DH, I really enjoyed reading your post! I have a question for you. When you experienced speaking in tongues, what do you now believe actually happened?
DH
· 3 years ago
That's a good question, one that's been looked into by psychologists alot over the past 100 years. I don't have any of this research available but I've read some of it. What bothered me at the time of my "baptism of the spirit" was reading in a charasmatic publication about speaking in tongues by those practicing other religions, such as Hinduism. The stock Christian answer was that this was an imitation from Satan. Bah! Apparently there are brain mechanisms at play here that anyone can employ. I can now, an atheist and at will, "speak in tongues" with the same emotional exhilaration I experienced the first time. There's nothing divine about it at all.
freddy
· 3 years ago
"Those who walk away are unhappy and not genuine christians in the first place." This like saying a dedicated doctor who,"burns-out" & leaves medicine,.. was never really a physician to begin with! D.H.,.I too can still speak in tongues ,1 year after my deconversion from the so called "spirit filled life"!
Jim Lee
· 3 years ago
Hi D.H. You must almost be a carbon copy of my thoughts. We have walked a similar pathway of church deception. I can still give a very good demo these days of tongue talkin'. I reckon I could walk into a church today and start sproutin' of in tongues and convince all and sundry that I was a man of (the churches mythological) God. It's not hard to fool the masses. For those who have the gift of the gab, conning people with religious crap is a pushover.
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
mw59, it's been such a refreshing vacation not seeing your ignorant posts here. Why don't you go away and stay away. It's really so obvious that you're not very intelligent by your own admission. Do you really think that we have a desire to read anything that you post? How about take the hint, insead of being so blind sided.
Bill
· 3 years ago
mq59: That's just stupid and petty. Yes, there needs to be an accounting process to avoid embezzlement and stuff, but a WHEELCHAIR RAMP!!
They probabally had two wheel chair ramps already in place, besides why would anyone with a handicap want to go to church? To thank god for letting them become disabled?
mq59, You're really stupid!
.:webmaster:.
· 3 years ago
MQ is a troll.
freedy
· 3 years ago
Co la ta ba tay bay ,..yo sa ta kay bay,..no sha ta ba shia....etc. I just wrote in tongues!!!!!
Can I get an interpretation?
Jim Lee,....what about you?
LOL,..if no one does,... I'll interpret it later!
Ben
· 3 years ago
Co la ta ba tay bay ,..yo sa ta kay bay,..no sha ta ba shia....etc.
Meaning; that whoever should believe in such shit must be totally insane. A-men?
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
One of the better stories I've found here... thanks for sending it in.
Steve
· 3 years ago
DH, that was really fascinating. I was raised a Seventh Day Adventist. A lot of parallels, but I think what you went through was more extreme. Thanks for sharing your life here. --Steve
Petrie
· 3 years ago
Interesting post. Reads like a novel. It is interesting that these "testimonies" generally follow the same pattern, and this one looks like a compliation of the best of them.
How would we know how much of this even happened?
Are we supposed to take your word for it?
After all, you obviously despise Christianity, so are we to assume you are being up front and objective.
Maybe, but I suppose you want us to take that on faith!
.:webmaster:.
· 3 years ago
Petrie,
You don't have to believe the poster. If you doubt him, you'll not be condemned to hell, you'll not be considered back-slidden or living in rebellion, or accused of wanting to live in religious lust.
You have every right to doubt his story.
Have a nice day.
freeman
· 3 years ago
Petrie,
Up front and more objective than any christian site!
DH
· 3 years ago
In reference to Petrie’s post, our webmaster is correct-- There’s absolutely no requirement that you believe a word of my story. However, being a writer by profession, if my goal was to make an absorbing fictional account, I believe I could have done a much better job! It should be pointed out that there are some specifics in the story (names and places) that could easily be verified, perhaps even on the Internet. While that doesn’t prove the account’s authenticity (much like dropping the name Caesar in the New Testament doesn’t prove the Bible’s accuracy), it does at least lend it some credibility. For the sake of the argument, I do verify that every experience in the account is accurate and truthfully put forth. I have found that many of these anti-testimonies (on this site and others) are much more vague than mine; perhaps if I write another I should supply footnotes and a bibliography! Now, as to his assertion that I clearly “despise” Christianity, I am baffled as to what brought about that conclusion. I make it very clear (and it is my chief thesis) that I once was a Christian but that after studying its history and doctrines found there was little to support the religion’s claims. I therefore walked away from the religion, even though there were aspects of the church that I enjoyed (and was prepared to make it my career). How this could be twisted to mean that I “despise” Christianity is a mystery. Indeed, I think my story bends over backwards to be charitable and objective. After all, isn’t that the loving Christian way? [A satyrical comment, perhaps, which points to the truth that one can be a good person, moral and ethical, dealing with others in a forthright manner, without being an adherent to any specific religious system.]
Dave8
· 3 years ago
Petrie: "How would we know how much of this even happened?"
Not wanting to come accross as Mr. Obvious, but, if one wanted, I am sure they could interview this persons' family, friends, and many other empirically founded aspects of this story.
Many people, have lived aspects of this persons' testimony if not the majority to some degree. Tis', why the testimony makes that much more sense, people can take their "empirically" founded personal experience, and relate the life experience to this testimony.
Petrie: "Are we supposed to take your word for it?"
Not at all, use your own life experience to see connections and relationships, read a few scientific or peer reviewed journals, and most of all; if you really cared, do a little personal research to test the validity of some of the statements. I know this isn't the preferred method for the intellectually lazy, but then, the intellectually lazy shouldn't question the validity of anything in regards to matters of logic, they can just rely on pure "faith". Perhaps, you have "faith" that this persons' testimony is not genuine, but, that comes from one who is intellectually lazy, and well, many will weigh your words accordingly.
Petrie: "After all, you obviously despise Christianity, so are we to assume you are being up front and objective."
For those who have had similar experiences, there are little to no assumptions. However, if you have not had such experiences, then you can freely go do some homework. If you want to remain, intellectually lazy, then there is always the religious bloggs you can hop aboard on, and say whatever you want, because there is no ability to validate metaphysical claims. Hey, you can create your own personal god, and an entirely different universe in a different reality, enjoy yourself, bye.
Petrie: "Maybe, but I suppose you want us to take that on faith!"
Nope, I'd advise on never taking anything on "faith" alone. Its unfortunate, that many of us on this site, have "physically" witnesed first hand, similar events in our lives - and, you obviously haven't. So, many here, can "empathize" with the testimony, based on first-hand experience(s). This site is a support for those who have had similar/like experiences, and apparently there are enough people who can relate to the testimony, obviously with the exception of you. Hence, why some here seem to belong here, and then, you don't.
If you can't empathize because you lack experience & knowledge, might I suggest you take the time to gain some of that, before presenting yourself as a yokel [sic] in an open public venue. Your rustic logic, persuades me to feel embarassed for you - but, I'll get over it, I hope you do too.
.:webmaster:.
· 3 years ago
I believe your story DH.
What I was trying to point out, perhaps too subtlety, is that Petrie's comment of "taking your story on faith," in an apparent attempt to compare your story with Biblical accounts, is a flawed analogy. Unlike the threats of damnation and promises of "glory divine" woven into Christian rhetoric, whether one believes your story or not, there are no imaginary repercussions or rewards looming in the background.
In other words, there is no obvious personal gain to be had from the sharing of or believing of your most excellently written story, other than perhaps some satisfaction in knowing that you've encouraged someone else who is escaping, or trying to escape, the cultic clutches of Christianity.
I would guess that Petrie chooses to believe Biblical stories because it makes Petrie feel good and promises Petrie rich rewards on Mt. Olympus, or wherever, after Petrie dies.
Conversely, your story simply offers a glimpse of ordinary reality. Unfortunately, fantastic fantasy is what many people prefer.
It seems to me your personal essay had the unforseen result of making Petrie uncomfortable and nervous. For that, you have my applause.
Petrie, just for your further edification, Santa Clause is also a myth.
Oh, and I can still speak fluently in tongues too. Now I call it baby talk.
Dave8
· 3 years ago
DH: "Now, as to his assertion that I clearly “despise” Christianity, I am baffled as to what brought about that conclusion."
DH, good to see you on the site, and great post. The WM said it best, your most excellently written testimony seems to have sparked a nerve in some of the less grounded in reality ;-)
Regarding Petrie, et al., you will see them from time to time posting comments which seem to have little focus on a testimony, and at first glance seem loutish [sic], disingenuine, and brazenly with no real focus.
