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I'll be looking forward to hearing more too.
Your are right - THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT CHRISTIANS! It is very sad that you had to endure all of their pressures! I am 61 and have only been a strong Christian for about 4 years. I used to wonder about the so called Christians who gathered at a church in our little town - every Wed, Thurs, Sundays! I said to my self - why don't they go and help someone in stead of just getting together all the time. The thing that changed my life was our daughter praying for my wife and me for over 15 years. Then our son sent us to a hoyistic clinic in AZ. which was the catalus that allowed God to change my life. I am now about 4 times happier and now know for sure where I will spend eternity! I will pray for you that your life will end up like mine! May God Bless you J!
Ted Betz
God Changed My Life Ministries
e-mail address --> godchangedme2@Aol.com
What and who is a True Christian (tm).
Ahh dam, they never learn.
To Ted Betz, am glad that you found "God" and are happy now. Perhaps you like to be reminded here that all of us Xtians in here do not need and want your prayers, thank you very much. And we are not in the least interested to know where we will be in eternity. It is a question that is not necessary or useful. And we do NOT want our lives to end up like yours. We will live our lives the best we know how without having to cling to any super being.
And to Scoobie's Mom, you are welcome in here but to remind you -we all in here does not believe in a God or any God that speaks. Even if that God does speak, it is indeed a very confused one. One thst speaks the Jew way, and sometimes the Muslim way and sometimes the Christian way and nobody can say for sure which is his actual language. I have no need for such a confused God.
Another true christian ge that makes three today.I bet you all go to the same church.I bet you where all baptized the same way.
Christians have had faith the size of a mustard seed for 2000 years.
Well done you've managed to move a mountain of money in the wrong direction.
Remember this body of christ.A house divided will not stand.Your days are numbered.Your jesus is dieing.Hip Hip Horay Glory glory
The spirit of the turd is upon me.
never before have so many done so little for so long for so much.
I can't wait till you fools get raptured.Just think about all those flash cars, houses,big bank accounts and church realestate.
Just imagine we could sell the church assets and solve world poverty.
Why didn't jesus think of that.
because www.jesusneverexisted.com
You are lucky I am not cursing you.
Like that cursed bloke who got hung on a tree.
C.O.C. pronounced "cock"
I was raised in the COC. And I went to a COC private school and COC summer camp and a COC college (parents paid, hey, it was free and smoking and drinking off campus was more fun, also sex before marriage was a BIG no-no so screwin' was more fun). At the age of twelve there was great pressure to be baptized because puberty was setting in and unclean thoughts were as well so we youngin's were finally accountable. Since I had already lost my "faith" at the age of eleven I had no interest in being baptized. But all the others my age were being baptized and it was sooooo special but I couldn't quite get it, it didn't make sense to me. But to make a long storyshort, I feel your pain John, I can relate!
Remember who you are.Not what you have been.
It's really devastating when people who claim to be of God go and traumatise people!
I'm hearing of church after church that has the strangest beliefs.
For those who would like to have a refreshing look at Jesus I think the webstite www.wayofthemaster.com
is an awesome site to check out.
Deb, NZ
What you went through was really bad. Assuming your Mom stayed clean, one of the problems is that some people get as addicted and mixed up with the purpose of religion / church in early recovery. Those at the church should have kept the boundaries.
Tonight is the first time I have seen this site, and it is very interesting.
Still sorting it out
I was thinking about what "JULES" said and it is kind of funny as I used to think the exact same thing. I can even remember where I was when I was thinking - those radical Christians - like my daughter - are just weak and need something to hang on to. Now me - ah - I am not like that - I can figure things out for myself! I remember thinking this as I was driving down Walbascin (sp?) Road on the north side of Battle Creek.
Jules, is there any way I could get you to listen to some "stories / messages on the web. One of them is aabout the life story of Addoff Coors the 4th - ownere of Coors Brewery. I just found out today that most of the message that I have been passing out on CD's at a local truck stop are now on the web. Jimmy Evans from Mississippi had them put on there. He is the one that send all the CD's to me to make copies of to put at the truck stop. If you or others would like to hear them I CAN ASSURE YOU - YOU WOULD ENJOY THEM. The web address is
bestcddownloads.com
Anony, Ghandi, or "Mahatma Gandhi" was a proponent of the Hindu philosophy. He sought to bring peace; to abolish racism and predjudice. While Gandhi might've believed that at the center of every religion was love and truth (note: every religion), he was clearly against dogma, hypocracy, and violence. Hello? The Christian doctrine..i.e..the "Holy Bible", unequivocately promotes violence, prejudice, and racism....i.e..the antithesis of unconditional "love". So frankly, if Ghandi ever did consider, and then ultimately reject Christianity, it was likely because of the aforementioned reasons.
