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Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Bentley — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:56:00 -0000

If you jump off a building and say i can fly! You will for a brief moment.(like a wet fart) But you will have to face the consequences of the law of gravity. You can go through life saying "There is no God, i am accountable to no1, and i will do as i please yay!!!", But you will have to face the consequences of Gods Moral Law.(so human powered flight is possible?)

Math 5:28=140 "But so to you, whosever looks upon to lust has committed adultery her within his heart".(this would apply to men only, women excluded)

God has set aside a day where he will judge every action and every idle word of every man.(only Earthlings have days) God is not only as moral or good as your standards, He is perfect. We are all sinners (Liars, adulters of heart, if you hate some1 you are considered a murderer,(so you've never hated someone? you're exclusive to any other human that has ever existed) no matter what the value of anything u have taken that does not belong to you, that makes u a thief,(so if you've ever found a penny on the ground, you must return it to the original owner, otherwise you are a theif)

Have you always put God first,(where do you put an invisible god) Have you ever blasphemed,(like when Jesus cursed the fig tree?) Covet something?(like a soda or a pretty girl) Respect your parents,(believe the same shit as they?) keep the Sabbath holy? ),(the original Sabbath day has been lost) you have broken God's moral law, and on the day of judgement you will be found guilty.( except you, you're perfect and walk on water) Your sentence is eternity in hell where the smoke from your torment will rise forever.(but you'll be in heaven sucking Jesus's ass) You will wish to die but you wont.(an invisible soul has no feeling, no hearing, no thought, it will be ok)

Jesus spoke more about Hell than anything else. He came to warn us from the wrath that is to come. He took the punishment you deserved on the cross. Some1 else paid your fine, and the judge will now let you go free, if you repent turn from your sin, and follow Him.(Jesus is dead, it's kind of hard to follow an invisible being)
Choose this day who you will serve, the God that gave you life, or your own pleasure.(my mother give me life, so she must be god)

All of God's judgements are righteous. If a judge lets a rapist go free, he would be an evil judge.(he let Satan go free)
God does not want you to go to Hell.(but he created Hell just in case) He gave you His EVERYTHING, His only Son. Who was bruised for what you did, what more do you want? If you follow him, He will call you his son/daughter, give you a crown of life, congratulate you when your trials are over, has prepared a place for you in heaven, and reign with the Almighty God who has no obligation to give us any attention what soever. Anyone who things God is a hateful vengeful God knows NOTHING about the cross.(actually Jesus was hung on a tree)Acts 5:30

God Is.
If you dont belief the bible,(you want us to read the Bible and believe what it says???) read Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 and tell me how so many details of Jesus coming where written hundreds of yrs before He even came, right down to the soldiers gambling for his clothes.(how did people get saved before Jesus arrived)
There where over 200 prophecies of Jesus's coming in the old testament (which all came true), and over 300 in the new testament of Hell. You are staring eternity in the face.

(No I'm staring an 14 year old imbecile, who is just repeating something that he wants to believe and cannot prove one single word of what he wrote. Neither a God nor Jesus never wrote any part of the Bible, it was all written by Arabic dopehead gypsie sheep hearders)

Jesus was a bastard child born out of wedlock, whom his mother was raped by her local friendly self-elected priest, just as you've self-elected yourself as a pious self-righteous bigot!

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

boomSLANG — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:57:00 -0000

X-ian philosopher said: "If you jump off a building and say i can fly! You will for a brief moment."

Show us.

Fundy said: "But you will have to face the consequences of the law of gravity."

Don't worry....gravity's "only a theory"...like that silly evolution stuff.

Fundonymous said: "You can go through life saying 'There is no God, i am accountable to no1, and i will do as i please yay!!!'But you will have to face the consequences of Gods Moral Law."

No, I won't have to face any such thing--- I'll just dress up in a good Satan costume, then God will be powerless to come get me. lol

Fundy: "Have you ever blasphemed, Covet something?