However doltish their comment(s) seem, they do have an agenda. They consider Atheism to be a threat, to their way of life.
Now, I know, that there are many people who regularly visit this site, and do not claim to be Atheists. However, our little buddy(ies), really don't care, as they still view this site as a haven for Atheists, and the testimonies presented as support for the Atheist movement, regardless of the testimony authors' intent. So, its not personal, they pretty much attack each testimony the same, with marginalizing, or using some form of diversion tactic. To them, the author and their testimony is justified collateral damage, in the effort to combat Atheism. The WM does a great job of scrubbing their posts, when they get out of hand.
Petrie, et al., target anything that appears to be leading up to a unified effort. As long as they can keep everyone in turmoil, they can prevent any unified effort from advancing, no matter what the effort would be. I will say, however, the effort presented on this site per the WM's intent, is to bring people together to share their experiences, and to talk to others who have had similar experiences, in order to; vent, gain emotional support, and generally gain information from those who may have had similar experiences.
The unified effort on this site, is to expose some of the ills that religion brings to humanity; typically, from an ex-christian perspective. From that common theme, Petrie, et al., wants to prevent any "further" unified effort from going forth. Thus, they interject themselves into any conversation that seems to be headed that way.
One of the favorite methods, is to immediately shift the conversation to politics. Or, more recently, to assume the position of a regular on this site, and launch attacks against other regulars in an attempt to create disharmony and disunity.
Its part of their strategy, as long as there isn't a unified effort, and they can keep everyone running in mental circles, our little buddy(ies), feel they are being effective in their endeavors.
They really aren't that intelligent, but can be annoying at times, their tactics are sorely transparent, but I suspect that they actually believe they are covertly operating out in the open, with no one the wiser. Thus, is their intellectual mediocrity.
Anyway, enjoyed your post, keep up the good fight, take care...
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
I'm curious as to what you actually do believe. Life doesn't have to be lived with such strict guidelines. I'm not going to go into a whole dissertation here, but I truly do hope you find your way back to Jesus. You sound like a really special person. God Bless you. I will pray you find your way back.
freedy
· 3 years ago
Anonymous 12:00 a.m.,..Wow!,how did you time that? Every ex-christian on this this site is very special. The fact that they are no longer Jesus clones/drones is what makes them special.Your blessing is sort of uncalled for here,...but your curiousity is always welcome! peace,...freedy
Dave8
· 3 years ago
Anonymous: "I'm curious as to what you actually do believe."
Not wanting to get into a dissertation myself, let me just sum it up like this.
Its not what one believes, its what they don't believe that is most provocative in life.
Here is the progression;
1) A person starts from a mentally neutral position, and as objective as possible, attempts to build a belief system. This stage naturally begins at birth.
2) A person is provided a belief system, and over time chooses to continue to reinforce the belief system, because they have "faith" in the source of the information, i.e., parent, next door neighbor, 2,000 year old book, etc. This occurs during a child's life, ages 1-6/7, for everyone. However, susceptibility to "suggestion" is possible in the entire life span, based on ones' mental state.
3) Some people bond with those they received their information from, and challenging the belief, is nothing short of challenging the bond they have. They tie their bond and their belief together, and aren't able to separate the two. When the need to continue to maintain social and psychological bonds exist, the individual will mentally reinforce the belief by repressing any information contrary to their desired reference.
4) Some people, rise above the need to co-dependently rely on social bonding for self awareness and acceptance. These people find that self care and unconditional acceptance of their self, is much more rewarding, as, without self value, nothing else matters. No one can take care of someone who isn't mentally capable of accepting the care, because they haven't found self acceptance. Once people are able to accept themselves and take care of themselves, they are much more capable of removing the bonds that hold "faith" in place. Once "faith", in another person, or object, is released, they are open to allow pent up information from the past to come forth, so they can honestly assess the information, and weigh its validity.
There are a myriad of places where a person could be in this process. Some, start out without being given information that is contrary to their natural instinct, and against basic reasoning. These people don't suffer from the psychological abuse that some others do. However, those who are not directly affected, are still subjected to those on this planet who were/are mentally abused, and have to deal with disharmony.
Those who seem locked up, and unable to mentally release themselves of unnecessary information, which creates their frame of reference are part of stage three. There are people, who are just too scared, of allowing their own mind to wander the universe, without being "anchored" to something. We all have a reference point, but each person that has finally found mental freedom, has done so, by finding themselves unanchored at one point in their life and able to let go. Some do this as children, and others as adults.
You ask for a persons' belief, but that isn't even the important question. The important question; can a person arrive at self-truth, or do they require another person to assist them. A person should come to their belief, from their own personal experience, and listening to someone else say something is true, does not equate to personal "experience".
Parts of the bible were written 2,000+ years ago, it is currently not possible to "experience" any of the events that "may" have transpired in the bible. If experience is an epistemological factor for truth, then using a timeline as a dimensional reference, its understood that the most important part of peoples' lives, is realized every second of every moment based on a persons' self awarness - carpe diem. The further away from "this moment" a person lives, the less objectivity and thus, truth.
Five minutes ago, I started this post, and it is still fresh in my mind, and I can recall that experience and place great confidence in the fact that I was typing. However, going back 2,000+ years, is so far removed from my reality, that it would be dishonest to place high levels of confidence in that information, unless there were empirical/physical evidence, I could experience in the "here and now", to make an assessment.
Thus, is the great problem with Jesus, god, etc., there is zero evidence. By definition, we can not live in this natural reality, and ever have an experience with a metaphysically transcendent god, living in a transcendent and supernaturally objective reality. Furthermore, regarding a Jesus, an "autobiography" would be much more worthy of evidence, than a "biography", that has been subjected to tampering, numerous translations, and moved around the world, changing with the political climate.
You ask for a belief, and for many, its a belief, in the personal experience of the here and now. Others, attempt to live their lives, based on someone elses' accounts of yesteryear, someone, I might add that they never knew.
DH
· 3 years ago
A couple of posts back “Anonymous” asked what it was that I believed. Does one have to believe something religious? I don’t think so. Been there, tried that! Instead, I prefer to align myself more closely with those broad statements that define a positive, here-and-now look at life. The organized humanists have done a pretty good job of articulating those ideals (http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/ ) and I generally agree with what has been put forth in the Humanist Manifestos I, II and III (note that I didn’t say I “believed” in them). You also made passing reference to the legalism I encountered in the church (“Life doesn't have to be lived with such strict guidelines.”) While I think I made it clear that I found many of those legalistic “dos” and “don’ts” troubling, confusing and in many cases ridiculous, a careful reading of the essay should convince anybody that my reasons for abandoning Christianity were far more substantive than simply reacting to these petty rules. Which brings me to your last thought, “I truly do hope you find your way back to Jesus.” You apparently didn’t read the essay very well. Why I would want to abandon the peace and joy I’ve found since my dis-conversion is beyond me. Why I would want ever again to dedicate my life to the mythological person named Jesus is even more mystifying. Each year there is more and more evidence appearing that makes the Christian and Jewish histories less credible. Even though head-in-the-sand fundamentalists believe otherwise, the creation claims of the Bible are looking more preposterous with each passing day. Many of the teachings of the church are psychologically unhealthy and, frankly, false. The “wonder-working power” of the gospel isn’t there as promised. If it was such a great thing, then why, after 2,000 years, hasn’t it transformed the world? Why aren’t people flocking to churches like thirsty people after water? One of the previous posters commented that he was raised a Seventh Day Adventist. I’ve read that this denomination is the only one in America (so far) that can boast that it has more living FORMER members than there are living current members! The church as a whole is having a much more difficult time of justifying its existence. I’m glad to be rid of the whole mess!
Warty Mammal
· 3 years ago
Yours is a touching, well-written story. Thank you for sharing it.
