an apology for that "false theory" remark.
That's your English lesson for the day.
Freaky, you can't read Greek, can you? You haven't studied Greek, have you? Where did you come by your information that "resist not evil" really means "resist evil?" You can't spell, your syntax is lacking, your knowledge and comprehension of your native tongue is barely adequate. Yet you deign to teach Greek?
Really?
Anyway, I accept all your curses and condemnations. I do not believe in your GOD. I am, according to your moldering book, hated by your GOD and destined for everlasting torment in your god's eternal torture chamber of unconditional love. I was a Christian for over three decades and passed out thousands of Jack Chick tracts in my day. I know about the fiery furnace of horror planned for me and everyone else who thinks gods and goddesses only exist in the imaginations of people.
OK. Satisfied?
Now, may I please have $10.00? Even though I am a non-believer, I am still asking you for this nominal amount. Justify yourself any way you like, but you are being disobedient if you refuse. Apparently you don't really believe Jesus is a god, or you'd obey his commands unquestioningly. Since you question, and doubt, and create ways to make a silly command make sense, it shows there is hope for your ability to come to rational conclusions. Continue down that path, and you'll end up like me.
And, if you think about it, you and I are not so different. You and I both reject the gods of the Muslims, the Pagans, the Shintos, the Hindus, the American Indians, and thousands of other gods throughout the history of our planet. I simply believe in one less god than you.
When you come to understand why you reject all those other gods, then you will, perhaps, begin to understand why so many people reject yours.
WM, Christian do have a right to use God's gift of reason. Why do you think that your argument for "true Christians" with this request is so valid? You make me think of the pharisee's that were trying to condemn Jesus for healing on the sabbath. If you read John 7:21-24, is there any chance you'll see yourself as behaving like those pharisees? You are, these men were blinded by their arrogance and pride. Please try not to be offended. If you truly desire God's wisdom, take that anger, release it and plead with God for help!
Folks, there is a Truth, if you ever release that anger, pride & arrogance (the emotions so often displayed at this site toward Christ) and offer up a sincere plea to our Lord, He'll come rushing to your rescue.
For all of us Christian that hope for everyone's conversion, the most valuable thing we can do is sacrifice & pray. The most valuable thing you can do, if salvation interests you, is release all those ugly emotions that live in your heart and then look up. He wants us all back under His care to a degree that is humanly incomprehensible. He would never force you, He loves you and respects you far too much.
I pray that we all remain in touch with Reality,
Marc
You used the term as gender specific not incorporative, reread your post. But that is what most of your responses boil down to, attacking syntax, redirect attention by noting spelling errors(mine is horrible by the way and you are not curtious enough to provide a spell check), rather than deal point by point as you demand others do.
As to your other question, Yes I do know Greek (Hebrew as well) doesn't everbody? I am not fluent of course, but I know enough (and know where to go when I need more info on the subject) to help me place God's word in the proper context.
Here is what I really wanted to articulate with tis post though, nowhere in my posts did I talk about, imply, or provide information that God hates you or is condeming you to hell, those were your own paranoid rantings. You see, God loves you (that is why Jesus came and died-for you) and is grieved by your hard-hearted, stubborn ways. I add my pitty to that, for what it is worth and will continue my prayers for you and your fans/friends/cohorts, the other - lost souls here.
Asterja,
I pose an equally preposterous challenge to you. You have exactly one minute, from when I post this, to provide to me specifically, physical proof that Socrates existed (the evidance must be here in my hand or you must admit that you are a sinner). There is my challenge to you.
Blessings to ALL of you!
Your ad hominem attacks are very tiresome. For the benefit of those who have not read your lengthy posts in other threads, let me briefly summarize what we've learned about you:
1) You believe the gospel accounts are accurate because you trust them.
2) You believe the Pope because you trust him.
3) You believe in the "apparitions" at Garabandal because you trust the little girls who "saw" them.
4) You admit to having no evidence that your god exists.
5) You assert that there is no evidence supporting the theory of evolution, and you wouldn't believe it even if there was.
6) You believe that Behe's theory of irreducible complexity is scientifically sound.
7) You have never attempted to explain why you do not trust the prophets of other religions.
8) You have never once indicated that you can EXAMINE your own presuppositions.
9) You've promised numerous times that you would stop posting here, and simply pray for us instead.
10) You are shocked and dismayed that we cannot take you seriously.
Do you disagree with anything I just said? I hope not, because everything can be supported by your very own posts. Now, having said all that, if anyone here wishes to attempt to have a "dialog" with this person, all I can say is "Good luck. You've been warned."
Again prayers for and blessings to you.
JF, your post is filled with unsupported assertions and ad hominem attacks, just like Marc's posts. You can assert anything you want about your god; it's all meaningless speculation unless you have some credible evidence or cogent reasoning that such a being even exists.
Suppose I told you that leprechauns dress in green, have bells on their toes, and laugh in a high-pitched voice. Does that go any distance toward convincing you that they are real? How about if I elaborate further: they are jolly little fellows, with a penchant for mischief and chocolate-covered marshmallows. Does that help? No? Okay, how about this: they like to play card games and are masters at hide-and-seek. Now do you believe they are real? (I certainly hope not.)
As for your challenge about Socrates, I accept (although my timing is no doubt off). I know of no hard evidence that Socrates ever existed; I therefore admit the possibility that he was a literary invention of Plato. Now, how does that help your case?
As to your other question, Yes I do know Greek (Hebrew as well) doesn't everbody? I am not fluent of course, but I know enough (and know where to go when I need more info on the subject) to help me place God's word in the proper context.
In other words, you interpret the Bible as you see fit.
Gee, it's *funny(both outlandish AND hilarious) that he should mention the word "absolute" in defining "reality", because if "reality" was absolutely "God", we'd have scientific, empirical, objective, testable, falsifiable, "concrete", evidence for such a "being". Yet---and not to sound like a broken record---but neither Mr. Blinded, nor any other theist, has offered one single shred of objective evidence for the existance of a "god". NONE.
And please, personal testimony is NOT objective "evidence". Can we stick that in our memory-banks? I hope so. Moreover, if groups of little girls seeing apparitions is "evidence" for a Catholic god, then groups of Muslims seeing Muhammad in a cave is "evidence" for an Islamic god. Likewise, then groups of people seeing a giant squid-lizard in a pond is "evidence" for "Nessy", and groups of people who have been abducted by little green men is evidence for real-life Teletubbies.....and on and on and on and on and on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
JesusFreak made the distinction that she is a "she", not a "he", and then followed up with a smattering of scripture from her Holy book.
Okay then, perfect, let's have a look at how women should be regarded according to the "Word of God":
"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)
Hmmmm....I wonder how many Christian priests would set their daughters on fire if they were caught "whoring" around?
"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." (I Timothy 2:11-14)
OuCh! Okay then, it appears that female Christians shouldn't even be allowed to respond in forums like this. 'Sorry...::sniff, sniff::
"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)
So much for equal rights!
"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)
Nice. The Bronze-age answer to "family planning".
And of course, no fundy rant would be complete without this:
"A fool says in his heart, "There is no God." Psalm 53:1
Answer: "Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Matthew 5:22
Of course, all of these quotes might mean the exact opposite in "Greek", or "Hebrew". Yes, the bible was "inspired" by "God", but Mr. Omniscient didn't have the foresight to "dictate" it in all future languages. Yes, let's publish the driver's handbook in Spanish, and worry about translation later. 'Sound good?
As for the Socrates "challenge", I can't prove that he existed, just like I can't prove that Abraham Lincoln existed. But to the best of my recollection, I don't remember accepting the knowledge of either on conditions, namely, being incinerated if I don't accept it.
God 'less!... and may reason find you the both of you!
"I pray that we all remain in touch with Reality,
Marc"
Without a doubt, the funniest line written on this blog in a long time.
Dan
Setting aside all the rabbit trails so as to return to the basic premise of this article, your god-man is purported to have commanded that those who follow HIM should give to everyone who asks.
I am certainly among the "all who ask" and I have asked for $10.00 --a paltry sum. You, in response, have refused. This is the essence of our entire exchange.
From what I was able to glean from your responses, you justify your refusal to honor this command of your god-man because you doubt your god-man could have intended that you should give to all who ask. You believe instead that you are only required to give to some who ask. You have provided no scriptural basis for your refusal. You have provided no inventive interpretation of dead languages for your refusal. You have refused, apparently, because it just doesn't make sense to give to ALL who ask, especially when the one asking (me) is in opposition to your deeply felt religious views.
Although you probably don't (or won't or can't) realize it, we are very close in agreement here. I too think that such a command is silly, foolish, and even potentially dangerous. You and I have only one thing on which to base our opinions against this command: our ability to use our minds; our ability to reason.
So, as it should be, reason trumps faith and obedience.
Together we have used reason to arrive at the conclusion that giving to all who ask is not a supernaturally divine command.
The only difference between me and you is that I have gone down the path of reason, at least in regards to bold, supernaturally based assertions, a little bit farther than you. Should you ever choose to approach all the assertions of your religion with the eye of reason, you may find that you have many many more questions that need better founded and more reasonable answers.
On my part, I will hold good thoughts toward you. I am sure my mental exercise in this regard will be equally as effective as your prayers for me.
Peace.
You, however, are the one making extraordinary claims that defy the laws of science. I have never in all my life seen anyone arise from the dead, walk on water, yadda yadda, and I would guess that neither have you. The pathetic little stunt you're trying to pull is called "moving the goalposts." YOU are the one who must prove that there's an iota of substance in your silly, bloody, and expendable little religion.
1) You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to conclude that no God exists. You don't even open yourself up to the possibility of a creator, despite the overwhelming evidence of design and complexity that surrounds you.
2) You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to believe in pure Darwinian evolution despite no scientific evidence to support this theory. No one has ever demonstrated, even in the slightest, the process or mechanism that would be involved in bringing to existence any of the numerous complex biological systems that have been identified.
3) You do not trust the testimony of any person unless you can verify what they testify for yourself. I wonder just what kind of lab you have to be able to confirm that DNA is a double-helix or that water is in fact 2 parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.
4) You cannot and will not accept the Truth that is being proposed to you because it doesn't interest you. Plain and simple, you don't accept that you are capable of doing things that are against your inner conscience. Why? Because you don't believe that you have an inner conscience that holds moral absolutes. What you do, day to day, is nothing more than the random results of a "pile" of water and carbon based molecules (that make up, Jim) but that thankfully, allow Jim to exist and allow Jim to impose his will on those molecules.
5) You have agreed, multiple times, that nothing you or I say would sway each other's beliefs, yet, despite the fact that I'm not addressing you, you continue to seek me out. I'll tell you why that is, something inside you is hearing the truth, but your will won't accept it.
The final summary of Jim is: Your will, simply won't let God anywhere close to your heart. God knows why and if your inner bearings are still functional, you probably know why as well.
BTW, I most certainly have and do recognize/EXAMINE my own presuppositions. This is why I laughed out loud to Dano's statement "Without a doubt, the funniest line written on this blog in a long time.". Why did I laugh? Because I hear and understand everything you people have written and can appreciate how, from your perspective, all of you consider me and all other Christians, foolish. I don't need to experience a paradigm shift to see where you're coming from, I see it. I've been there. You think that Christianity is a hoax. Unless you wake you, you're in for a surprise. I have been able to ask myself the question "What if we are nothing but the product of evolution?" but I can honestly say that I have never had the arrogance to come to the conclusion that a superior being cannot and does not exist. Have you ever seriously asked the question "What if the bible is true?" and read it within that context?
I think it all comes down to who's feeding you. I hold on to Jesus as my savior and He feeds me joy and peace in a world where no one can avoid suffering. The graces His Church can impart on it's members are the food for eternal life. Outside of His Church, the food is scarce and the land is dry and arid. If you want some of His bread, the bread of life, you'll have to come and get it. He's always waiting for you to turn your will towards Him. Without His food, it's likely very difficult for you to see and hear anything He's trying to say to you. Suffice it to know that He, your Creator, loves you immeasurably and is always waiting.
God bless,
Marc
Apologies for the scenic detour of the past day... I went ballistic when I saw JesusFreak's "false theory" comment. And the reason is, oddly enough, related to the thread topic.
You see, I find it very odd that people claim their religion to be The Truth, and then turn around and find excuses for *not* obeying a specific command in the book which purports to teach that "truth".
Where does all this rationalization end? Really? First, "give to all" gets redefined; then some other commandment; then another... Do you see where this is going? If the believers can't agree on the meaning and ignore commandments when it's convenient to do so, it comes across as pretty fucking arrogant when you claim something else to be false.
Because of the structure of our brains and our limited perspective in space-time, none of us are in a position to know what absolute truth might look like.
Fortunately, absolute truth is not a requirement for day-to-day living. It probably never was, and probably never will be necessary. Think about it: Did you put exactly one cup of flour in that recipe? Did you get to work exactly on time? And so on.
But then, people of faith come screeching up in their Jesusmobile and attempt to recruit the various ex-Christians and non-Christians. They claim superior knowledge from a book of dubious origins and/or from the magic touch of a great big, powerful, invisible, intangible and perennially pissed-off being. We regularly get lovebombed with "Believe in my invisible friend or it'll burn you forever and ever, aay-men."
Seriously, folks. If you're incapable of demonstrating the existence of this holy bogeyman, and you ignore an unambiguous command in the book that you prize above all others... Don't expect us to take you seriously.
1) You...
Who is 'You', Marc? Anyway, this is ME:
..believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to conclude that no God exists.
Nope, not me. I know that there is heaps more information validating other real-world possibilities, and NONE validating the "God Did It" conclusion which you have drawn.
...You don't even open yourself up to the possibility of a creator, despite the overwhelming evidence of design and complexity that surrounds you.
Wrong again. I AM open to the possibility, but there has yet to be any convincing evidence to support such an assertion. The complexity complexity around us (although perhaps not fully understood YET) does indeed have explanation, but YOU have yet to understand this.
...2) You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to believe in pure Darwinian evolution despite no scientific evidence to support this theory.
'Pure' evolution? What the hell is that? People here adhere to different possibilities, but that's neither here nor there. We are all ex-christians, and that is the common denominator here. Personally, I don't give a flying FUCK how we got here. We're here, and that is that. Fact is, perhaps NO ONE FUCKING KNOWS, OK? You wern't there, and neither was I, nor anyone else for that matter. BUT I say that, unfortunately for you, your story does NOT offer any decent answer to this question at all. At least science TRIES to find the answer, and doesn't barf up some cop-out explanation like "God Did It". Even IF some god did indeed "do it", the next step is for you to prove that YOUR god did it the way you *think* it did! So shut up, Marc - you have less of a leg to stand on than ANY scientific theory.
...No one has ever demonstrated, even in the slightest, the process or mechanism that would be involved in bringing to existence any of the numerous complex biological systems that have been identified.
Blah blah. Do your research. Perhaps take some real-world science courses...
...3) You do not trust the testimony of any person unless you can verify what they testify for yourself.
...That's your faulty conclusion. I personally listen to and digest everything. I process all information to form my conclusions. Again, just who is this 'You' you are referring to??
...I wonder just what kind of lab you have to be able to confirm that DNA is a double-helix or that water is in fact 2 parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.
A science lab, you tard. Like those in the real world that have already done these kinds of tests. Has even this science evaded you?? Oh, shit...
...4) You cannot and will not accept the Truth that is being proposed to you because it doesn't interest you.
No - we don't want to accept Marc's "truth" because it answers NOTHING, and can't be verified to be true anyway, so that means we would have to surrender our critical thinking skills to swallow it!
...Plain and simple, you don't accept that you are capable of doing things that are against your inner conscience. Why? Because you don't believe that you have an inner conscience that holds moral absolutes.
Hoo-boy. You have no understanding of me, nor anyone on this site on a personal enough level to make that statement, Marc. So shut the hell up.
...What you do, day to day, is nothing more than the random results of a "pile" of water and carbon based molecules (that make up, Jim) but that thankfully, allow Jim to exist and allow Jim to impose his will on those molecules.
That's what Marc *thinks* we think.
Yet HE believes God made man out of dirt, and that we are nothing but his playtoys that he can kick around and impose his will upon..
...5) You have agreed, multiple times, that nothing you or I say would sway each other's beliefs, yet, despite the fact that I'm not addressing you, you continue to seek me out. I'll tell you why that is, something inside you is hearing the truth, but your will won't accept it.
NOTHING inside ANYONE of us is hearing any truth from you at all. You have YET to back one of your assertions! What do you expect?? What, Marc? What the hell do you expect? All we keep hearing from you is your tired statements of belief - the same old song and dance that EVERY religious person spouts. It's BORING, OK? We've lost interest. You have produced nothing to back your case here. Nothing. You have yet to contribute anything worthwhile.
...The final summary of Jim is: Your will, simply won't let God anywhere close to your heart. God knows why and if your inner bearings are still functional, you probably know why as well.
The final summary of Marc is: "I'm to damn pigheaded to understand what everyone else is trying to tell me! La dee da! Hum ho! Perhaps I'll quote some more bible verses, and make more wild and crazy assertions! Yeah! That's what I'll do!! I'll destroy every shred of remaining credibility I have, while I make lunatic assumptions about other peoples' character..."
...Have you ever seriously asked the question "What if the bible is true?" and read it within that context?
Have you, Marc, ever seriously entertained the idea that YES WE HAVE?? Umm Yes, Marc. ALL OF US HAVE. I am surprised that you haven't figured that out by now. DON'T YOU FUCKING READ?!?
...I think it all comes down to who's feeding you.
We KNOW who's been feeding you!!
..I hold on to Jesus as my savior and He feeds me joy and peace in a world where no one can avoid suffering. The graces His Church can impart on it's members are the food for eternal life. Outside of His Church, the food is scarce and the land is dry and arid. If you want some of His bread, the bread of life, you'll have to come and get it. He's always waiting for you to turn your will towards Him. Without His food, it's likely very difficult for you to see and hear anything He's trying to say to you. Suffice it to know that He, your Creator, loves you immeasurably and is always waiting.
Eech. You can have your distortions if it makes you happy. I happen to love reality, and find it extremely fulfilling without the need for your 'god'. It's obvious by now what you're being fed, Marc, and if I were you, I'd start pushing that stuff to the edge of the plate...
-Wes.
I'll deal (briefly) with your latest rant later. I take it you have no issue with my list of points summarizing your position. Good. Your list, on the other hand, could use a little work. (Thanks, Wes, for the head start.) In the mean time, you might want to think about pulling quotes of mine to back up your assertions; you'll find that you cannot.
By the way, I have never once "sought you out". Your posts are plastered in every thread. I find you offensive, so I confront you when I see your posts. If you don't like being confronted, stop posting here. Very simple.
More later, when I have some time...
You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to believe in pure Darwinian evolution despite no scientific evidence to support this theory. No one has ever demonstrated, even in the slightest, the process or mechanism that would be involved in bringing to existence any of the numerous complex biological systems that have been identified.
I think your problem is you don't know how to accept evolution within a Christian framework, so you have to deny it. The last few popes have said evolution is true and have reconciled it with their religious belief, why don't you follow their teaching?
Okay, "Marc", aka "perpetually obstinate Christian"(because that's precisely what he is) is back, and said:
Let me summarize what we've learned about you.
First of all, just who in the hell is "we"? Please, let everyone speak for themselves, because I highly doubt even the dumbest Christian on the planet wants YOU speaking for them.
Continuing---evidently, you have learned jack-squat on this site, as evidenced in points 1 - 5. So, without further ado, allow me to correct your disorted erroneous f%cktard deductions:
Perpetually obstinate Christian(herein refered to as "POC") said:
1) You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to conclude that no God exists.
Bzzzzzzt! WRONG. Read closely---I DIS-believe in god(s) due to LACK of credible scientific evidence FOR the existance of god(s). Si comprendo? Once more--the Atheist position does NOT say "god" is disproven, but that "god" is UN-proven. 'Follow? Please, remember the difference, and stop shifting the burden of proof. Thanks.
POC: You don't even open yourself up to the possibility of a creator, despite the overwhelming evidence of design and complexity that surrounds you.
Bzzzzzt! WRONG. Obviously, you are still intent on bludgeoning us to infinity with your "lookist" apologetic rhetoric.
Listen up---firstly, because something is "complex" does not mean it was intentfully "designed". Example: A stalagmite formation might seem "complex", given enough time. Hell, it may even "resemble" the statue of David. Okay then, should we conclude that the great Cave God, Abzu, "Designed" the stalagmite with a purpose in mind?
Then there's the lookist argument for God:
Lookist: "Hey everybody, look at that beautiful zebra galloping against that mountain range! Isn't it graceful? There MUST be a God!"
Lookist's nightmare: "Hey mommy, I just did a number 2 in the bathroom, and a woRM came out with the poop!"
So?... there MUST be a "Designer" for a f%cking tapeworm too, right? Male and female created He, them?....a f%cking tapeworm 'kind' rode "the ark"? Blessed is the tapeworm!
You can't have it both ways. THAT is the "lookist's" dilemma; that is YOUR dilemma.
POC: 2) You believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to believe in pure Darwinian evolution despite no scientific evidence to support this theory.
Bzzzzt. WRONG again, dolt. As pointed out to you numerous times, Evolution, both macro and micro, is both theory, and fact....FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT. BTW, Jim Arvo has kindly provided UMpteen links explaining evolution for your personal benefit, but obviously, you've read narry a one of them, so I won't waste another second discussing evolution with you. To do so, would be the equivalent of talking to a cinder block.
Cinder Block said: No one has ever demonstrated, even in the slightest, the process or mechanism that would be involved in bringing to existence any of the numerous complex biological systems that....{blah, blah, blah]
...::yawn::...
POC: 3) You do not trust the testimony of any person unless you can verify what they testify for yourself.
Yet, YOU "do not trust the testimony" of Joseph Smith(Mormonism), L.Ron Hubbard(Scientology), or Rael(Raelianism). Why not, Mr. "OpenMind"? Why not "believe" those other people's testimonies as "Truth"; why not take it on "Faith"? If you have any unbridled brain-cells left, gather them up and THINK objectively about it for a change.
POC: 4) You cannot and will not accept the Truth that is being proposed to you because it doesn't interest you. Plain and simple, you don't accept that you are capable of doing things that are against your inner conscience. Why? Because you don't believe that you have an inner conscience that holds moral absolutes.
Seriously then, why aren't ALL non-believers out killing, robbing, and drop-kicking cats and dogs, since we don't adhere to your alleged "Divinely inspired moral absolutes"? 'Got an answer for that one, Einstein? Furthermore, if, as you claim, we get these "moral absolutes" from "Yahweh", why is it that out of the 1,200 or so "Christian" denominations, so many fall on opposite sides of the fence concerning things such as abortion, women's rights, death penalty, war, etc, etc?
BTW, earning a living on "the Sabbath" is a "SIN"..ie.."morally wrong", according to your holy handbook. Yet, what does YOUR "conscience" tell you about such an act being "morally wrong"? That it's a pretty f%cking absurd "law" in this day and age, I would hope.(not banking on it, though)
POC: What you do, day to day, is nothing more than the random results of a "pile" of water and carbon based molecules (that make up, Jim) but that thankfully, allow Jim to exist and allow Jim to impose his will on those molecules.
I'm thankful Jim Arvo exists, too...and I especially await his shredding your pathetic "projecting" argument to bits. In the mean time, I'll just reiterate how disgustingly sad your little life must be to feel that you have zero control; zero purpose; zero net worth.... that is, unless the whole universe was "Designed" just for Marc, and he is "acting out" a plan for his Master so he can be rewarded like a little puppy later on. What a pathetic existance.
Marc(To Jim Arvo): 5) You have agreed, multiple times, that nothing you or I say would sway each other's beliefs, yet, despite the fact that I'm not addressing you, you continue to seek me out. I'll tell you why that is, something inside you is hearing the truth, but your will won't accept it.
This was obviously not aimed at me, no, however.... it's quite possibly the most heinously inaccurate assessment I've ever heard on this site, especially considering who it's aimed at. ROFLMAO!
...::in McCoy's voice::..
"By golly, Jim!....there's only three hours before the ship blows up....just accept the Truth!"
He should have his own thread here, because he is the perfect example of how cults capture and destroy minds!
Dan
You don't want to meet Jesus yet, do you?
If you only remember one thing, try to remember that He loved you first and that His mercy is always upon you. He just wants you to give a little love back to Him...
Blessings,
Marc
I now have a little time, so I'll respond briefly to your comments. First, I'm quite happy that you attempted to summarize my position; in fact, I should have thought to coax you into doing it earlier. You see, one of the best ways to gauge somebody's willingness and/or ability to engage in a meaningful dialog is get them to state what they think the opposing view is; if they completely butcher it, even after it has been laid out for them, then there is little hope of anything coming of the dialog.
Now, in your case Marc, I and others plainly laid out numerous points, not once, not twice,but in some cases three times and more. Yet it seems you cannot bring yourself to express those simple ideas, which is a prerequisite to responding to them in a meaningful way. A couple of examples will suffice, as I see no reason to respond point-by-point. You said that I "...believe that there is sufficient scientific evidence to conclude that no God exists," which is precisely the opposite of what I said. In fact, I've been quite clear about that from the start. You also said that I insist on verifying someone's testimony myself, yet I never once suggested such a thing. If you recall, Marc, I asked you many times to explain why you trust certain witnesses and not others. I gave you all the leeway in the world to answer that, and you never came near it. As a third example, you continue to misquote me, claiming that I "agreed, multiple times, that nothing you or I say would sway each other's beliefs." You apparently never read (or perhaps never understood) my remark, which I even carefully explained, for your benefit, in a subsequent post.
This presents me with a dilemma, Marc. I cannot help but conclude that one of two things must be the case: 1) You are being willfully ignorant (perhaps with the aim of being maximally annoying), or 2) you haven't the interest/patience/aptitude to grasp what people say to you unless it is in agreement with what you already believe.
If it's the former, then there's little point in trying to set you straight, is there? If it's the latter, then there's even less point in trying to set you straight. Marc, if you cannot grasp the most basic elements of what is being said to you, how is it that you expect to participate in a dialog? Honestly, it perplexes me. One can grasp an argument without agreeing with it; don't you see that?
I think everyone who has been paying attention here can state what your position is; reading a couple of your posts is sufficient to glean that you have an abiding belief that the god of the Bible exists, and that you see this being as exerting influence in your life and revealing himself through nature (e.g. natural theology). Moreover, you believe that there are trustworthy witnesses to various supernatural phenomena, such as the resurrection of Jesus and apparitions of Mary. I (and others) could make a rather lengthy list of things that you hold to be true. We hear what you're saying, Marc. We understand your position. We grasp what you believe, and to some extent why (albeit not perfectly, of course). However, the reverse is apparently far from being true, given your summary above.
One final remark. You said "BTW, I most certainly have and do recognize/EXAMINE my own presuppositions.", in response to my repeated assertions to the contrary. It's one thing to make such a claim; it's quite another to demonstrate it. After dozens of lengthy posts, Marc, you managed to show one instance of acknowledging a presupposition, but you've not shown the slightest inclination to question why you hold a single one, even after extensive prompting.
You've made it painfully clear that our words have absolutely no effect on you, which means that you are here to speak and not listen. That's what I find offensive about you. That's why you have no legitimate business here except, perhaps, to illustrate just how insular religious indoctrination can be. That point you've made blazingly clear, Marc. But then, all of the regulars here already knew that; all we can do is look at your posts and feel glad that we are no longer where you are now. Maybe one day you will see it too. Or maybe not. Either way it's of no concern to me, as you can choose your own path. Wouldn't it be grand if you could reciprocate!
I want to ask you something
1. When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
2. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
3. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.
4. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
Which group do you belong to?
kls
I will answer your question with a question. Please read the following quote:
"Islam is the only religion Allah accepts from His slaves and the only religion He ordered His slaves to follow. The one who performs the greatest right of Allah on the slave by worshipping Allah alone, not taking any partners to Him, and believing in the message of the Prophet Muhammad, will be granted everlasting bounties in Paradise. He who takes for himself a religion other than Islam and dies on that status will be a loser on the Day of Judgment and his eternal abode is Hellfire, where the torture does not cease nor decrease. Allah does not forgive the one who dies non-Muslim, nor will any of his good deeds done in this lifetime be accepted from him. -- Surat Muhammad, Ayah 34:"
Now, I would guess that you think that quote is complete and utter nonsense and if I were to ask you which camp you reside in, strictly based on the quote, you'd say it doesn't make any difference because the statement is nothing but the statements of a controlling religious cult without any roots in reality or truth.
So, if I've guessed correctly, then you have your answer.
Now, may I please have ten dollars? Thanks in advance.
I prefer you answer me with an answer and not with a question. I would like you tell me what did you think about the 4 groups I mentioned when you were a christian.
kls
That's too bad: your Lord and Savior loved to answer questions with questions, usually following with “then neither will I answer your question” when they refused to answer (as you have done).
Dave has already implicitly answered your question, but I have taken the liberty of answering your question for my own experience.
For my part, I fell into group 5 (an adaptation from group 4, which is a misrepresentation of the truth, as far as I'm concerned):
5. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He rejoices and revels in the simplicity and goodness of the seed, which quickly grows large; and truly, honestly, adores, loves and worships the Sower who planted it.
Over time, however, this soil discovers that the mighty tree's fruit, which upon first inspection was sweet and delicious, and therefore good, is actually found to contain a subtle poison. Not only that, but upon closer scrutiny and testing of the tree, he discovers that it is thoroughly infected with a sickening fungus.
The soil further discovers that the good and sweet tree is the product of a seed that had already been present in the soil before the Sowing (which, rather than being the work of a Sower, turned out to be the work of infected trees from other “good” plots of soil); and that what had been Sown was not a seed at all, but the spore of the fungus that had infected and manipulated the tree.
The soil, therefore, being unable to completely destroy the tree and begin anew, is relegated to scouring the fungus from the tree, thereby reducing the poison it injects into the fruit. He may never be able to completely remove the fungus, but at least he can distinguish the true good from evil, and is no longer deceived by the fungus about any Sower or His supposed seed.
You obviously belong to group 1.
"1. When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path."
There was no need of so many words. I was asking the webmaster...
kls
You obviously enjoy forcing people into constructed boxes in which they do not fit.
The webmaster has already answered your question; your refusal to hear or comprehend the answer, or perhaps to accept it, is hardly his fault.
And, as you have clearly demonstrated that you prefer your own preconceptions over actually evaluating potential truth, you can hardly blame any of us if we choose to ignore your silly questions in the future, much less constrain ourselves to your false choices (cf "false dichotomy").
Well, it´s abvious you fit in group 1. I do not force you. You just belong to this group.
I was asking the webmaster... "I would like you tell me what did you think about the 4 groups I mentioned when you were a christian." No answer yet.
You none christians can only see what you want to see, but when it comes to simple answers you prefer to flee or argue. I want an answer. Answer my questions, please. I posted another question on this website asking for a prove that Jesus is not the One He claims to be and I haven´t recieved a meaningful answer yet. Actually I haven´t recieved any answer :)
As I see things, only because some group of people on this website (no matter how large is it) doesn´t believe Jesus is the One He claimed to be that doesn´t mean He is not the One He claimed to be, right?
Now, please concentrate and answer the things I asked and not something else.
And again, if the webmaster really needs 10 dollars he´d better go to work and stop begging for such a low amount of money.
kls
I never run from question. I welcome them; especially from Christians. In my opinion, they don't ask nearly enough questions.
kls: "I posted another question on this website asking for a prove that Jesus is not the One He claims to be and I haven´t recieved a meaningful answer yet. Actually I haven´t recieved any answer :)"
I've definitely answered that question before, although I don't remember if it was to you. Here is my plain and simple answer. I cannot.
kls: "As I see things, only because some group of people on this website (no matter how large is it) doesn´t believe Jesus is the One He claimed to be that doesn´t mean He is not the One He claimed to be, right?"
You are absolutely correct.
kls: "Now, please concentrate and answer the things I asked and not something else."
Ask away! I'm game. But you will need to agree to answer some of my questions as well. Do we have a deal?
I see you asked a "which group?" question above that you are apparently seeking answers to. I missed that before. I don't want to make you repeat your question, so I'll answer it as best I can.