Anony: So many people use it against the kingdom, and corrupt it's purpose. We're called to love and to nurture.
Most everybody, whether they know it, or not, can "love" and "nurture" without being "called" to do so. The so-called "Golden Rule" is something that people who are part of any civilized society can learn on their own. Compared to ancient man, we are much more socially evolved, thus, we don't need to learn the obvious from any Holy book.
Anony: When someone claims to be a christian, they are saying, I have given up on myself, and have given all to God. Relationship is the key importance in any[Christian's] walk. That's where he loves to dwell.
There is no "he"; there is only "I", so any "relationship" is imagined, and ultimately a relationship with one's self, anyway. Thine own self is the Kingdom.
Anony: Honestly, the people at that church, never had that relationship or else they would of acted differently. They let tradition and routine confuse the BIG picture.
The "BIG picture" is that religion, mainly the three leading monotheistic religions, cause division and promote elitism. We simply don't need this kind of superstitious legendary thinking in the 21st century.
Read the bible? 'Dad, I gotta tell ya, that is HORRIBLE advice if the goal is to convince people to see "Yahweh" and his son "Jesus" as a reality. This may come as a big shock to you, but for many of us, it was precisely when we actually read the bible that led us to the conclusion that Christianity is bunk. Talking snakes, donkeys, and vegetation? Men camping out in a whale's belly? Swimming hammers? Mass murder..including children and animals? I suggest YOU crack open the bible and reread it, this time, not skipping one single verse. Obviously, your parents and/or preacher cherry-picked and spoon-fed you the verses they saw fit, to acheive their agenda(s).
Just a dad: Some of those [who] have posted should take a deep breath and not be so "angry" at the world.
No one's "angry" at the "world", "God", or any other make-believe character. However, we are a little concerned that grown men and women living in the 21st century center their lives around legendary superstition.
Just a dad: As the Bible (inspired word of God) states, we are all sinners because God created us with free will.
Woah, pops....where is your evidence that the bible was "inspired" by any "God"? Surely you're not going to tell me that you know this because the bible SAYS SO, right? If self-verifying documents point to "Truth", then Dianetics, the Book of Mormon, and the Holy Qur'an are all books of "Truth", too. Listening.
Just a dad: We have the will to believe or to not believe, our choice.
Right, and we don't believe. Moreover, just because one has "freewill" doesn't mean that either of any given choices have a referent in reality. You, 'Dad, have the freewill to accept or reject Santa Claus. If you reject "Him", that doesn't mean Santa Claus exists, does it? No.
Just a dad: If we would read the entire Bible with an open mind, a mind that is not weighed down by prejudice and inherited baggage, we would see and understand the entire story.
Paint me red and call me the Devil, but I would argue that it is YOU who is biased; that Christians see the bible as truth, because they want to see it as truth.(special shout-out to Buddy Ferris!) The problem is that they have to suspend logical thinking in order to do so, just like you are doing now. They have to compartmentalize; they are logical in most other aspects of what reality is, and what it is not, but they reserve an itsty-bitsy part of their brains to accept "Christianity", as illogical as it is.
Speaking of....
Especially why he died for us, even though we were sinners!
For sake of argument--if Jesus died for sinners(us), then our sins should be paid in full. Yet, there seems to be an outstanding debt. Furthermore, if he died and then was resurrected(became a zombie), then where exactly is the "sacrifice"??? Where is this zombie right this second?
Just a dad: We would understand why he said to have Faith, Hope and Love ....... and why he said that the greatest of these is Love.
I know this concept might seem foreign to you, but one can have "hope" and "love" without "faith", or being superstitious.
Just a dad: Because when we see God our Faith will be real, our Hope will no longer be needed and only Love will remain, because God is Love!
Yes, "God is Love", unless that "love" isn't reciprocated, then "God" becomes a vindictive pyromaniac with a chip on his shoulder. Nice.
Just a dad: Oh for us all to be those that strive to live like Jesus and Love one another fully, deeply and without prejudices.
Again, I can't think of a worse role model than "Jesus", either living, or fictional. Enjoy your delusion, though.
"The thing that changed my life was our daughter praying for my wife and me for over 15 years."
The thing that changed your life, was "YOURSELF". "YOU" are the one who decided to change, so therefore you changed on your own by making the decision to change.