DH
· 3 years ago
I’ve stated above that, contrary to the claims of Christians, the Christian life is neither a peaceful nor a happy way to live. Below I quote an extreme example from a radio broadcast by “Brother” David Terrell, a fundamentalist evangelist who is still selling his brand of religion. Speaking as a self-proclaimed apostle of the Lord, Terrell delivers a message from God himself: “I shall smite ye with insanity. I shall smite ye with violence. I shall smite ye in your knees. I shall smite ye in your elbows. I shall smite ye in your shoulders. I shall smite ye in your bones... and man shall see diseases that medical science has not been able to diagnose. For the earth is fixin’ to be cursed with a curse. They that robbed me in America is fixin’ to be cursed. I’m fixin’ to make the rich be eaten. I’m fixin’ to eat the rich... There’s fixin’ to be a frog epidemic in Florida, like in the time of Moses. Two toads can produce 25,000 frogs a year so there can be millions in a square mile. Right now there’s a plague has hit this nation. Minnesota is being eaten up by caterpillars, and Canada is five inches deep in caterpillars. Beetles are coming across Mexico and headed this way. In Georgia, hail is eight inches thick. Automobiles have been beat to a total loss.” Brother Terrell urged his listeners to deny the flesh and to fast often. “Moan, my people. Moan until your bowels feel like they are going to burst in you. Moan until your voices are hoarse. Moan until you hurt in your chest... Cry until you weep, fast until you weep.... Let me hear the cry, the cry for renewal, or I’ll rip you apart.... Rapha, nissi, handa bahayah, lamaricosayahilatarisaya honodabbabayaya bokokori....” (Quoted from the fun-to-read book “Border Radio” by Gene Fowler & Bill Crawford, Austin: U of Texas Press, 2002, page 318.)
Even more sedate Christians extol the virtues of suffering, especially the evangelicals and Catholics. They also talk about doomsday, the battle of Armageddon, and all sorts of punishment God has in store for all of us. It isn’t a healthy lifestyle, a point forcefully developed by Wendell W. Watters, M.D., in his book “Deadly Doctrine: Health, Illness and Christian God-Talk” (Buffalo: Prometheus, 1992).
Arthur
· 3 years ago
In the end you have to ask the question, "what is truth?" "Is there truth?" If there is no truth, then everything you wrote is absolutely right on the money. However, if truth is found in God then you've departed from the only source of truth there is.
pc93
· 3 years ago
What is truth and what is belief? In the end does it really matter? Enjoy LIFE and create a better world for all present and future generations. And in regards to "God" there are many thousands,. of different names, words,. for ALL THAT IS,. To some ALL THAT IS or "God" is just an empty abstraction. I believe that you cannot go outside of ALL THAT IS and that we are all autonomous but dependent/inseparable parts of THAT WHICH IS. And DH it was a pleasant surprise to find you once again on the net. I can be contacted at pc9323@gmail.com. I need to get your cell number. Your friend, Juan (aka PC93).
Anonymous
· 3 years ago
I am a sister of DH and simply want to affirm the truth of his "Letting It All Go" entry. DH is ten years younger than me, hence we weren't living in the same house for very many years, but the family and church background he describes is very accurate and my husband and I can affirm the veracity of most of his adult experiences. I'm responding to Petrie and any others that might call his work fictional or elaborated. It's not! Incidentally I'm not writing at his urging--he doesn't even know that I've read his account (my sister shared it with me; he didn't).
Michael J. Ray
· 3 years ago
Hey DH,
This will probably make me the "target", however, that doesn't matter. I appreciate your honesty. My personal experiences are different that yours. I should get equal time, right? In my years I have seen the fraudulent preachers, and also the real thing. In fact, I have seen people fake miracles, which made me not go that particulat church anymore. The fakers make me sick in my stomach to the point of vomiting. However, I have seen and experienced firsthand the real thing. If anyone hates "bullshit", I am first in line. People who fake miracles and just go into the ministry just for the money and the show should be locked up and or struck dead. I am not going to debate you, but I have been healed miraculously of two incurable diseases. One being Ulcerative Colitis, and the other being Rheumatoid Arthritis, and both of those ailments are documented by doctors and the hospital in my area. I am not saying that God does things like that all of the time, but He did something for me personally. Explain away my phenominal health for a man born in 1952.
I would strongly encourage you in spite of all you went through to come back to The Lord Jesus Christ. Like it or not, He is who He is, and it is just flawed,imperfect mankind that makes Him look bad. [excuse my being redundant]. Very Truly Yours, Michael J. <a href="mailto:Ray michaeljray2001@yahoo.com">Ray michaeljray2001@yahoo.com is my email address
boomSLANG
· 3 years ago
The only difference between the fraudulent preachers and the so-called "real thing" are the fraudulent ones got too greedy, too soon, and therefore, became too sloppy...and then?...THEN they got exposed.
BTW, a "miracle" is not the occurance of something that's merely improbable..i.e..the vanishing of an ailment, or tumor, etc. "My grandpappy's jock itch cleared up!" No, a miracle would be when something happens that defies physics..i.e..the regenerating of an amputated limb; someone coming back to life AFTER an autopsy; an anticephalic baby growing a brain.
I would strongly encourage you, in spite of all the religious programming you've been through, to come back to yourself, the rationally thinking Atheist whom you where born.
God 'less.
Shannon
· 3 years ago
Michael,
Let’s see, the miraculous part of surviving Ulcerative Colitis is getting to live. So, living: good; death: bad. So, it was in your god’s good grace to allow you to survive your illness and if surviving (living) is good then what of those who died of your illness? Were they less pious or less worthy of your god’s good grace than you? If not, then getting to live is not anymore graceful than getting to die.
You have no miracle.
uzza
· 1 year ago
I have heard a women speak in Spanish.i know her and It was the spirit speaking through her. She spoke clearly and with proper grammar and it was from Spain not fake. She spoke with authority that she has never spoke with before. The authority from God. You all say you were Christians. It sounds like you followed some preacher or some teacher and he wasn't truly following God. So you fell follow the blind, The blind leading the blind. That proves that man is faulty. Search for truth with all your heart and you find your self at the feet of the lord. Search science. Search yourself. When you started this blog you told us about these great burdens you held. The bible says that In Philippians 2:12,13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. You where so much trying to be good but you don't realize that when you truly have a friendship with God that he makes you good. He removes That bad stuff, as you allow him to. I think you might pick up that bible and really read it. The only truth you know is what you have actually seen ,actually heard, and actually felt and actually tasted. Ask God to reveal himself to you through your senses and you will see wonders.
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
Hey "Uzza",
By chance, did that lady who spoke with proper grammar from "Spain" happen to go by the name, "Seeking Truth and Peace"? 'Just curious.
Astreja
· 1 year ago
Uzza: "I have heard a women speak in Spanish..."
What a coincidence... So have I. It's a fairly popular language. Your remarks indicate that you know it well enough to recognize proper Spanish grammar. But are you trying to tell us that some other woman speaking Spanish to you is somehow extraordinary?
"...The authority from God."
¿Que? Oh, that invisible being some people believe in. Got any proof that it actually exists?
"Search for truth with all your heart..."
You know, that's mighty arrogant of you to assume that we didn't search for truth with all our hearts. How very, um, Christian of you.
"The bible says that..."
The Bible is primitive, superstitious crap.
"You don't realize that when you truly have a friendship with God that he makes you good."
More crap. People who want to become good people have the potential to do so. There is no Holy Spirit magically making good individuals out of bad ones.
"I think you might pick up that bible and really read it."
I think you might stuff that Bible up your self-righteous, superstitious ass. What's your definition of "really" reading it, anyway -- Agreeing with *your* understanding of the book?
"Ask God to reveal himself to you through your senses and you will see wonders."
We've been there and done that. Didn't work. Therefore, either your god doesn't want to reveal itself to us... Or it never existed, and those "wonders" are coming from your own powers of imagination. (I, Myself, favour the latter theory.)
Your preaching is not wanted here. Go away.
SamiB
· 1 year ago
DH thank you for a very interesting post, you've certainly sparked some debate.
uzza and michael J I find your posts incredibly patronising and hopelessly misguided. Your blind faith is a mental disease, we are the sane ones.
It is a pity that you cannot experience the full richness of life without depending on your imaginary friend, you obviously aren't strong enough as individuals to stand on your own.
Remember the book you live by was written and rewritten by MEN. It is a novel, nothing more nothing less.
And as for speaking in tongues, I guess when enough fantasists get together it's easy to get swept up into mass hysteria. Pity you people don't put your energies into something more constructive. Like, I don't know, visiting a psychologist!
TheRedMan
· 1 year ago
DH
I am a Christian (Pentecostal, Assemblies of God, woot). I won't take up you're time with preaching or telling you of the prayers I'll be saying for you or tell you how much I hope you'll come back to Jesus. Not that I'm against such things, but you've obviously heard your fair share of it. However, I will take some time to defend the faith that I care so much about.