Since the questions are clearly metaphorical, I'll take the liberty of interpreting them in a way that makes sense to me. If you intend something else entirely, then please be as specific as you can, and I'll try my best to reformulate my answer. As stated, I'd have to say that I see myself as being in group 4. Here is how I interpret the metaphor: I see it as asking whether one is receptive to knowledge; that is, whether one's thinking provides a fertile environment for "seeds" (ideas) to take root and flourish. I'd like to think of myself as always being receptive to ideas (at least I try to be), and nurturing them as best I can. Of course, my idea of nurturing ideas may be a bit different from yours. To me, the best way to nurture an idea is to gradually expose it to greater and greater scrutiny. Good things usually come from critical thinking--at least in my experience. Even bad ideas can shed a lot of light once it is clearly understood why they are bad.
I hope that answers your question. If you want clarification, or wish to rephrase your original question, please feel free.
Best wishes.
That is stereotypical, biased, myopic, and outright unintelligent. Here, which group do you fall into, that keeps you abiding to Christianity;
1-I like the doctrine, because it defines my identity, and I don't have to think very hard.
2-I like the social welfare, it allows me to have friends; since, I would have no friends because of my low self-esteem and lack of individual identity.
3-I grew up in church and was given religion, I'm still stuck in the indoctrination loop, and can't even understand this group, because I am not mentally free to do so.
Well, it’s obvious you fit in group 1. I do not force you. You just belong to this group.
kls: "You none Christians can only see what you want to see, but when it comes to simple answers you prefer to flee or argue."
You need a simple answer? Okay, you.
kls: "I want an answer. Answer my questions, please. I posted another question on this website asking for a prove that Jesus is not the One He claims to be and I haven´t recieved a meaningful answer yet. Actually I haven´t recieved any answer :)"
A no answer is an answer; prove that it isn't.
Oh, and the Jesus thing; you have to qualify yourself as one capable of presenting the topic of Jesus - else, your words and even question are meaningless.
So, how do you prove yourself worthy to present the topic of Jesus?
kls: "As I see things, only because some group of people on this website (no matter how large is it) doesn’t believe Jesus is the One He claimed to be that doesn’t mean He is not the One He claimed to be, right?"
Until you are able to prove yourself competent to establish the word Jesus, as something "more" than a mere word; it exists as nothing but a word, you know, in the beginning was the word, and the word was... kinda' thing.
I answered your question. If you had ears to hear, you would have understood my answer. To make my answer clearer: I don't believe those statements you wrote were spoken by a deity. That parable was written by a man, a religious leader, and as such holds as much authority for me as any other religious writing from any other religion (i.e. none). Therefore, when you are able to explain to me why you ignore the Islamic quote I gave you, then from your own mouth you will have a detailed answer as to why I ignore your Christian quote. To be blunt, it doesn't make any difference what I think now about that parable or what I thought as a Christian about that parable, because that parable is just a silly parable written by a primitive religious cult leader.
Now, of more importance: Why do you disobey your god's clear command to give to all who ask? I am asking for a measly ten dollars. I'm not asking for 10% of your income. I'm not asking for your time or your talents. I am not asking for you to worship me, to have all your thoughts constantly on me, or that you attend thousands of meetings where you humble yourself before me -- I just asking for $10. Your god-man said to give to all who ask. I am certainly one of the "all."
What I am seeing from you is that you lightly ignore the teachings of Islam and you arbitrarily dismiss the teachings of Christianity. What religion are you promoting anyway?
I am a teacher in a school here in Mexico. One of my students, 17 years old girl was absent for about 3 weeks. One day she showed up and I asked her what had happened. She told me she had had a car accident and I asked her how was she. She told me she felt terrible for one of the girls who were travelling with her in the car is in coma after the accident. Doctors told the parents of the girl that their daughter was not going to live more than 36 hours. Anyway, the girl stood alive for more than one week. I told my student that I could pray for her friend and that Jesus can take her out of the coma. She agreed. I prayed. All the class prayed. We agreed that the girl is not going to die but will live.
Today I asked what happened with the girl we prayed for. Well, she went out of coma last saturday, my student told me. Who did it? Who took her friend out of the coma? Jesus of course.
Which reminds me of what happened to me at 18 of June 1992. I was trying to kill myself using pills which in Bulgaria (my motherland) are called Diazepam. I don´t know if pills like this exist in USA or all the rest of the countries the visitors of this website are from. Diazepam is a sleeping pill. I took 180 pills of Diazepam that day, 20 mgrms each. Someone found me on the street. 4 days later I woke up in a hospital and my parents told me that doctors told them I was not going to live. When I woke up I was completely blind. Doctors told me: well, you are going to live and it´s a miracle, but you will have problems with your kidneys and liver until the end of your life. The worst part is that you are going to be blind. You wont be able to see. Never. Doctors told me this. Meanwhile (I was not awared of that) a church was praying for me. I have a friend who is a christian. He told the church he was part of at that time they should pray for me for i was dying. Well, I´m obviously alive. I´m not blind, I have no problems with my liver or kidneys and I never had. Who kept me from dying that day? Jesus, of course.
Dave8,
that´s my answer of your question: "So, how do you prove yourself worthy to present the topic of Jesus?"
I will not answer you other way.
To all others I will be answering you during the next week for you were really active talking to me. Which is very kind.
My name is Martin. I am Bulgarian, I live in Mexico and the name of the student which friend was taken out of coma last saturday is Jocelin. She is 17 years old and she lives in a city near the city I live now. I will ask for the name of the girl that was taken out of coma and I will post it the next saturday for all of you. And remember:
Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
kls
Well, and there we have it. Martin, you never met Jesus? You never met someone else who met Jesus? You have words that spell out Jesus, but you can't link them to your miracle, because you have never established an understanding or baseline to read the/a signature effect for a Jesus, other than in words.
If the story is a true event, then thank Nature, she works in mysterious ways. Oh, and if you need to know about the miraculous nature of the human body, and its ability to recover from trauma, just ask, I'll send you some stories of people who don't pray at all and have astounding stories of medical recovery.
Oh, why don't you obey your bible, and pay the webmaster?
You are obviously a very young guy.
“Martin, you never met Jesus? You never met someone else who met Jesus?”
If I tell you now ( let´s imagine) that I or someone I know met Jesus can you prove that me or the other guy didn´t meet Jesus? Can you prove that it was not Jesus who I or the other guy met? Can you prove Jesus is not the one He claimed to be? Do you know someone who can prove it? Do you know someone who can prove that me or a friend of mine did not meet Jesus? Do you know someone at all who can tell someone that the One he met was not Jesus?
How can you prove that it was not Jesus who kept me alive and it was not Jesus who helped my student´s friend go out of coma?
Nature is not someone. Nature is something. Laws were established in nature by Someone who has the capacity to establish such powerful laws. The One who created nature. If it was up to nature itself I would be dead since the day I took 180 (a killing doze) pills of Diazepam. Ask any doctor in the USA or wherever you are from and he´ll tell you. Nature is helpless in situations as these ones, man.
Dave8, webmaster,
10 dollars:)
There was a time when Jesus (the One and only God) went to the desert and was fasting there for 40 days. At certain time devil came to Him and told Him: "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." If you are the Son of God… Jesus was the Son of God, anyway. There was no need to prove the devil that He is the One He claims to be. There was no need to do something to prove it to someone. This is a FACT. Jesus answered: "It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” I´m interested in something-would you both respected Jesus more if He had commanded the stones to become bread? Would you really, really think: “wow, this really, really is the Son of God. Behold, devil went to tempt Him and he really tempt Him.” It´s the same old story, webmaster. I am a true Christian not because I will send you 10 dollars or because I obviously won´t but because I believe in Jesus Christ. He paid for me and converted me into a Christian and paying to a tempter to prove something I already am is not adding anything to my being. I would answer you like this: It is written: “do not throw your pearls to pigs.”
webmaster,
“I'm not asking for 10% of your income. I'm not asking for your time or your talents. I am not asking for you to worship me, to have all your thoughts constantly on me, or that you attend thousands of meetings where you humble yourself before me -- I just asking for $10. Your god-man said to give to all who ask. I am certainly one of the "all."
Jesus NEVER asked for 10 % of my incomes. Read the New Testament. Your thoughts can be on Him, because there is actually nothing more interesting than thinking about Him. It´s not a requirement. It´s the Holy Spirit who lives in you. Well, He does not live in you exactly but in a person who believes in Jesus Christ, a Christian.
The Islamic quote:
I do not know where is this quote taken from. Let´s read it one more time.
1. "Islam is the only religion Allah accepts from His slaves and the only religion He ordered His slaves to follow.”
Jesus has no slaves but friends.
We have to follow only Jesus and not Allah, someone who appeared like 600-700 years after Jesus and until now is fighting against everything that was based on His teachings. One recent example is 9/11.
2. “The one who performs the greatest right of Allah on the slave by worshipping Allah alone, not taking any partners to Him, and believing in the message of the Prophet Muhammad, will be granted everlasting bounties in Paradise.”
Don´t know what do you expect to hear at that point. Allah is not God, Muhammad is a prophet but not of God. You can worship Allah as much as you want without any result and you can worship Jesus and see results in your life. Do it and you will see. That can be proven.
3. “He who takes for himself a religion other than Islam and dies on that status will be a loser on the Day of Judgment and his eternal abode is Hellfire, where the torture does not cease nor decrease.”
We do not have to wait until dead only to see that something is not OK with Islam, man. Just look at the Islamic world and you will see the way they live. For most of them there will be a very little difference between the way they live now and the way they are going to live after they die. The main difference is that after they die they are going to suffer forever and while alive they are going to suffer only until the day they die. That´s a very sad statement and I´m sorry it sounds that bad but it´s true. That´s what devil wants. He wants all the mankind living as in Afganistan. Or who knows, maybe as in North Korea, where Jesus is not Lord either.
4. Allah does not forgive the one who dies non-Muslim, nor will any of his good deeds done in this lifetime be accepted from him.
Allah has neither power nor authority to forgive.
Hope that answers your questions.
Jim Arvo,
We have a deal. Ask! Christians do not know everything. Christians know the truth.
Sorry if I missed something.
You called me a devil and a pig. That's not very polite. It is a typical Christian behavior, however, to pick verses out of context and use them as weapons against people who don't believe in your fantasy.
If I read your response correctly, you disbelieve in Islam because, you disbelieve in Islam. You realize that Islam is a ridiculous man made religion, but you seem unable, or unwilling, to see how ridiculous your own religion appears to others.
Slaves:
Luke 12:37
”Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.”
Luke 17:10
"So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"
Romans 6:19
I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
But
It makes no difference if Allah has slaves and Jesus has friends, as they are both just men starting up a religion. That is the point I was apparently pointlessly hoping you’d understand.
“Allah has neither power nor authority to forgive.”
And you believe that Jesus does have that power and authority, right? Why do you believe Jesus has that power and authority? Because someone who wrote a story about him said so? You believe because his followers said he is a god? Is that all it takes for you to believe in a religion, to have someone from 2,000 years ago say it's true? Islamics say their religion is true. Why not believe them? Why are you so sure your religion is the one and only truth? Is it only because it is not as old as your religion? There are many, many religions older than Christianity. Do you think you’d believe Christianity was true if you’d been born and raised in Iran? Why or why not?
How old exactly do you believe I am? What do you consider "very young"?
How did you conclude my age? What rigor do you employ to reach a high level of veracity on your claim? Do you use such rigor to test or research your theist/religious belief?
Let’s suggest very young to most people is less than 30 years of age; of course, that would make you wrong in the assessment you made. I suspect that you come to many different wrong conclusions, using the same thought process you have shown here in your very first sentence.
Dave8: "“Martin, you never met Jesus? You never met someone else who met Jesus?”"
eftim: "If I tell you now ( let´s imagine) that I or someone I know met Jesus can you prove that me or the other guy didn´t meet Jesus?"
If I tell you now, to meet me at my favorite clinic, to make your statement, and I pull out a polygraph, EMI, sodium-pentothal and a few other toys, I think I'd be able to come pretty damn close to the veracity of your claim. That is, if you are being deceptive, and haven't been trained to lie while keeping a straight face, I hear there are some great teachers in the clergy these days.
If you are mentally unstable, for a myriad of reasons, then obviously testing you is of no use, I would not be able to prove anything that you say without finding corroborating evidence from a secondary source.
By the way Paul was portrayed as mentally unstable by the Orthodox Jews, and even in the bible itself - Paul was incarcerated for mental rage portrayed in public.
If you have hypnotized yourself or have been indoctrinated into belief, and you hallucinate as a result, is the hallucination real? Sure, in your mind, it would definitely appear real, and as long as you kept it in your mind, then most people would allow you to live in peace.
However, if you suggest that other people should believe you; then you have to meet "their terms" for proof. My terms, require more than words on a piece of paper, I require multiple sources from oppositional parties who are disinterested in the outcome of their claims.
I'd require the evidence to be proportional to the claim being presented; if it is of a god that was claimed to have changed the Universe and all of humanity, I'd like a personally signed biography, a painting in that era of the god, a statue in that era of the god, anything of that era that "represented" the particulars of that god, yet, there isn't even a book in the bible written by the very Jesus you suggest existed.
You've come to this blog, and posted the word "Jesus". I see the "word" Jesus, and nothing more, sorry, that doesn't cut it for me. I can't prove that you don't believe what you say, but I can't prove that you aren't mentally unstable at the moment, but... give it a little time, if you keep posting.
eftim: "Can you prove that it was not Jesus who I or the other guy met?"
See previous statements, and again I have just as much evidence to believe you are mentally unstable, as I currently have for the veracity of any claim you make.
eftim: "Can you prove Jesus is not the one He claimed to be?"
I don't have any evidence that He even existed, all speculations beyond this point are attributed to other people and what "they" claimed him to be.
eftim: "Do you know someone who can prove it? Do you know someone who can prove that me or a friend of mine did not meet Jesus? Do you know someone at all who can tell someone that the One he met was not Jesus?"
Again, if you are trying to convince "me" of your claims, because it is "you" who came here, then it seems only logical that you must cater to my level of rigor for validating evidence.
Your words don't do it, however, maybe you personally were willing to just arbitrarily accept someone else’s' words, and build an entire belief system, but of course... that's you, not me. I am not challenging the level of conviction you have in your belief, but that isn't proof enough for me.
If you wanted to argue that Jesus is an Ideal, and not necessarily a physical entity with all the Christian attributes assigned, then it would be much more interesting. However, ideals are based on personal desire, and need, your ideal would just reflect such, and would only prove to me the underlying needs and desires you have to support your ideal(s).
eftim: "How can you prove that it was not Jesus who kept me alive and it was not Jesus who helped my student´s friend go out of coma?"
Sorry, it's "your" job, once again, to "prove" to me, that the letters J-e-s-u-s, represent an external force involved with you and your student's recovery. So, can you explain why so many people "die" as a result of believing in the word Jesus?
And, please, don't insult anyone's intelligence by giving a simpleton answer like; it must have just been their time to go, as "if" you actually believe that is an "answer", that's a guess. And that very guess is the same one you would use to guess when Jesus was saving people as well. So, again, the veracity of your claim(s) are being challenged, not your conviction, believe what you want - I need more than your conviction, pressure sales do little for me.
eftim: "Nature is not someone. Nature is something."
Oh, well, I was being sarcastic; however, it appears you want to get into a discussion on substance. So... how many substances do you believe comprise the Universe/Nature? Surely, you have to suggest more than one, else there couldn't possibly be either a “someone” or "something", that would show internal conflict in your logic, and of course, that would make you look intellectually inept.
However, I do await your response, since I am currently trying to mature to your most eruditious insight. Perhaps, we should see your next publication on this topic being nominated for a Nobel Prize?
eftim: "Laws were established in nature by Someone who has the capacity to establish such powerful laws."
And, why wouldn’t it be just as logical to suggest inversely that powerful laws in nature established someone?
eftim: "The One who created nature."
Or Nature is the One... care to discuss how you believe your mind has the capacity to talk about "more" than the context of Nature? I mean, you are living as part of Nature, right?
eftim: "If it was up to nature itself I would be dead since the day I took 180 (a killing doze) pills of Diazepam. Ask any doctor in the USA or wherever you are from and he´ll tell you. Nature is helpless in situations as these ones, man."
Really and how did you come to that conclusion? Please explain how you aren't part of Nature, how the doctor that assisted in your recovery isn't part of Nature, how the very environment you were hospitalized in, wasn't part of Nature... which part of your experience in the whole matter, from your birth until "now", wasn't part of Nature.
I am glad to here that the young girl came out of her coma, and that you survived your brush with death.
Here is another perspective.
Last month my 25-year-old brother died from complications of non-alcoholic cirrhosis of the liver. An internal bleed weakened him and put him into a coma. My grandmother, who has been a stout Christian for 30+ years prayed over him feverently, moving even an ex-christian like myself to tears. My uncle, another faithful christian, prayed over him. My uncle's church prayed for my brother. Where did all this prayer get my brother? Nothing. He died anyway.
So you see, according to your god, as long as you ask for anything in his name and believe, you will receive. Do you suppose my Christian relatives didn't pray hard enough, believe enough, or whatever? Was Jesus napping while my brother was dying?
Please explain to me, Marin, why your jesus chose to save you and the young girl but not my brother.
Michelle
We were not supposed to grin but to believe. I don´t know why someone I do not know is dead. May be other people on this website could give you the correct answer. Of course Jesus is the guilty one, who else could be. Even though isn´t sure Jesus exists, He is the guilty one. For all things. Forever!!! People are blameless, devil doesn´t exist and if by any chance he exists, he is not guilty for anything. He is the good guy. Jesus is the bad one.
kls
sorry man, i didn´t see you answered me. Well, the only thing I was wrong is your age. I thought you were 19.
kls
I believe I will see my brother again, but not in some biblical "heaven." Again, Kls, I'm glad you got a second chance at life. Live it to the fullest.
There are many things done in the name of Christianity, but mostly by people who call themselves Christians.
Calling yourself a Christian and being one is two different things.
It's true that 80% of the population consider themselves Christian, but the truth is that only 10% or less are actual Christians.
This? again???
Good grief. Okay, yes, YES there most certainly is such a thing, and to analogously illustrate how asinine your assertion is, I would like you to click the following link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExMilitaryWives/
Then I would like you to click on the chatroom link at the bottom of the page, and spark up a discussion stating things like, "there's no such thing as an ex-wife". Would you do that, 'droid? I double dare you. Yes, tell them things like, "you were never really married", and that, "you didn't try hard enough", and that, "your husband still loves you....but you just need to open your heart".
Let us know how that goes, m'kay?
Anony continued: There are many things done in the name of Christianity, but mostly by people who call themselves Christians. Calling yourself a Christian and being one is two different things.
No, I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. Either everybody who "calls themself" a "Christian" IS a Christian, or nobody is a "Christian". Most assuredly, YOU wouldn't allow some other person to determine if you were a "Christian" or not, because it's NOT for them to determine, is it? Damned straight..."hELL NO", so likewise, it's NOT for you determine if someone else is a "True Christian", or not.
Furthermore, that fact these self-titled/self-elected "Christians" fall on opposite sides of the fence concerning such issues as abortion, capital punishment, right to life, homosexuality, evolution, etc., etc., clearly shows lack of a unified objective "Truth".
Christo-droid concluded: It's true that 80% of the population consider themselves Christian, but the truth is that only 10% or less are actual Christians.
Please provide the link for these "statistics". Thanks.
I choose to go direct, not going to church, and not submitting to the distorted doctrine and dogma, but blowing it out of the water.
Here's some math for you. Revelations starts out with Christ dictating 7 letters to the Apostle John, having him deliver these letters to seven churches LESS THAN 100 YEARS after Christ's ascension. Only 2 out of those 7 churches received letters of enouragement, while the other 5 received letters of warnings, pleadings and scoldings. Again, that was less than 100 YEARS after the start of Christianity. No wonder when you multiply by 20, you get priests going down on boys and pastors of influential churches smoking meth and getting homo.
I have nothing against God or Christ, just the sheeple that attempt to get their spirituality by going to church and getting b.s. spoonfed to them from the pulpit.
It's okay, hormone rage is tough when you're in puberty; hope you get past it.
Also you should know that your argument is just like the devil's when Christ was tempted in the wilderness. Luke 4:12 "And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." -- The answer Christ gave stands.
Wow, that's an inventive interpretation! Very good!
Isn't it wonderful how many different ways "God's Word" can be rephrased and interpreted so that it means whatever we want it to mean. In any event, it rarely, if ever, means exactly what the words clearly communicate.
Awesome!
However, I'm still asking you to empty the bowels of your compassion on me and cough out a measly ten dollars. Can you pinch out that much? In the name of Jesus?
Thanks.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Therefore, in the beginning there was God the Word... So, God is a Word...
Hey, Ken, if you believe the printed word God "refers" to an "identity" beyond the context of printed "text", then describe the "identity" and give evidence for your claim... While you are at it; attempt to give some evidence on what a "SPIRIT" is...
I find it somewhat humorous, that you use two words that have no identity outside printed text, to validate eachother... thanks for that, I needed some humor...
Bugs Bunny exists as a real live rabbit, because Daffy Duck says so...
Do you believe you evolved from a rock over billions of years (scoff)?
Where you there?
How do you 'know'?
So you maybe promote an imaginary 'big bang'? How laughable. Where you there? Where is your 'evidence' of such a foolish claim?!
You probably belive all the matter in the entire universe was compacted into an infintisimal dot no bigger than the period on this page (after all thats the drivel you were indoctrinated with in your youth).
Where you there?
Did you see it?
Can you PROVE it?
You are fools with no evidence and fail at your own game of 'who knows best.'
Oh, yes, I could indeed play your game and scoff right back at you.
You take the easy, but deceitful, position and try to get others to play by the rules you impose.
I'm not sure what you're doing here. You are parroting some standard creationist claptrap that betrays an astonishing lack of curiosity. True, nobody saw the Big Bang, and nobody watched evolution happen. Nobody has seen glaciers move or atoms collide either. If "seeing" is your criterion for "knowledge", then you're be destined to know effectively nothing. Perhaps you also deny that sequoias grow from seeds and that the Civil War actually happened--unless you were there, of course.
By the way, I doubt very much that you could "play my game", as my "game" is based on evidence and reason. It also goes by the name "science". If you would like to give it a go, then I'll happily indulge you. Where would you like to start?
Good day.
The way I understand setting up a "straw man,” it is when someone creates a clownish caricature of some idea or other just so it can be knocked down. Please explain what part of the article above is a caricature of what your god-man supposedly commanded.
This article has nothing to do with evolution, BTW, but everything to do with why even Christians refuse to obey the silly commands in the Bible. Regardless, since you insist on talking about evolution, I will say that evolution is irrelevant when it comes to debating the existence of a magical mind floating out among the stars, waiting for the day when it will pour out its vengeance and wrath on unbelieving little human beings.
In a nutshell, here is what I get from your rant: You find it unreasonable to assume that nature is natural. You do, however, find it reasonable to assume that nature is magical. And since you think magic is reasonable, your god, therefore, exists.
Did I get it right? Or did I just set up a straw man?
Oh, and may I please have $10?
To the Xians: We still love you. :-)
Hmm.
Soli Deo Gloria
Wow!
So, how did I misrepresent HIS words?
HE said, "Give to everyone who asks," right?
Well?
Care to explain where I got it wrong? Or is accusing those who differ from you as being sinister all you have in your apologetic arsenal?
Oh, and I will be hoping that you one day regain your ability to reason coherently.
:-')
Do you consider yourself one of those "little ones"?
Strawman: "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
You are a "theist" no? By definition you suggest there is a "God", no?
Is that portraying or mischaracterizing "your" position? If so, how so?
If you suggest that you "know" a "God", then, again, as asked of you, take your "little" finger, and "point" to the exact "object", that your word "described" in "our" Reality...
If you "can't" find something to "point" to, then, all you have left to point at, is a "word" in a "book"...
If you find that you're impotent in the effort, "don't" blame others for your failures...
I have just as much right, to ask you to support your God "proposition" in the affirmative; as you have for telling me your "God" in fact "exists" as an axiomatic truth, "beyond" the words in a "book"...
If you don't like being asked to "make sense" out of your position, "after" you have affirmed a God proposition, then, don't bring it up - else, you appear a fool.
Ken: "Do you believe you evolved from a rock over billions of years (scoff)?"
Do you believe humanity was created from "dirt", in a Garden, a few thousand years ago (scoff)?
Regarding a cosmological argument; I agree with you, I wasn't there... however, we can actually talk about your question because it appears, we can "assign" an identity to the words you are using, which makes the question actually "valid"...
"you" = me... "I" have an "identity", the nature of the identity is physical... validated, based on physical evidence...
"believe" = a personal "idea"... My "ideas" hold "identity", the nature of the identity is cognitive... validated, based on personal ability to "affirm" the "unknown", or "uncertain", example; Santa Clause...
"evolved" = "change"... Change has "identity", the nature of the identity is form flux... validated, based on "physical" evidence...
"rock" = "solid matter"... Solid matter has "identity", the nature of the identity is physical... validated, based on physical "evidence"...
"billions" = "idea"... "Ideas" hold "identity", the nature of the identity is cognitive... validated, based on number association to Reality...
"years" = "idea"... "Ideas" hold "identity", the nature of the identity is cognitive... validated, based on associated celestial movement...
"(scoff)" = "emotion"... "emotions" hold "identity", the nature of the identity is "cognitive"... validated, based on personal experience...
Ken, do you see where every word you have used to make your strawman argument, actually has an "identity", that can be pointed to in reality, and validated...
Try that with the word "God"... I'd suggest it is an "idea", and yet, you'd likely suggest "not"... I'd suggest that your "idea" may have been transferred to another medium, like paper/book, yet, the identity of the word is now just a textual fingerprint of an "idea"...
I'd suggest that the Jews, believed that their "G-d" didn't have an "identity", because to give their G-d an identity, was to place oneself as an equal to a God... the symbol for their deity, was an "empty chair"...
Christianity, many years later "gave" the Jews' God an identity, using the word "Jesus", yet, that is just a word as well, a word without an "identity" beyond text... what is the nature of the word "Jesus", it's an "idea", and the "idea" has an identity, but an "idea" is not "evidence" of the past...
Ken: "Where you there? How do you 'know'?"
Perfect example of your strawman argument... you have placed me in your self-created argument as though I actually believe I was born of a "rock" a billion years ago... How presumptuous...
Ken: "So you maybe promote an imaginary 'big bang'? How laughable. Where you there? Where is your 'evidence' of such a foolish claim?!"
Again, you have invoked your strawman, I have not suggested I promote anything of the sort...
Ken: "You probably belive all the matter in the entire universe was compacted into an infintisimal dot no bigger than the period on this page (after all thats the drivel you were indoctrinated with in your youth)."
Again, a strawman, you don't know me or my educational background, yet you throw me into your lame argument...
Ken: "Where you there? Did you see it? Can you PROVE it?"
More Ken strawmen, statements...
Ken: "You are fools with no evidence and fail at your own game of 'who knows best.'"
You lose; I don't "have" to play your game of "create a cosmology theory", because "you" failed to give an "identity" to the word "God" that can be validated...
Hope you understand, that "I" don't "have" to answer the question; Where did the Universe come from? Because, you "think" I should... again, that's your mental mistake, not mine...
By the way, you can't ask valid questions, without every word in the question being assigned a unique identity...
Ken: "Oh, yes, I could indeed play your game and scoff right back at you."
You could scoff at the fact you need oxygen to live, that doesn't remove the fact you need oxygen...
Ken: "You take the easy, but deceitful, position and try to get others to play by the rules you impose."
You mean the position that propositions need not be entertained until all variables/words are given a proper identity, so that the "possibility" of a "valid" conclusion can be drawn as a result?
I seek "understanding", not the social exchange of meaningless rhetoric... However, if you enjoy such entertainment, ensure you find others who share your same objective... you'll only "irritate" those who seek understanding and wisdom.
Yes, I read of God - but I also met Him ( I can't see the wind nor where it blows but i feel its force)and He has done wonderful things before my eyes and in my life. I know Him and better yet am known of Him.
Jesus is the Son of God (no, I am not a Trinitarian and Yes, I do keep the 4th commandment on not working the 7th day Sabbath) Jesus also has an identity ("before Abraham was- I am")
Did you know that Jesus was seen resurrected by many people including a group of 500 brethren at once! Such a cloud of eyewitnesses to an event on channel two and you would belive what they said- but since its the bible you won't. Funny, no fiorst century writings EVER contradicted that Jesus existed or the gospel stories.
Is there historical and scientific proof of Jesus?
It is interesting that when people seek historic and scientific proof of Jesus, they immediately discount the Bible as a reliable source.
If we look at the Bible simply as a historic document, it should be among the most reliable on record compared with others.
Historians routinely cite Herodotus as a key source of information. He wrote from 488 B.C. to 428 B.C. and the earliest copy of his work comes from 900 A.D. (1,300 years later). There are only eight known copies of his work.
By contrast, the New Testament of the Bible (with all its information about Jesus) was written between 40 A.D. and 100 A.D. The earliest known copy is from 130 A.D. and there are 5,000 known copies in Greek, 10,000 in Latin and 9,300 in other languages.
Still, to put to rest the notion that there is no historic and scientific proof of Jesus outside the Bible, we may look to Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and to Roman historian Carius Cornelius Tacitus - both well known and accepted.
Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities" wrote:
"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).
Tacitus, in writing about accusations that Nero burned the city of Rome and blamed it on Christians, said the following:
". . .Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate. . . .At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. . . ." (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44).
I do not have too much time to spend here so I will be brief as I can while stating my case in each post.
Have a beer and go read some of the arguments posted here and on other sites - try an opposing site for fun.
1 Corinthians 1:18-31 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 2:12-16 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:18-19 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Any Christian 'worth his salt' knows that learning in 'her a little there a little' - that any 'proof' texts must be harmonized with the whole of scripture.
MATTHEW 5:42& Luke 6:30—Should believers literally give anything to anyone who asks?
PROBLEM: Here Jesus 'clearly' said, “Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away”. But, if we took this literally we would have nothing to provide for our own families. Also, Paul says that those who do not provide for their own families are worse than infidels ( 1 Tim. 5:8 ).
SOLUTION: A text out of its context is a pretext. We must understand the context in which Jesus said “give to him who asks you.” First of all, as we know from other things Jesus said and did, this does not mean to give to people what will harm them. A Jesus said, no good father would give a serpent to his child (Matt. 7:10).(I believe you asked someone else for that verse)
Furthermore, it does not mean give to those who can work, but refuse to. Paul said emphatically, “If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat” ( 2 Thes. 3:10 ).
Finally, the whole context of Jesus’ statements here are to reaffirm the spirit of the law which He came to magnify (Matt. 5:17–18 ), as opposed to what they “heard” (Matt.5:21, 27, 33, 38, 43)—what had been said by oral tradition and misinterpretation ( Matt. 15:3–6 ). Here Jesus is explicitly addressing the legalistic misinterpretation of the OT that says take revenge on your enemy with “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” (Matt. 5:38 ). By contrast Jesus says, don’t retaliate against your enemy. Love him, and give to help him (v. 44 ). But Jesus no more expected His listeners to take, without qualification, the command to “give to him who asks you” than He intended them to literally cut off their hands and pluck out their eyes if they offended them (v 29–30 )!
Tip for atheists: Leave the scripture interopretation and exposition to the Saints - its theirs anyway.
WM No, I won't give you ten bucks ... BECAUSEI know and obey my Savior Jesus and my Father in heaven.
I will give you TEN commandments from them: Exodus 20:1-17 God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. "You shall not take the name of Yahweh your God in vain, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. You shall labor six days, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to Yahweh your God. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates; for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which Yahweh your God gives you. "You shall not murder. "You shall not commit adultery. "You shall not steal. "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's."
Christians/Believers- make note of this explanation and consider the casting of pearls when spending time here.
All- thank you for the time and your indulgence of my posts.
Love in Christ, Ken
First of all, you follow a cult. You are a heretic, because you deny the Trinity. Since you are not a real Christian, but only a deceived cultist, your interpretation must be full of holes, right?
Now, it seems certain that your interpretation is off by a large margin. I'll reprint the complete context of your walking zombie's supposed command. Be sure to read EVERY word, not just the scattered words that agree with your cult's teachings.
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Clearly your flying, un-dead, human-god with a male sex organ commanded you to not resist evil, give more away at court than required, and when stolen from or compelled to do something, then to give away or do even more.
Let me ask you something. You say you must "compare scripture to scripture," right? That's interesting. Where in the Bible does it that say that? And why would anyone need to quote Paul to interpret the teachings supposedly quoted from the very mouth of the incarnate God? Besides, Paul doesn't say to NOT give to everyone who asks, does he. And my request for a measly ten dollars is very reasonable. Your coat likely cost more than $10.
Sorry, Ken. But you are at best a disobedient servant who will receive many stripes, or at worst a hellbound cultist.