However, your change wasn't for the better unfortunately.
TED BETZ SAID:
"I was thinking about what "JULES" said and it is kind of funny as I used to think the exact same thing. I can even remember where I was when I was thinking - those radical Christians - like my daughter - are just weak and need something to hang on to. Now me - ah - I am not like that - I can figure things out for myself!"
We've got something in common old Teddy boy. I also at one time thought the same exact way that you now currently think.
God knew what was best for me, and I didn't.
Then I tested my own ability again, and started getting results.
FYI, Serving God was a complete waste of time.
I am not ashamed and afraid to say that Jesus is an asshole, and christianity sucks.
It's true, and it doesn't matter what you believe, because "STONE COLD" Said so!
That makes it a fact!
Now bring me some damn beer!
says the Teacher.
'Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.'
What does man gain from all his labor under the sun?
A generation goes and a generation comes,
But the earth remains forever."
(Ecclesiastes 1:2-4 NIV, NASB)
"What does man gain from all his labor under the sun?"
Better living conditions. A sandwich perhaps. Sense of self worth. Knowledge. Experience. A sexy tan. Money. Health insurance.
I could go on.
"www.amazingfacts.org"
----
Yes indeed 'John', this is an amazing website.
They offer plenty of "amazing" ways to empty one's wallet of money into a delusion.
Money, that was made in the earthly world of reality, but for some reason this super god still requires this human invented currency for his gory purposes, errrr, I mean glory purposes.
Hurry folks and pluck down $490 for your very own "Tree of Life Literature Rack Set".
I swear, I'm in the wrong business if I ever wish to get rich.
All one needs to do, is to discard any compassion for your fellow human being and come up with some clever religious trickery to pickpocket money from someone's food budget.
To make this 'pickpocket' process easier, one only needs to read one of their goals.
"Our goal is to be the shortest distance between a contribution and a genuine conversion"
There you have it folks. It's never been easier to toss your money into the proverbial god-blackhole of religion.
Now don't everyone line up at once to participate in ridding yourself of those evil devil dollars.
ATF (Who is trying to decide if it's Casino's or Churches, that are the best at tricking one out of their money?)
by the way, you (John) made a good point about "fear" being the motivation
---
Hey Last John,
I suppose that you would say there is nothing to fear about your god, because he loves us, right?
I do see the way's god has loved the human race, from the writings of your bible book.
Rest assured, he protects us the way a mugger protects his victim; in that deserted dark alley.
He takes care of us, like hungry sharks take care of bait fish.
The light of your god is as healthy for the human race, as the noon day summer sun is for an Albino.
We are as safe with your god, as a mouse is with a rattlesnake.
Your god guides human lives, in the same way as a blind man would pilot an airplane.
Your god's promises are as trustworthy, as trusting a two year old child not to touch the Halloween candy left in his bedroom unintentionally.
God loves us the way Hitler loved the Jews.....The hell of god's ovens, comes in many forms.
Now if we believed in your bible god, then we sure would have something to fear alright.
Luckily, we gave up your god superstition; just as we learned to give up the fear of breaking a mirror and walking on sidewalk cracks.
ATF (Who see's no reason to fear any mythical gods of human creation)
But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it." Deuteronomy 30:11-14 NKJV
"For God
so
loved
the world,
that He
gave
His
only begotten
Son,
that whoever believes in Him whould not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His son
into the world
to condemn the world,
but that the world through Him
might be saved." John 3:16,17
"And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, 'The lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation.'" Exodus 34:6,7 NKJV
The guilty are those who don't want to accept the clearing away of sins (and are also referred to as "Those who hate Me" in Exodus 20:5), who's worldviews tend to pervade throughout the family (which is how it is in any family, but every individual has the choice). Their rejection of God brings consequences because it is basically just saying that they will trust in the finite things rather than the infinite things that don't seem to erode or pass away.
If you read the account of how the Israelites kept on trusting in their own way of doing things, it shows how God kept on trying to give them second chances, constantly calling on them, encouraging them, blessing them, offering to take care of them if they would only just accept the Salvation. The consequences of their own behavior didn't even make them think that just maybe there was a better way than trusting in themselves.
" 'Come now, and let us reason together,' says the Lord,..." Isaiah 1:18 NKJV
"Put Me in remembrance;
Let us contend together;
State your case, that you may
be acquitted." (Isaiah 43:26)
(If you look these up, to understand them better, you might want to read before and after them, even until the next chapter to get the context.)