I am a pastor's son which some may say gives me a bias point of view. And no, I am not a "Jesus clone/drone", I have had the opportunity to choose my own faith and have done so. The idea that a family could force someone to believe something for 16 years when he has had the influence of all his peers to deal with (most of whom either believe in no God, or could care less about him if he does exist) is ridiculous.
I've got to admit you did a lot more searching looking for the right "brand" of Christianity than I would have. But perhaps that was the problem all along. Perhaps all this time while you were looking for a brand of Christianity that had all the answers, you failed to see that perhaps no such brand exists. After all, even the early church that all modern churches sprouted from had problems, otherwise there would be no need for most of Paul's letters. Some might say that this destroys the credibility of Christianity; I say instead that it shows the ridiculousness of the rules of men. Think about it for a moment, in the New Testament Jesus spoke against the Pharisees, people who used their religious power to enforce man made laws. The laws of the Pharisees were fraud, not the laws of God. Similarly, perhaps the teaching of certain religious men are false, not the teachings of Jesus. Just throwing the idea out there.
And oh, no one ever promised me that Christianity was going to be a perfectly happy life with no problems. If life was that way why would the Christian religion have a heaven? However, having strayed from God before, and obviously knowing many people who aren't Christians, I wouldn't say my life is any unhappier than it would be otherwise.
When it comes to speaking in tongues I have both seen and experienced the real and the fake thing. I won't be brash enough to suggest weather or not you've experienced the real thing, but as someone who has, I can say with absolute confidence that I could not do it on my own. (I've tried) Speaking in tongues and speaking gibberish are two different things.
Pc93 claimed that truth doesn't matter. I hope that I don't have to take too much time on this. Truth is, in fact, all that matters. Even atheists, or agnostics, or whatever you label yourself as, can't argue with this. An atheist is an atheist because they believe the TRUTH to be that there is no God. An agnostic is unsure of their faith, but still believes in some way or another that there is truth. Try testing the truth of gravity and then tell me truth doesn't matter.
Boomslanger stated "The only difference between the fraudulent preachers and the so-called "real thing" are the fraudulent ones got too greedy, too soon, and therefore, became too sloppy...and then?...THEN they got exposed." Ha ha, if only it was true that most pastors benefit so greatly from their ministry. Let me ask you something, have you ever actually seen the paycheck of a preacher? My father has been a senior pastor for about 20 years and we have financial issues like everyone else. Just this year he volunteered for a pay cut, in order to help out church, and I know several other pastors who have done the same. Giving away money for nothing in return; greedy? I don't think so. Obviously there are the fakes who are just out there for the money they may of may not find in the big tents, and those men and women are deplorable. Their practices make me sick. It is one thing to not believe in Jesus, but to preach what you believe to be a lie is beyond wrong.
Shannon, you suggested that God chooses who gets miraculously healed based on their worthiness. I would like to explain why this claim is not supported by the Christian faith. For a moment, assume with me that God does exist and that Christianity is true. God will not force himself on anyone; he will not work in you if you do not come to him. Obviously, an atheist does not come to God for healing, so they cannot experience the healing that can come with it. Now obviously Christians die, however, assuming that Christianity is true, they will go to heaven, so them dieing is in fact not a bad thing at all. So, according to Christianity, many people take it out of God's hands and some of those who don't get to be in eternal peace.
Astreja, I believe Uzza was talking about a woman who doesn't know Spanish, but then spoke it through the spirit. You probably assumed this, but I was just making sure. I have also seen this and similar events.
SamiB, you said that the Bible was a book written by men, and therefore just a novel. However, lets look at the works of literature that many people put there faith in daily. The Constitution, The Bill of Rights, the laws of all nations, manuals on operating anything from computers to cars, and even the books and scientific journals that claim evolution to be true. I don't deny your right to question the Christian faith; I welcome it because such questions expose the fakes. But please, don’t question it on the basis that the Bible is written by men when in fact you yourself base your life around works written by men.
I didn't think that I would have to do this but it seems that I am forced to also defend the intelligence of Christians. Obviously, there are several people here who consider their intelligence to be above that of Christians solely on the fact that Christians believe in a God that you cannot necessarily see. In doing so, these people have put themselves above such figures as Benjamin Franklin, Franklin Roosevelt, Teddy Roosevelt, Isaac Newton, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John F. Kennedy, and many, many more. All of these figures believed in a God in some form. I don't think I need explain my reasoning here.
DH, I actually do have some answers for the concerns your expressed about inconsistencies concerning the old testament law and such, but I won't get into that mainly because this is already long enough.
When it really comes down to it I have put my faith in Christ because I've seen my life without him. I don't put it in the doctrine of others, or the experience of others. Honestly DH, I applaud you in that you have tried so hard to find the truth, you and I just seem to have disagreements on what that truth is.
I look forward to seeing what some of you have to say in response to this. I only ask that you show me the same courtesy that I have showed you and refrain from the personal attacks.
Chow
Jim Arvo
· 1 year ago
TheRedMan said "Speaking in tongues and speaking gibberish are two different things."
Please elaborate. How do you tell the difference? Given how ubiquitous digital cameras and voice recorders are these days, there are no doubt hundreds (perhaps thousands) of cases of speaking in tongues that have been recorded by dispassionate observers, right? Can you point us to some?
SamiB
· 1 year ago
Redman: I totally understand your side of the debate but I still do not agree with you.
We have no idea what the original 'bible' contained, it is something that has been rewritten over and over again in order to suit whatever ruling ideology of that time wanted people to believe. It has been used to control and to instill fear in the masses and is still being used as such today. We know for a fact that the current bible, in all it's manifestations, bears little resemblance to its original form. It tells a story, but how can anyone give that story any credence without questioning who wrote it and why it was written.
You mention the constitution and the law as works of literature. I don't disagree. However I do not blindly accept our laws nor do I respect all of them. How can a state that makes homosexuality illegal by law be right?
When I read a manual it is in order to learn how something works. It certainly doesn't effect the way I live. I think likening the bible to a DVD manual is stretching it a bit.
When you say I live my life based around works written by men, I would argue that I live my life SURROUNDED by works written by men but I certainly do not obey or believe anything with blind faith.
I am a questioner, I have a strong sense of self, I respect others and their opinions but I loath bullies. No one tells me what to believe in, and having come from a christian schooling background, that probably explains why I feel so passionately about indoctrination of any kind.
Astreja
· 1 year ago
TheRedMan: "An atheist is an atheist because they believe the TRUTH to be that there is no God."
Small correction: There is weak atheism and there is strong atheism. A strong atheist would assert "There are no gods", whereas a weak atheist would tend to say "I see no evidence for the existence of gods and am inclined to think that they don't exist."
And agnosticism is not about wavering faith. It's a philosophical position that ultimate truth is unknowable. I like to use the example of someone meeting a god in person. How do we go about verifying the divine credentials of this entity? How does one actually distinguish between advanced technology and divine magic?
And who's to say that there isn't an even more powerful being out there? Ultimately the problem of the existence of gods succumbs to the problem of infinite regress.
Regarding the god of the Bible in particular, and omnipotent gods in general, I am a weak atheist. Regarding the possibility of non-omnipotent gods, I am an agnostic theist. Regarding mundane physical issues such as gravity, I tend towards naturalism and pragmatism.
"Astreja, I believe Uzza was talking about a woman who doesn't know Spanish, but then spoke it through the spirit. You probably assumed this, but I was just making sure. I have also seen this and similar events."
Yes, that's how I interpreted it as well. The problem lies in confirming that the woman had no knowledge of Spanish before this event. I'm concerned that it could have been a scam intended to impress and deceive.
.:webmaster:.
· 1 year ago
theredman wrote,"After all, even the early church that all modern churches sprouted from had problems, otherwise there would be no need for most of Paul's letters."
Problems? That's for sure. Too bad Jesus couldn't keep control of things himself and needed Paul to help out.
Yeah, if it weren't for Paul, there'd be no Christianity at all! I mean, no one could launch a real religion on just the Gospel accounts.
djteel
· 1 year ago
sometime in your life you began to look at the logical and explainable(or unexplainable)/ .we believe by faith.not by sight.. i have come across many things in the bible i still wonder about.but the truth of god has been shown to me and so i know the unexplainable is explainable somehow. //i'm not giving up my home with god based on unbelief caused by the unexplainable. god knows the unexplainable is there..why else would we be expected to believe only by faith?? ********************** i feel sorry for you.with all the prophecy pointing to this being the end times it makes sense that many are falling or parting from the christian faith..actually you're part of last days prophecy//.believe it or not!