In any event, you only THINK you are a "True Christian™."
And implying that I am a swine isn't very loving, you heretic you.
Please tell me the name of one of these observers. What, exactly, did they see? Your evidence for these "500 brethren" consists of one sentence in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. (1 Corinthians 15:6, to be precise.) We do not know how Paul came to possess this information, or what kind of "appearance" he had in mind. Was it purely spiritual, as in his case? More troubling yet, none of the gospel writers refers to this amazing fact, raising the possibility that it is a late interpolation.
Your comments about the historical accuracy of the Bible are off base. Neither the age of a document nor the number of copies is a basis for judging its historical accuracy. The *intent* of the document, along with its provenance and the reliability of its authors is the key. Using these criteria, the gospels in particular are exceedingly poor historical documents as they were 1) written in a hagiographic form (i.e. as a means to INSTILL BELIEF, not record history), 2) by written anonymously, and 3) redacted by unknown authors an unknown number of times, thus destroying any semblance of provenance.
The Josephus passage shows numerous signs of being a late interpolation. The Tacitus passage is also suspect. You should know these things if you're going to tout them as evidence for Jesus.
Ken then said "...I will match biblical science against your antibiblical science only if you will admit that your view is a religious one too."
First, science is not "antibiblical". Science seeks objective answers, no matter where they lead. If the answers happen to contradict somebody's religious beliefs, then so be it. If it supports them, then so be it. Facts lead where they lead.
Second, being an atheist, I hold no religious views. I hold no beliefs in invisible beings of any description. The only conscious entities I am aware of are biological. I endorse no "holy book". I subscribe to no doctrine that purports to be the "word of god". I take absolutely no doctrine or belief to be beyond question. So, no, I do not accept your label. Does that mean you are now unwilling to discuss science?
I have a suggestion. Why not concentrate on presenting *your* views rather than trying to tell me what I believe, or forcing me to wear a label. I will do the same. Do we have a deal?
Ken: "...we could post stuff back and forth but why? You won't budge and neither will I-"
Please speak only for yourself. You have absolutely no idea what evidence I will accept, and what conclusions I will reach. By the way, when you say that you will not budge, you are in effect saying that you will hold your beliefs despite any conceivable evidence that comes your way. Do you agree with that? If not, please clarify.
Ken: "...try an opposing site for fun."
The majority of my reading is from opposing views. I study all sides and seek the BEST arguments I can find, whether or not I initially agree with the conclusions. I think that's being prudent. Don't you? Can you name a few books you've read that are critical of Christianity?
O.k...well...Ken, your last name wouldn't be Ham, would it?
Jesus said you have to hate your family to serve him right? So, why worry about havuig enough to take care of them?
Ken, do you understand what the words above actually suggest? The character John, says that Jesus couldn't tell which way the wind blew, even though one could "hear" the effects/whistling... and uses the metaphor to further suggest, that The Spirit (figuratively speaking), can't be "found", but only understood by the "effects"...
You see Ken; this is a "prime" example, of not being able to "assign" an "identity" to something...
Beyond John portraying Jesus as inept in his ability to "know" which way the wind blows (because, even a little mortal like myself "knows" which way the wind blows), this passage cites the "inability" for someone to "assign" an "identity" to the word "Spirit"... that, the best that can be done is to "look" at effects, and accept the proposition...
The analogy is poor, because wind does have a source and can be traced, as well; we can control wind, harness energy as a result of knowing wind patterns, etc., etc... wind is gaseous molecular movement, the word "wind" is made of physical components that can be isolated and studied.
On the other hand, "spirit"... it is suggested can only be known by "effects"... now, granted there is much debate on what can be "known" by studying "effects" in Nature and promoting theories, etc., such as black holes etc., but all data collected that does not "conflict" with the theory, is what "makes" the theory solid...
I have no problem, looking at effects and attempting to create a theory... and it appears the bible is suggesting that you shouldn't either, by this metaphor, "you" pulled out...
So, Ken, do tell... which "effects" in a persons' behavior, suggest they have a "spirit" dwelling within them...
Moreover, think about why such behaviors/effects would be "unique" to True Christians who have the "spirit" with them; and "not" like the "effects" or "behaviors" of someone who doesn't have the "spirit", like... me for instance...
I suggest there is no effects/behaviors that are "unique" to a True Christian that can be used to create a unique "identity" to the term "True Christian"...
If you read your passage again, a loophole was created to suggest that no one can really tell when the "spirit" dwelleth and when it doesn't... it comes and goes without notice... so, "spirit" has no "identity", except "effects"... and you are not going to be able to proffer a "unique" behavioral "effect", unique to the term "True Christian"... at least, "not" by behavioral effect...
What makes a "True Christian", thus, is totally based on one's volitional affirmation of a God proposition; without "understanding" the "meaning" or "identity" of the word "God"...
Thus, a True Christian is one who affirms a "belief", hoping that the proposition they were given by "another person" is going to be true - some day.
The problem with that Ken, at least for me, is that if "I" can't "know" of it today, then it would be dishonest to "say" or "affirm", that I "do" know something today... I lack belief; or more technically... I do not volitionally affirm the God proposition as given by Christianity... you do.
I do not "affirm" propositions that have words that lack identity or contextual meaning... thus, I currently "lack" belief/blind acceptance of all such propositions. And, notice I used the word “all” propositions of such make-up, not just the one you are currently promoting... on the other hand; you have no problem “affirming” a proposition, with words that have no identity, but isolate your acceptance to just “one” proposition, while denying the validity of “all” other such propositions…
Your practiced responses that you read from other people (same thing you accuse Christians of) are deceitful and droll. Its true not many wise are called but only to make their follishness more evident.(For you eggheads: I am a member of the High IQ Society -genius level -so I am not stupid either)
You explain away historical references to Jesus because to not do so would mean you would have to acknowledge them like you do all other historical data.
Visit Biblical Archealogy website and read of many of the historic discoveries proving the bible. http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/
WM, you can't label me a heretic because I belong to God and He will judge me. You studied it - you know the Trinity was adopted well after the apostles time. You must realize that not everything you've heard about Christianity or the things they practice are true. The things you unbelieving professors taught you was not all true. If you said the Catholic Church was a cult and didn't follow the bible I would agree with you. Jesus said the road to life was narrow and FEW find it. (would this be bad or wrong of God? How many spermatazoa get the egg and how many die forever?)
Stronger now- thanks for the compliment but no, I am not Ken Ham. His website answeresingenesis is good though. Also try Kent Hovind www.drdino.com.
Look inside yourselves and ask why you are so hostile to Christ? The carnal mind is enmity against God. You more than like hold less hostility for budha or zoroaster or Anton leVey - if you are honest you may find why.
Folks,Look inside yourselves. Do you really think this brief life is all their is? Many of you claim to be ex-Christians - then there is little more to say. You have chosen your way. You have chosen death. You read and decided to listen to your own finite mind from your brief existence on this orb.
There is nothing you have done that God won't forgive - you do not need to distance yourself from Him. Go to Him ask for forgiveness and be reconciled to Him. He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked but wants all to come to eternal life.
Like I said, I do not have time to spend philosopy-fencing with you all (due to my ministry, family & work)but I will invite you to my website truthontheweb.org if you want the truth - sorry in advance though - the site will disappoint you - no philosphy is there - just bible exposition.
I know you will post and blast me when I leave but I will probably not be back due to time contraints. Thanks again for indulging me what little time you did. Leave the bible to the Christians - you can't understand it because you are carnal - not spiritual.
Thanks again. Have a reflective day. - Ken
Ken, you are extremely rude. Why is it that you cannot simply focus on making whatever point you wish to make, or better yet, answering some of the questions that have been put to you? Why must you attack?
Ken: "Your practiced responses that you read from other people (same thing you accuse Christians of) are deceitful and droll."
I challenge you to back that up. What responses, SPECIFICALLY, are you talking about? What evidence of deceit do you have? Please show some integrity by making your charges clear and by backing them up.
Ken: "(For you eggheads: I am a member of the High IQ Society -genius level -so I am not stupid either)"
If you don't mind, I'll assess what you have to say based on the substance of what you say--not on your boasting. I invite you to do the same. Fair enough?
Ken: "You explain away historical references to Jesus because to not do so would mean you would have to acknowledge them like you do all other historical data."
Instead of asserting that I have some secret motive, which you have no way of knowing, I challenge you to respond to my questions directly. Can you tell me something about those "500 brethren"? Anything at all? Have you read any books that are critical of Christianity? Can you cite any of the reasons that have been put forth for doubting the existence of a historical Jesus? Can you name some of the evidence that suggests the Testimonium Flavium is at least partly a late interpolation? These can be addressed calmly and rationally, can they not?
Ken: "Visit Biblical Archealogy website and read of many of the historic discoveries proving the bible. http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/"
<B... conflate mundane historical facts with corroboraing accounts. That the Bible makes reference to many people and places that actually existed is not in dispute. It was written within a historical context, so it is infused with information from the time. The question is whether its fantastic claims are accurate. For them there is ZERO corroboration. Furthermore, the majority of the motifs are strikingly similar to those of older (mythical!) beliefs. Can you offer any historical corroboration for ANY element of the Jesus story?
Ken: "Look inside yourselves and ask why you are so hostile to Christ?"
I have no hostility toward Jesus whatsoever. I think he's a laudable figure for the most part. Some of the teachings attributed to him are exemplary. I suggest you stop projecting your own unsavory assumptions onto people. It really makes it look as though you cannot support your own position.
Ken: "I know you will post and blast me when I leave but I will probably not be back due to time contraints."
Somehow I doubt that your departure is due solely to time constraints, but whatever the reason... It's been mildly interesting. If you ever care to have a civil discussion about the historicity of Jesus, or the accuracy of the Bible, I'll happily oblige. I'm not too keen on swapping insults, however.
Ken: "Leave the bible to the Christians - you can't understand it because you are carnal - not spiritual."
Again, you level insults rather than address anything substantive. Why not simply defend (or even define!) your own position? It's easy to level insults--not so easy to do the research, think things through, and state your case cogently. (I hope you already knew that.)
If your still reading Ken, it doesn't do you any good to say you have a high IQ. I could say the same thing and mine would always be bigger. Even if you actually did have a huge IQ it wouldn't matter 'cause a big IQ is like a big penis, if you don't know how to use it properly it's still an embarassment.
Interestingly, you and your big intelligence quotient seem to be stymied by the "mental gymnastics", as evidenced by your failure to address/answer anything put to you.
Now, about these "500 brethren"("witnesses")---we know more about the eyewitnesses in the Book of Mormon than we do the "500" alleged "Yahweh" witnesses. Mind you, the Mormon witnesses were people who actually signed their names to attest to the fact that an angel had shown them the golden plates from which Joseph Smith, Jr.(the founder of Mormonism) translated the Book of Mormon, and, that they had heard God's voice testifying that the book had been translated by the power of God.
The point is, with all this detailed information, why do you casually dismiss it, and instead, believe much more vague, much less detailed accountings? Is it because there were allegedly so many?...i.e.."500"? Okay then, why not believe the thousands of eyewitness accounts of people who've seen Bigfoot? Could it possibly be because belief in big-footed domestic apes won't get you a post-mortem life of eternal bliss in the clouds? Hmmmm?
Ken: Your practiced responses that you read from other people (same thing you accuse Christians of) are deceitful and droll.
There's nothing to "practice" for, handsome. If someone says, "the Great Pumpkin exists!....praise the Great Squash Patch in the sky!!!"..I don't need to "practice" my response, nor do I need to "plaigarize" my response from another skeptic. My answer is simple: Where is the evidence????
BTW..'got any for your biblegod?
Ken: Its true not many wise are called but only to make their follishness more evident.(For you eggheads: I am a member of the High IQ Society -genius level -so I am not stupid either)
Well that certainly sheds a little bit of a different light on things, doesn't it? Pardon our follishness...I feel like such an egghead.
Ken: You explain away historical references to Jesus because to not do so would mean you would have to acknowledge them like you do all other historical data.
No, as already pointed out to you---accepting historical data is one thing; accepting mystical magical mish-mash is quite another.
Ken: Visit Biblical Archealogy website and read of many of the historic discoveries proving the bible. http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/
<BR... this.
Ken to Webmaster: You must realize that not everything you've heard about Christianity or the things they practice are true.
I'm sure he "realizes" it, and of course, this could include the things that Ken might "practice", and what we've "heard about Christianity" from Ken. Ahhh, the irony.
Ken: If you said the Catholic Church was a cult and didn't follow the bible I would agree with you.
Well of course...those "other people" aren't "True Christians".
Since none of the THOUSANDS of Christian denominations can offer convincing evidence that they have the One True interpretation, let's flip a coin, shall we?
Jesus said the road to life was narrow and FEW find it.
Many people said MANY things. Nonetheless, "life" isn't a destination---it's a journey.
Ken: Look inside yourselves and ask why you are so hostile to Christ?
It appears your question got cut off for some reason. You're missing the "ianity" on the last word.
I'm hostile towards it because it's an abhorant out-dated belief-system that is generally good for nothing but causing division among humankind, and empowering a good portion of the world's biggest bigots. Most Christians who are kind, compassionate, and peaceful, etc.. would be kind, compassionate, and peaceful without their holy hand book. We do NOT get morality from biblegod.
Ken: Folks, Look inside yourselves. Do you really think this brief life is all their is?
Yes, which in turn, makes every minute of it even more special. But you cannot see that, because your focus is getting into the "next life". 'Got greed?
Ken: Many of you claim to be ex-Christians - then there is little more to say. You have chosen your way. You have chosen death.
What an absurd statement. Okay, firstly, you are the one who is apparently focused on "DEATH"(on avoiding it)Secondly, objective reality won't be altered simple because we "choose" to alter it. It's not quite that simple, simpleton.
Ken: You read and decided to listen to your own finite mind from your brief existence on this orb
And you "decided" to listen to your "finite mind" when you dismissed the Great Allah. Do you feel like you're missing out on something? No, you say? Well, I don't either.
Ken There is nothing you have done that God won't forgive - you do not need to distance yourself from Him. Go to Him ask for forgiveness and be reconciled to Him.
Get the corncobs out of your ears, and listen good---if a "God" exists, then quite to the contrary---he/she/it is doing the "distancing". Your malfunction is apparently because you assume that because we didn't get an answer from "God", that it must be because we didn't ask. What an arrogant ass-umption. Nonetheless, "God" is presumably omnipresent; I am only in one place at once. Right? Right. "God" is presumably timeless; I am temporal. Right? Right. Thus, "God" has had, and still has, endless time to make it's existence known, and should be able to do so effortlessly...just like he allegedly did to the "500". My time is limited, on the other hand. After all, "God" is in our very midst right this second, right? Right. So please don't hand me that "God" wants me to have "faith" shit, m'kay? Thanks.
He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked but wants all to come to eternal life.
You appear to be saying that God will be forced to do something that God doesn't really want to do.(i.e.."kill the wicked") Hmmm, that doesn't sound like "omnipotence" to me--that sounds like a being who is helpless against evil. Okay, why would I worship a wuss, even if bible god existed? I should worship something just to avoid eternal torture? Is that a great reason to believe something?..because you're afraid not to?
Ken closes with: Leave the bible to the Christians - you can't understand it because you are carnal - not spiritual.
Listen to this "logic":
One cannot understand the bible because one needs to be "spiritual" in order to do so. Yet, one can evidentally not be "spiritual" until they read the bible.
Now, who's the pillar of intelligence who came up with this initiation? LMAO!
Enjoy your delusion, Ken(I know you'll be back for a peek).
Hey Ken, I'm a member of the High IQ Society Too!! That is really what prompted me to even post here.
Sorry if I'm invading your space to be rude or whatever. Get out of your basements and use those minds to do something for the world if you sre so convinced it is up to us as humans.
<BR/... web page: "Church Affiliation: Truth On The Web Ministries is an organ..."
Which one?
Ken's web page: "Intent and Purpose: ...Also to issue a witness and a warning to the churches about times to come."
Yeah, Ken's "organ" is the "True Church", thus, only "True Christians" go, to his True Church, all other "Christians" are lost, and are obviously not able to read the bible as well as Ken is... albeit, his biblical knowledge is sorely lacking, as seen on this thread...
Ken: "Your practiced responses that you read from other people (same thing you accuse Christians of) are deceitful and droll."
Uh, well reasoned thought, brings many to the same conclusions... just because you don't seem to engage in "reasoning" at a level that would challenge your "belief", doesn't reduce them to the religious "drone", such as an evangelist... two plus two equals four, I suppose you have a problem with everyone who comes up with the "exact" same "logical" answer, continuously...
You find that "boring" it appears, and so, seek to creatively offer "different" answers... great, enjoy your recreation of reality in you mind... it doesn't change the Truth of the Objective Reality in which you life...
Ken: "Its true not many wise are called..."
Therefore, some are called...
Ken: "...but only to make their follishness more evident."
Therefore, some who are called only make their foolishness more evident.
Ken: "(For you eggheads: I am a member of the High IQ Society -genius level -so I am not stupid either)"
Therefore, you are one of the "some" that suggests they have been called, and with such a high-IQ, in order to make your foolishness more evident...
But, aside from your prideful boasting at having "formed" the True "Church", while holding a self-acclaimed "high-IQ fool" title, you have not given an "identity" to the word God, other, than it being a three letter word...
I suppose it should go unsaid, that your "Church of God", is really a "church of _____" since a word without an identity, is a word that can mean "anything"...
A word that can mean "anything" is; a word that means "nothing", objectively speaking, because it is "arbitrary"...
So, it would be more correct if your church were named; "Church of Arbitrariness"... where you can tell everyone; "come in, worship what you want, define the bible based on your mood-swings and desires, it can be anything you want it to be,.."
Ken's web page: "Our salvation is by grace of God alone through the atoning sacrifice of our Lord, Christ Jesus."
Great, therefore, everyone can arbitrarily suggest that they are saved, since a blood-debt/murder was made on my behalf... All atheists are free and clear of any guilt, or debt... thus, really no need to go any further in researching the bible, etc.
Ken's web page: "Take care to prove all things for yourself."
Ken: "The carnal mind is enmity against God."
The "carnal mind" is "required" to seek, "proof" for statements... yet; you suggest the "carnal mind" is an enmity against "God"...
For those, who don't care to read your deceitful, half-truth, lies... let me break this down...
You want to "appear" as if you are being "genuine" in your effort to assist others in their "effort" to "prove" the Truth of God... but, you attack the very tool that is required to "prove" anything - the mind... by suggesting the mind is "enmity" towards God...
Enmity: "a feeling or condition of hostility; hatred; ill will; animosity; antagonism."
Ken: "You all speak in ignorance of that which you do not know. Your mental gymnastics only serve to puff up your own egos. But that is why you are here."
No, Ken, the "reason" I am "here" as you put it, isn't because of my "ignorance"... it's because I refuse to accept "your" deceit/ignorance... I refuse, to "shut down" my "carnal mind", because a "carnal mind" is required to "understand" proof/evidence...
You will "lure" people to your site, baiting them with the promise of assisting them in the search for "proof", and when you "fail" them, because you can't give an "identity" to a "word" that is at the "root" of your belief system, they will call you on your lie/deceit/inability to assist... upon which time, you will call them "deceived", puffed-up, and a few other choice words to cover your buttocks...
You say you have a high IQ, but your actions say different... you came to this web site, titled, "ex-Christian", and attempted to use a "con" that has likely been a key factor in many leaving the fold... that speaks volumes about your ability to think critically, or with your "carnal mind"...
To end, your inability to assign an "identity" to the word God, is "proof" that you have no "ability" to help others in such a quest...
That's your opinion. Let me ask you, though---besides that, do you have anything of substance to offer?..perhaps something that doesn't contribute to this "waste"? Let's take a look...
idem: wow, what a bunch of bobble heads, on both sides.
Hmmm. Ad hominem attack. Nope, nothing of substance there.
idem: I cannot PROVE that the sun will come up tomorrow, but I have faith it will, simply stated, I believe it will, that is all faith is, a belief.
Wow...'seems like a strikingly familiar Christian analogy, coming from someone who insults "both sides". In any event, no, you cannot "PROVE" the sun will come up tomorrow. Notwithstanding, here's two things you might want to consider:
1) Whether the sun will come up tomorrow, or not, is not in dispute. There are no websites disputing that issue.
2) If it was in dispute, and the sun came up tomorrow, well, you'd then have all the evidence you'd need to be able say, "see, the sun came up!". Therefore, if you have the evidence, you do NOT need the "faith", even though you retain the belief that the sun will come up. Your attempt at equating "belief" with "faith", and your implicit attempt at equating Atheism with "faith", utterly fails---at least, with that analogy. 'Got anything better?...'anything of substance?
idem: One side here has faith in an eternal God as creator and he who begat a Messiah the other simply has faith in thier own selves
Again, you assert a false dichotomy. The opposite of "belief in a creator" is NO BELIEF in a "creator". Believing in "yourself" is something anyone can do, Theist, or non-Theist.
idem: Your[interpretation of] scriptures are way out of context, simply discovered using reading comprehension, and you are doing the same thing most man-made religions do, use scripture to suit themselves and their own needs, emotional or otherwise.
Why are you unecessarily making the distinction, "man-made religion"??? All religions are man-made. The Christian belief is rooted in "Divine revelation", per the Holy Bible. Said book is the number one source for biblegod's alleged "Word". Christians follow Christian doctrine. Period. Christianity is a religion. True, Christians claim to have a relationship with biblegod... however, if it wasn't for the bible, they wouldn't know who the hell they weren't talking to, or weren't seeing, during their courtship with "Jesus". 'Follow?
Now, as far non-Christians quoting scripture, in this case, "give to those who ask"...it is to prove a point---that being, that the bible is one big subjective grabbag. Christians pick and choose which parts to adhere to, and which parts to toss out. Interestingly, the parts they toss out and/or don't follow, are almost always the parts that they claim are taken "out of context". Ironic?
idem: It is really silly to argue something so grotesquely misguided.
It's silly to follow something so grotesquely misguided. Honestly, do you "hate" your parents? Do you throw rocks at people who earn a living on Sunday? Or wait...am I taking these things "out of context"?
idem: Hey Ken, I'm a member of the High IQ Society Too!!
Wait, didn't you just call him a "bobblehead" ten minutes ago?..i.e.."both sides"? (hi Ken!)lol
idem: Get out of your basements and use those minds to do something for the world if you [are] so convinced it is up to us as humans.
Well, I don't see any "gods" helping the third-world countries, helping the poor in this country, or much of anything else, except being the subject of war.
No worries, you obviously have something important to say...
itdoesntevenmatter: "wow, what a bunch of bobble heads, on both sides. what a waste of web space this whole site is!!!"
Quite an admission, or is that a self-admonition... since you are posting on this site as well...
itdoesntevenmatter: "Hey Ken, I'm a member of the High IQ Society Too!! That is really what prompted me to even post here."
Actually, no, what really prompted you to post on this site, is seen by what you "posted"...
One single line about IQ, and the rest was about how this site is wasted space (to include you), the ones posting are bobble heads (to include you), and to seek other endeavors (except for you), obviously, in the hope that Christianity will not get exposed for the fraud it is...
So, 91+% of what "prompted" you, was "not" regarding High IQ... unless, you were having an "out-of-body" experience... more likely, you were deliberately trying to bump the last few posts up the thread, so that Ken wasn't sitting with his virtual buttocks in his virtual hands. There is another personality that makes the same lame attempt to bump posts, perhaps you know them.
itdoesntevenmatter: "I cannot PROVE that the sun will come up tomorrow, but I have faith it will, simply stated, I believe it will, that is all faith is, a belief."
I have lost "trust" in the IQ system, if you have an IQ over 90...
I don't have "faith" the sun will rise tomorrow, I have "confidence" the sun will rise tomorrow... "If", I choose to be "lazy" and not "gather evidence"...
Now, if I were not "lazy" and wanted "evidence", that the sun will "rise" tomorrow... I could walk outside on my back porch, and look at the night sky, and see the sunlight refract off the moon's surface, illuminating moon dust and producing a white halo effect around the natural satellite...
So, instead of being ignorant about what "proof" is, or isn't, take your hypothetical High IQ, and go read a book...
If you want to be "intelligent", then say... no one can "prove" the past or the future... to include the "bible"... but that does not rule out the present...
In the present, the Christianized word "God" has "zero" identity; that means, in the present tense, there is 100% incontrovertible proof that a person can't "know", "find", "rationally seek", "understand", anything related to that word...
In the present, I know what the "sun" is, it has a specific and unique nature; star... therefore, I can seek it out, I can find it, I can "know" when I've found it... I can see the effects it makes based on physical evidence... this, can be "known"...
itdoesntevenmatter: "One side here has faith in an eternal God as creator and he who begat a Messiah the other simply has faith in thier own selves."
Wrong. Your IQ must be getting in the way...
Faith: "1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact."
Faith in a cosmological creator is based on belief, which aligns with the "2" definition; belief, "not" based on "proof"...
As far as "my" having "faith" in myself, "I" have "evidence", it's called "me", as well, I don't have "confidence" or "trust" in my existence... I am "Absolutely Certain" I exist, as an axiomatic truth...
So, don't "confuse" yourself, and others based on your ignorance of the term...
itdoesntevenmatter: "We are all making choices and we are each educated enough here to know what our choices mean."
Uh, I "lack" confidence in "your" education... if what you have shown so far is anything reflective of your intellectual "aptitude"...
itdoesntevenmatter: "Even if I was a "True Christian" I would't give you $10."
You can't even define the term "True Christian", but yes, you can decide to do whatever you want, even be a total Christian hypocrite if it makes you happy... Just, don't mind us if we take the time to "point out" your hypocrisy...
itdoesntevenmatter: "Your scriptures are way out of context,..."
As opposed to "what other" scriptures... which of the hundred plus, versions of the Christian bible are you reading from?
itdoesntevenmatter: "...simply discovered using reading comprehension,..."
Being literate and having reading comprehension skills does in fact, help up to "discover" and "know" what words, sentences, passages, entire books, and even canons - mean... There is "no other" way to "discover" the meaning of words, it "requires" the active carnal "mind"...
itdoesntevenmatter: "...and you are doing the same thing most man-made religions do, use scripture to suit themselves and their own needs, emotional or otherwise."
If you are suggesting that the bible is an "interpretive" piece of literature... okay. Of course, that means, the bible is really meaningless... when something can mean anything; it means nothing... its arbitrary...
For those who believe that the bible gives "specific" guidance; they can proffer an explanation for what it means to "give" when one "asks"...
itdoesntevenmatter: "It is really silly to argue something so grotesquely misguided."
I know, the bible is totally misguided... for instance, what does someone have to do to be "saved"...
Saved by "words" alone:
Matthew 12:37 - "For by thy words thou shalt be justified."
Do the right things:
John 5:29 - "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life."
Psalm 62:12 - "For you render to each one according to his works."
Jeremiah 17:10 - "I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."
Believe the right things:
Romans 3:28 - "A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Romans 5:1 - "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Galatians 2:16 - "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
Do and believe the right things:
James 2:17 - "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
Believe in Jesus:
John 3:16 - "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Be born again:
John 3:3 - "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Hear the words of Jesus and believe in whoever sent him:
John 5:24 - "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life."
Be born of water and the spirit:
John 3:5 - "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Be washed by the Holy Ghost:
Titus 3:5 - "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
Be converted and become like a little child:
Matthew 18:3 - "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Believe and be baptized:
Mark 16:16 - "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."
Call upon the name of the Lord:
Acts 2:21 - "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead:
Romans 10:9 - "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Follow the commandments (at least some of them):
Matthew 19:17-19 - "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
Revelation 22:14 - "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life."
Keep the commandments and the faith of Jesus:
Revelation 14:12 - "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
Endure to the end:
Matthew 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13 - "He that endureth to the end shall be saved."
Wait until you die and then get baptized:
1 Corinthians 15:29 - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
Don't judge other people:
Matthew 7:1, Lk.6:37 - "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged."
Have lots of babies:
1 Timothy 2:14-15 - "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing."
Don't defile yourself with women. (Be a virgin male.):
Revelation 14:3-4 - "...the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins."
Be given by the Father and come to the Son:
John 6:37 - "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
Be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees:
Matthew 5:20 - "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Eat Jesus' body and blood:
John 6:53-54 - "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Just ask:
Matthew 7:7-8 - "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
All you need is love:
1 John 4:7 - "Love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God."
Luke 10:26 - "He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
Be chosen (predestinated) by God:
Matthew 22:14 - "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Be poor, not rich:
Matthew 19:23-24 - "Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luke 6:24 - "But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation."
James 5:1 - "Ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you."
Keep the commandments (at least some of them), give all your money to the poor, and follow Jesus:
Luke 18:18-22 - "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? ... Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
...thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."
itdoesntevenmatter: "It is really silly to argue something so grotesquely misguided."
Yeah, you have no idea...
By the way, itdoesntevenmatter, there's little point in using the word "faith" as a synonym for "belief". It makes a perfectly useful word redundant, it's counter to common usage, and it makes phrases such as "belief on faith" indecipherable. Normally "faith" implies belief that is not overtly supported by fact or reason, which makes your sunrise analogy inappropriate.
Bobble heads, eh? I can think of two on this thread.
I hope I do not need to provide you with a Bible verse to prove that Jesus did command such a thing, for if you have been a Christian before, you would know where it is.
So, since most of the true Christians are out there doing God's work, you're left with the rest of us fake Christians to surf the net, stumble upon websites such as yours, and to entertain you all.
So, don't expect too much from us fake Christians. We can barely keep the 613 commandments, so I believe you would not expect us to be able to send you 10 bucks.
And yeah, sometimes I do think that if Paul and the Church wanted to preach about God's grace and forgiveness of sin through Christ, they could've at least removed Jesus' sayings in the gospel that demanded His disciples to obey the commandments.
It makes fake Christians like me look bad.
Ugh.
I know what you say is true. My daughter and I became the victim's of a crime and I went to God in prayer for help to remove ourselves from an unsafe area. (Still trying) Well in prayer God urged me to ask, so I kept asking, until I realized He was guiding me to ask of His people. Well I went to every denomination and over 1000 churches nationwide for help. They all said the same thing, "We do not give to individuals." Non profits said no, we can only give to other non profits. So these churches and non profits steal money from the people but will give nothing back.
Why? fear. They do not have Faith that God is the source of their supply, but man is. Jesus was telling us over and over again about not being attached to our money. Money is a tool used to aquire a physical need. In fact on my asking journey I find that the Religous are the most fearful of all.
The Constitution does not say a church can only operate if it is incorporated, in fact to incorporate means to sign a contract with the Government and give up certain rights for the privelege of operating as a church and recieving money.
I am a Minister and have a Constitutional Church online that is dedicated to Real Truth, and I care not if I pay a tax or recieve no funds, that is not our reason for being.
But I do agree with you, there are few if any true Christic followers on Earth today. As to the person who gave to you if it went to a charity, that just shows that they feel you personally are unworthy of touching the money as if the money is sacred. They are showing they are still attached to the physical money and not in their faith to God. What does it matter if you recieve it, I thought only God did the Judging? I I would gladly send you ten dollars, and when I have some I shall. For it is only money and God is our supply and you can never out give God. I for one have seen first hand that my faith is in God and not in humans, and I will recieve and it will fall out of the sky because humans clutch with fear their pieces of paper.
Sure they throw it at disaster victims ,well to the non entity non profits that dole it out in trickle down economic fashion, never to real human people. So why not give to someone in your neighbor hood? Are you more worthy of God then others? And is your money your real God?
First: Please learn to use paragraph breaks. No one is going to bother reading a huge block of non-stop text.
Second: May I please have $10.00?
Thanks.
Fuck off chris. This isn't a site for you. We tend to think in a different way.
Yes, "You're a worthless sinner!" and "You'd better hope Hell doesn't exist!" and "You are of the Devil" and "Fool!" are *so* very fair and just and understanding. Stick around a while, and you'll see that such comments can be found in the vast majority of the Christian visitors' posts.
"isn't it best to choose the understanding, kind and loving path"
Under normal circumstances, yes. However, these are not normal circumstances. This is a support site for people who have experienced a great deal of pain and unhappiness as a direct result of their involvement with Christianity. If you come on here and attempt to tell us we got it wrong, we didn't try hard enough, or some such rot, you *will* have someone swear at you. Possible Me.
"Feelings cannot be explained, love is something you feel in your heart and soul..."
Feelings are adequately explained by brain chemistry and hormone surges. And the soul has not been proven to exist.
"True Christians give love and understanding without wanting anything back, we just want peace and unity and someday a place without money or control or greed."