Yes---Hello, Jesus?...your momma's so fat, when she jumps up in the air, she get's stuck! Blasphemy is a "blast-for-me". BTW, I definitely covet your creative writing skills---i wish i could right just like u...u r the bestest!

Anonym-ass said: "Respect your parents, keep the Sabbath holy? ), you have broken God's moral law, and on the day of judgement you will be found guilty."

Can you loan me your little sister for a week or two? I need a slave---someone I can take sex from when I see fit---just like the good ol' days when "God's moral law" condoned such things.

Fundonymous said "Jesus spoke more about Hell than anything else."

Are you sure you're confusing him with Lemmy?...from Motorhead? lol

Unaware fundy said: "All of God's judgements are righteous. If a judge lets a rapist go free, he would be an evil judge."

Um, okay, so your God is an "evil" God then, because he condones rape. Check your hand-book, Charlie.

Fundy: "He gave you His EVERYTHING, His only Son. Who was bruised for what you did, what more do you want?"

Whaaaa?...he payed for the sins of BILLIONS of people and got off with mere bruises? 'Better let me handle the execution next time ; )

Fundonymous said: "If you dont belief the bible, read Psalms 22 and Isaiah.. blah, blah, blah, blah, BLAAAAH..."

If you don't believe the Quran, then go read the Quran, chapter 4:20. The point is, if we "don't believe the bible", what good would it do to tell us TO READ IT!?!?

Take your presuppostional religious tripe elsewhere. You're an amateur.

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

.:webmaster:. — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 19:37:00 -0000

Some anony said: "Some 1 else paid your fine, and the judge will now let you go free, if you repent turn from your sin, and follow Him."

So, someone paid your fine, so to speak, but unless I "repent" the payment was wasted.

It looks to me like I save myself here. I repent. I save myself. I don't repent and I don't save myself.

Save yourself! Repent!

God says: LOVE ME AND REPENT, OR BURN IN MY ETERNAL TORTURE CHAMBER FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER.

Nice god you've got there. True justice. Eternal retribution for temporal offenses. And the greatest of all offenses? Failure to repent.

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Anonymous — Wed, 20 Sep 2006 19:26:00 -0000

If you jump off a building and say i can fly! You will for a brief moment. But you will have to face the consequences of the law of gravity. You can go through life saying "There is no God, i am accountable to no1, and i will do as i please yay!!!", But you will have to face the consequences of Gods Moral Law.

Math 5:28 "But so to you, whosever looks upon to lust has committed adultery her within his heart".

God has set aside a day where he will judge every action and every idle word of every man. God is not only as moral or good as your standards, He is perfect. We are all sinners (Liars, adulters of heart, if you hate some1 you are considered a murderer, no matter what the value of anything u have taken that does not belong to you, that makes u a thief, Have you always put God first, Have you ever blasphemed, Covet something? Respect your parents, keep the Sabbath holy? ), you have broken God's moral law, and on the day of judgement you will be found guilty. Your sentence is eternity in hell where the smoke from your torment will rise forever. You will wish to die but you wont.

Jesus spoke more about Hell than anything else. He came to warn us from the wrath that is to come. He took the punishment you deserved on the cross. Some1 else paid your fine, and the judge will now let you go free, if you repent turn from your sin, and follow Him.
Choose this day who you will serve, the God that gave you life, or your own pleasure.

All of God's judgements are righteous. If a judge lets a rapist go free, he would be an evil judge.
God does not want you to go to Hell. He gave you His EVERYTHING, His only Son. Who was bruised for what you did, what more do you want? If you follow him, He will call you his son/daughter, give you a crown of life, congratulate you when your trials are over, has prepared a place for you in heaven, and reign with the Almighty God who has no obligation to give us any attention what soever. Anyone who things God is a hateful vengeful God knows NOTHING about the cross.