Philip
· 1 year ago
"we believe by faith.not by sight.. ... but the truth of god has been shown to me"
Care to explain?
AtheistToothFairy
· 1 year ago
djteel:god knows the unexplainable is there..why else would we be expected to believe only by faith
djteel,
Oh wait, I think I know this answer to this question.
We are expected (required?) to believe only with 'faith', because the bible writings, had it's source solely within the imagination of ancient men.
If it had been from reality instead, the authors would have had something credible to point at, to justify their beliefs. Alas, they had the same type evidence in those days as we do today, which are, deceptive [magic] tricks and some high-strung-emotions, all glued together with a malicious punishment deterrent and an unsubstantiated hope of this god saving your sorry ass.
It's amazing the cruel mind-games one can play on others, if you can control their actions using a combination of fear and hope.
If god were real, every person who ever lived or is living today, wouldn't need blind faith to know he is. It would be as obvious as the earth beneath your feet to us. The reason your xtian clans make excuses for god needing to hide from us, is because an imaginary concept (god) can never show itself to be part of our reality.
Don't feel sorry for us, for it is us that once walked in your deluded shoes but found the secret tunnel (intelligence) out of that god prison.
ATF (Who knows this earth will last a very long time, if the religious nut jobs don't force its destruction, in order to fulfill some soothsayers false prophecies)
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
'Can't let this "gem" go...
with all the prophecy pointing to this being the end times it makes sense that many are falling or parting from the christian faith..actually you're part of last days prophecy//.believe it or not!
You evidently don't see the circularity in your "prophecy" concept, do you?(rhetorically asked) Think. If it weren't for the "many" who are "falling away", your biblegod's "prophecy" would have failed. The implication, in case you still don't see it, is that if your biblegod knew/knows the future, then "free will" is out the window; those who deny Christ are every bit as integral to "His Plan" as those who don't. 'Ouch!
Gawd Bless us Heathens!
micheleulriksen
· 1 year ago
Hi DH,
What a great and captivating story. I read it last year when you sent me the link but never posted a response. I just tried to email you to let you know that the book I wrote about my experience in an unlicensed/unregulated fundamentalist Baptist reform school is about to be published this fall. You had written to me and expressed interest.
Ginger, Ginger, Ginger... Where do we start with you?
Does your purported god put people in Hell, yes or no? If yes, your god is not 'forgiving' or 'loving'.
Is your hypothetical god the one described in the Bible? If yes, then the Bible is a clear indictment of this genocidal, pestilential and filicidal maniac.
And we see no evidence for the existence of this god; neither do we see any evidence for the alleged "miracles" attributed to it. You are the one making the extraordinary claim of an invisible, intangible being performing acts that run contrary to the laws of science. *You* are the one who has to prove these things to *us*-- The burden of proof rests with the person making the affirmative claim.
By the way, Ginger, we are much happier without Christianity in our lives.
boomSLANG
· 1 year ago
Okay, I'll think about it.
...
...
Okay, done. Conclusion: Christianity is bullshit! No, wait........it's bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ginger
· 1 year ago
Frist of all you can't put all christians in one catogory and second of all miracles signs and wonders are real weather you beileve it or not and thirdly God doesn't need your opinion, approvel, or consent for anything! he's GOD!!! that's right he's greater stronger better higher! then any human on this earth my God is a loving God a graceious God a forgiving God so I don't know what the heck kind of God your talking about cause my God is a loving God and he dosen't kill people or not care so you can beileve what you want! you might of turned your back on Christ but he will never turn his back on you cuase he's God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So realise that and think about what i just said!
sconnor
· 1 year ago
ginger,
You could have used some more exclamation points -- what a douche-bag.
--S.
glebealyth
· 1 year ago
sconnor,
Ginger is not useful enough to be a douche-bag, I suspect.
Ginger
· 1 year ago
Jesus love's you no matter what and he's waiting at the door knocking are you going to let him in or not! oh what a mistake who could ever live with Jesus and God i don't know how you get through your days with out him how sad!
sconnor
· 1 year ago
ginger,
Making extraordinary, unsubstantiated, claims about god and Jesus based on your particular, interpretations, of scripture is, absurd and delusional. You must first prove the bible is the word of god, then you have to prove your interpretation of scripture is the one and only correct, interpretation, of scripture.
Unfortunately, at the end of the day -- like other christian sects -- you can not substantiate your extraordinary claims. As of now, you are on equal footing with (as one example) Jehovah Witnesses, who make their own very different, unsubstantiated, extraordinary claims, about the nature of god, Jesus and the afterlife, based, only, on interpretation of scripture and speculative imagination, exactly, the way you do. Face it ginger, you are wallowing in delusion and you exude gullibility.
--S.
AtheistToothFairy
· 1 year ago
Well Ginger, what's this 'knocking at my door' god bringing me for dinner? I'm a bit picky in my taste of heavenly food.
But seriously, getting through my days got a whole lot easier once I realized the world of the metaphysical didn't exits, and that there was no bible god hiding out there somewhere, as you xtians kept telling me for many decades.
Praying to god makes YOU feel better, but solely from the act of praying alone, as not one of your prayers has ever been answered by this god. However, I'm sure you think they have been answered, because you WISH them to be.
One last item, could you please tell us your level of secular education, or were you home-schooled instead?
ATF (Who wonders how one can "turn their back on christ", if christ is everywhere?)
buffettphan
· 1 year ago
Oh Ginger,
I cracked up laughing when I read your post. Your lack of writing/grammar/English skills, especially knowledge of punctuation rules, is quite hilarious. Did you REALLY intend to say this?* (MY PUNCTUATION ADDED)
"....oh what a mistake! who could ever live with Jesus and God? i don't know how. you get through your days without him."
I don't make the mistake of living with Jesus and God. I do know how to accomplish this task. I simply go through my days not believing in him or his fairy tales.
Also, thank you so much for giving us permission to believe what we want. Now that you have done that, please go away. Use the time to critically read and evaluate the buybull, especially all the stories of where your "caring god" destroys/kills whole cities, town, first-borns, etc....
All Comments
That was an enjoyable and captivating read.
Thanks for sending it in!
This like saying a dedicated doctor who,"burns-out" & leaves medicine,.. was never really a physician to begin with!
D.H.,.I too can still speak in tongues ,1 year after my deconversion from the so called "spirit filled life"!
That's just stupid and petty. Yes, there needs to be an accounting process to avoid embezzlement and stuff, but a WHEELCHAIR RAMP!!
They probabally had two wheel chair ramps already in place, besides why would anyone with a handicap want to go to church? To thank god for letting them become disabled?
mq59, You're really stupid!
I just wrote in tongues!!!!!
Can I get an interpretation?
Jim Lee,....what about you?
LOL,..if no one does,... I'll interpret it later!
Meaning; that whoever should believe in such shit must be totally insane. A-men?
How would we know how much of this even happened?
Are we supposed to take your word for it?
After all, you obviously despise Christianity, so are we to assume you are being up front and objective.
Maybe, but I suppose you want us to take that on faith!
You don't have to believe the poster. If you doubt him, you'll not be condemned to hell, you'll not be considered back-slidden or living in rebellion, or accused of wanting to live in religious lust.
You have every right to doubt his story.
Have a nice day.
Up front and more objective than any christian site!
Not wanting to come accross as Mr. Obvious, but, if one wanted, I am sure they could interview this persons' family, friends, and many other empirically founded aspects of this story.
Many people, have lived aspects of this persons' testimony if not the majority to some degree. Tis', why the testimony makes that much more sense, people can take their "empirically" founded personal experience, and relate the life experience to this testimony.
Petrie: "Are we supposed to take your word for it?"
Not at all, use your own life experience to see connections and relationships, read a few scientific or peer reviewed journals, and most of all; if you really cared, do a little personal research to test the validity of some of the statements. I know this isn't the preferred method for the intellectually lazy, but then, the intellectually lazy shouldn't question the validity of anything in regards to matters of logic, they can just rely on pure "faith". Perhaps, you have "faith" that this persons' testimony is not genuine, but, that comes from one who is intellectually lazy, and well, many will weigh your words accordingly.
Petrie: "After all, you obviously despise Christianity, so are we to assume you are being up front and objective."