Please make up your mind, Chris. Want or not-want?
End of critique. That'll be $10, please, payable to our Webmaster.
Chris,
First: Please learn to use paragraph breaks. No one is going to bother reading a huge block of non-stop text.
Chris:(You did).
stronger now said...
Boohoo! The profanity, the unfairness boohoo! Why oh why can't everyone behave as I think they should, Oh boo hoo!
Fuck off chris. This isn't a site for you. We tend to think in a different way.
Chris:(My point about the unneccesary offensive language. It is not a case of behaving as i think you should, it is a case of how sad it is that you think you should behave like that yourself, but thats life, and like i said- it's your choice)
Astreja said...
Chris Marlow: ""...the majority (if not all) of the fair and just and understanding comments have come from the Christians."
Yes, "You're a worthless sinner!" and "You'd better hope Hell doesn't exist!" and "You are of the Devil" and "Fool!" are *so* very fair and just and understanding. Stick around a while, and you'll see that such comments can be found in the vast majority of the Christian visitors' posts.
"isn't it best to choose the understanding, kind and loving path"
Under normal circumstances, yes. However, these are not normal circumstances. This is a support site for people who have experienced a great deal of pain and unhappiness as a direct result of their involvement with Christianity. If you come on here and attempt to tell us we got it wrong, we didn't try hard enough, or some such rot, you *will* have someone swear at you. Possible Me.
"Feelings cannot be explained, love is something you feel in your heart and soul..."
Feelings are adequately explained by brain chemistry and hormone surges. And the soul has not been proven to exist.
"True Christians give love and understanding without wanting anything back, we just want peace and unity and someday a place without money or control or greed."
Please make up your mind, Chris. Want or not-want?
End of critique. That'll be $10, please, payable to our Webmaster.
Chris:(We are all sinners, but none of us are worthless, and it's not a case of hoping hell doesn't exist, it's a case of hoping heaven does exist, you have that hope inside you. It is true we all have a little of the devil in us- we have the capacity to do bad, but we are born of Gods love and believing in that love we all have inside of us will over come everything, and that includes all your derogatory comments. I hear what your saying in that some people calling themselves christians come onto your site preaching you'll go to hell etc, and unfortunately they give us all a bad name.
I'm sorry that you and others on here have experienced a great deal of pain and unhappiness but it won't be from a direct involvement with Jesus or God, i can only imagine it's from some form of Christianity or chuch proffessing to be that. I'm not here to tell you that you've got it wrong, i've been in that place of pain and i knew it wan't my fault so whose the easiest person to blame - god. I'm only giving the other side of the arguement without which your site wouldn't exist, the difference being i would never feel the need to curse at you despite being told to f**k off by one of your posters.
It is true that some things can be explained by brain chemistry and hormone surges but it does not adequately explain everything, it doesn't expalin this feeling of warmth and love i have inside me. As for the soul it is something which needs to be nurtured, it is a spiritual thing which unfortunately is buried beneath a physical world, if we feel souless we are empty, lonely, hurt, angry, bitter - all feelings i have picked up from you on this site, did you all just have a sudden hormone surge? Like i said feelings cannot be adeqautely explained by brain or hormone. A lot of people fill up this emptyness with other things- money, beer, drugs, women all of which i have done in the past, but it is only when filled with love, faith, and belief that you will fell whole and happy.
As for want and not want. Perhaps i worded it wrong, i meant in the act of giving we don't expect anything back, we want to share love with everyone beacuse when you have something good you want to share it. In an ideal world we would have unity and peace and love but in this world controlled by physiavl chains it is hard to find.
Lastly, $10? It is not the act of giving money that is important, money itself is debt, debt to the bankers, so why would i give you something that will chain you to a banker? It is the act of giving itself that is important here. Money is something that binds us and holds us down, but giving is free, there are many ways to give to someone in need, the best and most important of which is giving love, which i send to you.
Your zombie man-god commands you to give to all who ask. That's why you should give. Didn't you even bother to read the article?
Now, may I pretty-please have $10.00?
Why is it "sad" that someone uses "colorfull metaphors" in their speech?
"...i would never feel the need to curse at you..."
Curse? That wasn't a curse? A curse is something like...
"May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits".
Now THAT'S a curse.
Jebus did ask for you to give, so give. Then fuck off.
There is no hell but what we create by our choices on earth. Heaven is not a place but a state of being which we are to bring to earth by the choices we make in consciousness.
I know I have been there. Money is not anything but a tool we use as a medium of exchange for goods. I do however find it amazing that we can give someone a piece of paper and get things that are bigger.
Worth is what we believe something is. We are all worthy and if we are all sinners then so is Jesus.
Jesus said we can do everything he did and more. then why do we not yet walk on water, change water into wine, or heal the sick or raise the dead? If we did we would be called devils.
But Jesus made us equal to him, he showed us what we really are, beings of spirit not earth.
We need our physical bodies to transcend but they too will transcend when we transform them into light as he did.
Yes, Jesus told us to give, not to demand and be selfish. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So if we treat others poorly it is how we wish to be treated. Equally it does not mean that if we are treated bad we should do likewise.
Our character is in our control. How we act dictates our character, how someone reacts dictates theirs.
Giving was told of us so we would realize that the only attachment we needed was with Spirit. Spirit is our only supply, "work not for the meat that perisheth."
Giving isn't just about money, and love can never be given it is within us to be love. But money is the thing most people fall on when it comes to releasing something. There seems to be a universal fear of sharing actual paper money.
Why? We are in an emergency situation, in my lifetime I have given so much money and even time including my time as a firefighter, where I gave 110%. Yet now is this hour of need I have reached out for help and the very ones i would expect to help me have slammed the door in my face.
I am not angry, just sad, for them. They said no to an opportunity to give to God. As the kingdom of God is within and the Spirit of God dwells within us, then to everyone you give, you give to God. "Whatsoever you do to the least of these, so you do unto me." There is so much in what he taught that so many don't get as his true meaning have been corrupted by institutionalized religion.
Yes, it is better to give in a state of love because giving in fear is still not faith. Maybe instead of harping on pain or misfortune we use the old adage, "necessity is the mother of invention"
If all of us in need joined together to help one another I believe we would accomplish more. I do no longer give to any church or any charity, as they freely take our money, but fear to give any back when we have a need.
We can always choose our direction, and thus except the path we have chosen and not blame another for our mishaps.
www.freewebs.com/spiritwomyn
'Sin' is a religious concept, not an actual entity.
"it's a case of hoping heaven does exist, you have that hope inside you."
No, I don't. I have no interest in 'heaven'. None at all. I don't want to live forever.
"It is true that some things can be explained by brain chemistry and hormone surges but it does not adequately explain everything, it doesn't explain this feeling of warmth and love i have inside me."
I've had those feelings too, Chris. If science can explain it, I'm okay with that.
"As for the soul... it is a spiritual thing which unfortunately is buried beneath a physical world."
Unsupported assertion.
"As for want and not want. Perhaps i worded it wrong, i meant in the act of giving we don't expect anything back, we want to share love with everyone beacuse when you have something good you want to share it."
Okay, fair enough. But I feel these things, too, and don't believe in your god.
Love is good, though. No quarrel there.
I'm just asking for ten bucks. It's fascinating what hoops Christians go through to justify disobeying the plain, obvious commands of their leader.
Nope, true Christianity is to hard on the wallet, I guess. As long as these man-god-commands can be transformed into freely acquired fluffy feelings, then everything is fine. But as soon as someone test the waters and asks for a nominal, tangible, real item...
Once again, I'm asking every Christian who reads this for $10. Please use the PayPal button in the upper part of the right-hand column.
Thanks.
How many Christians have actually given $10 to you?
I hope all is going well.
You said "God blesses the evil and the good and so should the good Christian".
God does bless good but he does not bless evil. He allows evil to happened because he gave us the free will to do what we want. He did not create us in a cage and train us to do good and not evil. We have the freedom to do what we want and wish. However, he DOES NOT BLESS evil. I have read the verses that you quoted and none of them imply that God bless evil. He said that we give whoever asks us and the person that takes from us is responsible with what he does with the money or the cloth or whatever. We are not responsible for other people's actions, neither is God responsible for the evil actions of the people--because it is the people's free will. Please explain to me where you got that God blesses evil.
With regards to the $10 dollars, can you please provide me with an alternative method to get the money to you or the website other than paypal? like and account number or an address that I can send a check to?
I believe either way you are a winner and that is very smart of you. If people do not pay you money, you appear as a winner because you have proven your point. If you people do you pay you, you have gotten Christians to support a cause that might not agree with their views.
One last comment and I apologize for the long message. I know many people who are true Christians and you might not believe me but the most famous to the West might be Mother Teresa. She gave her life to serving people and giving to people who have asked for her help. She did not turn people away. She died serving others and denying her own self in order to help those in need. Please explain to me why Mother Teresa might not be a true Christian in your eye.
Waiting for your answer
Thank you
Since posting this article in 2002, less than ten individuals identifying themselves as Christians have donated $10 each. (I believe the exact number of Christian donations is six, but I can't be sure without more research, and I don't think it's worth the time.) One of the Christian contributors was a relative of mine very soon after I came out as having left Christianity.
Justice, your Jesus is quoted as saying, "But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." -- Luke 6:35.
And, HE supposedly said, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" -- Matt 5:44
Those are the quotes I made, but I was quoting things ascribed to your man-god. In the future, when you use quotation marks, you might want to quote the person verbatim rather than paraphrasing. There is nowhere in this article that I stated what you have quoted me as saying.
Oh, and PayPal or the Amazon donation box is the only way honor my request for ten dollars.
I leave it to others to judge her "True Christianity™."
'Don't mind if I do......
Okay, the above-quoted raises an interesting question:
Ultimately, which is more important, then? Is it, a) what "we want and wish"?, or b) what the alleged creator of the Universe wants and wishes?
If we take the above-quoted at face value, it would seem that "a", what we, the "created", want and wish is more important, since this alleged "God" presumably puts our own wants and wishes(and thus, our "freewill") ahead of it's very own will. But yet, when we listen to theists unceasingly minister to us about this very same "God" and it's desires for us, it would seem quite to the contrary.
Look, obviously, no sane person would "want", and/or "wish", to be mercilessly incinerated in perpetuity, if they in fact honestly believed that this could happen to them. Um, duh? So, if this "free" f%cking "will" is so central to biblegod's desires, why is our "freewill" influenced one way, or the other? Why have a system of reward and punishment(torture), if "freewill" is so important??? It's contradictory, and makes even less sense considering biblgod's "omniscience"(imagine that)
In any event, would any theist like to put it into terms that make even a little bit of sense? Listening
Me: O.K. it’s one thing that we have a freedom to run amok. So we can choose to be evil. Fine. What is not fine is that it seems that when someone partakes in evil, the evil that is inflicted tends to fall upon the shoulders of the innocent.
Seems to me, that the pedophile’s freedom to commit child abuse really outweighs the child freedom of remaining unmolested. The child/rape victim has no choice.
A benevolent god would protect the innocent from the snarky intension of the evildoer.
To Boomslang: Thank you for replying. You said "Ultimately, which is more important, then? Is it, a) what "we want and wish"?, or b) what the alleged creator of the Universe wants and wishes?".
When I love someone and know the sacrifices they made for me or their own love for me, I would want to do many things that makes them happy and pleases them. However, each person shows their love in different ways. For example, if you love your husband or wife and truly love them, if it comes down to it, you are willing to sacrifice things you have or even your life if needed to satisfy their needs or make them happy. The same with God. If there is a Christian who fears God, he will probably not follow him as much as a Christian who love God. If I love God, I would want to do what makes him happy because I LOVE HIM not because I am scared of hell.
You said: Look, obviously, no sane person would "want", and/or "wish", to be mercilessly incinerated in perpetuity, if they in fact honestly believed that this could happen to them. Um, duh? So, if this "free" f%cking "will" is so central to biblegod's desires, why is our "freewill" influenced one way, or the other? Why have a system of reward and punishment(torture), if "freewill" is so important???
I am going to explain this to you the way I understand and the way I have been taught to understand it. If you take a shower and go outside when it is really cold, you will get sick (most of the time). You have the free will of doing what you want (going out right after taking a shower). You have that free will but with that freedom comes consequences. I will catch a cold. I had the choice and I chose.
Listen, I am not nor will I ever be in a position to tell you who is going to heaven and who is going to hell because God is more merciful and more loving that any human being that ever walked this earth. And every person has good qualities and bad qualities and while people choose to look at the bad to judge each other, God looks at the good. Another example that I can give you is punishment for crime. Do you believe that a person who has for example killed 10 people be allowed to live as everyone else? At least for the protection of others, he is isolated from the community.
See most people see this religion as a relationship of fear--the tyrant (God) and the helpless (humans). I can tell you that if Christianity (as faith) was based on fear, it would have never survived that long. People do more for love than fear.
"O.K. it’s one thing that we have a freedom to run amok. So we can choose to be evil. Fine. What is not fine is that it seems that when someone partakes in evil, the evil that is inflicted tends to fall upon the shoulders of the innocent."
It seems that the person who commented before you (boomslang) prefers the idea of free will. Okay to reply to your comment, a person who is sexually molested whether a child or an older person probably felt something that I can never imagine or even begin to describe. No one deserves something like that ever. And I also understand that the notion of these molesters being punished does not change the fact of what they have done. However, some people do find justice in the punishment of those who have done them wrong.
However, other people feel that nothing could be done to erase what was done to them. God gave us the free will to do what we want, good as well as evil. However, he does not turn his back on those who ask him for help. He might help them or "make it up to them" in different ways. For example, if you know the story of Joseph in the old testament whose brothers sold him and told their father that he was dead. Joseph was innocent and his brothers were the evil doers. However, after many years, he became what is equivalent to present day prime minister in Egypt. It turned out that he became greater than any of his brothers. He actually saved them and they owed their lives to him.
I understand that this might not really answer to your comment. But there is something that I began to feel throughout my life and that is the idea that there is a balance to things in life. Taking the total, God does not give to one person more than he gives to another. For example, you might find a rich person that is unhappy in his live and a poor person that finds happiness in simple ordinary things. If a person was sexually molested as a child, he might one day become one of the leaders in raising awareness about the solutions and prevention of child molestation and might save many children from future crimes.
A final comment: Just like there is so much evil in the world, there is also much good. If people believe in the good and spread the good, then evil will not find a place. Even though we do not see it because we probably don't know about it, God does protect many from evil and harm.
Except if we don't choose correctly, he'll toss us into an everlasting torture chamber bereft of the opportunity for reformation or parole. Eternal life in God's loving prison of horror for using "free will."
Makes about as much sense as giving to all who ask.
BTW, may I have the ten spot now? Still waiting for you to obey your imaginary friend.
If Christianity included no threat of horrific everlasting torture, how many do you suppose would be Christian? If Christianity said, "God loves you and wants to have a relationship with you, but if you choose not to have a relationship with him, it's OK, because he is the epitome of love and would never take jealous revenge on you for exercising the free will He gave you," I think you'd have considerably fewer mega churches.
"God does bless good but he does not bless evil."
Yes, you're right. I did write that, and didn't remember. I suppose I simply should have re-quoted the Bible there: "Love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil."
Somehow in my mind I equated blessings with kindness. Perhaps I should have equated blessings with rewards? And if God doesn't bless evil people, how the hell does anyone get saved? Aren't we all supposedly evil?
Whatever.
That’s so nice that your god would reach out to all the evildoers once they repent and all.
But here's my problem, out of the 8 close friends I had in high school, 4 were molested; furthermore, so was my cousin (me mum’s sister daughter). I shall tell her story.
My cousin rode that little yellow bus that would come through her neighborhood every Sunday from the time she was 6 years old. And, boy, did she know that Jesus loved her. Why? Because the Bible told her so.
So at 10 years of age, when she finally got fed being the punching bag of the family she prayed. She prayed because God loved her, and Jesus loved her, and her Sunday school teacher told her that God would help you if you were in need and were sincere. She prayed. She prayed that her mother would stop smacking her, and her dad would quit verbally taking his rage out on her and her brother would stop diddling with her. She prayed a lot and often. She begged but to no avail. The abuse kept coming and she was desperate.
So, since God didn’t see fit to help her, my cousin, in her desperation prayed to Satan.
She was 10 years old, kneeling in her backyard, behind the garage where the family kept the dog. She was kneeling in dog shit. Begging Satan to stop the abuse because as her church told her: “The devil awaitin’ for ya. Always awaitin.’ He’d do anything for a soul."
The abuse didn’t stop. So, at 10 years of age, she knew: there is no god. And she remains an atheist to this day. She in her mid-30s.
So once again, it’s so nice that your god would reach out to all the evildoers once they repent and all.
But maybe, your god in between curing bunions, stopping toothaches, finding car keys, and forgiving pedophiles, he could throw down a cock block before a 10-year old is kneeling in dog shit praying to Satan.
Your god is an asshole.
I think the number would be fewer but it would still have many followers. Like it or not most people NEED to feel like there is more to life than what we see. And as a "philosophy" Christianity works for me. Love thy neighbor, give to those in need. It works. Even the Dali Lama (not sure about spelling there) said that Christianity works if EVERYBODY follows the rules.
I do have a hard time reconciling the "non-believers" go to hell forever part. It doesn't sit well at all with me. I feel sick whenever I think about it. I can't explain or understand how it's fair and right and I have not heard any explaination that satisfies me either.
Thank you for replying. You[boomSLANG] said[asked] "Ultimately, which is more important, then? Is it, a) what "we want and wish"?, or b) what the alleged creator of the Universe wants and wishes?".[bold added]
Justice responds to my simple and direct question with:
"When I love someone and know the sacrifices they made for me or their own love for me, I would want to do many things that makes them happy and pleases them. However, each person shows their love in different ways. For example, if you love your husband or wife and truly love them, if it comes down to it, you are willing to sacrifice things you have or even your life if needed to satisfy their needs or make them happy. The same with God. If there is a Christian who fears God, he will probably not follow him as much as a Christian who love God. If I love God, I would want to do what makes him happy because I LOVE HIM not because I am scared of hell.
Forgive me, but was that an "a"?..or a "b"?
Waiting.
I checked out your blogger page. Does your band have a name or a website?
But yet, you must reconcile that part in order to be a True Christian™. Keeping that concept in mind---you must reconcile that entire groups of human beings will presumably be mercilessly incinerated, simply due to their geographical location on the earth. 'Sound ridiculous? Yes? Well, that's because it is ridiculous, and if you're a critically thinking human being, it should be a "red flag"; a wake-up call, that Christianity is nothing more than propaganda made by primative man in a primative time.
David: I checked out your blogger page. Does your band have a name or a website?
Yes, of course we have a name...and yes, we have a unofficial Myspace site, as well as the official site. Since I know where this is likely going, let me just say that the official site has a forum, one where I frequently debated fans in the religious/spiritual discussion section. What I found was that the fans would become indignant because of my brutal honesty on the subject of theology. As you can imagine, that created a conflict of interest, which is why I blog under an alias, and why I do not disclose the band's identity.
When it comes to music related inquiry, the fans expect and deserve nothing less than honesty, yet, for some reason, the Christian fans would expect me to "tip-toe" around them because of who I am. 'Not gonna happen.
I don't think it is "thinking critically" to call something ridiculous just because you don't understand it fully. There is a lot about Christianity I don't like, a lot I don't understand, and a lot that needs to be changed. But I am not going to just throw away all my beliefs because I don't understand one aspect of it. I also will not blindly believe anything someone with a cross or a computer tells me.
BTW,
The idea of an internationally known band that is popular and that no one is allowed to know about is really cool. I am the CFO of a well known oil company that is known internationally, but I can't tell you which one. I also have invented the hybrid car and sold the design to a major car company. That is also a secret.
Who decides who is worthy to recive? I have given to my community as a firefighter, put my life on the line for others with no reward financially. I have served with the Sheriff's office on their Victim response team and have gotten up at all hours to serve others. Yet when we were vicitmized by a crimanal, there is no one there to help us. When I ask for help I am rejected by all including supposed Christians. I do not get welfare or food stamps, my daughter gets medicaid because of seizures. We have gone without our own home and a car for over two years. Am I not worthy of help?
I died when I was 17 and was dead for over 30 minutes, I saw no hell, there was no judgment only unconditional love and a great and enormous peace.
On earth everyone is greedy and selfish and fearful that someone may get some good.
There is so much stuff yet ask for help and everyone acts as if it is the worst thing. They say if someone asks on my behalf, then maybe. But jesus said "ask and ye shall recieve." Obviously he was not talking about humans.
They tell me they will pray for me, in other words we will not be God's hands and feet and feed his sheep. I feel like the man in the good samaritan story, still lying on the side of the road hoping someone still cares.
Just a clue, but you will not need your things there, you will have no body to use them. So is it so terrible to give to another? We through mopney at the Katrina victims, but helping just one human seems beyond us.
As for me I will not claim a label such as Christianity, unless I walk the talk all the time. And I have. I met a women with dreadlocks and a baby, she needed $150 to get a car to go to work. I gave it to her, why because she needed it and I had it and God put her in my way and gave me the opportunity to pass the good he gave to me on to her, knowing he would repay me. Money is just paper we put a value on, yet we value the lives around us not at all. Save the planet, give money. Save the animals, give money, stop abortion, give money, support our cause, give money. Help each other, hell no.
"Makes about as much sense as giving to all who ask.
BTW, may I have the ten spot now? Still waiting for you to obey your imaginary friend".
My Reply: I gave you the 10 dollars. I paid it at about 11:30pm yesterday (Monday November 5, 2007). That is why I said congratulations!
I missed the email stating I'd received your donation.
May I have another $10?
Whatever."
My response: The verse the you quoted about loving your enemies. Do you believe that loving my enemy is the same as blessing them? I love and I am willing to forgive them. If they are in a tight spot I would help them. I don't kill my enemy because of hate. I forgive them because of love. I DON'T BLESS their actions. If they are doing wrong, I don't bless their actions. I love them for their person for THEM. I should be kind to everyone that asks of me but that does not mean that I encourage what they are doing if it is wrong.
God is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Kindness is not that same as blessing. God is kind to all of humanity because he created it. He loves every one of us because he created us with His hands. But if we harm each other or do evil, God does not bless that.
You said: And if God doesn't bless evil people, how the hell does anyone get saved? Aren't we all supposedly evil?
People get saved because of God's kindness. If God blessed evil, wouldn't that mean that people who do evil will get more in return and not want to leave their ways? People get saved because of God's mercy and his kindness and love for mankind not because he is blessing their evil actions.
To you last questions (Aren't we all supposedly evil?) I do not think that is a logical notion. If you have ever seen a new born child and looked into his/her eyes, you would not see evil. You would see purity, innocence, simplicity. Everyone is born like that. As we make our decisions, we influence what we become. We can keep this innocence and purity or we can lose it. But we were created good and the best proof is a child's face!
I said if you think critically, it should be a "red flag". That means, at the very least, if it doesn't make sense at face-value, then you should examine it a little closer, which, it appears you already did... since you said:
I do have a hard time reconciling the "non-believers" go to hell forever part.
In the future, please don't misconstrue my words, okay? Thanks.
Let the record show that it is purely my opinion that being "guilty" by non-association is ridiculous. In my OPINION, it would seem that the creator of the entire universe could come up with a better "plan" than that...but of course, from a theist POV, "God" can do what "God" wants, and it doesn't have to make sense, because....well, because "God" is "God", right? 'Nothing circular about that, is there?
David: There is a lot about Christianity I don't like, a lot I don't understand, and a lot that needs to be changed.
Changed? But what about the axiom that "God's Word is UNchanging". It seems that you, like many Christians, seek to establish your own brand of Christianity, yes? Regardless, if "God's Word" is subject to change, then I'm not quite sure how or why we should consider it the "Universal/objective Truth" that it's adherents claim it to be in the first place. Please elaborate if you wish.
David: The idea of an internationally known band that is popular and that no one is allowed to know about is really cool. I am the CFO of a well known oil company that is known internationally, but I can't tell you which one. I also have invented the hybrid car and sold the design to a major car company. That is also a secret.
Well, pAiNt me red and call me the Devil!!!!!
But seriously, y'know what, Davey? I really don't give a flying fuck to perdition if you believe me, or not, m'kay? I'm not offering you the information with conditions attached; you are perfectly free to reject it. Although, I'm pretty sure you've taken far less credible things on "Faith", haven't you?... so, you might give that a try.
Since men have already added and removed text from the bible we must assume that His word has already changed, as it pertains to us here on Earth. I do not wish to change His Word, just to know what it Truly is. If a group of men back in 400 A.D. or their about removed text then they may have also re-written it. I do still read the bible, God can still speak to me through those scriptures. I do believe that God's Word is unchanging, but that does not mean that men haven't done some creative editing. I do not believe that the bible is without error, and admitting that is difficult.
And take it easy will ya? Don't get all upset. I was just bust balls about the band thing. I don't care who you are.
This is remarkable. Okay, if "men" have "already added and removed text" from the "His Word" at the discretion of man, then how/why, logically, should we not believe that the bible is simply the word OF MAN? And what makes you so sure it wasn't the word of MEN in the first place?
After you attempt that, perhaps you'd like tell us how you reconcile that there are 33,000 some-odd denominations/sects of Christianity, none of which are in full agreement on the alleged essentials. That certainly doesn't sound like objective/Universal truth, to me.
David: as it[the bible] pertains to us here on Earth.
Um, exactly where ELSE would it "pertain" to "us"?
David: And take it easy will ya? Don't get all upset. I was just bust balls about the band thing. I don't care who you are.
I might take it easy; I might not. Know this---if you're going to call me a liar; if you're going to mock me, do it with balls...don't back-peddle...okay Christian?
Now, where again is your objective evidence that Christianity is a "God-inspired" Objective Universal Truth, and all other religions are false?
Waiting.
I'll answer your major questions tomorrow. And I wasn't back-peddling, but if you want "more balls" (I'm not surprised by the way) then you got it.
Talk to you later, LIAR.
Dave
My full name is in this thread somewhere and I'm in the book. If you want to spend the time and look it up then fine. We'll have a nice chat. Maybe we can meet up and have coffee. Who knows, maybe we'll REALLY hit it off and well....you know.
1) I think you're lying about the personal information given in your blogger profile.
2) Therefore, you must be lying.
3) Therefore, God exists.
Wow.
Not really forthcoming, but should anyone be surprised.
"If you want to spend the time and look it up then fine."
Typical evasion.
"We'll have a nice chat."
Wishful thinking.
"Maybe we can meet up and have coffee."
Sounds like a proposition.
"Who knows, maybe we'll REALLY hit it off and well....you know."
No, I really don't know. However, I'm quite sure you know what you "REALLY" seem to want to do - and you have no idea of my gender ;-)
But like I said before: whatever. Have it your way.
Now your inference that we are not born with Original Sin, but born innocent and pure, is particularly interesting. The reason that is an interesting idea to me, is because it is antithetical to the orthodox Christian position in every major denomination. It's one of those cornerstone "truths" which hold up the whole "fallen man" scenario.
However, once again: whatever. It's all nonsense anyway.
The blogger profile argument for God's existence:
1) I think you're lying about the personal information given in your blogger profile.
2) Therefore, you must be lying.
3) Therefore, God exists.
Wow.
Boom,
Are you serious? I don't think your lying, I don't care. I think your a freaking idiot for keeping your internationally renowned band anonymous. Whatever.
I don't have the objective evidence you want.
I missed the email stating I'd received your donation.
May I have another $10?"
My response: I really apologize but I cannot give you another $10 for three reasons.
1) You original message that started this whole blog was asking only for $10.
2) I do not have the money to keep on giving you $10
3) I wanted to prove to you and I guess also to me that people giving you $10 is not going to change your point of view. It is not going to change what you believe in. Even if the whole world gave you $10 each you still would not believe that there might be true Christians out there.
However, before leaving this blog, I wanted to thank you for giving me the opportunity to become a part of this and see for myself what kinds of arguments and feels are revealed. I wish you the best truly with all my heart.
With love,
Justice2387
You seem to see them in opposition so that we have to pick one or the other. I see them in harmony so my answer is both a AND b combined.
However, if you see them in opposition, then A would have to be my answer
I want to thank you for keeping up with me and my long answers that might seem very redundant. haha. I believe that I have to leave this blog or else I am going to fail all 15 units that I am taking this quarter because I don't have the time to study. I wish you all the best and I hope that you find the answer to your questions.
Thank you,
Justice2387
I am really sorry about your cousin and I hope she is in a much better atmosphere now. I have two things to tell you before I leave this forum:
1) There are so many things that happen in life that we cannot explain. That we do not have an answer to. They seem evil and sad. I cannot give you an answer of why that happened to your cousin--maybe if someone from the church or from you family actually tried to fix the problem instead of just watching or talking about it; maybe it could have been solved it. And I wish I had the answers but I don't because we are human and we are limited in our abilities and thoughts.
My second point that I want to say is that for the past three years of my life I have had 4 people that I know die. Three of them in car accidents--they were my age (around 20). The fourth one is my aunt because of a lack in hospital care. of the three youth that died in my life, 2 were close to me. One of them was engaged to be married. She was driving her finance home and on her way back her car flipped and she flew out of the car landing on her head and she died instantly. Her mom had already been separated from her husband and now she lost her daughter. All she was left with was her other daughter. I do not know why this happened. And I often, like a child, wish to God that he would bring her back so that she would get married and live a happy life that we all dream about in our youth. But I know she will not come back and her family had made peace with it because they know that she is in heaven and is happy. She died the week of thanksgiving.
The other person that died a year before her was driving on the freeway back to school after celebrating Christmas with his family. It was in January of 2005 (since my church celebrated Christmas in January). He saw an accident that just happened on the freeway and it was raining very hard. He stopped and as he was running across the freeway to help the people in the accident a car did not see him soon enough because of the rain and it hit him. He stayed for one week at the hospital and then he died.
I always questioned why God would take the lives of those two people who were good people and tried to help those around them (The cause of the death of one of them). I mean it is not like they were evil and God wanted to take his revenge on them as some people in this blog might believe. I wish I could bring them back to their families and friends. But I can't. Life is full of hardships and pain and everyone feels that pain at least once in their lives.
I apologize for not having an answer for you. I wish I did so that I can ease your pain. I wish you and your cousin the very best. If you ever decide to go back to Christianity, please pray for me.
I will not be involved in this forum since I cannot get any of my work done ever since I discovered it.
Best regards,
Justice2387
Proving there are no true Christians is not really the point of this article, J#s. Getting ten dollars is not the point. The point is the discussion that was and still is being generated.
Now go get some work done so you can give ten whole dollars to the next person you run into who challenges your "True Christianity™."
After careful consideration, I feel that, yes, when I get around to it, I will change my profile to simply say "musician/bassplayer".
As for keeping my band's website anonymous(to the blogger world), I feel it is no more "idiotic" than anyone one else who lists their profession/career/interests, etc, but who does not see fit to disclose a literal/physical address, or "link", to their place of business. Furthermore, your grilling me on the issue, along with your ad hominem approach, has me thinking that I'd rather lose out on a sale, than have a "fan" like you. However, I do appreciate your candidness on issue of not having evidence for your beliefs. Thanks....and I guess that's about it, right? Right.
Bye.
You guys? Who are you addressing? And your reference to going back and forth: What exactly are you asking?
You (webmaster) are the swine. The teaching to give to others is the pearl.
You trample the teachings of Christ under your foot and use it to harm God's people.
Yes, you have HARMED many people by behaving like a vampire.
If you reject the teachings of Christ you are already dammed, so I cannot do anything but say "Sorry".
Jesus said: "Do not cast your pearls before swine..
So what's wrong with "swine"?
I think they're kinda CUTE actually.
Even better, they never try to convert the world into believing in their fictitious god(s).
Porky Pig
Thanks for providing confirmation of the point of this article.
And have a tremendous Thanksgiving!
Without an actual god, there are no "God's people" to be harmed... Just millions of individuals who have crippled their own mortal lives by uncritical belief in thoroughly disgusting religious fairy tales. The damage was done long, long before this website came into existence.
And teachings that can be 'trampled' by skeptics simply aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
May you be liberated from your addiction to the egotistical, brutal and thankfully imaginary god of the Bible.
First, I would agree with you, if you would have said there is no perfect Christian. But you chose
to use “ true”. Why are you using true in the place of perfect? There are many true Christians, no
perfect ones just like you are not a perfect American. As an American, I am sure that you have
broken many rules. Have you run a red light lately? Have you cheated on taxes. Have you broken
any of America’s precious rules? Maybe you should be labeled as an untrue American! How does
that sound?