I only write this because I used to be able to criticize Christianity along with everyone else, until I saw the truth, and since that is what I sought-the truth, I took a gigantic scary wonderful step, and dedicated my life to it. And so, instead of trying to tell everyone how wrong we've all been (I do not know the heart's of men), I would just like to say we are all bumbling along trying to find meaning to this purposeless life, why it is that some nights we are scared to go to sleep, wondering if we'll wake up the next morning, why there is sometimes an incredible feeling of loss or emptiness when we look at the world around us, and everything is dark and uncertain.
Yet, we aren't the only one's who felt that way:
"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping
Me,
And from the words of My
groaning?
O My God, I cry in the daytime,
but You do not hear;
and in the night season, and am not silent." Psalm 22:1,2
Where is the hope for a meaning? Check it out yourself and read the rest of it =) It might mean more than me just telling you when you could figure it out for yourselves.
(I don't know if any would read the book of Ecclesiastes, but it was written by a disillusioned wise man who had fallen away from God and then somehow reached a startling conclusion)
"The Law of the Lord is
perfect
converting the soul,
The testimonies of the Lord are sure
making wise the simple." Psalm 19:7 NKJV
Shut your pie-hole Marc!!
We had enough of your bible vomit posts here.
Go post this crap on some xtian site, where it MIGHT be welcome.
It's obvious that this is you Marc, as you can't debate "your way out of a paper bag", but instead just paste your idiot bible quotes here as your best defense....as if it would affect a single soul on this EX-xtian site
Now go away, and stay away!!
ATF (Who is still waiting for proof of this bible god from any xtian; but will never see it)
I contend that acceptance of that particular verse is the true "mark of the beast", in the sense that it reduces humanity to survival-obsessed creatures grovelling around in the mud and blood of Golgotha.
I, for one, choose to reject human sacrifice as the evil that it is.
1 John 4:19 - "We love him, because he first loved us."
Okay, let's go to the next verse.
1 John 4:20 - "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar:"
So, if a man loves God like, yet suggests they "hate" their own brother, then they are "liars" - and this verse applies to "everyone", even the most venerated Christian "disciples".
Luke 14:26 - "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
Well, don't want to make this complicated... Let's just point out, that the author of "Luke" suggests that the True Disciples of Jesus Christ/God, are haters.
While, the author of First John suggests the author "Luke", and Luke's "hater" disciples, are "liars".
Are the Christian disciples "haters", or "liars"?
Which "biblical author" is "lying", Luke or First John?
Now, who were the authors of these various writings and why should anyone consider these various pieces that were quoted as anything other than anonymous religious rantings of ancient ignorants?
Hmm?
And, if any piece of these writings should be considered "THE WORD OF GOD" then should all the words in these various writings also be considered "THE WORD OF GOD," or do we simply pick and choose from among these writings the parts that support a particular viewpoint?
In other words, is threats of dashing children's heads against stones "THE WORD OF GOD" or is only the more pleasant parts we should be paying attention to?
And, if the ugly stuff is to be ignored, and the pleasant stuff to be listened to, who is that can decide which parts are "THE WORD OF GOD" and which parts are not?
Just a question.
But please know above all, that Jesus came to speak to the world about love and freedom andliving life in a new way, in a way that gives you peace beyond what imagination
----
Oh goody, yet another 'true xtian' comes to enlighten us heathens.
Hey Sunshine M, perhaps you and the other true xtians (like Ray Braun, OTC etc.) can form a committee and rewrite the bible so everyone will have the same exact holy god message?
As far as the ex-xtians sounding 'angry' goes.
You're darn tooting we are angry. Angry that we were lied to about your imaginary god being, and thus wasted a good portion of our lives chasing after this fictitious creature.
Now if you have any evidence for your god (and you would be the first btw), then please provide it, otherwise, let me show you to the exit door.
ATF (Who wonders why all these hit&run xtians, are all unaware of what a paragraph is?)
But I'll make a deal with you: If you can stop your fellow Christians from barging in here every five minutes to warn us about Hell, I'll refrain from swearing at 'em. Okay?
I do find it unfortunate that Christians think they have a monopoly on love, peace and brotherhood. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced that Jesus was a real person. I am reasonably sure that, if he did exist, he neither walked on water nor came back from the dead.
And, in My opinion, not one of the alleged miracles was actually necessary. Nor are gods necessary. Why, oh why did a simple and perfectly acceptable message of "Let's take care of one another" get muddled up with supernatural silliness and such unhuman horrors as Original Sin and substitutionary atonement?