For those who have had similar experiences, there are little to no assumptions. However, if you have not had such experiences, then you can freely go do some homework. If you want to remain, intellectually lazy, then there is always the religious bloggs you can hop aboard on, and say whatever you want, because there is no ability to validate metaphysical claims. Hey, you can create your own personal god, and an entirely different universe in a different reality, enjoy yourself, bye.
Petrie: "Maybe, but I suppose you want us to take that on faith!"
Nope, I'd advise on never taking anything on "faith" alone. Its unfortunate, that many of us on this site, have "physically" witnesed first hand, similar events in our lives - and, you obviously haven't. So, many here, can "empathize" with the testimony, based on first-hand experience(s). This site is a support for those who have had similar/like experiences, and apparently there are enough people who can relate to the testimony, obviously with the exception of you. Hence, why some here seem to belong here, and then, you don't.
If you can't empathize because you lack experience & knowledge, might I suggest you take the time to gain some of that, before presenting yourself as a yokel [sic] in an open public venue. Your rustic logic, persuades me to feel embarassed for you - but, I'll get over it, I hope you do too.
What I was trying to point out, perhaps too subtlety, is that Petrie's comment of "taking your story on faith," in an apparent attempt to compare your story with Biblical accounts, is a flawed analogy. Unlike the threats of damnation and promises of "glory divine" woven into Christian rhetoric, whether one believes your story or not, there are no imaginary repercussions or rewards looming in the background.
In other words, there is no obvious personal gain to be had from the sharing of or believing of your most excellently written story, other than perhaps some satisfaction in knowing that you've encouraged someone else who is escaping, or trying to escape, the cultic clutches of Christianity.
I would guess that Petrie chooses to believe Biblical stories because it makes Petrie feel good and promises Petrie rich rewards on Mt. Olympus, or wherever, after Petrie dies.
Conversely, your story simply offers a glimpse of ordinary reality. Unfortunately, fantastic fantasy is what many people prefer.
It seems to me your personal essay had the unforseen result of making Petrie uncomfortable and nervous. For that, you have my applause.
Petrie, just for your further edification, Santa Clause is also a myth.
Oh, and I can still speak fluently in tongues too. Now I call it baby talk.
DH, good to see you on the site, and great post. The WM said it best, your most excellently written testimony seems to have sparked a nerve in some of the less grounded in reality ;-)
Regarding Petrie, et al., you will see them from time to time posting comments which seem to have little focus on a testimony, and at first glance seem loutish [sic], disingenuine, and brazenly with no real focus.
However doltish their comment(s) seem, they do have an agenda. They consider Atheism to be a threat, to their way of life.
Now, I know, that there are many people who regularly visit this site, and do not claim to be Atheists. However, our little buddy(ies), really don't care, as they still view this site as a haven for Atheists, and the testimonies presented as support for the Atheist movement, regardless of the testimony authors' intent. So, its not personal, they pretty much attack each testimony the same, with marginalizing, or using some form of diversion tactic. To them, the author and their testimony is justified collateral damage, in the effort to combat Atheism. The WM does a great job of scrubbing their posts, when they get out of hand.
Petrie, et al., target anything that appears to be leading up to a unified effort. As long as they can keep everyone in turmoil, they can prevent any unified effort from advancing, no matter what the effort would be. I will say, however, the effort presented on this site per the WM's intent, is to bring people together to share their experiences, and to talk to others who have had similar experiences, in order to; vent, gain emotional support, and generally gain information from those who may have had similar experiences.
The unified effort on this site, is to expose some of the ills that religion brings to humanity; typically, from an ex-christian perspective. From that common theme, Petrie, et al., wants to prevent any "further" unified effort from going forth. Thus, they interject themselves into any conversation that seems to be headed that way.
One of the favorite methods, is to immediately shift the conversation to politics. Or, more recently, to assume the position of a regular on this site, and launch attacks against other regulars in an attempt to create disharmony and disunity.
Its part of their strategy, as long as there isn't a unified effort, and they can keep everyone running in mental circles, our little buddy(ies), feel they are being effective in their endeavors.
They really aren't that intelligent, but can be annoying at times, their tactics are sorely transparent, but I suspect that they actually believe they are covertly operating out in the open, with no one the wiser. Thus, is their intellectual mediocrity.
Anyway, enjoyed your post, keep up the good fight, take care...
The fact that they are no longer Jesus clones/drones is what makes them special.Your blessing
is sort of uncalled for here,...but
your curiousity is always welcome!
peace,...freedy
Not wanting to get into a dissertation myself, let me just sum it up like this.
Its not what one believes, its what they don't believe that is most provocative in life.
Here is the progression;
1) A person starts from a mentally neutral position, and as objective as possible, attempts to build a belief system. This stage naturally begins at birth.
2) A person is provided a belief system, and over time chooses to continue to reinforce the belief system, because they have "faith" in the source of the information, i.e., parent, next door neighbor, 2,000 year old book, etc. This occurs during a child's life, ages 1-6/7, for everyone. However, susceptibility to "suggestion" is possible in the entire life span, based on ones' mental state.
3) Some people bond with those they received their information from, and challenging the belief, is nothing short of challenging the bond they have. They tie their bond and their belief together, and aren't able to separate the two. When the need to continue to maintain social and psychological bonds exist, the individual will mentally reinforce the belief by repressing any information contrary to their desired reference.
4) Some people, rise above the need to co-dependently rely on social bonding for self awareness and acceptance. These people find that self care and unconditional acceptance of their self, is much more rewarding, as, without self value, nothing else matters. No one can take care of someone who isn't mentally capable of accepting the care, because they haven't found self acceptance. Once people are able to accept themselves and take care of themselves, they are much more capable of removing the bonds that hold "faith" in place. Once "faith", in another person, or object, is released, they are open to allow pent up information from the past to come forth, so they can honestly assess the information, and weigh its validity.
There are a myriad of places where a person could be in this process. Some, start out without being given information that is contrary to their natural instinct, and against basic reasoning. These people don't suffer from the psychological abuse that some others do. However, those who are not directly affected, are still subjected to those on this planet who were/are mentally abused, and have to deal with disharmony.
Those who seem locked up, and unable to mentally release themselves of unnecessary information, which creates their frame of reference are part of stage three. There are people, who are just too scared, of allowing their own mind to wander the universe, without being "anchored" to something. We all have a reference point, but each person that has finally found mental freedom, has done so, by finding themselves unanchored at one point in their life and able to let go. Some do this as children, and others as adults.
You ask for a persons' belief, but that isn't even the important question. The important question; can a person arrive at self-truth, or do they require another person to assist them. A person should come to their belief, from their own personal experience, and listening to someone else say something is true, does not equate to personal "experience".
Parts of the bible were written 2,000+ years ago, it is currently not possible to "experience" any of the events that "may" have transpired in the bible. If experience is an epistemological factor for truth, then using a timeline as a dimensional reference, its understood that the most important part of peoples' lives, is realized every second of every moment based on a persons' self awarness - carpe diem. The further away from "this moment" a person lives, the less objectivity and thus, truth.
Five minutes ago, I started this post, and it is still fresh in my mind, and I can recall that experience and place great confidence in the fact that I was typing. However, going back 2,000+ years, is so far removed from my reality, that it would be dishonest to place high levels of confidence in that information, unless there were empirical/physical evidence, I could experience in the "here and now", to make an assessment.
Thus, is the great problem with Jesus, god, etc., there is zero evidence. By definition, we can not live in this natural reality, and ever have an experience with a metaphysically transcendent god, living in a transcendent and supernaturally objective reality. Furthermore, regarding a Jesus, an "autobiography" would be much more worthy of evidence, than a "biography", that has been subjected to tampering, numerous translations, and moved around the world, changing with the political climate.
You ask for a belief, and for many, its a belief, in the personal experience of the here and now. Others, attempt to live their lives, based on someone elses' accounts of yesteryear, someone, I might add that they never knew.
Even more sedate Christians extol the virtues of suffering, especially the evangelicals and Catholics. They also talk about doomsday, the battle of Armageddon, and all sorts of punishment God has in store for all of us. It isn’t a healthy lifestyle, a point forcefully developed by Wendell W. Watters, M.D., in his book “Deadly Doctrine: Health, Illness and Christian God-Talk” (Buffalo: Prometheus, 1992).
This will probably make me the "target", however, that doesn't matter. I appreciate your honesty. My personal experiences are different that yours. I should get equal time, right?
In my years I have seen the fraudulent preachers, and also the real thing.