Second, I noticed that you have been preying on Christians for the last 5 years to try and prove
your point. Do you also slap them on the cheek so that they can turn the other? Do you secretly
wish to crucify them all? Why do you strike me as a bully? You should know exactly where
Jesus was coming from, if you were a Christian! My guess is that you never experienced “True”
Christianity. He definitely did not mean to give money to every con man that comes along. You
missed the point big time! My friend, believe me what I tell you. We will all be judged whether
Christian or anti-Christ. You may want to examine what Jesus said about offending the little
ones. You can read it in Matthew 18:6.
Third, What do you believe in? Do you believe in evolution? I would rather believe that I was
created by a God. I can’t believe that I evolved from some monkey! I rather worship a God! I
would rather believe that a God had something to do with my existence. Again let me refer you
to another scripture. James 1:5 . God gives wisdom liberally to those who ask.
May God Bless
"You should know exactly where
Jesus was coming from, if you were a Christian! My guess is that you never experienced “True” Christianity. He definitely did not mean to give money to every con man that comes along."
See what I mean? You attempt to weasel out of paying ten bucks by pretending to read the mind of an imaginary Jewish god-man, asserting that your interpretation is more valid than the Webmaster's understanding.
"I would rather believe that I was
created by a God. I can’t believe that I evolved from some monkey! I rather worship a God! I would rather believe that a God had something to do with my existence."
What on earth for? The scientific evidence for primates having a common ancestor is rather compelling, should you ever decide to put away your superstitions and study the actual science for yourself. It's written right in our DNA, for crying out loud.
And I really don't see any particular advantage to being created by a god. Any god. Are you really so insecure in your own humanity that you need validation from an imaginary guy in the sky?
You said you would rather believe... Really? Well, I would rather live in reality. I choose reality, even if it is less romantic sounding.
What do I believe in? You'll have to explain your question to me. I do not believe in gods or goddesses, that's all. Evolution is irrelevant to the discussion. Let's suppose, for the sake of conversation, that evolution is a big pile of poo. So what? Creationism isn't automatically validated if evolution is false. Creationism would still need to be studied on it's own merit. It's not an either this or that proposition.
And besides, if your mythology does explain the genesis of man, your forefather is dirt.
May reason one day be part of your life.
Not to be too rude, but I have come to the conclusion that a big part of being able to accept christianity and all it's mind bending mental gymnastics is just pure ignorance! You don't have to be dumb to be ignorant, christians! I know-I was.
Once you start to study and read you will ask yourselves how you could have been duped so easily.
Then, come on back.
Thank you
$10.00!
Reason #1..If you go back and read in Luke 6:30 and Matthew 5:40 It does not specify to give
money. It says to “ give to all that asks”. Give what? Do you agree that this giving could refer to
anything? It could be ones time, maybe some knowledge, maybe even the gift of healing. If you
refer to Acts 3:6 You will find that Peter had no money to give. He gave what he had and healed
the man.
Reason #2..Since the passage does not specify money, it would leave the door open for the
webmaster to ask for my wife or maybe even my children. Obviously, I am not open to that sort
of interpretation, to prove my Faith.
Reason 3.. My understanding of this passage is to help the poor and those in need. Sorry, I do not
believe that the webmaster is in need of my $10.00.
Insecure? Yes, I will admit it. That is one of the reasons I chose Christ as my Lord and Savior.
May God Bless
I disagree. And to Me, the proof is the long list of excuses, uh, "reasons" that you so thoughtfully provided.
It says to “ give to all that asks”. Give what? Do you agree that this giving could refer to anything?
No. Again, I disagree. If you have what is asked for (and I assume that you do have access to $10.00), then that is what you give.
My understanding of this passage is to help the poor and those in need.
Not interested in your "understanding." Not in the least. It costs money to run this site, especially when so much of the bandwidth is used by unwelcome visitors such as yourself.
If you're going to come here and whine and yap at us about "Jesus" this and "Jesus" that, the very least you can do is pay your own way. Web servers don't grow on trees.
That goes for the rest of you well-meaning intruders. Put up or shut up.
#1 Even though that passage doesn't specify money, it doesn't negate giving monitarily. Right? And if someone were to ask for healing would you give them your underwear, or would you give them what they asked for?
#2 Yes, the passage doesn't specify you give only money, but it doesn't negate giving of your wife or children either. You seem to love your family more than you wish to follow jesus. (luke 14:26)
#3 Astreja took care of this one. Your understanding is not what you should be directed by as a christian. Right?
Give the money and be glad webmaster isn't in need of a wife.
Why are you so upset? You are losing touch with reality! You should try and correct that
problem!
First, I did not know that I was unwelcome. I did not see anything forbidding Christians from
this site. In fact, the very first article is asking Christians to prove their faith. Now you want to
fuss at me for defending the Faith. Is this your site?
Second, You say that you are not interested in my understanding of the passage. You’re the one
that jumped in on the conversation! You must have been interested, because my mail was
originally directed to webmaster! Maybe you should try and correct that habit also.
Ok, enough said, I still love you.
May God Bless
anything?"
Hmm, let's see. It says, "And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."
In other words, give MORE than is asked of you.
If you want to disobey your invisible, immaterial, mythological man-god, who only lives and exists in your imagination and nowhere in reality, that's entirely up to you. However, the command of this storybook character named Yeshua is clear: Give generously to all who ask, and I'm only asking for ten bucks.
Initially I wasn't going to respond to you at all, Joe, because your question has been answered numerous times in the comments above. Astreja's response was especially concise and clear. And in typical self-appointed-defender-of-majick style, you didn't attempt to answer the points Astreja presented, in stead you rudely made personal insults concluding it with an empty "I love you."
Thank you Joe. Thank you for confirming by your actions and your disobedience that there are no true Christians.
Well, you aren't one.
Ok, here we go again. You take the position that there is no true Christian and there is no God. An
atheist at heart ! This is not a logical position to hold.
Man must live by some type of moral laws. We must have some absolute truths somewhere.
Without these truths we could not function as a society. The 10 Commandments were laws to
benefit society, not to destroy it. Now my question to you is. Where do you get your truths? Is it
from society? Then you would have to adapt to the rules of the area you live in. Is it from your
conscience? How do you know if that can be trusted? Basically, you have no right to determine
what is wrong or right. You are positioning yourself to be the God.
After reading your article that was posted 6-20-02, I noticed that you made reference to a God.
And what God may this be? Is it the same one that you and your audience make fun of? Seems
that he was still on your mind when the article was written. My guess is that you are not a true
atheist. Or, should I say? A perfect one!
Webmaster writes:
“It may be that God will judge me harshly for taking advantage of his sheep in this way. It may be
I am only heaping damnation unto myself. But be that as it may, that does not absolve the true
Christian from his or her obligation to obey the Lord, thus proving their true love of HIM. “
May God Bless
Uh, you're the one who believes in an invisible guy in the sky. Pot, meet kettle. *clang*
Is this your site?
No, but I do support it financially.
Ok, enough said, I still love you.
I, on the other hand, am starting to rather dislike you. (dispatches elite squadron of Wallet-Disappearing Faeries to Joe's locale)
And, regarding your comment to the Webmaster on morality:
Man must live by some type of moral laws. We must have some absolute truths somewhere.
False. Absolute truths are not required in order to have social order. All we need is observations based on real-life experiences.
An example: "Hmm, if I kill John Doe and take his cattle, his brother will probably kill me in revenge. I remember what happened to Fred when he tried to do something like that."
See how simple it is? No gods required.
I would say that human beings need some sort of moral understandings that are generally considered universal maxims so as to maintain a safe and orderly society. A cursory examination of history reveals that experimentation in these areas by society and the resultant societal evolution is what has brought us where we are today. For instance, for thousands of years, NO ONE condemned slavery. Even Bible-god sanctioned slavery. Even Paul, the self-appointed leader of Christianity, sanctioned slavery. Yet I'll bet that you think slavery is a sin, right? Well, I have no problem calling slavery a sin against humanity. Yet, somehow, your invisible all-seeing-eye god, puts His blessing on slavery time after time, according to your collected book of Jewish mythology.
Now, while all this discussion is very interesting, you still have failed to obey your master and extend to me ten measly dollars. You are full of hinted threats of everlasting torment doled out in a bizarre torture chamber created for those that piss on your god, but when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is, it appears there is no substance behind your religious fervor outside of empty words.
So far, you've lent considerable support and credence to my position, namely, that there are NO "True Christians™."
A bear hug, a pinch on the cheek, and a big wet sloppy kiss to Joe, because he says he loves me sooooooo much.
How would you describe that "relationship"? Is it more like you are talking to an imaginary figure that you call Christ when in fact you are talking to yourself? Could you-deep down inside- BELIEVE that when you have some problems in your life you actually tell these problems to Christ (for instance when standing in front of a cruzifix) and in fact you are just talking to a statue?
And then after you have been talking to the cruzifix something happens- negative or positive- your "prayers" have been answered. And then you talk to Christ again by saying "thank you" in prayer.
In Thailand I saw people talking to Buddhist statues- claiming to have "a relationship" to Buddha...when they have problems they tell these problems to their imaginary golden statute called Buddha...they claim to have "a relationship to Buddha"...well- it kind of sounds like having a relationship to Christ is like having a relationship to your teddybear in your bed back home...whenever you feel bad you talk to him and tell him your problems...and then maybe your problems are solved- and you say "thank you" to your teddybear...do you get the point?
It is all psychological- up in your mind- "praying is a psychological process"- it makes you feel better- because you have somebody who you THINK listens to you...and that makes you feel better...
comment 500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please do not ask why I did this.
Yours in anonymity,
Anonymous.
You've got really good thought provoking arguments that should inspire people to think harder and possibly realize that faith is not a viable shield for not ignoring alternate arguments or failing to have the facts to defend one's opinion.
keep up the good work. :)
I have noticed that loving God rather than
worrying about being a member of some
religion has saved me a lot of money.
Those quotes from Jesus would be interesting
to discuss with Jesus. I can understand that a spiritual person might have no-self interest but I do have a
difficult time understanding how a person can give
away everything and pay the bills?
The ideal expressed is part of much spiritual thinking
on the planet so a person sending you the $10 might
also be a "born again" Brahman, Buddhist, or whatever.
Since I do not claim any particular religion, I just saved
$10 towards my bills. If you will send me $10, then I'll
send you my address.
By the way, as I understand it, God already has
everything so God does not need anyone's money.
However, if a person does have a need to follow a
religious sect, then the sect does need contributions.
So be it.
It also seems to me that if everyone followed Jesus'
advice we would be living in a utopia. It is also my
understanding that Jesus survived His ministry years
by accepting contributions (I'm sure Jesus would enjoy
you ribbing Him about that relative to His statements).
Your $10 contribution to me would probably not be
accepted (I'm only joking); so I'm presently happy with
a situation where hopefully I can continue to pay my
own way.
By the way, Jesus did believe in His own deity; but He
also believed in the eventual deity of human beings who
are interested in working in the Universe. Man is not
actually separated from God. Mankind is merely a part
of what is indicated by the word symbol "GOD".
Dan
Perhaps I'm just misreading this.....
"and just as Christians and ex-Christians back everything by scripture, so is this fact"
Did you just say that we ex-xtians back everything by scripture?
ATF
I see where you were coming from.
However, I have to wonder about this book you say you're writing.
Will the entire book be written with the CAPS key engaged?
I sure hope you plan on using a grammar/spell checker as an assistant as well?
What type of background research have you done so far on the subject of your upcoming book?
While all of us here know "jesus did not die for our sins", that is mainly because we know he was a myth.
I take it you're saying that you have evidence that the bible itself might show he didn't die for this sin purpose?
ATF (Who is starting to think that he might be more qualified to write a book, than he knew before)
Attached?
What attached?
ATF
I'm only sorry I couldn't read all of the comments put down here; that's worse than reading War and Peace and Les Miserables in the same month in their original languages.
First of all, I'm not a Christian, which should make you quite happy to hear. But I'm not going to help you in your religion gang-bang either. Look, speaking from a secular, but reasonably moral standpoint, I think that asking for money from these people simply because one out of three characters in their monotheistic religion tells them to give it is wrong. Secularly speaking you shouldn't take advantage of other people and their beliefs. Whatever happened to the tolerance that you seek for yourself as a religious (or lack thereof) minority? Would you really want people to take advantage of your own psychological weaknesses?
Why don't you let it go? Is there any reason to really devote your time and effort at knocking someone down?
I was raised Agnostic, became a Christian for about a year, then turned around based on what you and I can both agree as overwhelming evidence that this religion is a bad idea. I'm not Agnostic anymore, and I'm not sure where I'm going on the spiritual path. I know one thing though; if I were writing this a year ago in response to your ironic twist of Jesus' commands I would have depened my faith. Attacking someone's religion doesn't help your atheist cause because it further engraines them by alienating them from the rest of society. You're psychologically hurting people who are already psychologically fucked. And now you're stealing their money by putting them in a hypocritical bind. I'm not going to tell you not to do it, and there isn't going to be a hell for you to land in when this is all over. But think about it man. You're pretty bitter.
And since I'm not a Christian, and also because I'm a poor college student with no way to pay you electronically, I won't be giving you the ten dollars you deserve. Yes, you deserve it, but not because you challenged a Christian's faith or because you were clever about how to get the money of vulnerable people. You deserve it because that's what bitter people like yourself deserve en lieu of any comfort in, albeit a lie, religion. You get 10 bucks at an ever decreasing value. Think of your soul, or should I say your rationale for reason, as the ten dollars that ultimately devalues and ultimately deepens the indoctrination and alienation of people who probably shouldn't have to be tricked into loosing money over religion.
Jake Snow
ATF (Who has no time left to answer him tonight)
Dear 'saved' James,
You seem to be very confused here James, so let me set you straight.
First off, I (ATF) am just one of the frequent members to this website and made some comments in this thread, like many others have done also.
I have no idea why you chose to write to me about this matter of "10 bucks"?
I do believe the webmaster (Dave) has something posted on the site about xtians sending $10 to support the site, so perhaps you should be posting to him instead.
You have found one single page on a website that consist of hundreds of pages, if not thousands by now.
I did not write the main article here on this very old (circa 2002) topic of "No True Christians", that you just commented under.
I'm sure the author won't be answering you anytime soon.
Now about the other things you said.....
The sad news for you is that if you put your faith in Christ at some point you now have God's DNA in you!
Seeing as how you are talking about something quite physical, "DNA", then I'm sure you can point to the scientific research that shows one's DNA makeup changes, or that one has extra DNA, "GOD's DNA", floating around in their body once they become part of your god, yes?
If you can't, then are we suppose to just take your word for this oddity?
I will send you another 10bucks if you print my comment
Well your commented got posted, or as you put it, "PRINTED", so please send our Webmaster Dave that extra $10 ASAP.
Just think of it as a belated xmas present for our Ex-Xtian cause, okay?
You are a member of God's forever family!
Thanks James, but I'll have to pass on your offer here.
All of us were once part of that God-Family and couldn't be happier that we left them.
It just became to painful to be around folks who have a huge delusion of believing that some bible god exists, but have no evidence to support their beliefs.
More so, who in their right mind after reading about the god of the old-testament would want any part of THAT sadistic childish god?
ATF (Who does not own this GREAT website, nor is he a moderator of it either)
Go to the top of this page and, just to the right of the centre and just below the centre, you will see a facility to donate to the running of this site.
Please use it, and thanks for your support.
Peace,
David
No, I'm not the webmaster. I'm just a nobody who escaped the death-cult which is xtianity.
If you want to contact the webmaster there is a "contact" facility at the top of every page - towards the top right. It is the rightmost of the main set of menu options.
Peace,
David
Read the article. If you choose to disobey your god, then so be it. In the meantime, the request stands.
When it comes to putting money where the mouth is, Christians seem to prefer mouthing for free.
Why do most of you xtians keep harping-on about our 'hate' for 'god' ?
Is it really THAT difficult to understand that your god is a figment of your imagination and nothing more than that?
We can't hate a thing, that in our judgement, just doesn't exists, anymore than you can presently 'hate' some reptilian aliens that live on the planet Uranus.
However, what I do hate, is the depiction of your god, that is given via your bible story book.
I also hate that xtians can honestly conclude that this god is 'holy' and 'good' and not only side with this mythical god being, but try and fashion their own ethics/actions based on the personality of this god being.
You do realize that the only evidence you have for your god, exists solely within your own emotions, yes?
Beyond those emotions, you have no history of jesus, no eyewitnesses to any miracles performed by your beloved god, and no proof that anyone is going anywhere after they kick-the-bucket.
All you have in the end, is BLIND FAITH, nothing more, right?
So on blind faith, you're willing to live out your entire life for this god you've never seen?
How very sad delusion must be.
ATF (Who thinks the "seeds of the gospel", quickly turned into a mind-virus; with a dismal cure-rate)
However, if you are wrong---well?! Would you consider reading "miracles" by C.S.Lewis.?? Your friend in Christ james
What's with the unconvincing, loony, messengers of The Good News?
You would think -- THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE -- could wrestle up someone who could offer something, that made sense and was a cohesive, unified and unequivocal message, that all christians shared -- BUT this is not the case.
Just another example: god has nothing to do with getting his supposed message across.
If there is a god, he knows how I think and he knows where I am -- he can deliver his own message to me, personally.
This way, I can know, exactly, what he wants me to do and I don't need to rely on an ignorant christian drone's fallible, interpretation of scripture.
--S.
How ironic, when I was a "child" I believed I had an invisible friend. I believed in the Easter Bunny, Santa, and the Toothfairy, as well. No wonder that "system" seems to work for "God", too. Go figure!
Comparing the human language to invisible, conscious beings, are you? This is too asinine for rebuttal.
Continues......you still have a Friend and He is real.
Unfounded, unconfirmed assertion. But... even if I give benefit of the doubt---I don't keep "friends" who offer their "friendship" on conditions. In other words, if your invisible bestest-friend-in-the-sky actually exists, I hereby reject its offer to be my "friend". ' Understand now?
Continues....By the way faith is by far the greatest "system" of preception!
Yet, interestingly, millions of Muslims accept a god other than "Jesus" on "faith", and for sure, you'll say they're in error, in which case, "faith" evidentally is NOT the "best system", if so many people are led astray by using it.
I'll sign "bruised but still saved" yficjames
Sing it with me:
Fairy~tales~will~come~true~they~can~happen~to~you~when~you~are~delusional~at~heart~
--S.
Sconnor do you want to be convinced?
Oh, yes, please, convince me. Got any objective evidence of god's existence? If not, god knows where I am.
are you also an ex-Christian?
Yep.
or just a God hater?
Can't hate something, that I see no objective evidence for, now can I? Can......you.......grasp........that?
You will get nothing more from God than He has given to the rest of us.
Oh good, then he will come before me and prove his existence like he did with his disciples and other on-lookers when he turned water into wine, raised the dead, walked on water, etc. etc. etc.
You are required to use the same belief system you used as a child to come to Him.
Boomslang skewered your asinine and illogical assertion, above.
The vocabulary you use was acquired this same way. Your are requiring more of God than you did of those who taught you.
WTF? Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.
--S.
I guess I accepted by faith what Mom and Daddy told me about Santa Claus when I was a tiny tot. But, a few years later, I had to give in to evidence (when my older brother showed me where the presents were hidden). Faith is a lousy system because it is so easily trumped by evidence based on objective reality.
Oh well, the good thing is, it is not true that "once a Santa Believer, always a Santa believer." Similarly, the hundreds of ex-christians that visit this site prove every day that there is no truth in the old fundyism of "once saved, always saved."
Yo conner did you ask of your mom or other trusted source if they would PROVE the things they attempted to teach you? or did you accept the teaching by faith?
No. Actually, my parents encouraged me to ask questions and question authority. I was taught -- at a young age -- to ask as many questions, as I could, in school and elsewhere and not be afraid to ask, even, silly questions -- all question were good. My parents assured me, if I wanted to learn, keep asking questions. My parents valued reason over faith and they instilled that in me. Which is why I encourage my kids to question everything -- even what I assert.
I think you like to write vituperatively. I don't mind answering , as best i can, but please do not write that way.
I'll write any, damn, way, I please; if you don't like it sod off.
By the way faith is by far the greatest "system" of preception!
Boomslang skewered you, again.
In addition, if you, were in the market, to buy a brand new Lexus and you found someone, online, who told you he has a brand new Lexus, exactly, what you wanted, for sale but he wanted you to send him half the money -- car unseen -- in the mail and would collect the remainder when he delivered the car -- would you send him the money using faith that he wouldn't be scamming you?
You would be a complete a$$h@le to use this supposed greatest system of perception, you call faith.
your friend in Christ james
Get one thing straight; I am not your friend. You can make that deluded assertion, all you want but it will not make it anymore true. I abhor ignorance, which you possess, in mass quantities.
Furthermore, I noticed you chose to ignore my other arguments:
Sconnor do you want to be convinced?
Oh, yes, please, convince me. Got any objective evidence of god's existence? If not, god knows where I am.
~and~
or just a God hater?
Can't hate something, that I see no objective evidence for, now can I? Can......you.......grasp........that?
~and~
You will get nothing more from God than He has given to the rest of us.
Oh good, then he will come before me and prove his existence like he did with his disciples and other on-lookers when he turned water into wine, raised the dead, walked on water, etc. etc. etc.
I can only speculate; this is an acknowledgement, that you concede these points and that they were childish, unconvincing, ill-concieved, pathetic, arguments -- right?
Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the spot of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason and the mind becomes a wreck. -- Thomas Jefferson
--S.
s o k I will set aside your type of reasoning and hold fast to my faith. no offence do I take from you. still your friend IN Christ not because we are compatible at any point. yficjames
Your reasoning would have kept you out of the faith because "the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing"
Uh, oh -- no you didn't! You are in so much trouble. I hope you got your fireproof suit.
Matthew 5:22 -- Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
this verse answers your arguements.
You haven't answered shit. You can't respond to any of our arguments, specifically.
All you have is a deluded, cuckoo, belief, that can't stand up to the scrutiny of reason.
that'
s o k I will set aside your type of reasoning and hold fast to my faith.
Are you trying to convince me or yourself? I could give a shit.
Just keep saying it over and over again:
I will set aside your type of reasoning and hold fast to my faith
I will set aside your type of reasoning and hold fast to my faith
I will set aside your type of reasoning and hold fast to my faith
That way you can be assured of convincing yourself, and it will seem real to you.
--S.
The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be believed only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith.' -- Robert G. Ingersoll
Oh conner if i am no challenge to your thinking why do reply? I replied to who i thought was the webmaster and answered what i thought was his call for help. He needed to see a verse in the Bible fulfilled. I did not know that he meant "send $10 to support this website" That was my mistake I paid for it but you chime in with your word of reasoning "wisdom" in attack mode. I have no "reason" to answer your objections to my faith.
More incessant, babble from a deluded christian drone.
Again your diverging tactics and your refusal to address our arguments, specifically -- SPEAKS VOLUMES -- you got nothing. It's easier for you to ramble on and not address our salient and germane arguments, putting your fingers in your ears, pretending like the arguments never existed.
My faith is what it is weak or strong, able to stand up under you type of "reasoning wtih attitude" or not! Judge me you will! the judgement I recieve from my friends and family have been heavier than anything you have yet to toss! Thanks for the forum though.
I beg to differ. It is evident that you are nothing but a pussy, coward, who can't address any of the arguments presented, specifically.
which allows you to flounder about, in a bogus and delusional sense of comfort -- just ignore the arguments; they don't exist, they don't exist, they don't exist.
And again, are you trying to convince me your faith is a pillar of strength or are you trying to convince yourself? -- methinks you doth protest too much.
Just keep repeating:
my friends and family are tougher than you; your arguments don't exist
my friends and family are tougher than you; your arguments don't exist
my friends and family are tougher than you; your arguments don't exist
my friends and family are tougher than you; your arguments don't exist
--S.
Seeing as how you are talking about something quite physical, "DNA", then I'm sure you can point to the scientific research that shows one's DNA makeup changes, or that one has extra DNA, "GOD's DNA", floating around in their body once they become part of your god, yes?
_______
Hahaha. I've heard that one too. The funny thing is, after years and years of being a devoted Christian, in love with Jesus like crazy, tongue talking, fire baptized, the whole nine yards, I had the crazy notion to put this to the test. I took part in National Geographic's Genographic Project. I sent in a DNA sample from a cheek scraping and a few weeks later received the results. I did not, as I had hoped have a unique type DNA never before seen (though in truth, I knew I wouldn't) but did find out that my ancestors came up out of Africa around 40,000 years ago and that Bedoins and many Russians share a common ancestor with me. This was just another nail in the proverbial coffin of religion in my life.
That was a most interesting story you tell here about your DNA testing.
I wonder what "saved" has to say about this experience of yours.
(I bet nothing)
As well all know already, the only 'evidence' for the works of this god, is in the minds of the xtians.
Funny how god only reveals his "evidence" to such gullible minds and ignores everyone else.
ATF (Who wonders how god 'marks' his flock, so he can "sort them out later"?)
I am not sure everyone is going to pick out the correct god when they get to their haven... The 10 IQ group will be looking for their pop-sickle stick god, like the one they played with at home... the 50 IQ category will be hastily seeking out their beloved bobo god doll... and so on.
I think it's the IQ groups that are going to sort out the gods when they arrive :-) Funny how an infant can be mesmerized for hours with a plain set of car keys, and not give a hoot about a high-tech gadget, I suspect if IQ's are endearing qualities we take with us... there will be many believers who want the simple god ;-)
So you're saying that I should start selling souvenirs, such as the "god-on-a-stick" , as well as "find-god-in-your-car-keys", as soon as possible then?
On a more serious note.
I miss seeing your posts around-these-here-parts, Dave.
I've often wondered if you were off writing a best-selling book, on some small tropical island.
Heck, I'd stand in a long line to buy THAT book, and I don't-do-long-lines.
ATF (Who wonders what the LEGO-BLOCK god might look like?)
Yes, if we are going to keep our ghosts when we go to haven, why not do the Egyptian thing and make sure we are buried with a few sets of car keys, a few costumes, some LEGO-BLOCKs, Lincoln Logs, etc.
Writing is a passion of mine, and I have been working on a draft, but it will take a few years to complete... My job requires me to move every few years, and complete graduate level work (degree(s)) as well as professional development (certification(s)) course-work on a continuing basis. My next/last assignment, I'll teach/instruct... and then retire.
When I publish my book (novel), I'll send you a free copy - I'm not one for long lines either :-) While I have not had the time to post as much as I'd like, I do keep in touch by reading posts often. I enjoy the wit the regulars promote; even if it's only entertaining for those who are in the "know" ;-) Have a great one.
Dave8
I would be honored to read/have your future book, whenever it is completed !!
From the draft of the book you have so far written, has any of it been used in any posts you've done here over the years?
Thanks for reminding me about Lincoln Logs....I almost forgot about those.
I'm glad that you're still reading the website, even if you don't get to post very often.
Keep in touch Dave!!
ATF (Who's heard of "Walk like an Egyptian", but still wonders how a dead Egyptian might walk?)
The framework and backdrop are logically knit to house the creative writing; the words are not as important as the implied concepts, I have not data mined previous posts to get quotes, etc... Many great works are philosophic backdrops, with imaginative coloring.
I enjoy, and think it marvelous for many modern fantasy writers of our time to literally declare their writing to be "fantasy" and "fiction" at the beginning of their works... it literally, robs the modern day religious zealot from gaining their five minutes of unintelligent infamy.
The book "Twilight" declares on its copyright page "The characters and events portrayed in this book are fictitious, any similarity to real persons living, or dead is coincidental and not intended by the author."
In Rick Riordan's "adventures of Percy Jackson" series, http://www.rickriordan.com/ he literally declares his characters to be mythical, etc... He has the whole cast, Zeus the supreme god, Hades of the underworld, etc., He portrays Percy Jackson as a "Half-Blood" demi-god, dad was a god, mom was a mortal... one could say, perhaps he was similar to other characters of literature who are thought to be "half-n-half", skim-god, god-lite, etc. ;-) In the books, Percy has to go to camp "Half-Blood" to escape monsters, etc.
In Austin, TX... "camping" sessions are held, and the endeared name of the camp is "Camp Half-Blood"... Held five sessions over the summer months.
It's somewhat entertaining, or actually "pleasing", that he shares the locality with John Hagee, the rube who declared Harry Potter to be a work of utmost "evil", and has a hired security team for his church services. Rick was a public school teacher locally before entering his writing career, I'm sure he's much happier writing fiction than having to deal with fanatic Hagee parents while trying to teach the "fictional" genres to children.
Will definitely keep in touch!!!
Dave8
If you'd care to look at it from a different perspective(loosely assuming that's even possible) it could be helpful to you.
Here' goes....
By supporting this website, the Christian actually contributes to the fulfillment of biblical "Prophecy", aka, "God's Plan". Yes, it's true---(again)doubters/nonbelievers were foretold via "Divinely Prophetic" biblical verse, and thus, if said "Prophecy" does not come to fruition, then it will have been a failed "Prophecy". And well, frankly, that wouldn't look too good for "God", or his supposed "Word".
Once more----nonbelievers are necessary in the fulfillment of "God's Plan". I implore "saved", and any Christian onlookers, to donate at ASAP. C'mon......don't dawdle. Praise the Lord.
Stick around. WE are not mentally or intellectually superior. What you mistake for superiority is excitement and passion resulting from the joy and freedom of having escaped mental and spiritual death within the concentration camp which is the xian church and cult.
Hey, they let me stick around, so the IQ required for entry can't be too high.
Stick around and find out what we have found out. Some of these folk have had really interesting experiences and know all sorts of stuff, so ask questions and expect forthright answers.
I just recommend that you refrain from preaching. It is the ONLY offence that will get you shot, and the firing squad rarely shows any mercy.
Peace,
David
(Your friend in reason)
David--
Give yourself more credit--I certainly give you more.
Brent
I hope James sticks around and doesn't feel intimidated.
David
You may have a "need" to say it that way, but you blatantly contradict yourself, nonetheless. FYI, "dna" is a nucleic acid, which is physical in nature. So, y'll tryin' to make "spiritual", what is physical. Moreover, there is no evidence of a "spirit", except in terms of what it is not...i.e..non-physical, immaterial, etc. It is a concept that exists nowhere outside of your noggin.
If you have zero intention of entertaining anything that's being said to you, then shoo..! Beat it!
no further comment needed
I see i am ill suited to hang around with those who are obviously my mental superiors.
Riiiiiiiiight. In other words, you can not address the many salient and germane arguments we presented, so now -- like every other religious drone, who comes here -- bails and like a large flightless bird, plants his tiny head, into the sand.
Don't let the door hit you, in the arse, on the way out.
--S.
that was cute! ! ! ! yfiCjames
Not cute; it's an accurate observation.
If all you can do is vomit up unsubstantiated claims and not defend yourself and address our arguments specifically, then you are nothing but a mindless troll.
Your inability to address our arguments, specifically, speaks volumes.
--S.
Our most recent troll, who told us he was bailing, lingers on, like, the stench of a dead, rotting, corpse of a ground hog, under the porch.
Still offering up his jambalaya scrambled-brain logic, while, constantly diverging and refusing to address the arguments we made, specifically.
Just more of the same, insane, unsubstantiated drivel from the mind of a lunatic.
hope this helps!
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Here's the problem with this most recent Troll -- he is so deluded -- to the point of psychosis -- that he actually thinks he is helping. Holy shit! the only way you are "helping" is by reinforcing how incredibly ignorant and insane christians really are. Not only that, you are so self-centered, that you think you are the only christian who has ever offered up this regurgitated, delusional vomit.
All you have to offer is gross ignorance and silly superstition.
Off to your bunker of bibles and rose colored christian glasses, where you can wallow in your own massive delusion.
--S.
...C S Lewis, Lee Stroebel. Charles Finney etc etc.
Read those and Josh Mcdowell, Alister McGrath, and Norman Geisler. I found most of the arguments sophomoric and the rest were infantile (which -- no doubt -- is why they resonate with you) -- they left me hungry for more.
So I continued on, in my search for the "truth" and read John Shelby Spong, Bart D Ehrman, Dan Barker, the bible cover to cover, and my personal fav, the one that helped me put the nail in the coffin of delusion was, "Remedial Christianity: What Every Believer Should Know about the Faith, but Probably Doesn't", by Paul Allan Laughlin.
Again, you ignore our arguments and blow smoke up our arses -- this continues to SPEAK VOLUMES. If you could refute our, supposed, shallow arguments you would have done so, but you continue to ignore, like a child covering his ears, bleating, La,la,la,la,la,la,la,la,la,la,la,la,la,la,la,la...............