God Is.
If you dont belief the bible, read Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 and tell me how so many details of Jesus coming where written hundreds of yrs before He even came, right down to the soldiers gambling for his clothes.
There where over 200 prophecies of Jesus's coming in the old testament (which all came true), and over 300 in the new testament of Hell. You are staring eternity in the face.

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Anonymous — Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:07:00 -0000

Yeah... Pat Robertson lol.

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

slingshot — Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:18:00 -0000

Pat Robertson can't keep his foot out of his mouth. I wonder what he'll say next? I can hardly wait...

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Anonymous — Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:04:00 -0000

You know what? I AM hurting. Hurting becaue of you Christians. Your hypocrisy makes me sick. I want to find true Christianity. But then again, if i interpret Chrtianity in my own way, i will not be considered a true Christian. Christians only consider other people Christians when they share the same beliefs. So what is... the real gospel?

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Onanite — Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:50:00 -0000

slingshot wrote:

" The other night at work I saw two christians arguing over interpretation of scripture..."

Oh you are so right slingshot! If the Pat Robertson Christian ever have their way and get rid of all of us atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Wicca’s etc. They will all turn on each other for sure.

It is so funny to watch the neo-Christians attack each other. Catholics hate Protestants, Mormons of course, like the JW's are a cult, charismatic (tongue speakers) are possessed by Satan .... blah blah blah. It never ends.

I wonder why most thinking people disavow Christianity? (snicker)

Onanite

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

slingshot — Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:54:00 -0000

The other night at work I saw two christians arguing over interpretation of scripture...

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

slingshot — Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:36:00 -0000

RD was hardly worth our time.

He admitted to seeing the disagreement within the church, does he realize that if it weren't for such disagreement among so many over such nonsense we might actually have peace on earth?

His interpretation of Matt. 23:13 could not possibly be, it contradicts itself. He suggested that Moses law was still in effect, and so by teaching said law the scribes and pharisees have "shut up the kingdom of heaven..." he then explains that the law of salvation by grace had not been established by Christ saying "it is finished..." while on the cross. If the way into heaven had not yet been established, then how would the scribes and pharisees "shut up" the kingdom? RD is also suggesting that Moses law is invalid during its own time! There would be no way into heaven whatsoever prior to Christs death on the cross, according to christian doctrine. Nobody could "shut up the kingdom of heaven..." Why would Christ say this? The next sentence showing heaven to be in the present "For ye neither go in..." is connected to the previous sentence (..."ye have shut up the kingdom of heaven against men.") by the word "For," thus showing that Christ is referring to entry into heaven in the present tense.

If RD can't handle that one, I wonder how he'd fare against the dozens or perhaps hundreds of others that I could find...

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Frank — Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:54:00 -0000

Real Deal, I guess you would rather I smother my parents in the religious lies, like you do your victims eh?

I know that you've been scrubed, but you are one pathetic little boy that never grew up mentally and cannot get that religious mind virus out of your head and you personally do not want it out of your head. You enjoy the perks of being a religious phoney, thats the reason you have latched on to a religious title, to get praise from people. RD you're one sick little boy.

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

.:webmaster:. — Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:29:00 -0000

Real Dork is dismissed.

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Frank — Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:35:00 -0000

GeeWizz RD, Lets think about this a little bit, you said:

RD..."Perks"....lol! That's what YOU think being on call 24/7 to a congrgation that depends on you to be there when they are sick, hurting, hospitalized or in Jail?

Forget the glamorous life of the jet-setting Televangelists you hear about... Im one of the vast majority of pastors who do the day to day job of caring for the flock God has entrusted in my care.
You know Funerals, Weddings, Counseling, Marital Crisis...'perks' like that.
-----------------------------------
Do you really think that something that you might say to the sick and hurting, etc. is going to make one ioda of difference to anyone on this planet? I mean seriously RD, do you? Lets be real here.

And at a funeral, what in the name of Mickey Mouse are you going to say to anyone that will change a damn thing? Nothing

Who do you think took care of the sick Indians and Eskimos long before Colombus arrived? Who spoke those sacred words of wisdom and healing to the sick and inflicted. Where was the wonderful RD and the bible god?