In fact, I have seen people fake miracles, which made me not go that particulat church anymore. The fakers make me sick in my stomach to the point of vomiting. However, I have seen and experienced firsthand the real thing.
If anyone hates "bullshit", I am first in line. People who fake miracles and just go into the ministry just for the money and the show should be locked up and or struck dead.
I am not going to debate you, but I have been healed miraculously of two incurable diseases. One being Ulcerative Colitis, and the other being Rheumatoid Arthritis, and both of those ailments are documented by doctors and the hospital in my area. I am not saying that God does things like that all of the time, but He did something for me personally. Explain away my phenominal health for a man born in 1952.
I would strongly encourage you in spite of all you went through to come back to The Lord Jesus Christ. Like it or not, He is who He is, and it is just flawed,imperfect mankind that makes Him look bad. [excuse my being redundant].
Very Truly Yours,
Michael J. <a href="mailto:Ray
michaeljray2001@yahoo.com">Ray
michaeljray2001@yahoo.com is my email address
BTW, a "miracle" is not the occurance of something that's merely improbable..i.e..the vanishing of an ailment, or tumor, etc. "My grandpappy's jock itch cleared up!" No, a miracle would be when something happens that defies physics..i.e..the regenerating of an amputated limb; someone coming back to life AFTER an autopsy; an anticephalic baby growing a brain.
I would strongly encourage you, in spite of all the religious programming you've been through, to come back to yourself, the rationally thinking Atheist whom you where born.
God 'less.
Let’s see, the miraculous part of surviving Ulcerative Colitis is getting to live. So, living: good; death: bad. So, it was in your god’s good grace to allow you to survive your illness and if surviving (living) is good then what of those who died of your illness? Were they less pious or less worthy of your god’s good grace than you? If not, then getting to live is not anymore graceful than getting to die.
You have no miracle.
By chance, did that lady who spoke with proper grammar from "Spain" happen to go by the name, "Seeking Truth and Peace"? 'Just curious.
What a coincidence... So have I. It's a fairly popular language. Your remarks indicate that you know it well enough to recognize proper Spanish grammar. But are you trying to tell us that some other woman speaking Spanish to you is somehow extraordinary?
"...The authority from God."
¿Que? Oh, that invisible being some people believe in. Got any proof that it actually exists?
"Search for truth with all your heart..."
You know, that's mighty arrogant of you to assume that we didn't search for truth with all our hearts. How very, um, Christian of you.
"The bible says that..."
The Bible is primitive, superstitious crap.
"You don't realize that when you truly have a friendship with God that he makes you good."
More crap. People who want to become good people have the potential to do so. There is no Holy Spirit magically making good individuals out of bad ones.
"I think you might pick up that bible and really read it."
I think you might stuff that Bible up your self-righteous, superstitious ass. What's your definition of "really" reading it, anyway -- Agreeing with *your* understanding of the book?
"Ask God to reveal himself to you through your senses and you will see wonders."
We've been there and done that. Didn't work. Therefore, either your god doesn't want to reveal itself to us... Or it never existed, and those "wonders" are coming from your own powers of imagination. (I, Myself, favour the latter theory.)
Your preaching is not wanted here. Go away.
uzza and michael J I find your posts incredibly patronising and hopelessly misguided. Your blind faith is a mental disease, we are the sane ones.
It is a pity that you cannot experience the full richness of life without depending on your imaginary friend, you obviously aren't strong enough as individuals to stand on your own.
Remember the book you live by was written and rewritten by MEN. It is a novel, nothing more nothing less.
And as for speaking in tongues, I guess when enough fantasists get together it's easy to get swept up into mass hysteria. Pity you people don't put your energies into something more constructive. Like, I don't know, visiting a psychologist!
I am a Christian (Pentecostal, Assemblies of God, woot). I won't take up you're time with preaching or telling you of the prayers I'll be saying for you or tell you how much I hope you'll come back to Jesus. Not that I'm against such things, but you've obviously heard your fair share of it. However, I will take some time to defend the faith that I care so much about.
I am a pastor's son which some may say gives me a bias point of view.
And no, I am not a
"Jesus clone/drone", I have had the opportunity to choose my own faith and have done so. The idea that a family could force someone to believe something for 16 years when he has had the influence of all his peers to deal with (most of whom either believe in no God, or could care less about him if he does exist) is ridiculous.
I've got to admit you did a lot more searching looking for the right "brand" of Christianity than I would have. But perhaps that was the problem all along. Perhaps all this time while you were looking for a brand of Christianity that had all the answers, you failed to see that perhaps no such brand exists. After all, even the early church that all modern churches sprouted from had problems, otherwise there would be no need for most of Paul's letters. Some might say that this destroys the credibility of Christianity; I say instead that it shows the ridiculousness of the rules of men.
Think about it for a moment, in the New Testament Jesus spoke against the Pharisees, people who used their religious power to enforce man made laws. The laws of the Pharisees were fraud, not the laws of God. Similarly, perhaps the teaching of certain religious men are false, not the teachings of Jesus. Just throwing the idea out there.
And oh, no one ever promised me that Christianity was going to be a perfectly happy life with no problems. If life was that way why would the Christian religion have a heaven? However, having strayed from God before, and obviously knowing many people who aren't Christians, I wouldn't say my life is any unhappier than it would be otherwise.
When it comes to speaking in tongues I have both seen and experienced the real and the fake thing. I won't be brash enough to suggest weather or not you've experienced the real thing, but as someone who has, I can say with absolute confidence that I could not do it on my own. (I've tried) Speaking in tongues and speaking gibberish are two different things.
Pc93 claimed that truth doesn't matter. I hope that I don't have to take too much time on this. Truth is, in fact, all that matters. Even atheists, or agnostics, or whatever you label yourself as, can't argue with this. An atheist is an atheist because they believe the TRUTH to be that there is no God. An agnostic is unsure of their faith, but still believes in some way or another that there is truth. Try testing the truth of gravity and then tell me truth doesn't matter.
Boomslanger stated "The only difference between the fraudulent preachers and the so-called "real thing" are the fraudulent ones got too greedy, too soon, and therefore, became too sloppy...and then?...THEN they got exposed." Ha ha, if only it was true that most pastors benefit so greatly from their ministry. Let me ask you something, have you ever actually seen the paycheck of a preacher? My father has been a senior pastor for
about 20 years and we have financial issues like everyone else. Just this year he volunteered for a pay cut, in order to help out church, and I know several other pastors who have done the same. Giving away money for nothing in return; greedy? I don't think so. Obviously there are the fakes who are just out there for the money they may of may not find in the big tents, and those men and women are deplorable. Their practices make me sick. It is one thing to not believe in Jesus, but to preach what you believe to be a lie is beyond wrong.
Shannon, you suggested that God chooses who gets miraculously healed based on their worthiness.
I would like to explain why this claim is not supported by the Christian faith. For a moment, assume with me that God does exist and that Christianity is true. God will not force himself on anyone; he will not work in you if you do not come to him. Obviously, an atheist does not come to God for healing, so they cannot experience the healing that can come with it. Now obviously Christians die, however, assuming that Christianity is true, they will go to heaven, so them dieing is in fact not a bad thing at all. So, according to Christianity, many people take it out of God's hands and some of those who don't get to be in eternal peace.
Astreja, I believe Uzza was talking about a woman who doesn't know Spanish, but then spoke it through the spirit. You probably assumed this, but I was just making sure. I have also seen this and similar events.
SamiB, you said that the Bible was a book written by men, and therefore just a novel. However, lets look at the works of literature that many people put there faith in daily. The Constitution, The Bill of Rights, the laws of all nations, manuals on operating anything from computers to cars, and even the books and scientific journals that claim evolution to be true. I don't deny your right to question the Christian faith; I welcome it because such questions expose the fakes. But please, don’t question it on the basis that the Bible is written by men when in fact you yourself base your life around works written by men.
I didn't think that I would have to do this but it seems that I am forced to also defend the intelligence of Christians. Obviously, there are several people here who consider their intelligence to be above that of Christians solely on the fact that Christians believe in a God that you cannot necessarily see. In doing so, these people have put themselves above such figures as Benjamin Franklin, Franklin Roosevelt, Teddy Roosevelt, Isaac Newton, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John F. Kennedy, and many, many more. All of these figures believed in a God in some form. I don't think I need explain my reasoning here.
DH, I actually do have some answers for the concerns your expressed about inconsistencies concerning the old testament law and such, but I won't get into that mainly because this is already long enough.