You got nothing but a delusion.
And I'm NOT down with your cuckoo, delusion.
If you continue to ignore and refuse to address our arguments, specifically, I will not continue with you. Either put up or shut up.
I fear for you.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. ROTFLMAO.
Just because you cower in fear -- like the little bitch you are -- scared of the made-up christian doctrine, doesn't mean we are down with the delusion.
You, pitiful, deluded, christian drone, I don't know what's more pathetic; an insecure, petty, god who will torture you, in the flames of hell for an eternity, just because you don't believe in him or the ignorant christian imbecile, who believes and condones god's actions.
Give it up douche-nozzle. I have no respect for you or your deluded god-concept.
Hit the bricks, troll.
--S.
And like the sweaty, preacher, in a cheap suit, with the vein budging from his forehead, the troll rants and raves like the delusional psychotic he is.............cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.
Now is the time in vich you go.
Move to ban troll.
--S.
Son", "Protector-of-My-Wife's-Chastity", "Molester-of-Cats", "Friend-In-Christ", "Brother-in-the-Lord", "Keeper-of-the-Hymen", etc.
I only mention this because when my husband and I were at Lowe's purchasing pvc pipes, I began to call him "High-Priest-of-the Home". Out loud. In public. Know what? People stared. I laughed. You should do the same. Present yourself at the next Debutante Ball as Friend-In-Christ: "Hello, I'm Friend-In-Christ." If you meet a woman at a bar, ask her to address you as "High-Priest -of -the-Home". Tell the checkout lady at Wal-Mart that you are "Spiritual Leader" as indicated on your driver's license. Count the stares. Come back and let us know how it went.
As to persistent illusions and Mr. Pibb....What you don't read is often as important as what you do read. If you are walking in the mountains and you don't read the sign that says "Beware of Cliff" because you are busy reading the bible instead, you may suddenly find yourself walking on air rather than on a sturdy bed of rocks. Now, Friend-in-Christ, go forth and knight thyself with a steady flow of Ding-Dongs. I'm done with you.
Ouija boards? The supernatural? Weeping Jesus statuettes??
Second verse, same as the first. The iterative loop:
What you don't read is often as important as what you do read. If you are walking in the mountains and you don't read the sign that says "Beware of Cliff" because you are busy reading the bible instead, you may suddenly find yourself walking on air rather than on a sturdy bed of rocks. Now, Friend-in-Christ, go forth and knight thyself with a steady flow of Ding-Dongs.
BB: Venerable Queen-of-Arkansas
You can not reason with the deluded religionist, because if you could, there would be no religion.
--S.
Lord in context is the One we know as Jesus the Christ. 2nd we are justified by faith Romans5:1 This is a judicial act which means it ( the act of justification) comes from a Judge (in this case God is the Judge) 3rd because I am justified I am in Christ Romans8:1 4th because i have had the privelege to live long enough to study on my own by reading intensely the Books of the Bible (pertinent here the books of John, Romans, Galatians, Thessalonians) and asking the Father for clarification of my reading I have come to some conclusions for myself. If my conclusions concur with others, so what? Confession When i somehow ventured on this site, it seemed that the guy who made it might just need to meet someone who by his criteria was a true Christian. you have access to all that data. I paid for my mistake and yea I feel quite the buffoon for not realizing it was a trap to try to get someone to support something they would not otherwise support. However, the term ex Christian caught my eye because once a person trusts in Christ the judicial thing happens. you are now a member of the family of God in Christ. Now, if life has dealt you a blow which has caused your faith to crumble. Hmmmm. usually this happens when some "trusted" person rapes the percieved standards of "Christianity" and/or they are confronted with secular reasoning which cannot deal with the issue of faith. I almost lost my faith. you just gotta know that believing anything does not make it so. I live by my faith "The just shall live by faith" The Bible says so and I live so. If I am wrong in my faith those who have lost theirs and those who never had it can coalesce and glad rap each other about how they tear some deluded guy up. Oh well. So revel. So gloat but if you are a Christian I am sorry for you because one of the worst things in life is to lose your faith. I lost my faith in the world and the things of the world. My faith is now IN Christ, in the Bible as I read and understand It. I will pray for you and in fact this comes to you with a fervent prayer already at the Throne room of God, that you will develop a relationship with Christ not with some organization or relationship with God thru some guru who has "God speak" like you alluded. That the one who goes around seeking whose faith he may devour will be denied you. May Yahweh bless your quest. your friend in Christ james
You are still REPEATEDLY missing the point. We have all at one stage in our lives been christians. ie. we did have that relationship with jesus. Yes my relationship was very real, full on, charismatic etc. It is possible to just open your eyes one day and realise that it's just all delusional. You can make your brain think whatever you want it to think. All you have in your arguments is faith, based on Your experiences, which by the way I used to have. Now I have the title of EX-christian. I no longer choose to live my life in wishwashy ideals, persuaded by emotions. I live my life now in the rational, and it is sooo much more less complicated. I feel like a normal human being again. You are being condescending and patronising assuming we never had a true relationship with jesus or we never would of walked away. I resent that. You also make the assumption that people would leave xtianity because of their life circumstances, or being angry at god or the church. If you took the time to read the hundreds of testimonials on here I think you will find the opposite. Many people use their brains, research all the questions they have and find the answers. Guess what? None of it added up, especially the bible, supposedly the inerrant word of god. I left for purely logical and rational reasons. It is a concept you are just not understanding, because you do not possess those skills.You gave it all away when you steeped yourself in your supposed faith.
Now , if you do not have faith that God exist or if you believe He does exist but could care less. the no more ? if you do wrong things when you even want to do right things and you have fatih that God exists and that He is Holy then this is a perplexing question and becaus I have faith that God loves me this answer humbles me. I have not missed anything. you have missed to date the opportunity to hold fast to that which is GOOD. hope this helps yficjames
I suppose we should be gracious and just overlook it because they probably don't mean to offend and are so deep into the cult that they don't even realize they're doing it. But, damn, it's annoying!
Go away TROLL.
First you tell us that if we have put our faith in Christ at some time that we have God's DNA in us. Then you tell us that we are confusing physical things for spiritual. You can't have it both ways. You made the assertion that faith in Christ = God's DNA. Are you unaware of the nature of DNA as a physical substance? I know it's small, but seriously. You can't change the rules in the middle of the game dude. I tested your theory with unsurprising results via a reputable DNA testing facility, because I did put my faith in Christ for twenty years, and as you say I should have had God's DNA. Instead I have the DNA that belongs what is referred to as Haplogroup J. Apparently, it has "a very wide distribution, and is present as far east as the Indus Valley bordering Indian and Pakistan, and as far south as the Arabian Peninsula. It is also common in eastern and northern Europe."
I trusted in Christ and all I got was this lousy DNA Halplogroup J that PROVES my ancestors left East Africa 40,000 years ago.
And as for your argument (trying...poorly I might add) that "God is a spirit and those who worship him, worship in spirit and in truth", you misquoted dude...it says "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
First of all, you aren't going to get many people that fall into the "they that worship him" category here. Secondly, let's assume for a minute that the gospel of John is more than just a story written by some man 120 years after the death of Jesus (providing he existed at all). Let's break down the verse:
Spirit and spirit: Strongs 4151: pneuma, wind, breath
Worship and worship: Strongs 4352: proskyneo, pay homage, show reverence, to kneel down
Truth:Strongs 225:aletheia, truth, truthfulness; corresponding to reality
So that gives us: God is a [breath, wind] and they that [pay homage, show reverence, kneel down] him, MUST (my emphasis) [pay homage, show reverence, kneel down] in [wind, breath] and in [truth, truthfulness; corresponding to reality]
Merriam Webster's Dictionary defines reality as: the quality or state of being real, something that is, in actual fact.
So if you must worship in corresponding to reality, wouldn't it first be advantageous to make sure that which you are worshipping is "in actual fact, the quality or state of being real"? And just to make sure we are on the same page, Merriam Webster's Dictionary defines fact as: the quality of being actual, <the question of fact hinges on evidence>something that has actual existence, an actual occurance; a piece of information presented as having objective reality.
Again, I say, where is the objective reality? Where is the evidence? Objective evidence. You don't have any. Therefore, I propose that is impossible to worship in spirit and in truth. But that's just me.
Furthermore, back to DNA, Solomon's Biology 4th Edition defines DNA as "double stranded nucleic acid; contains genetic information coded in specific sequences of its constituent nucleotides"...objective evidence. Mine says my ancestor's came up out of East Africa 40K years ago. There is no objective evidence that says I have any magical Jesus DNA because I used to trust him. It's simply not there.
After reading all you've written thus far, there can be only one conclusion...
You are one very sick banana !!
ATF (Who hopes this troll isn't roaming the streets)
'Saved',
You should consider yourself lucky that you've got to post as much xtian trash as you have to this blog, considering the purpose of this blog is for healing EX-christians of your sick god fantasy.
In a nutshell, you have NO RIGHTS here, NONE.
>> well, I call for those of you who will give themselves a fresh chance.
We all got our 'fresh chance' and are overjoyed that your overbearing god is out of our lives.
Deal with it !!
>> try this if you say that the faith you once had in Christ was rubbish are you saying that you only made an emotional decision and now you have come to your senses ? which emotion was that?
That would be the emotion of false HOPE.
Hope that there was some god to protect us, to heal us when we're sick, and to save us and our loved one's from dying.
Then there was FEAR.
Fear that your imaginary god would toss us in some hell fire, to burn forever.
Well, once you realize that god is a figment of one's imagination, then hell is realized to be also imaginary and those horrid fears of hell subside in time.
As far as HOPE goes.
A false hope, such as you live with, may sooth your weak spirit, but for most of us here, we would rather face reality head-on.
You live with false hopes, cower in fear of your god, because you're still an immature child.
>> So now you are using COLD HARD REASON, with out emotion.
I think you're a bit confused.
We don't live without emotions at all.
However, we use reason and our intellect FIRST to guide us, then emotions afterwards, not the reverse as you do.
>> (he calls for a ban, support from those who visit this site, becaus his reason was clobbered)
You didn't clobber Sconnor's reasoning one iota.
He's just sick of having to listen to you vomit up more xtian trash. Trash we've heard time and time again I might add.
>> or did you tell the truth that they were just mistakes from the cosmos and accidently dumped into your training ground.
Why is something that happens by chance alone, a "mistake"?
What a pity that your entire self-worth is based on your belief that some god personally created you.
>> So back to cold hard reason. The Bible IS and always will BE. any refutation here?
The bible is WHAT?
It's a book (of sorts), but basically nothing more than a huge collection of fairy tales and/or legends.
So much is wrong with the contents of your precious book, and yet you see it as perfect and holy.
No wonder Sconnor thinks you're crazy.
>> the calendar you use turns on Jesus's birth! indignate?
Please don't tell me you really think this BC/AD designation is proof of your jesus?
Perhaps you need to study how BC/AD came about huh?
>>the world shakes and moves because of differences of opinion about religion (you all have one too as your faith is in your ability to reason)
Which is why, in my opinion, the monotheistic religions of this world, NEED TO DIE SOON.
>>The war we are involved in now is full of it(religion) and it is influencing your life whether you like it or not.,When the radicals come to your house you will convert or you will die for it. REASON? what is your rational answer here? reason with a radical? That is like me trying to talk to you. sound familiar?
Yes I agree up to a point with you.
It's obvious that one can't reason with religious nuts like yourself.
However, eventually the fundies die-off and with some good planning in the education of our young, you xtians will in time vanish or be such a minority that you as a group, won't matter anymore.
We can only hope the same will happen to the young of other religions as well.
Funny how educating young minds about reality, can rid their minds of silly superstitions, like say the one I call "christianity".
ATF (Who sees your mind as a prisoner of a horrid god fantasy)
The God of the BIBLE PROMISED a son of King David would rule and reign his people from mount Tzion. is it conner that likes repetition? repeat again and again The Jews are here to stay no matter who gets in the way. bring out your guru, Laughlin let him guide you into reason for these facts presented. then watch the tv as history is made in the fulfillment of the PROMISE as far as getting to post on this site what's up with that? thought y'll liked facts? doesn't good reasoning demand facts for good conclusions? reason away the FACT of the existance of the Jews. Then constantly readjust your reasoning as history unfolds before your eyes. They do not play games in the mid-east, and it is going to influence your life mr. ATF! praying that you all do not BREAK my faith and destroy my self respect by the adjectives you heap upon me. yet i remain and will continue as your friend in Christ!
First you assume the bible is factual and the Jews are "god's special people", yes?
Funny how the god of the Jews doesn't seem to protect "his own" very well, isn't it?
Of course, you'll just make some lame excuses as to why the "god of the Jews" lets them suffer, be tortured brutally at times, and of course killed in droves at times to.
e.g. Think of Auschwitz as one example of this
So you think just because the Jews have seen much persecution through the ages, that they then managed to survive as a race anyway, that god is continually 'backing them', yes?
Your god has a very funny way of offering his protection to his beloved creation !!
I think some other races of humans must also be just as special to god as the Jews are, because they to have experienced Ethnic Cleansings at times to, yet most of them still survive to this day, just as the Jews do.
Funny how you bible thumpers can twist the reality of what we call "human nature", to fit some special piece of your god-puzzle.
Here's a small list of other races that have been persecuted, and thus, are surely just as 'special' to god as the Jews you claim are to gawd.
From Wikipedia....
Ethnic cleansings:
ATF ( Who thinks all races are equally special, and no race deserves special favors from any god )
So, God goes to all the trouble to preserve the Jewish people, as a group, at all costs - but, when they die, they go to hell?
As to the rest of your fanatical blatherings, I would ask you this: Why do you believe the religious rhetoric you've been posting? What evidence convinced you that the improbable and fantastic stories in your religious book are true? What process did you use to come to the conclusion that there is a GOD who will condemn millions to everlasting, horrific torment for the "thought crime" of skepticism?
There are well over 10,000 different gods and religions which people have subscribed to over the several thousand years since humans began to record history. Today there are millions who subscribe to religions different from yours. I would lay odds that you reject out-of-hand all the other gods and religions on the planet. How did you come to the conclusion that all those millions of people are deceived, while you are enlightened?
Your religious book condemns all who disbelieve your religion, yet other religious books condemn you and your religion! How can you be so certain of your position?
Such zeal is commendable when it is founded on testable evidence. If your "beliefs" are founded on less than verifiable evidence, you are no more enlightened than any other religious fanatic.
I would posit that you and I are not all that different. You disbelieve in all the other gods every worshiped, and probably consider those gods as silly. I also disbelieve in all those other gods. I merely disbelieve in one additional god -- yours. Gods exist nowhere outside the imaginations of human beings. Your god is no different.
Goodbye.
to be obediant and I hate that I cast a bad light on my Savior and His beautiful word. again thanks for the lesson! yfiCjames
So tell me if I'm following this correctly.
The ancient Jews claimed a belief in what we now call, the OT god "Yahweh".
Do we agree so far?
These very same Jews then wrote down many stories/accounts of dealings with this god Yahweh.
Agreed?
All the OT stories are centered around these same Jews and only include non-Jews in these stories by happenstance.
Agreed?
Other ancient non-jewish cultures basically ignored the god of the jews, as they had their own gods they had made up.
Agreed?
No other ancient culture ever offered us any historical proof that this Yahweh was a real bonified 'god'.
e.g. Certaintly, the Egyptians have no recorded history that would signify Yahweh was a real god (Not to mention the Egyptians have no history of the Jews exodus from captivity).
So what are we left with here.
We have a culture (Jews) that believed in a god, that they themselves created.
That they then wrote down many things about this god and it's dealing with the Jews.
The Jews then claim that they are very special to this one and only god, but only the Jews know about Yahweh's existence, or claim this god to be of reality.
This is at best, very circular, and not proof of any god being real.
It would be like my insisting that space-men take a few select humans for weekly rides through the galaxy, myself included of course.
I and my cohorts then document these fictional treks across the galaxy and form a 'religion' around what we've learned from these alien beings.
No other groups or cultures, have ever seen these alien friends of ours, but we keep insisting they are real and very powerful creatures.
We then create some dogma about how to worship these beings, but they are never worshipped face-to-face, but always in a blind manner.
We never show anyone outside our special group, any spaceships or alien beings, but we insist they are as real as apple-pie.
Along comes YOU now.
I tell you to buy a copy of our latest alien visitation book, via mail order from a special website.
This book will explain everything to you and all these aliens require from you is FAITH of their existence.
If you have enough FAITH, one day the alien assigned to you, will come to take you for that special galaxy trek.
Do you see anything circular in my alien argument here?
Your bible god is exactly the same problem for those of us who lack your FAITH in this god.
We see no evidence for this god of yours, other than the proclaimed emotions you believers swear are caused by contact with your invisible unprovable god.
Saying that Israel has a covenant with their secret god, means no more to an outsider, than my claim of having a covenant with my alien spaceship pals would mean to you.
Unless you have proof of your god, then I suggest you crawl back into your god-hole, from whence you came.
We have no interest in worshipping anything, let alone a 'thing' that can't be proven by you or anyone like you.
BYE BYE
ATF (Who notices that no explanation was provided for why god let's his Jews suffer and die so)
First, I suggest you read this article about your precious "Temple" and the Antichrist myth.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7342233/Antichrist-Myth
Thirty years ago, I was once as sure as you are today about this 'prophetic' Temple.
Of course, it was all BS then, and still is today.
Did it ever dawn on you that if a temple were to actually be built on Mount Moriah in modern times, it would most likely be built, just because the end-time dreamers like you will make sure it will be. There is nothing mysterious about **FORCING** a prophecy to come true.
Even if your bible is the word of some god, your twisted interpretation of it to support your 'end times' belief, is still dead nuts wrong.
BTW, what country are you in, because your English is kind of strange.
ATF (Who wonders why a GOD needs a temple, and a throne to SIT upon?)
Well, since there's no evidence for "spiritual", we have a rather simple choice: Interpret something in terms of the physical universe, or toss it aside as an unprovable hypothesis.
"webmdave when you asked for the money ,you did not say it was for the purpose of supporting this website. I read your purpose statement and read your request for money. i occasionally give money to obvious winos on the street but they are not misrepresenting themselves..."
How. Dare. You!
Read the original post again. Pay special attention to the part about Matthew 5:39-44. There is no misrepresentation.
Just wondering, if you are a "friend" IN Christ... is there some Freudian phenomenon going on here? Just how are you "IN" Christ? When passages in the bible suggest one is “IN” another, it's typically a sexual narrative, more colloquially known as “smut”.
Judges 16:1 - "Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her."
The Book of Judges gives us an example of Samson (a hero of faith) going "IN" to a prostitute, e.g. Samson's copulation with a prostitute.
I don't want to infer from your writing that you copulate with the character Christ Jesus... but, if you and your imaginary friend are consenting adults, then... to each their own. Just one question though, if your name is James, perhaps both Saved and Just, one may further infer that you imagine your character to be the brother of Christ Jesus, and well... that means incest, if you promote your self going "IN" to Christ Jesus, right?
Well, don't want to over-stir the pot, you seem to have covered the pot angle... remember, puff, puff, paaaaassssss... it appears "pass" isn't in your nature. There is a silver lining though James… if you "come" IN Christ Jesus; you don’t have to worry about child “rearing” :-)
Saved: “…not because we are compatible at any point."
...states James, as he looks into his magic e-harmony Crystal Ball ;-)
Obejective evidence as defined by Merriam Webster's dictionary:
Objective: : involving or deriving from sense perception or experience with actual objects, conditions, or phenomena
Evidence: something that furnishes proof
Now cough up the evidence, and furthermore cough up the ten bucks jackass. Otherwise, you are offending your god, and as long as you refuse to meet his demand, you will be in sin.
If he was roaming the steets, they would put him in a staight jacket and haul him off to the funny farm!
Sconner is right, there is no reasoning with an unreasonable and deluded brain. In many fundamentalist churches, stupidity is looked upon as being highly spiritual. Phrases such as: I am a fool for Christ & The more Un-believable, the more I believe it! And, If it doesn't require Faith, it's not REAL!.....etc., etc. I kid you not. If you spent one hour with my mother, you would pull your hair out and run out screaming (I've done that numerous times since my blessed de-conversion).
Hopefully 'Saved' has scampered off to another site where he can pretend to be enlightened. If he comes back, ignore him. He's not even intelligent enough to be fun!
XPD (your friend in Crisco)
Well if 'saved' would at least come back with the minimum usual half-baked counter-arguments we often get, he would at least be equal to the typical trolls we see, but he doesn't even attempt to try and win any points for his god-side.
He's more like a person that says "Thank you very much" to you, after you just punched him in the nose.
Perhaps his "skilled" debating methods with us are the equivalent of what jesus really meant by, "Turn the other cheek" ?
On another note:
I'm not sure XPD, that I could sit with your xtian Mother, as you described her, as I already have all to do staying sane, with being around my own fundie type family members.
ATF (Who wonders if a fundie can make a "Mountain out of Crisco", or perhaps, at least "move a mountain" using Crisco?)
"saved" is definitely at TROLL STATUS.
Buh'bye, TROLL.
--S.
On the contrary. If that 'faith' is based on an ugly and ancient mythology, to lose such a thing is to embrace reality. And to fully embrace reality, without illusion or presupposition or emotional bias, is a very good thing indeed.
We know what you mean, when you talk about Faith. We know it 'experiencially'. We have lived it. I lived it for over 40 years of my life.
I was where you are. I was Saved. I walked in Faith. I was filled with the Spirit. I wrote many gospel songs. The one that sums up my life the best, I entitled, "For Me to Live is Christ".
You sound very young, so I'll cut you some slack, but please stop with your condescending & naive cliches. Your mindless 'God-Speak' must STOP!
Yours in Muhammad,
XpastorDan (see how silly it sounds when you don't believe in a particular Deity)
So, a person can become a "porn borne" Christian, just one little "Ohhhhhh God" and poof; I suppose you have a series of Christian Baptisms on DVD, rented/bought from your local adult mega-plex store? Do you tend to purchase the DVDs that portray more than two actors engaged at a time, or do you tend to stay with the missionary sets?
Before you reply, please take on board some information. We have all been there, done that, worn the t-shirt, said the prayer(s), written the songs, led the worship, preached the sermon, led the sinner to christ. etc., etc.
"Cease and desist" - we had heard the message and lived it. We found it lacking in substance, despite its original promise and are waiting upon you and your god to make good the various promises made: in your case, the production of evidence and in god's the healing of the sick, the results of asking in his name, etc.,etc (in other words, evidence).
We understand exactly what you are saying, having both believed and preached it. It is you who has problems understanding what we are saying, partly, it must be said, from a wilful and deliberate policy of ignoring our questions to you and form the use of repetition of concepts which you must surely realise by now that we cannot accept. You are making the extraordinary claims, produce some extraordinary evidence or, at least, some extraordinary argument.
btw, your abuse of Sconnor and his capacity and reasons for procreation were out of order. NO MATTER HOW PROVOKED AND JUSTIFIED YOU BELIEVED YOURSELF TO BE!!
Methinks your other cheek needs some exercise - remember for whom you are an ambassador.
Whereas all other primates, and many other mammals control the abilities and opportunities to breed, based upon position in a pecking order, humans are the only species which has allowed a priestly caste to assert and exercise this control over us. Otherwise, we all produce offspring for the propagation of our genes and species, in the fervent hope and optimism that we and our offspring can contribute to making the world a better place by our efforts; and that includes working to reduce and neutralise the toxic effects of organized religion upon the human condition.
Peace,
David
Your reply to Sconnor was completely obnoxious. I'm just sayin'. I particularly take issue with the following statement:
"so have a go at that you great mind benders and grab your arse and hang on if you can."
I work out so my "arse" can fit nicely into a size 2 because I believe that a well-toned arse keeps the Devil in check. Your bible promotes flab, varicose veins, cellulite and a wide-stance arse: "For bodily exercise profiteth little." – 1 Timothy 4.8. Only church ladies can hold on to their "arses" as they are cushioned for "birthin' them babies" and "the Rapture." Massive girth and rolling flab....the xian's obvious loathing of the flesh; a profound disconnect between the functioning of the world and the systems of the flesh....a savage detachment from our bodies.
"Yahshua aka Jesus the Christ is the One to whom we should bow down and give honor and obesiance."
How can you give OBEISANCE (A gesture or movement of the body, such as a curtsy, that expresses deference or homage) if you have an overweight arse? The very thought is repulsive. Does Yahshua or Yew-weh or Ewe-weh like a little junk in his trunk? Shudder. Never mind. Obeisance and obesity.
"It is easy to use reason until it bites back ..."
Now that is silly. Reason does not bite. My ex-boyfriend was studying herpetology (no, not a sexually transmitted disease but rather the study of the role of amphibians and reptiles in global ecology) and introduced me to the Arkansas Chewer. Unlike Reason, the Arkansas Chewer is a snake that must have something in its mouth at all times, otherwise it begins to eat its own mouth. Fear the Arkansas Chewer, not Reason.
Now I am laughing hard...sorry...
Bride-Of-Christ,
BB
Pot, meet kettle.
"The Bible IS and always will BE. any refutation here?"
Yes.
The Bible simply did not exist 4,000 years ago. Not even the book of Genesis.
Several thousand years from now, if humanity still endures, the Bible will fall solidly in the 'ancient mythology' category.
I doubt very much that there will be any Christians 10,000 years from now. You, yourself, will cease to be one at the moment of your death... If not sooner. Now get lost.
Motion to ban the troll, seconded.
*Ahem* To the best of My knowledge, there are more Scandinavians than Jews on this planet at this moment. And we're consistently near the top of the "quality of life" scale.
Anyone care to join Me in a toast to the Æsir and Vanir (and to Their mortal heirs' great achievement, well-maintained and generally tolerant secular societies)?
Skál!
That is not a mystical prediction of the future. If it does happen, it is a self-fulfilling prophesy, fulfilled by the conscious actions of humans and having nothing whatsoever to do with gods or any other supernatural woo-woo.
"Get with on the stick time is short..."
Logical fallacy: Argumentum ad baculum.
"you want me to become confused, get faith busted, come to my senses and revel in my newfound individuality."
Speaking for Myself only, yes. This is exactly what I want to happen, James. Because a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
god, you're a dick.
Anyway, I just want to apologize that others in the same "religion" as me seem to think that its completely ok to shove their beliefs down your throat, but for you to put out your own valid arguments is completely unacceptable.
Personally, I do believe that there is a God and a Jesus, but they existed WAY before the bible was even conceived of. My faith is not in a book written by mortal men. To do so would be completely absurd. If you examine all the current translations (NIV, the Message, NKJ, etc) there are corruptions within the scriptures all throughout the bible, so to naively think that the bible is inerrent and free from corruption from its original language to now is ridiculous! Plus, the bible is simply the personal account of men and women in their intimate walk with God. For me to look at that and think I have to duplicate my own faith exactly is not right. Its like observing a marriage relationship and trying to replicate it in my own. I have my own baggage and life issues independent from these people so it would be doomed to fail if I did that. My faith is my own and last time I checked my God was all about the freedom to choose whether to believe or not. My husband, who is brilliant, poses many many valid arguments that I think traditional, fundamental Christians would struggle to answer without just diverting to some random scripture that comes to mind. For me, its not a big deal because my faith doesn't rest in these irrelevant issues.
So, that being said, I truly am sorry for the narrow-minded and completely hypocritical responses that you have been receiving. I will agree that by the original post, I honestly can't call myself a Christian because honestly, I suck at following all the commandments... so I'm just a believer, and the last time I checked that was all I needed to be.
Guys, I see here that you have even more fun for today.
But...Why do they make it so easy for us?
ATF
Well, you do realize, don't you, that your concept of this Jesus character came entirely from that musty old book, the thousands of other conflicting books that apologists have written over the century to attempt to explain it, and the words of other mortal men based on whatever they have been taught the bible means. That's it.
Without the bible, there is no Jesus. There is not an extant word written about him during the time he supposedly lived (which seems awfully odd for such a powerful, miracle-working deity). Keep reading and researching how the Jesus myth was invented, and maybe you'll catch up with your husband.
There was something else I found odd about your post, coming from someone who claims not to be enthralled by fundamentalist dogma. You said, "so I'm just a believer, and the last time I checked that was all I needed to be."
Why do you need to be a believer? What do you imagine would happen to you if you weren't?
If you're an adult, then you should know that it is meaningless for adults to apologize on the behalf of adults.
Marie: Personally, I do believe that there is a God and a Jesus, but they existed WAY before the bible was even conceived of
No Christian I've encountered has suggested otherwise, thus, you've made an irrelevent distinction. Bottom line; had you not been exposed to the contents of the bible - or at least to other people who'd been exposed to the bible - you would not know a single thing about this "Jesus" character.
Marie: My faith is not in a book written by mortal men.
Again, if it wasn't for the "book written by mortal men", you would have no frame of reference with which to know what it is you are putting your "faith" in. If it wasn't for that "book", how would you *know* the Christian essentials, such as, "Salvation"; Died on the Cross"; "Sin"; "Father, Son, ghost", and on and on? Those Xians concepts don't exist outside "the book written by mortal men".
Marie: My faith is my own and last time I checked my God was all about the freedom to choose whether to believe or not.
I would have to wonder where it is you are you doing your "checking", since you admonish folks to not put stock in "a book written by mortal men"? How do you know what is required, or not? Does "God" tell you, Himself? Telepathy? Email? Smoke signals? How?
Marie: I honestly can't call myself a Christian because honestly, I suck at following all the commandments... so I'm just a believer, and the last time I checked that was all I needed to be.
Wow. You're evidentally soooo liberal, that you're not even a "Christian" anymore! Now that's liberal, I'd say!
Without the bible there is not footing for the modern day church to stand as far as imprisoning people with dogmas, creeds and religions.
For me, all I need is to be a believer. I didn't insult you with remarks such as "catching up with your husband" so I would hope you would extend the same respect and courtesy.
I'm not proclaiming to be a cocksure arrogant ass who KNOWS 100%, because anyone who claims to KNOW 100% in either direction is a complete fool who has decided to be close-minded to science, logic, and life experiences.
All I did was share what I believe. I never called you a fool, or used the bible to bash you, so perhaps you should consider some counseling for all the unresolved bitterness and hatred you have toward whoever warped you with an incorrect version of religion. Don't project it onto me.
This is marvelous news....'more power to ya. Although, you must know that "peace of mind" is not unique to proponents of the Christian philosophy, nor is it a precursor to knowing "truth". Right?
Continues....I wouldn't expect you to understand because like I said its my own faith.
To the contrary, I do understand. I spent 2/3rds of my life believing for the same reason(s) you believe. I decided that, for me, intellectual honesty takes precedence over "faith", regardless of the subsequent emotions.
Continues....I respect your decision enough not to stoop to a level to try and force you to perceive what my own eyes and experiences perceive.
Thanks. Anything else, then?
Apparently so...
Continues.....Besides other historical documents have quite accurately proven the existence of a man named Jesus.
Would that by chance happen to be documents "written by mortal men"?.... when in fact, wasn't your previous implication that such things are unreliable?
Notwithstanding, accepting the historical existence of someone does not necessitate accepting the outlandish, embroidered claims of "Divinity".
Marie: Other brilliant minds such as Einstein and Ghandi can even agree that the man Jesus existed.
A man named Jesus existed. And this should this be important to me because....?
Marie: Perhaps you should keep researching my friend.
Perhaps. Shall I limit my research to Christian literature, Christian historians, and Christian scholars?
Marie: Without the bible there is not footing for the modern day church to stand as far as imprisoning people with dogmas, creeds and religions.
Without religion there is no footing for divisiveness, bigotry, elitism, and wilfull ignorance.
Marie: For me, all I need is to be a believer.
I believe someone inquired as to why it is you "need" to be a "believer". I can only wonder what you believe the ramifications are for not being a "believer".
Continues....I'm not proclaiming to be a cocksure arrogant ass...
Good, because as you alluded to, we get enough of those types of guests here; we don't need more.
Continues....because anyone who claims to KNOW 100% in either direction is a complete fool who has decided to be close-minded to science, logic, and life experiences
Speaking of percentages----what percentage would you attach to your knowledge of a square circle's nonexistence? Whatever that percentage is, it is roughly the same percentage I attach to my knowledge of the Christian biblegod's nonexistence.
Continues.....All I did was share what I believe.
Yes, complete with the implication that we've got the wrong information. It never fails.
Continues.....perhaps you should consider some counseling for all the unresolved bitterness and hatred you have toward whoever warped you with an incorrect version of religion. Don't project it onto me.
Actually, they have counseling for just that, just as they do for anyone who escapes a cult. Part of my "therapy" is to vent, and for me, venting might include shredding my former religion to infinity. If you choose to post here and in the process end up being colateral damage?....that's not my problem.
Other brilliant minds such as Einstein and Ghandi can even agree that the man Jesus existed. Perhaps you should keep researching my friend.
OK, I'll tackle the Einstein fallacy.
Your argument is flawed; you posit: Because Einstein is smart and said the historical Jesus exists -- then naturally this must be so.
OK, let's go with that. Einstein being a super-genius, also, said:
Einstein -- "It is quite possible that we can do greater things than Jesus, for what is written in the Bible about him is poetically embellished"
This is how Einstein replied to a catholic student who wanted Einstein to convert, by begging him to pray to Christ, the Virgin Mary, and to see a Catholic priest immediately:
Einstein -- "If I would follow your advice and Jesus could perceive it, he, as a Jewish teacher, surely would not approve of such behavior."
Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshiped a Judeo-Christian god:
Einstein -- "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.
He also said:
Einstein -- "For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions,"
And finally, this really, smart, guy said:
Einstein -- "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty CHILDISH."
Albert Einstein was not a christian, nor did he believe in the god of the bible or a supernatural personal god and he definitely would not accept jesus as his lord and savior.
Now, because he is soooooo smart, will you consider these views as truth?
--S.
Besides other historical documents have quite accurately proven the existence of a man named Jesus.
BULLSH*T
I have studied Josephus. I read all five of his books -- very interesting reads; I recommend them. If you studied him, then I'm sure you know that Eusebius added some of the text about Jesus in around the fourth century. Josephus was what you might call a hardcore Jew and would never have written those lines. Under more examination of the texts you can see these as blatant forgeries. Did you ever wonder why Christians never mentioned Josephus before Eusebius got a hold of the books? It's because the writing about Jesus were forgeries.
The majority of scholars say the Testimonium Flavianum is a forgery as none of the earliest christian apologists referred to it -- they didn't refer to it because it was never there. It wasn't until sometime after the 300's when Eusebius got a hold of it adding the TF when other theologians started to refer to it.
Here's a reference from truthbeknown.com
The Culprit: Eusebius (c. 264-340)
In addition to acknowledging the spuriousness of the Josephus passage, many authorities quoted here agreed with the obvious: Church historian Eusebius was the forger of the entire Testimonium Flavianium. Various reasons have already been given for making such a conclusion. In "Did Jesus Really Live?" Marshall Gauvin remarks:
"Everything demonstrates the spurious character of the passage. It is written in the style of Eusebius, and not in the style of Josephus. Josephus was a voluminous writer. He wrote extensively about men of minor importance. The brevity of this reference to Christ is, therefore, a strong argument for its falsity. This passage interrupts the narrative. It has nothing to do with what precedes or what follows it; and its position clearly shows that the text of the historian has been separated by a later hand to give it room."
Regarding the absence of the TF in the writings of earlier Christian fathers and its sudden appearance with Eusebius, CMU says:
"it has been observed that the famous passage which we find in Josephus, about Jesus Christ, was never mentioned or alluded to in any way whatever by any of the fathers of the first, second, or third centuries; nor until the time of Eusebius, 'when it was first quoted by himself [sic].' The truth is, none of these fathers could quote or allude to a passage which did not exist in their times; but was to all points short of absolutely certain, forged and interpolated by Eusebius, as suggested by Gibbon and others. Even the redoubtable Lardner has pronounced this passage to be a forgery." (CMU, 79-80)
Forgeries aside, whatever else Josephus may have written about Jesus was hearsay, based on the stories that Christians told.
All the other historians you could mention -- Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the younger -- wrote, well after the fact. Josephus was the earliest born, about seven to ten years after Jesus died and wrote his books 40-50 years later, the rest were born in the 50's, 60's, and 70's AD and all their writings were done well over a hundred years after Jesus' death. What this means is, the historians you could site were around when other Christians talked about the stories of Christ. They were not around when Jesus was alive. They do not in any way confirm the Biblical accounts or the historicity of Jesus.
Additionally we have these lesser used historians, such as, Mara Bar-Serapion 73AD, Ignatius 50AD - 98AD., Polycarp 69AD - 155AD, Clement of Rome 160AD Tertullian 160AD - ?AD, Clement of Alexandria 215AD, Origen 185AD - 232AD, Hippolytus 236AD, and Cyprian 254AD. All these people, too, lived well after the death of Jesus. Not one of them provides an eyewitness account, and were all based on hearsay.
Now, what's even more devastating is, there are zero writings from historians from Jesus' time. Not a single scribe, historian or philosopher who lived during the time of Jesus wrote about what surely would have been a monumental piece of history. The historians Seneca 4BC. - 65AD and Pliny the Elder 23? - 79AD never mention Jesus.
Philo Judaeus 20BC - 50AD, lived during the supposed, life of Jesus, and was a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher and historian, who wrote volumes, on the lives of Jews in and around the surrounding area and nothing is mentioned about Jesus the Christ. Hmmmmmmmmm?
I suspect you parrot these so-called evidences from either one of Josh McDowell's books or from one of a hundred christian apologist websites, without doing any real investigation of your own.
Another document you may site is the Sanhedrin 43a. The Talmud was told orally and wasn't written down until 200 years after the crucifixion of Christ.
Here's the full text:
"It is taught: On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him." But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover.
Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and G-d said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him."
Yeshu was different because he was close to the government."
Yeshua is a common name from that time period. The main point is "of Nazareth" wasn't added until 1342AD to the Munich Manuscript of the Talmud and the sentence, "Yeshu was hanged on the eve of the Passover" was added in 1177AD to the Florence Manuscript of the Talmud. Which brings me to my next point. When was Jesus hung, or crucified depending on your definition? was he killed on the Passover or on the eve of the Passover or after Passover? I would venture to say most Christians say he was executed on Passover but in my studies it would seem the gospels contradict each other. Was he crucified on the eve of Passover like in John 19:14-16,
"And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified."
or was he crucified the day after like in Mark 14:12,
"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?"
And Mark 15:25,
"And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."
Anyway, contradictions aside, the Gospels didn't say Jesus was stoned nor did they ever divulge Jesus as being close to the government. The Talmud most certainly can not be used as evidence for the life of Jesus the Christ.
How am I to believe in a man, Jesus, historically existing, claiming to be the son of God, let alone, bridge a colossal chasm and believe he magically raised people from the dead, walked on water or was sacrificed like a sin-goat, to magically atone, for sins?
Every last bit of critical thinking and reason has to be obliterated to believe these things happened -- which you call faith and I call ignorant and foolish.
From my perspective this all looks very peculiar and is all based on superstitious nonsense. So far you have given me zero evidence for the man, Jesus existing -- how am I to believe in the preposterous notion, he is metaphysical road to salvation?
ANSWER ME THIS:
How do you know jesus is the metaphysical son of god as opposed to embellished writings written over time, nothing but a legend based on perhaps a real prophet or an amalgamation of several people and several earlier legends and myths?
--S.
Just as today we have many men using the name "Al" or "Vinny", there were many men using the name "jesus" during the time your special jesus was said to have lived.
So, if there were many men using that name in those times, then how could you possibly know your particular 'jesus' from all the others?
Even if the fables in your bible were about some particular human jesus, then it means little, unless something extraordinary can be known (and proven) about one particular man.
To say he was just a great teacher or preacher, does nothing towards assuring you of some after death reward, now does it?
Therefore, unless you can find evidence that some jesus existed who did super-human things, really walked this earth, then you have nothing to convince anyone here with, now do you?
Of course, as Sconnor has already shown you, there is NO EVIDENCE for your jesus, or any of the miracles he was reported to have done on a personal level, but especially not for any miracles that would have been witnessed by a large percentage of the human population.
Your bible book is filled with nothing but mythical stories, all to appease and control, the gullible and weak minded who savor and relish such things.
ATF (Who's bitterness towards the bible is well founded, given the grand hoax that was played out to me about it's fictional characters being of our common reality)
All that can be heard is, the faint echo, of marie's feeble beliefs, trailing behind her, as she bails.
--S.
When she got called on it, she lashed out in anger and then flounced off. Oh, well, no big loss, I suppose.
But I do wish she would have made an attempt to answer the simple questions of why she thinks she needs to be a believer and what she thinks would happen if she were not a believer. I noticed that she repeated that she "only needs to believe" in her pissed-off post, but it appears she is either unwilling or unable at this time to explain what that means to her.
I hope, for her sake, that she will ponder this question until she is able to answer it rationally — at least for herself, if not for an audience of us mean, old exxies.
He apparently did not think that Jesus was a god, because he did not believe in a personal god of any sort.
And on one occasion, a Catholic student tried to convince Einstein to convert to Christianity. He is reported to have replied,
A Jewish teacher. Not a god. Not a Christian, either.
And if you consider the Testimonium Flavianum of Josephus to be a "historical document" supporting the existence of Jesus, you're unfortunately quite wrong about that. The document has been tampered with, probably by an early Christian apologist, and is not viable as a historical record.
We got tired of waiting and hung up.
As a nursing student myself, I am taught in my profession not to deny or contradict the strong emotions that others feel; when any human being is told that what he is feeling is wrong or misguided, he/she will naturally react in a defensive manner. Along this vein, I appeal to both ex-Christians and current Christians on this website to respect each other's emotions as genuine and to apply rational rhetoric and mutual respect for each other during any dialog that you engage in. In this way, it is more likely that we will arrive at truth in our discussions
Respecting the emotions of others is perfectly acceptable. What we, as ex-xians, are forever being asked to do is to accept emotions as evidence. When that happens there is always a robust response. When it happens many times in a day from people who appear to have learned how to write but not how to read (or they would have discovered the futility of their actions by perusing the contents of this site) then the response is likely to be, at least, tinged with anger.
The anger of which you probably speak, that you identify as emanating from ex-xians, is rarely directed at individuals in the church, other than at certain church “leaders” whose failure to practise what they preach has contributed to a growing dissatisfaction with xianity and helped lead to a deconversion, but rather that anger is directed at the hypocrisy, fallacy, inanity, inconsistency, untruthfulness, corruption and unreliability of the xian message and the god that message describes and depends upon.
What is more often remarkable is not anger but bitterness, which has arisen from the fact that ex-xians have been cheated of time, talent, resources and life experiences as the direct consequence of having been sucked into the xian experience.
Escape from the cult has often been the result of the discovery and use of reason, rationality and science. This engenders a commitment to clear, logical and critical thinking, skills which it takes much time and effort to acquire. To be subjected to the dripping tap torture of dim-witted evangelists, who give the impression that the neuron in each their heads lead a lonely life, and their regurgitative citing of scripture which they know we no longer believe, and to be accused of a lack of perspicacity by these visitors inevitable causes the bile to rise and anger results.
Children eventually grow out of the idea that constant repetition establishes a tenet of faith as factual and we are tolerant of them as they mature; our xian visitors have never undergone the maturing process or have, willingly, regressed to infantile intellectual practices, despite the admonition to give up childish things by their hero, Paul. To invite us, incessantly and without charm, to embrace their dulled cognitive processes and make them our own, again, is worse than rude, it is akin to an invitation to suicide – an invitation which we are lief to reject, and vehemently.
I am not convinced that you have done much more than take a cursory glance at the contents of the various threads on the site. You should have observed that the majority of responses to our evangelists are in the form of learned and well-researched arguments outlining our position and why they are held. These often contain questions we would like our visitors to address. The emotional responses which occur are normally later in the conversations when, as usual, the questions we put are ignored as our visitors attempt to drown us and our question in meaningless mounds of “holy writ”.
Yes, we dress our responses and comment up in strong language: partly as a result of throwing off the fetters of the repressive cult of which we were all once part and partly because the language often best transmits the strength and meaning of our ideas. To liken myself to a retired dung-beetle because I have stopped pushing anyone else’s sh!t around but my own may be offensive to some, but if they engage their brains rather than their emotions they will understand the depth of feeling this conveys. If they respond emotionally, the problem is theirs and not mine.
Anger towards Christians is not particularly rational, though it IS sometimes cathartic. You confuse the mechanisms by which thoughts are facilitated “mere biochemical/electrical events in the brain” with the motivation behind them (mechanism as yet unknown). “Being angry at a Christian for what he is saying” is entirely justified when that xian claims to want to involve you in debate and you discover this is only a way of engaging your attention in order to deliver a sermon. “Being angry at a type I diabetic because his body can't produce insulin.” is unjustified, though berating that same diabetic for refusing to inject insulin AND for trying to convince others to join in his death cultish behaviour is not only justified but mandatory in a civilized society.
“When any human being is told that what he is feeling is wrong or misguided, he/she will naturally react in a defensive manner.” When that person eventually comes to realise that being informed of their error has saved them from a delusion which is likely to cause them and their loved ones irreparable mental and emotional harm, they will be grateful, and to this end I will continue to point out, robustly, to our visitors that they in serious error and are placing their mental, emotional, genetic and social welfare in severe jeopardy.
Lastly, if our visitors cannot, as I suspect, read, and are unable to take on board the description of the purpose of this site as it is set out for them to see when they arrive here, then I am afraid that they deserve everything they get. A little like their god’s and their doctrine’s take on their hell.
Peace, and thanks for your contribution,
David
Along this vein, I appeal to both ex-Christians and current Christians on this website to respect each other's emotions as genuine and to apply rational rhetoric and mutual respect for each other during any dialog that you engage in. In this way, it is more likely that we will arrive at truth in our discussions
Oh there is no doubt, the christian's emotions are genuine. It's them, attributing said emotions, to an all-powerful deity, that is in question.
There is zero, objective evidence, that a personal god is working through and/or making his presence known by giving the subject the "feeling he resides in them.
This supposed "proof" is not worthy of any sort of respect and depending on the christian who asserts such "proofs" -- sometimes -- they are only worthy of outright ridicule.
--S.
of us who have been at this site for a while have noticed in reality, most fundies
are deaf to arguments of this sort. They merely come in here to preach and try
to convert, and when confronted with logic and reason (and when someone
punctures holes in their arguments using facts, not faith) they resort to blabbering
every Bible verse they can remember, which does not influence anyone here;
we've been there, remember?
Personally, I think most of the Ex-Christians at this site are not so angry with
the individual Christians as they are angry with Christianity and their experiences
with it. But when one of the Christers starts to get high-and-mighty with their
self-righteous nonsense, or shows no connection whatsoever to reality, they
get both barrels and deservedly so. Remember, no one invited them here.
This site was intended for the support and encouragement of Ex-Christians or
those considering leaving the Christian religion.
Good luck in your nursing career. My mother was a registered nurse for many
years, and I know its a very important and responsible job.
The person who "lacks faith" does not carry the onus of "proof". To illustrate---if you and I don't believe in the existence of Poseidon, Thor, Shazam, or H.R. Puff-n-Stuff, then hopefully we can agree that neither of us *need* "faith" to disbelieve in these characters. Thus, it is not our burden to show that our "lack of faith" is "true". Conversely, the person who holds that one or all of these characters exist, carries the onus of "proof".
Belief/nonbelief is not the "two-way" street that you seem to imply that it is. In other words, my "lack of faith" doesn't need to be "useful" in an argument, or debate.
To illustrate my point, if one were examining the evidence for the historical existence of, say, King Arthur or Robin Hood (to use a religiously neutral example), one could just as well start out with agnosticism as with unbelief; if one has never examined the evidence, it is more accurate to say that one doesn't know whether these figures existed than it is to begin the inquiry assuming that they do not exist.
As for which side has the burden of proof in religious-type debates, contentions are made on both sides for sharing the burden of proof vs. having the believer bear the burden of proof, and I won't even pretend that I have anything to add to that discussion. My main point is that, however one considers the evidence, one's religious experience (or lack of religious experience) is not the type of hard evidence that is going to oft convince those on the other side.
romans 3.23 says: all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
becomeing a christian doesnt change that. dude, i sin daily and ill be the first to admit it and point out my faults. i also believe that God forgives me when i ask him to because he loves me and wants to have a relationship with me without my dirt standing between Him and i.
cool so that said, i want to address the ten bucks challenge. =) if you check out
Matthew 7:6, you'll see my reason why your challenge holds no ground with me.
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
now hear me out on this, im in no way refering to you as a dog or a pig, but in the same way you dont do what that verse litterally says, i wont give ya 10 bucks. what good would it do for me to give you 10 bucks? all it is, is a vain attempt to try to prove you wrong. so what if i do? does that change your mind about christians, my God, or what i believe? na, it just makes me look like a "dumb sheep", tryin to look pious and not look like a dumb sheep.
one more thing ill say before i go.
the bible doesnt contradict itself, so even though when you quote a part of the sermon on the mount, it does in and of itself stand by itself but when compared with other scriptures such as the pearls before pigs metaphor, (metaphor? idk.) im under the impression that im to give over and above whats asked of me but as soon as it becomes pointless serves no purpose, i should look elsewhere to better invest my cash. =)
give me a shout dude,
Justin
No, you are just refusing to obey your god and excusing your lack of obedience through your own private interpretation.
Frankly, I don't blame you. Giving to ANYONE WHO ASKS is a retarded command. There is obviously nothing divine in that command, any more than there is divinity in the command to stone people who break the Sabbath.
I have an idea for you! How about you shed 10% or more of your hard earned cash giving to ministers wearing $500 suits and telling you God speaks to them directly! Now that's something worth investing your cash in!
Ten lousy dollars is TOO MUCH to part with in obedience to your god? How freaking much do you spend on sodas in a week? How much was lunch yesterday?
Wow.
And, my self-righteous Christian "dude," you haven't given me a thin nickel, so how do you know it's "pointless?"
Judgmental self-righteousness -- thy name is Christian.
Lose the bluster, Justin. Your god is imaginary, and even you know it. That's why you are able to so casually dismiss his supposedly direct commands.
dude, you know a tree by the fruit i produces. in the same way you know a christian by the "fruit " they produce. i dont consider everyone who claims to be a christian real dude. thats just stupid. you might as well call an athiest a christian. the pastor that wheres a 500 dollar suit doesnt care about the God he "serves", but what his god can do to serve him.
so call it what you will dude, i prefer to say im making a wise investment by hanging onto that 10 louse bucks and givin it to help pay for some kids livin in the slums of africa or brazil to have fresh drinking water. you tell me which is the better investment.
take a step back and look at both of our motives mate. who's being self-rightous, or judgemental?
you tell me.
your bro,
Justin
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus clearly and plainly teaches to give to all who ask, even evil, wicked, badly motived people. If you're forced to walk one mile, GO TWO. If you're asked for a coat, give also your cloak. Look at it again, dude, mate, or whatever you like to call yourself. If you choose to reinterpret the commands of your god-man to fit what makes more sense to you personally, it's no skin off my nose. Christians do that sort of excusing their disobedience constantly.
That's the entire point of this article, son. If this conversation is pissing you off, maybe a good look in the mirror is what you need. Otherwise, just ignore the silly rantings here. What difference does it make to you what I say? All that matters is what your pretend god-man thinks about you. Right?
Keep your money. Your god is imaginary.
Let me introduce you to a thing called the ENTER KEY and these things to >> . , ; ! ? <<
They help those who might wish to read your salad, not land up all cross-eyed.
ATF (Who knew this was a fundie, before even read one word of what was written)
But he is still not a true christian and won't follow the Bible and give 10 dollars.
Long justification but that is just an excuse for his lack of faith.
a true christian is to you what the wolrd defines it as. i make my own definition and you dont consider all of what i stated only what you wish to argue againts consider all the fact before you state something. IF you read then you would know i dont take everything in the bible literally i even believe that some of the teaching in it can be wrong. because of its history which is stated in the passage. Truly did i say i wouldnt give to him. look at the comment below. what is really good if i give to him and then he used it for something wrong or i gave to him and i would know it was not on nothing that would burden him self like drugs. im not saying he has to stop using if he's using but but if i really someone really care would you a be the reason why he's using drugs or has durgs and gets aressted with it you seem to allow every one to define what something represents seek the truth on your own let the man give me a P.O box he says its not about money so its shouldnt be a problem for him to get a P.O box and ill send him what he want that equates to 10 dollars it shouldnt matter how he gets it as long as he gets it. when you give or help someone you can only put your hand out they have to grab it so i can lift them up this is not that type of situation but lets pertend it was
2.) If you dont take the BIble literally then you can make up whatever you want about the bIble to justfiy what you are doing
3.) If you argue by making up stuff - you have no facts or proper method of Biblical exegesis
4.) That easily explains why you choose to ignore the parts of the Bible that force you to do something difficult - like give up a paltry 10 dollar.
5.) I think your rationalizations about drug use are childish and obviously fake - you cant buy drugs with a measly 10 dollars.
Here is what the webmaster stated above: "My motives are clear. I am using your disobedience to your god to demonstrate that there are no true Christians. It's as simple as that. I don't expect you to send me any money, and I'm not trying to get any money out of you by making empty promises of some magical, mystical rewards sometime after you're dead!"
6.) Hence Tre31 proves the webmasters point. Its obvious that whatever Tre31 believes - the Bible as Word of God is to be believed at his own leisure.
7.) Conclusion Tre31: It is obvious belief in God is purely self-justifcatory - his "no-definition" of God allows him to justify whatever he wants to do.
There are no "true christians" cause chritsians like TRe31 will believe in whatever intepretation is easiest for them to believe in. Which is the whole point of the challenge.
:)
It isn't about what I do. It's about God and who He is. In other words, if I don't obey His commands, it doesn't cause me to lose my faith or my salvation. When Jesus died on the Cross, He fulfilled the law. He conquered death. He died for my sins. And so I don't go around trying to willingly sin (you know, I don't use Jesus as an excuse to steal or murder or anything like that), but when I do sin, there is forgiveness and grace and mercy.
Believers should obey God's Word out of LOVE for God and love for others. That love is not easy. If I am not walking with God, I have a very hard time loving others! But I know that I do try to obey God's Word, and I do not understand every verse... there are many verses that I will say, "God, I don't get this... help me understand," but I know what is most important... salvation through Jesus Christ, loving God, loving others, and sharing that good news.
The verses you mentioned above are difficult ones, and I can see how you interpret them the way you do. The main gist of them though is love. Jesus teaches a love that is "radical" because it is so different and expects so much, and for me, I realize that I am incapable of loving like that without being in a relationship with Jesus.
Well, I am very tired, and I'm not trying to "troll" your site. I'm not sure if I'll be back here because I will probably forget the name of this site. But, I wish you well, and I do hope and pray that maybe one day, you will know the love of God for you. It is so good and so great. It is always there.
I can understand how you feel the ways that you do. You have many different experiences here- some have experienced hypocritical churches or people, some found inconsistencies in the Bible, etc. I have had times of doubt, pain, struggle, anger, and bitterness, also, and times of questioning my faith.
So, anyways, I am rambling, and I suppose you could be right, there are no true Christians, but our Christianity is not because of who we are and what we do, it is because of who Jesus is and what He has done for us. I have tasted life without Him, and for me, it was miserable, empty, lonely, meaningless. So, even if I am not a "true Christian," I still LOVE God and I hunger and thirst for Him so much. I know that in Him is life and joy and peace and hope. I hope that one day you will know that, too, and will love and be loved by Him because He will never cease loving YOU!
I have got some great news for you too.
Understandably - it may seem strange to say someone whom we have no evidence exist has any strong feelins for us.
Nonetheless the good news is that if that is the case - I can think of a dozen other people that love you too.
Harry Potter loves you
Ahura Mazda loves you
Allah loves you
Loki loves you
Thor loves you
Vishnu loves you
Hanuman loves you
Batman loves you
The Transformers love you
I hope that these extra entities help you to feel better about yourself. If you read some of the stories - you will realise that may even have less contradictions than the Bible and furthermore that they usually are less mean than the OT God.
Don't worry!
You will always be loved by the Olympian Pantheon
So the story goes.
Okay, well, at least you aren't speaking as though you had no choice but to navigate inside, as recent "stumbling" Christian, "Kymberly", implied during her visit here.(Hi, Kymberly!...if you're lurking)
I just thought I'd add that I am a Christian...
If you're a "Christian", then you should pay special attention to the point of the article. Now, will you give a measily $10 as it pertains to "giving", per the Christian doctrine? Or does the request sound ridiculous to you? If the latter, then I agree, it is ridiculous, and this why it should become clear to you that there are myriad more absurdities in the Christian doctrine, all of which, a) call upon people to allow their intelligence to trump what some 2000 yr-old manuscripts say, and subseqently, b) to USE that intelligence to conclude that the language therein is NOT the inspiration of a "God", but instead, that of uneducated, Bronze-aged, superstitious men.
Bottom line: If you're not going to "give" when asked, as "the Bible" clearly says, then it's because you are smarter than that, and thus, you are over-qualified for the title "True Christian".
... and I love God with my whole heart
Marvelous---you "love" an invisible being for whom there is not one scrap of objective evidence for its existence. Notwithstanding, you seemingly offer what you *believe* to be "evidence", so let's examine some of that now.......
I am a perfectionist, and I used to try so hard to be the perfect Christian. But in the last few years, after failure after failure, I learned how to be a failure and that's hard to explain I guess, but I realized that even when I fail, God loves me.
In a nutshell----you, and all human beings, are imperfect. 'Got it.
Agreed, however, this is only evidence that human beings are not perfect. It is not evidence that an invisible, conscious being exists, and that it "loves" you. Moreover, trying to achieve what the Christian philosophy says is NOT acheivable..i.e.."perfection", which is unacheivable due to our supposed "inherent sinful" nature, is a form of insanity. You are born f%cked up(because of someone else's "trespass", no less), but then biblegod demands that you not be f%cked up, all the while, telling you that you cannot obtain the Glorious Righteousness of "God". This notion creates anxiety, and is a form of emotional/mental abuse(that you are imposing on yourself, if you are "Christian")
It isn't about what I do. It's about God and who He is.
What you "do"(or don't "do"), again, is zero confirmation that a "God" exists. Good grief, human beings "do" all sorts of things. For sake of argument, though---the "God" that you pretend to love and worship supposedly has Absolute knowledge of what you will "do", anyway, per its "omniscience". Okay, I see a problem with that......do you?
Secondly, what you and all Christians "do", in relation to "Commandments" and "Sins", etc., is....and get this...... entirely IRRELEVENT in the end!. Why?..... because only "belief" matters. Thus, nonbelief is the only true "sin", and that's probably why its "unforgivable". Thus, the irony ,and sad reality is, if your make-believe worldview is actually true, there could feasibly be more murderers, rapists, and child-molesters in "heaven", than in "hell". Yes, the aforementioned heinous crimes are "forgivable", that is, if one just accepts "Christ" as their "Lord and Savior" ...blah, blah, yada, yada. Conversely, a nonbeliever who never commits ANY of those heinous crimes, spends an eternity being incinerated in hellfire for the "crime" of nonbelief. Again, I see a huge, huge problem with that. Do you? Do "love" and "Justice" come to mind when you examine these ideas thoroughly with an objective mind? Think hard.
I'm sorry to not reply to everything you've written. I did read your comments, but I've already been here too long tonight and it's getting late and my eyes hurt. And my computer starts typing like in slow motion after awhile typing here. ??
Anyways, no I am not going to give $10, and the reason is that I do not wish to try to convince anyone here that God exists or that the Bible is true, or anything else. If it's interpreted that I am disobedient and thus, not a "true" Christian, that's okay. :) I am pretty sure that nothing I say or do will convince anyone here to believe God exists, etc. Mainly I had posted some things in reply to what they had written and mainly I wanted to encourage and "speak the truth in love" thinking maybe there is one person who would be touched hearing the truth that God loves them.
Well, thanks for the reply and I wish you well!
Wow! That makes me feel so sad for you, and for people like you who need an imaginary crutch just to be decent human beings. I guess that's OK, if that's what it takes for you to get through life — and you don't do any of the horrible things so common among the religious, such as trying to impose your theology on other people, particularly through the schools or government. But, I am sooooo glad I don't live that way.
I stopped even trying to believe in a god about 33 years ago, and I never had any problem loving other people, treating people decently, and living a good life. The same can be said for millions of others who don't believe in any god or in your version of a god. (And, if you think otherwise, you are a bigot and a most UNloving person indeed.)
There are many on this site who can tell you that getting free from the cult of christianity allowed them to be better, kinder people — once they were no longer deluded into thinking that they "needed" religion and that only christians can access "life and joy and peace and hope" and are therefore better than the other 70% of the world's current population.
They can also tell you that when they were christians, they felt the same warm fuzzies and low self-esteem that you imply drive your jesus belief. You're not saying anything new that we haven't only heard a million times before but have also experienced. It's just that we choose to live in reality.
I hope someday you will research the history of christianity as we did, seek counseling from a non-biased professional, or otherwise get over your delusion that you are such a lowly, miserable wretch that you cannot function free of your religious fixation.
As it is now, you are serving as an example that reinforces why we are so glad to have rid ourselves of that delusion. And, while we do appreciate occasional reminders of how christianity can stunt a person, it would really be preferable to see you grow up and stand on your own feet as a person who can love and behave decently without the crutch.
I understand how what I said came across, but love, to me, is different than being a decent human being or being kind. It is easy, for the most part, to be decent and kind. And it's not too hard to love those who love me back or who are easy to love. So, when I say love I'm talking about the love that doesn't come easy... loving people who are difficult to love or loving when I am busy and don't have time to help someone, etc.
Hope that clarifies! :)
As for Jesus being my "crutch," I guess it's better than haivng alcohol or drugs or something else be my "crutch."
And, yes, you are right... there are many who are not Christian, like yourself, who are very decent people and who do alot of good in this world, and I have many nonChristian friends who are really great people. Being a Christian certainly does not make me better than anyone else. But I also don't view myself as a "lowly, miserabe wretch." :) Didn't mean to give that impression if I did.
I need to get. Take care! :)
Could I just play devil's advocate for a second though? It's to do with something I used to say when I was teaching in school (though I honestly have no idea what the topic was - I only remember the illustration). I used to say to the kids that there's a rule - no running in the corridors. I would say that if I walked out of my classroom and saw them charging down the corridor in my direction, I'd tell them to stop running, therefore enforcing (and reinforcing) the rule. HOWEVER ... if I walked out of my classroom and saw them charging down the corridor being chased by a crazed looking man waving an axe, I wouldn't ask them to stop. (I told them I'd just try to outrun them - though I guess if I'm honest, I'd like to think I'd have some super-cool ninja-like move to do on the bloke with the axe, therefore saving the day).
The point is (and this is where the devil's advocate bit comes in) surely I haven't stopped 'believing' the rule, in fact, arguably, I have just as much respect for the rule whether the axe man is there or not. I have merely accepted that there are exceptions to the rule, because life has more than one rule.
If this has already been said (though surely not as eloquently ;o) ) then feel free to get on with life without responding. I just thought I'd throw it into the mix!
If it is ultimately up to us human beings to subjectively interpret and evaluate a circumstance where these supposed authorative religious rules may apply, then these rules are clearly not Ultimate, Universal rules. 'Hope this helps.
Anyway, the point I was making is that we can't condemn people for failing to 'keep' this command, when there will be plenty of reasons which make it nigh on impossible to logically keep. If I was going to be more specific, perhaps I'd say, "well, my son also wants ten dollars (not sure why - he's only two!) so I'm going to give it to him, not anyone else". Would that be a failure to keep a command? Surely every ten dollars I have (which is very few, as I'm English), I effectively have to make this kind of decision. And therefore, a failure to give it over to anyone who asks wouldn't necessarily logically be a failure to keep the command (though on the surface, it would seem logically to be so!).
It's getting late, so I'm off for tonight, but look forward to seeing the response(s). If you're quick, I'll have a look after I've brushed my teeth (sorry, that's the sort of excess information people put on their facebook status - completely unnecessary)
You'd have to qualify what you mean by "Truth", and what it includes. To my understanding, the Christian philosophy, which is delineated in the Christian hand-book, the "Bible", is purportedly the (objective) "Truth", cover to cover. The point of the article(to my understanding) is that no "Christian" follows/lives by the contents of the "Bible", cover to cover, as it would be quite ridiculous to do so. Speaking for the sake of discussion as the bible for a strictly "moral" compass, or "Truth", I would contend that it is not. Perhaps there are some "poetic truths"(lower case "t") in the bible. Fine; however, these are not unique to Christianity.
Interesting hypothetical with the ten bucks. But, let's not be myopic of the christian philosophy.