When it really comes down to it I have put my faith in Christ because I've seen my life without him. I don't put it in the doctrine of others, or the experience of others. Honestly DH, I applaud you in that you have tried so hard to find the truth, you and I just seem to have disagreements on what that truth is.
I look forward to seeing what some of you have to say in response to this. I only ask that you show me the same courtesy that I have showed you and refrain from the personal attacks.
Chow
Please elaborate. How do you tell the difference? Given how ubiquitous digital cameras and voice recorders are these days, there are no doubt hundreds (perhaps thousands) of cases of speaking in tongues that have been recorded by dispassionate observers, right? Can you point us to some?
We have no idea what the original 'bible' contained, it is something that has been rewritten over and over again in order to suit whatever ruling ideology of that time wanted people to believe. It has been used to control and to instill fear in the masses and is still being used as such today. We know for a fact that the current bible, in all it's manifestations, bears little resemblance to its original form. It tells a story, but how can anyone give that story any credence without questioning who wrote it and why it was written.
You mention the constitution and the law as works of literature. I don't disagree. However I do not blindly accept our laws nor do I respect all of them. How can a state that makes homosexuality illegal by law be right?
When I read a manual it is in order to learn how something works. It certainly doesn't effect the way I live. I think likening the bible to a DVD manual is stretching it a bit.
When you say I live my life based around works written by men, I would argue that I live my life SURROUNDED by works written by men but I certainly do not obey or believe anything with blind faith.
I am a questioner, I have a strong sense of self, I respect others and their opinions but I loath bullies. No one tells me what to believe in, and having come from a christian schooling background, that probably explains why I feel so passionately about indoctrination of any kind.
Small correction: There is weak atheism and there is strong atheism. A strong atheist would assert "There are no gods", whereas a weak atheist would tend to say "I see no evidence for the existence of gods and am inclined to think that they don't exist."
And agnosticism is not about wavering faith. It's a philosophical position that ultimate truth is unknowable. I like to use the example of someone meeting a god in person. How do we go about verifying the divine credentials of this entity? How does one actually distinguish between advanced technology and divine magic?
And who's to say that there isn't an even more powerful being out there? Ultimately the problem of the existence of gods succumbs to the problem of infinite regress.
Regarding the god of the Bible in particular, and omnipotent gods in general, I am a weak atheist. Regarding the possibility of non-omnipotent gods, I am an agnostic theist. Regarding mundane physical issues such as gravity, I tend towards naturalism and pragmatism.
"Astreja, I believe Uzza was talking about a woman who doesn't know Spanish, but then spoke it through the spirit. You probably assumed this, but I was just making sure. I have also seen this and similar events."
Yes, that's how I interpreted it as well. The problem lies in confirming that the woman had no knowledge of Spanish before this event. I'm concerned that it could have been a scam intended to impress and deceive.
Problems? That's for sure. Too bad Jesus couldn't keep control of things himself and needed Paul to help out.
Sheesh! Even Peter fell into error and needed a good tongue lashing from the mighty Paul.
Yeah, if it weren't for Paul, there'd be no Christianity at all! I mean, no one could launch a real religion on just the Gospel accounts.
.we believe by faith.not by sight.. i have come across many things in the bible i still wonder about.but the truth of god has been shown to me and so i know the unexplainable is explainable somehow. //i'm not giving up my home with god based on unbelief caused by the unexplainable. god knows the unexplainable is there..why else would we be expected to believe only by faith??
**********************
i feel sorry for you.with all the prophecy pointing to this being the end times it makes sense that many are falling or parting from the christian faith..actually you're part of last days prophecy//.believe it or not!
Care to explain?
djteel,
Oh wait, I think I know this answer to this question.
We are expected (required?) to believe only with 'faith', because the bible writings, had it's source solely within the imagination of ancient men.
If it had been from reality instead, the authors would have had something credible to point at, to justify their beliefs. Alas, they had the same type evidence in those days as we do today, which are, deceptive [magic] tricks and some high-strung-emotions, all glued together with a malicious punishment deterrent and an unsubstantiated hope of this god saving your sorry ass.
It's amazing the cruel mind-games one can play on others, if you can control their actions using a combination of fear and hope.
If god were real, every person who ever lived or is living today, wouldn't need blind faith to know he is. It would be as obvious as the earth beneath your feet to us.
The reason your xtian clans make excuses for god needing to hide from us, is because an imaginary concept (god) can never show itself to be part of our reality.
Don't feel sorry for us, for it is us that once walked in your deluded shoes but found the secret tunnel (intelligence) out of that god prison.
ATF (Who knows this earth will last a very long time, if the religious nut jobs don't force its destruction, in order to fulfill some soothsayers false prophecies)
with all the prophecy pointing to this being the end times it makes sense that many are falling or parting from the christian faith..actually you're part of last days prophecy//.believe it or not!
You evidently don't see the circularity in your "prophecy" concept, do you?(rhetorically asked) Think. If it weren't for the "many" who are "falling away", your biblegod's "prophecy" would have failed. The implication, in case you still don't see it, is that if your biblegod knew/knows the future, then "free will" is out the window; those who deny Christ are every bit as integral to "His Plan" as those who don't. 'Ouch!
Gawd Bless us Heathens!
What a great and captivating story. I read it last year when you sent me the link but never posted a response. I just tried to email you to let you know that the book I wrote about my experience in an unlicensed/unregulated fundamentalist Baptist reform school is about to be published this fall. You had written to me and expressed interest.
The web site is www.ReformAtVictory.com.
When I tried to send you the email and press release, I got a delivery failure notice so I guess you changed your personal email address.
If you read this, please contact me at info@reformatvictory.com. I'd love to talk to you.
Michele Ulriksen
Does your purported god put people in Hell, yes or no? If yes, your god is not 'forgiving' or 'loving'.
Is your hypothetical god the one described in the Bible? If yes, then the Bible is a clear indictment of this genocidal, pestilential and filicidal maniac.
And we see no evidence for the existence of this god; neither do we see any evidence for the alleged "miracles" attributed to it. You are the one making the extraordinary claim of an invisible, intangible being performing acts that run contrary to the laws of science. *You* are the one who has to prove these things to *us*-- The burden of proof rests with the person making the affirmative claim.
By the way, Ginger, we are much happier without Christianity in our lives.
...
...
Okay, done. Conclusion: Christianity is bullshit! No, wait........it's bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So realise that and think about what i just said!
You could have used some more exclamation points -- what a douche-bag.
--S.
Ginger is not useful enough to be a douche-bag, I suspect.
Making extraordinary, unsubstantiated, claims about god and Jesus based on your particular, interpretations, of scripture is, absurd and delusional. You must first prove the bible is the word of god, then you have to prove your interpretation of scripture is the one and only correct, interpretation, of scripture.
Unfortunately, at the end of the day -- like other christian sects -- you can not substantiate your extraordinary claims. As of now, you are on equal footing with (as one example) Jehovah Witnesses, who make their own very different, unsubstantiated, extraordinary claims, about the nature of god, Jesus and the afterlife, based, only, on interpretation of scripture and speculative imagination, exactly, the way you do. Face it ginger, you are wallowing in delusion and you exude gullibility.
--S.
I'm a bit picky in my taste of heavenly food.
But seriously, getting through my days got a whole lot easier once I realized the world of the metaphysical didn't exits, and that there was no bible god hiding out there somewhere, as you xtians kept telling me for many decades.
Praying to god makes YOU feel better, but solely from the act of praying alone, as not one of your prayers has ever been answered by this god.
However, I'm sure you think they have been answered, because you WISH them to be.
One last item, could you please tell us your level of secular education, or were you home-schooled instead?
ATF (Who wonders how one can "turn their back on christ", if christ is everywhere?)
I cracked up laughing when I read your post. Your lack of writing/grammar/English skills, especially knowledge of punctuation rules, is quite hilarious. Did you REALLY intend to say this?* (MY PUNCTUATION ADDED)
"....oh what a mistake! who could ever live with Jesus and God? i don't know how. you get through your days without him."
I don't make the mistake of living with Jesus and God. I do know how to accomplish this task. I simply go through my days not believing in him or his fairy tales.
Also, thank you so much for giving us permission to believe what we want. Now that you have done that, please go away. Use the time to critically read and evaluate the buybull, especially all the stories of where your "caring god" destroys/kills whole cities, town, first-borns, etc....
---buffettphan
*Perhaps Ginger made a Freudian slip.... ;-)