A major 'faith' based hypothetical held by christians, is that one only has to "ask" God in earnest prayer, and they will never find their self wanting - they'd have no shortage of funds if this hypothetical were true.
Thus, by 'entering' your hypothetical argument as an 'escape' hatch, or legalized 'loophole', to allow your self the flexibility to 'choose' who gets the ten bucks or not, you undermine basic biblical doctrine.
However, let's hypothesize that your words and imagination trump biblical teaching, and you were god for a day. Can you support your reason to give ten bucks to your child, as opposed to any one else in the world?
I'd like to hear, how you are able to come to that moral conclusion? I'm inclined to believe, that most all christians, use their emotions as 'the' dominant means to make moral decisions.
Christians, euphemize their emotionally e.g., irrational, driven decisions with the word 'faith'. When you finally make your decision to give money to your child, as opposed to anyone else on this planet, you will not likely say, you did it based on irrational emotion, you will likely say, I made my decision based on 'faith'.
Decisions that result from an appeal to 'Faith'; are the unreasoned demands of a tyrant.
Tyrant - "An absolute ruler who governs without restrictions."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tyrant
As for the 'context' out of which the original post-er wishes not to take the verses, surely the 'context' is the Bible, or at least the New Testament, not just the immediate verses surrounding the 'command'. Therefore it would be possible to argue that the (wider) context helps to clarify the intention of the command...
An exception to a rule doesn't make the rule unworkable, or useless, it merely demonstrates its limits (as in my crazy-axe-man case).
Maybe I'm trying to think about too many aspects of this at once, as it's getting a bit 'leggy'.
Satan isn't the only one to do that, Humans also tend to copy Satan and use the Bible against Christianity. Right now You're using the bible to get us to support your cause to prove us 'wrong' So I will respond using this;
Matthew4.7: Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
I am a Christian and so therefor a Child of God, I give money to those who ask for it unless they use it to use against God, (With the case of Homeless, I just give them the money and pray the use it for right) I assume that you're going to use these ten bucks for this website, and I won't give money to something that goes Against God's teachings when there are allready people who need it more than you.
Btw, I'm broke anyways.
Perhaps you should've simply not posted rather than embarrass yourself with that snivelling excusefest of yours.
Perfect! I love that line, Astreja. Perhaps we should start using it more often as a pat response to the True Christians™
who try to justify/explain/rationalize their beliefs in hopes of drawing us back into The Fold™. That, and of course, your Clue-By-Four™.
BP
Funny, these verses from your holy book shows it's OK to test god
The wet / dry wool test worked well for Gideon.
And Gideon said unto God, If thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said, Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said. And it was so: for he rose up early on the morrow, and thrust the fleece together, and wringed the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water. And Gideon said unto God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew. And God did so that night: for it was dry upon the fleece only, and there was dew on all the ground. -- Judges 6:36-40
The Elijah light-my-fire test is another option.
Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word. Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. -- 1 Kings 18:36-38
And the turn-the-sun-back-10-degrees test worked well for Isaiah and Hezekiah.
And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal me...? And Isaiah said ... shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees? And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees. And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward. -- 2 Kings 20:8-11
Furthermore, didn't jesus have to jump through hoops by working miracles to prove he was the messiah -- der?
--S.
Okay, before I continue, I myself am an ex-Christian. But I am also not a hater. I am not going to run around trying to hurt all Christians just because I don't believe the Jesus story anymore.
Having said that, this experiment is flawed because there's no way all the Christians in the world will see this article. There may very well be some very "true" Christians who don't even use the internet because they believe it's evil. I'm not defending Christianity, just the people who practice it. Because after all, they are people. And I, for one, hope to be treated equally, even though I chose to leave the faith. So, I had better treat other equally.
You don't need to be a Christian (or a member of any faith at all) to practice the golden rule. Just my 2 cents.
Christians 2.1 billion
Leaves 4.6 billion people who don't worship the Christian god that will go straight to hell. This includes Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, atheists, etc.
Out of the 2.1 billion Christians the bible(the honest and truthful word of god) tells us:
Those who won't get to heaven are homosexuals, bisexuals, handicapped people, mentally disabled, blind, deaf or dumb, criminals who haven't repented, people who died before they got to repent, little children who don't know about repentance, Christians who weren't really Christians, people who coveted their neighbor's wife, ox or ass, people who worked on the Sabbath, people who had sex before marriage, used contraception, had abortions, committed incest, people who worshiped graven images. those who committed adultery, those who masturbated while thinking of Brad Pitt, Jonas Bros. or Beyonce or JLo and any other thing that offended god.
These add up to 2 billion +. What do we have left? 3 people who may get to heaven because they are "true" Christians.
You're question seems to involve a self-sealing argument. I.e. No-true-Scotsman. While Scripture makes it clear that a Christian is identified by their obedience, Jesus also noted, in Matthew 21, of the two sons, the son that said he would obey and didn't, and the son that said he wouldn't obey and did, one was clearly in the right.
Jesus said that the work of the Father is to Believe in the One he has sent. John 6. If then, I have believed in the One the Father has Sent, I have done the work asked of me, and I have eternal peace with God.
Yet you say, no true Christian sins? This is not true. John says, "If anyone thinks he is without sin, he is fooling himself" 1 John. Yes, a true Christian bears good fruit, and yet Paul has said, "But what I want to do, I do not do, and what I do not want to do, I do. Oh wicked man am I, who will save me from this body of death?"
Therefore, regardless of the validity of your request, my response changes nothing, as the Love of God covers the multitude of my sin.
I can honestly say that you're right that Christians, like anyone else, are hypocrits. For instance, some Christians talk about grace and have none. I can't begin to know for certain who is and isn't a Christian. I can make a pretty good guess, but, "No one knows a man's heart but the spirit of a man."
However, bowing to someone's requests become null and void the moment that submission becomes sinful. If someone says, "bow before this god." I must say no. So just because I stumble across website and read a post, I'm suddenly bound by him to give whatever he or she asks? Your very question denies the work of God, calling him a liar, because the Spirit speaks through the believers. I am therefore not compelled to give you your money, because I cannot purchase God for you. "This generation will ask for a sign, but none will be given."
But God calls us to Him, and welcomes us to enter into His presence, in humble submission, and cost of our rebellion is counted as paid. I have no freedom, not even from my own self-opression, unless I actively ebrace that freedom. Christ brings real liberty. When it comes to life, nothing free involves innaction. Life is all about vibrance. Only death brings stagnance and stubborn blindness.
Assuming that "Scripture" actually makes something "clear", please note that two chapters later you might very well find some *different* "Scripture" that is 180 degrees opposed to it.
This reveals the problem: The bible is one big free-for-all. Anyone can come along and pick out the "gems" that seemingly support one's *own* views on things, while ignoring the parts that conflict with one's *own* views. In other words, the bible is one giant, subjective grab-bag.
Continues....I am therefore not compelled to give you your money, because I cannot purchase God for you.
Strawman. No one has asked you to "purchase God" for anybody. You were asked to give a designated amount of money, per your bible, and you didn't. And why?... because you contemplated the situation and decided it's not smart or rational to simply give something just because a book says so, which underscores the point: The Bible contains commands/demands that go against logic, reason, and common sense, hence, how it is perfectly rational to conclude that said book wasn't "inspired" by any "Infinitely Intelligent" being.
Christ brings real liberty
Oh, my goodness. Thanks for the side-splitting humor.
Go ahead, you stay down on your knees with your hands clasped together. The only thing missing is the hand cuffs. Enjoy your "freedom".
Only death brings stagnance and stubborn blindness
Only lengendary, superstitious thinking leads people to believe that someone can be "stubborn" once they die.
May reason find you.
That was my point. regardless of whether a Christian is being perfect or not does not make them a "true Christian" or not, as per his ad hoc definition.
As for his request, it very well may be valid, and I'm simply being disobedient. That's what grace is for. However, like I said, Scripture must be interpreted by someone in the right frame of reference. If I run across something in Scripture that doesn't seem to make sense, there are three possibilities. 1. It doesn't make sense. 2. I'm interpreting it incorrectly. 3. It does make sense, and it's only difficult to understand because it's an infinitely intelligent being trying to explain something that I can't understand, YET.
Ergo
1. Someone can demand ten dollars from me, and I should actually give it to them, yet this does not make me a true Christian.
2. Someone can demand ten dollars from me, and because I reasonably believe that if an Almighty God exists, and he's a Reasonable being, I can reasonably think to myself, "maybe a reasonable God was getting at something else as well."
3.Regardless, my payment or lack thereof changes nothing. I could be right, and therefore safely in possession of my $10 until I'll probably use it to buy a WWJD sticker, like any good Christian...Or I'm wrong, in which case, I'm sure I'll see the light somewhere down the line.
I don't expect it to look like liberty to you. Paul said,"Though to those who are lost, we are the aroma of death, yet to those who are being saved, we are the aroma of life."
Lastly, I'm pretty sure a cadavre doesn't move not matter how much you yell at them, and they can't see. So figuratively and literally, I still get an epic win on that one.
Jesus said, "I thank you, Father, for choosing to reveal these things to the children, for this was your good pleasure." And God said, "The wisdom of the wise I will frustrate."
I preach Jesus, and him crucified, a stumbing block to Israel, and foolishness to the Gentiles.
Yes, that is, "clear" of any possibility that "Scripture" can be wrong.
...as anything that needs interpreting requires the right frame of reference.
I think logic and reason make a wonderful, not-to-mention, the most reliable "frame of reference", to date. The absurd supernatural claims - along with the crippled philosophies on "Morality" and "Love" found in the pages of the bible - clearly defy logic and reason a great portion of the time.
The main point of my statement was that Scripture does give a very clear definition for who is a Christian: Anyone who believes in him will have eternal life, the work of my Father is to believe in the One he has sent(blah, blah, blah)
Millions of bible-believing human beings would disagree with your criterion. They can take the same book that you quote, and find verses that say a "True Christian" must do/be this, that, and the other thing....yada, yada.
Case-in-point: There is no objective way to confirm who is a "True Christian", and who is not. BTW, Calvinists would disagree with your assertion that mere "belief" in Christianity gets one "eternal life".
As for his request, it very well may be valid, and I'm simply being disobedient. That's what grace is for[bold added]
You leave out one not-so-small detail: This alleged "grace" is useless until/unless one is a "Christian". In other words, Christianity has strings attached. Do people in "Hell" get "grace"? No, of course not.
Anything else? 'Hope not.
So,
1. Webmaster says, "If you're a true Christian, you're supposed to give me $10 dollars if I ask you to."
2. You say, "You can't define what a true Christian is!"
3.Therefore, you can't say a true Christian has to give ten dollars. Awesome!
Also quoted...
1."Scripture clearly and plainly says"
2."Scripture clearly and plainly says nothing..."
3. It appears I've found another common ground. Christians can't seem to say anything clearly AND ex Christians have the same problem.
And there there's another problem. Do Christians define what Christians are? "Many Christians would disagree." Or does that come from the Bible. "The Bible doesn't say anything clearly."
So there only thing one could establish from this ENTIRE thread is that nobody seems to know what's going on.
MORE COMMON GROUND! See, I think I see the start of a beautiful friendship.
Um, to be honest, I really can't think of any Scripture that tries to pass salvation off as no strings attached. So, I'm sorry if my fellow Christians pass it off that way. Is it free? Yes, in the sense that you don't have to pay what you should for it. Is it free? No. In the sense that you do have to fork over the deed to your life.
Unfair? You decide. All I'm saying is for thousands of years, all empirical evidence says that people are jerks, in some capacity or another.
So
Premise One:
People are bad, but are generally capable of doing good things when they have help. I.e. A strong supportive community, proper discipline, being cared for.
Premise Two:
If there is a Good, All Sufficient God out there, and they want to help, I'm sure they can help bad people do good things.
Premise three:
An all sufficient, good God can help people encourage, discipline, and care for each other.
That's what I believe. If God is Good, and he's telling my I need to give up the deed to my heart to do this, then fine. By defintion he's good, and therefore wants what's best for me.
I've got tons more, as long as you're willing to keep talking, and not tell me I'm violating the TOS everytime I say what I believe.
Yours,
Patrick
It wasn't intended to be any type of "answer". And BTW, you wouldn't be my "pal" if you were growing on my a$$.
1. Webmaster says, "If you're a true Christian, you're supposed to give me $10 dollars if I ask you to."
2. You say, "You can't define what a true Christian is!"
3.Therefore, you can't say a true Christian has to give ten dollars. Awesome!
Sadly, I cannot share your awe, simply because the challenge is offered to those like you who *do* believe that "True Christian" *can* be defined. Many define it as those who follow "God's Word"..i.e..the bible. The fact that a nonbeliever says "True Christian" is undefinable, is irrelevant. And more importantly, the Webmaster concedes that the request is ridiculous. It is to prove a point: Christians don't follow "Scripture".
1."Scripture clearly and plainly says"
2."Scripture clearly and plainly says nothing..."
3. It appears I've found another common ground. Christians can't seem to say anything clearly AND ex Christians have the same problem.
I don't recall saying "Scripture clearly and plainly says nothing". In fact, I'm arguing quite the opposite---that it "clearly and plainly" says most anything you *want* it to. *See "grab-bag" analogy.
And there there's another problem. Do Christians define what Christians are? "Many Christians would disagree." Or does that come from the Bible. "The Bible doesn't say anything clearly."
I see no conflict, whatsoever. The bible gives ambiguous, contradictory information when it comes to how Jesus' "desciples" are supposed to behave; what is required of them to be "saved". That it's up to individual interpretation does nothing to remove or change the inevitable subjectiveness of the matter.
So there only thing one could establish from this ENTIRE thread is that nobody seems to know what's going on.
Therefore, the Bible is true!
Therefore, God exists!
Therefore, Jesus is Lord!
(having fun with a non sequitur)
Um, to be honest, I really can't think of any Scripture that tries to pass salvation off as no strings attached. So, I'm sorry if my fellow Christians pass it off that way. Is it free? Yes, in the sense that you don't have to pay what you should for it. Is it free? No. In the sense that you do have to fork over the deed to your life.
Yes, of course, of course...."is it free?"
Christian: "Well, yes.... and no."
Should we be shocked by such an "answer"?(rhetorically asked)
I think logic and reason make a wonderful, not-to-mention, the most reliable "frame of reference", to date. The absurd supernatural claims - along with the crippled philosophies on "Morality" and "Love" found in the pages of the bible - clearly defy logic and reason a great portion of the time.
Dude, it defies known science, not logic. Logic isn't perfect when we don't have all the information, and science simply doesn't yet.
1000 AD
Guy one:When people get a cough, they need leeches
Guy two:No, they just need to take this pill that releases a chemical into their blood stream and kills the bacteria
Guy one:That's impossible. You're illogical
Let's examine Christ's first miracle. Turning water to wine.
Is it impossible to turn water to wine? No. It happens all the time, but through a much longer process. Plants take the water, the water absorbs the grape chemicals, the grape juice is stored and you have wine!
All Jesus did was speed up the process somehow. It's not unnatural, or defying physics. It's SUPERnatural, using some form of science we just don't know yet. Because according to quantum variances, Jesus could have had schrodinger's cat in those pitchers for all we know!
As far as love? No, that's not impossible. It's just rare. It's like if someone finding a mercedes mclarin is impossible. Impossible? No, it's just very rare.
So are you going to find a true Christian? Well, sure. Just like you can find cars anywhere. Can you find a near-perfect Christian? Those are a lot harder to find. And I honestly doubt that wherever they are, they're waiting to talk to you and me. They're probably out somewhere being bamf, loving people like we didn't know was possible.
Like I said, I've got tons more to say, if you want to keep talking.
Perhaps scientists will one day discover a seven-headed dragon that defecates golden bricks. When/if the time comes, we can readjust our knowledge. Until then, it is not logical to believe that such things exist. No one here, BTW, is arguing that science isn't provisional; we "get" that. It is religious dogma that claims Absolute, Unchanging "Truth".
As for wine, that's not what I meant at all.
The crux of my argument still stands, however. The claims attached to biblegod were feats of the supernatural for a reason.
A "God" who makes sour mash by natural means is under-qualified.
As for this thread, here are the facts.
I have been insulted, put down, belittled, mocked, and sworn at.
Yes, the poor, poor "victim".
I have behaved in no way like this.
Give it time.
If there is no God, or no personal God, or no God that cares about us, then I don't think I lose anything by believing in him.
Ah, yes...no sermon is complete without Pascal's Wager...i.e..the sucker's bet.
But when I belittle people, disrespect them, are hostile to them, mock them, and actually believe in my mind that they're delusional, based on a universe that isn't supposed to make sense anyway, I lose quite a lot.
The universe doesn't have to be intended for humankind, in order to "make sense".
If you don't like mockery, then I recommend, either, a) stop believing mockable things, or b) find a website full of people who share your mockable beliefs.
Like, Dude, things like talking snakes, yes, defy logic, because, since one of the functions of logic is to make sense of the world, and, like, since there is no scientific evidence that snakes have vocal cords with which to speak the human language, it is therefore reasonable to conclude that it doesn't make sense to believe in talking snakes. It is illogical.
Let's examine Christ's first miracle. Turning water to wine.
Lets...
Is it impossible to turn water to wine? No. It happens all the time, but through a much longer process. Plants take the water, the water absorbs the grape chemicals, the grape juice is stored and you have wine!
Hmmm, well, I'm pretty sure the implication for the water-to-wine "miracle", and those like it, is that "Jesus" was working feats of the supernatural, as opposed to the notion that he was one day holding up a bottle of water, and then went running back to the vineyard really quick, only to return with a bottle of Merlot. After all, that's the whole point of the Bronze-aged bible-redactors attaching such claims to "biblegod" in the first place..i.e..to make "Him" appear super-human to the credulous dolts of that era who were all too willing to eat it up. After all, what "God" makes wine in the conventional manner? 'Sorry...you'll have to do better.
1. You pose that no one can clearly and plainly interpret Scripture.
2. Therefore, you cannot clearly and plainly define what a Christian is.
3. Finally, then, there is no criteria based on which you can call someone Christian or not Christian.
I say again.
1. There are exceptions to Christ's command to give which are implied here.
2. There are no exceptions, and I'm being disobediant
This, however, has nothing to do with who or who is not a Christian, only, perhaps, whether a Christian is a being obediant or not.
As for your talking snakes. At some time, we didn't believe that mammals could lay eggs. We found out otherwise. At one point learned people believed that women contributed very little to reproduction. We found out otherwise. The fact that we haven't found a snake with the capability to talk is one thing that we'll just see about.
As for wine, that's not what I meant at all.
As for this thread, here are the facts.
I have been insulted, put down, belittled, mocked, and sworn at.
I have behaved in no way like this.
If there is no God, or no personal God, or no God that cares about us, then I don't think I lose anything by believing in him. But when I belittle people, disrespect them, are hostile to them, mock them, and actually believe in my mind that they're delusional, based on a universe that isn't supposed to make sense anyway, I lose quite a lot.
Your God says this: "1) John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments." You don't love your imaginary god as you are quite plainly being disobedient and doing everything in your power to ignore the silly commands of your imaginary god.
Nope. You're not a True Christian™. You're a poser.
Water has bever been turned into wine bu amy chemical process as it contains only the elements Hydrogen and Oxygen. Carbon, in the form of sugar is required along with yeast to create alcohol which is then carried in solution in the water..
Water on its own can never become alcohol.
Yet another example of ignorance and woolly thinking being used to support the myth.
Which makes you in clear violation of the TOS of this website. Read the disclaimer, paying close attention to these words:
The ExChristian.Net blog exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind. It is not an open challenge for Christians to avenge what they perceive as an offense against their religious beliefs.
BP
BP
We might as well give in now. It appears we have a "True Christian"<sup>TM</sup> in our midst. Let us now be still and learn at the feet of the True Disciple.
How do I make the superscript tag work?
According to the Q&A About Posting Comments thread, that tag and some others don't work.
I made a WordPad doc of "special" words and do a copy and paste -- examples:
Touché
True Christian™
But sometimes that's just more trouble than it's worth and I settle for True Christian(tm). lol
BTW, I am replying to you through Disqus since there is no :reply: button beneath your post on the Ex-C website. We'll see if those "special" words work through here.
BP
Thanks for the info. That'll be a lot easier than what I've been doing! I'll practice with those "tags not working" on the Q&A thread as soon as I get a chance.
Thanks again,
BP
It was my intention to perform many signs and wonders to turn you back to the path of righteousness.
And no, of course I don't know how the superscript works. The interweb is Satan's tool....
Don't let our poor welcome stop you.
BTW, will one of these signs and wonders be to provide objective and repeatable proofs of the existence of the xian god?
Why are you using satan's tool?
Perform? I thought that's what he had been doing all day -- explaining i.e Jumping through Jesus-hoops. So just *what* was all that verbiage. lol lol lol
;-)
BP
The real challenge was for you True Christians to THINK about what you believe in and why. (THINK -- in the silence of one's mind. Not PREACH -- on a clearly defined ex-christian website.)
BP
I can write that with authority, because you are blatantly disobedient to the direct command of your un-dead, man-god who as mandated his followers to give to everyone who asks.
I am clearly asking. You are clearly refusing.
And yet, here I am freely providing you with a forum to express your fanaticism, yet you cannot be so gracious as to even obey the direct command of your one and only holy god and share the cost of providing this forum by lending (giving) me ten lousy bucks!
What a taker!
Nope, no "True Christian™" here!
Fact: No where is it mentioned in the site's mission statement that this blog is set up for "debate". There are myriad websites/blogs that are specifically for "debate". Go find one. 'Mean time, you made your objection clear: You aren't going to follow the specified biblical verse that says to give to all those who ask. Fine. Sticking around and giving your reason(s) why you won't do so is immaterial, because we already know why you won't do so: Following ridiculous commands is ridiculous, even if it comes from "God".
LOL! No, this website is not all about YOU. (Incredibly though, most xtian guests who visit here do have that mentality.) This website is about US and is support for those who left christianity behind.
Oh, maybe I should retract some of what I just wrote. You see, as the typical christian visitor, you *are* supporting us. You're making it quite clear that we did the right thing in leaving the delusion of christinsanity. So thanks for that.
Bye-bye,
BP
Why is what you claim we are doing any worse than you implying flawed thought processes on the part of non-believers when you organize a "crusade" to save them?
You are a hypocrite, sir, and should be ashamed of yourself.
Read the disclaimer carefully. If you believe you are somehow encouraging us by your presence, there is something seriously wrong with you and the way you interpret language.
This is all you'll get from me. Ta, troll.
Fact, I have not criticized anyone to question my belief.
Fact. I'm merely trying to debate, which is what skeptics should do.
Fact. I am a hypocrit, but not for the reasons you're saying. You tell me I'm wrong, and I say you're wrong. That's what this debate is about. I'm not accusing you of being any better or worse than the best or worst Christian.
Without this proof, or at least some smidgeon of evidence, upon which to build your house, you are merely proving the old saw that defines logic as a means to go seriously awry, yet with confidence.
As to the insults:
had you done a little reading before posting, you would have discovered that you are getting no less a welcome than any other preacher who arrives here telling us the same old story. I make no apology for the tone of your reception, but you must consider the likely reaction of those who are terminally bored with the message you bring, especially considering that, as I mentioned earlier, most of us are capable of doing that far more eruditely than you can. NOT because we think little of you, but because we know our backgrounds in the Death Cult to which you belong.
You are among ex-pastors, ex-priests, ex-evangelists, ex-gospel-singers and all of us have spent many, many hours researching the very stuff you turn up and propound. We are quite capable of evangelising and have all done so, leading many to a faith in christ, to our undying shame and chagrin.
Because of our background, anybody who preaches the good news of the xian death cult to us is, by default, patronising. With this in mind, please stick around. We will answer civil questions but will not be preached at, at least, we will not acquiesce in being preached at and will retaliate, robustly, as you have already noticed.
Peace,
David
Furthermore, your line of reasoning is flawed, NOT because the reasoning itself is not necessarily valid, but because you have yet to prove the premise upon which your whole argument is posited :
the existence of an omnibeneficent, omnipotent, omnipresent god who is interested in and loves humans.
Until you have done that, the rest is, as you so aptly put it earlier, "Blah, blah, blah..."
1. Is my arguement valid.
2. The question remains whether my argument is true.
But that's not the point. Isn't it fair to say I'm not being delusional. If my premise isn't true, I'm simply wrong, not stupid. That's what I'm saying. Everywhere I turn so far, I'm being called a fool, a comic, delusional. I'm being sworn at and put down. I've done NOTHING To warrent this, and yet you violate the very morals by which you critisize Christians. That's all I'm saying.
And I never said, Blah blah blah. I don't think that's fair to say when you're talking to someone who has shown you respect.
LOL! No, this website is not all about YOU. (Incredibly though, most xtian guests who visit here do have that mentality.) This website is about US and is support for those who left christianity behind.
Oh, maybe I should retract some of what I just wrote. You see, as the typical christian, you are supporting us. You're making it quite clear that we did the right thing in leaving the delusion of christinsanity. So thanks for that.
Bye-by
Wow...
Let's start at the beginning.
1. I'm a Christian
2. Christians on this site are portrayed as delusional, as you just said.
3. I am portrayed as delusional
Simple logic. Don't need a degree to figure that one out.
Now,
1. Christians are criticized for judging others
2. But we're judging Christians, because we made a better moral choice to not be Christians.
3. Wait...oh, we're just like them. Hence, it's sorta like Patrick said, that Christians AND ex-Christians are the same...
No complex argument there either.
And all this time, I haven't said anything against the people on this site, claiming superior moral understanding, or calling them delusional. I don't think anyone here is delusional. I simpy disagree. And I wrote here because I was directly challenged. It doesn't matter what you call it, call it an admonishment, call it advice. I was told I am not what I claim to be, I was called a liar, and I am replying to the contrary. Simple, fair, nothing wrong with that.
Careful, your paranoia is showing.
Ssh.
The list goes on.
I'm a liar
Stupid
A fool
paranoid
and a meglomaniac
Please, stop putting me down. I haven't done anything to merit this. I've been polite, and I've been patient. And I am sworn at and derided.
None of us as a group is any better or worse than the other.
But I believe that there is a common solution to all our problems, and THAT is where my faith comes in. It doesn't make me better than you. But I believe through reasoning and logic, Jesus offers a real solution. You don't believe that. That's FINE. Let's talk about it calmly with respect for each other. That's all I'm saying. Stop making fun of me, and I won't make fun of you. That's all I'm saying.
Is that reasonable?
*You* might be able to rationalize away the supernatural brouhaha in the Bible by saying something to the effect of "Science hasn't come far enough to explain it yet."
For Me, and in fact for the vast majority of us here, that simply isn't good enough.
Talking snakes? Send one to Me by express overnight delivery.
A worldwide flood to the top of Everest? Show Me the math. What was the source of all that extra water? Why didn't the Ark get smashed apart by rain falling at a rate of 6 inches/minute? Why didn't the continents simply break apart? How did freshwater and salt water species survive the mixture of waters?
A man came back from the dead? We want something more substantial than 2000-year-old hearsay.
There's an immortal, omnipotent being out there somewhere? Then why can't cosmologists and astronomers and other scientists find any traces of its interactions with the physical universe?
Occam's Razor suggests that "It's all just an old myth" adequately answers all of the above questions, and many more.
I don't know if favouring mythology over science officially qualifies as 'delusional', but it certainly isn't the way *I* want to live My life.
Not sure if you are even still interested in the subject, but just in case you are, I would like to explain why I will not be giving you money even though I do my best to please my God with the decisions I make in life.
When Jesus was talking about "Giving to those that ask" He was not "giving a commandment" to His followers so much as He was sharing a philosophy of unselfishness.
Unselfishness and love is most of what He came here to tell us about. You can see this in His death for us. You can see this in the way He lived his life. You can see this in His explanation of the Law.
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Basically, He was saying that if you "love" or "want what is best for everyone around you," you will be obeying the "Law" (Ten Commandment, ect.) It was never about following a bunch of rules and doing a bunch of actions, it was always about selfishness vs. unselfishness. Through the Law, we can see what selfishness and unkindness looks like. Jesus stood for unselfishness and I want to too.
This was the point he was trying to make when he talked about “turning the other check” as well. He wanted us to know that being kind and living our lives for others is much more important than “getting ours” or taking revenge of some kind. He was teaching us that an “eye for an eye” like the Old Testament suggests is not what He considers best. Love and forgiveness is what He is all about. He wants us to pray for those that hurt us and do good to them. That was what He stood for, what He wants from those that serve him.
Now, because I serve and worship Jesus, I really want to do what he thinks is best. I want to make him proud of the way I live my life. I want to please him. He is my God. So, I will do my very best to take His philosophy on life to heart and also attempt to be as unselfish as I can. I try to want to help people out no matter how mean they are to me. I will strive always to want what is best for others no matter what they want for me. I will fight to obey Him because I love Him. Because I want Him to know how much I love and respect Him.
I do not try my best to obey Him because I am scared of Him or want to get to heaven. I know that my “best” will never be good enough for His perfect standards. I trust on His mercy for my soul. What else can I do? I don’t call the shots. He does. If He wants to have mercy on me He will. If He doesn’t, He won’t.
According to the Bible, He does! Which is good news for me…
Anyway…I got off the subject. What is my point??
Jesus was simply explaining this way of life for us so that we could know what He wants for us and from us.
I think that you are confusing what was intended by the passages.
Thanks for bringing it up though. It did create a lot of super interesting discussion…
Perhaps that was your intent all along.
Forever,
Paul
Amazing how this long thread consists of nothing more than self-professed christians excusing themselves why they will not obey their god.
It makes for very insightful reading - thank you, Webmdave! It also has given me a little more insight into something I hadn't realized myself yet about someone I once knew who once refused to give to a beggar in the street. I hadn't realized yet in how flagrant disobeyance of Jesus' teaching this actually was. She was also giving excuses why she didn't, incidentally. The fact that this person actually needed it more than the giver makes it all extra poignant. Incidentally, it's St.Martin's day over here today (11 november). How ironic.
They should invent a new TV game show, where the contestants have to wriggle themselves out of problems using the bible. For example, why it *would* be good to seduce the neighbour's wife... thou shalt not covet... true, but it's also written 'thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself'. And because man and wife are one flesh after marriage, the neighbour= the neighbour's wife... and thus she should be loved as myself... and my own wife... hence....!
It would make for an entertaining tv show, I think.
At least one christian though doesn't blatantly ignore her own holy book's commands/advice. At least she is consistent in trying to obey everything in there. Which worries me, webmaster... for what if your next challenge will be not to donate 10$ to you, but to stone the adulterer, the witch or the homosexual....?
Peter. (<-- hoping not to be stoned as a blaspheming heathen, which is his rightful punishment, according to biblebook)
PS: I can just see it in my mental eye - a glittery show host in polyster costume, asking the contestant 'Will *you* stone this witch, or will you disobey your god?' Let the apoletics begin!
That's a wicked sense of humor you've got! Love it.
8-)
BP
It would make for great entertainment though. We have reality shows for everything else, why not this.
We have 'wife swap', why not 'wife stone'. Or, instead of 'cheating spouses, caught on tape', it could be 'cheating spouses caught on tape...and then stoned!' The ratings would be through the roof!
How about a detective show? Non-Tithers tracked down and arrested by the church gestapo (aside: at the Crystal Cathedral in So. California [Robert Schuller's Mega-Church], members are sent a monthly bill for their Tithe). "We've got you, you cheap bastard! Now, hand over the cash or it's off to the 'stoning chamber' with you! Of course, if you would hand over that fine, virgin daughter of yours, we could look the other way (remember Lot's example {:D)
Hey, that is a good idea for another show.....'Take my Virgin daughter....Please!' Or from Noah's example 'Incest is Incredible!' Or, Or, Or.......'Slave Search' (following christians into 3rd world countries to carry out Old Testament commands).
You are onto something Peter!
XPD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZgwNutwK0Y&feat...
So are you a poor man? Are you in need of water, food, or shelter? I should think not. Instead, you are a wicked person who is trying to lead astray the children of righteousness. Why would I or any Christian support you in your cause?
#1 - Disobeys Matt 5:41 - Xtian doesn't give up the ten bucks.
#2 - Disobeys Matt 5:43-44 - Xtian calls you "a wicked person" thereby disobeying Jesus' command to love and bless one's enemies.
And just for kicks, let's apply a little SPAG here too when xtian says "Personally, I believe he (Jesus) was speaking of....."
Once again another True Christian™ visits Exchristian.net.
;-)
BP
P.S. And what's with this "do we know the context of his words" crap. The OP includes several verses, showing the context.