If you think that something that you can conjer up from your weak mind and say something is going make a bit of difference in someones life or here-after, Baby I got a suprize shocker for you.

Real Deal, do you really honestly think, now think that you possess a power, a gift, a godly knowledge, a godly presence, above anyone else that is living today?

I'm so sure you do, and many others just like you, this is down right scary to think that another person carries a gift bestowed to them directly by an imaginary god.

And a slap in the face of my parents, YES for having falling for the foolishness of the man made religion and putting an imaginary god before everything that they stand for, including their own common sence and security.
I can tell you right now that someone could come to their door and profess to be a christian, and they woukd let them in, then they could come in and cut their throats, but it's was god's holy will, that he needed them to hold up a Star.

I also got tired of pretending that I Love Jesus, I do not love jesus, I do not love anything that pompas fool stood for either, im not even convinced a Jesus ever existed, he has no power, except to deceive and allow people to be killed in his stinking name.

I'd like to physically slap the common sense in them that they lost by turning over their complete mind over to a self-claimed, self-appointed, self-elected, preacher just like you RD, and reality in truth comes across as a threat and as hate to you and them, because it exposes you and your ilk.

What do you think a bunch of mumbo-jumbo words are going to do?

Listen my dear RD, why do you happen to think that the Bible came out of the Middle East? Think RD, Think !

Because of the Poppy Fields.... what was sooo special in the Middle East that happened 2000 years ago that God chose that region of all places in the entire 360' world? think RD

OPIUM OPIUM OPIUM there were millions of other peoples elsewhere on the planet, why did God choose opiumheads why why why?

I'm sorry RD to inform you, but you've been had, you have been the brunt of the biggest scam, hoax, joke, fraud, ever to have been pulled on the entire world.

Unfortunately RD you do not want to believe that you've been scammed, and worse yet you will continue to perpetrate and smear this joke and hoax to other unsuspecting and trusting fools just like you have been. I know that real truth hurts, Truth feels like hate, because it goes against your brainwashing beliefs, we've all here been there and done that.

We've all here pretended that we were on a mission from God just like you're doing RD.

You live in a make believe world Real Deal, and one day you'll come back here and apologise for being so self-centered and self-glorifing. It's all about you RD, not any god, it's what you can do for RD.

RD you're a word peddler, you peddle words, to those that want to hear, you are a false prophet of words. Clear your brain RD.

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Real Appeal — Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:00:00 -0000

RD: "God has entrusted in my care."

Your personal god icon (which is different from every other persons' mentally constructed god you encounter) has nothing to do, with people seeking you for help. People come to you, because they have "faith" in you, and that you will take care of their needs.

Some just don't have as much "faith" in those who are uneducated and incapable of just being human - you appear to want to make yourself more than just a mere mortal and for your own purposes.

Someone who needs that much control, and with as you show, so much pride, is likely to not even blink if pushed to "sacrifice" a few sheep in the name of self-defined religious progress.

In short, I'd have much more confidence in a person, who doesn't claim to know everything but is willing to search for the best answer, even if resolving to eclectic information, as opposed to someone who uses the "god" tool to answer the tough questions in life. Read Deal, I think you are the real deal, you personify exactly what I would expect if I were to walk into a youth miniters' office and ask a question. Pointing to a piece of paper on the wall, does not make you wise, nor educated. However, you minister to those who believe you are both wise and educated. For your sake, you'd better hope they don't see you on this blog and connect the dots.

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

freeman — Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:49:00 -0000

RD,
My mother asked why I do not take my children to church.
My reply was that I will raise them MY way, just as she had raised me HER way!

My father asked if he had wasted his hard earned money working 2 (sometimes 3) jobs to send us to private catholic schools?
My reply was that I received a first class education. I learned religions of the world (big mistake on the schools part), I learned the bible and the history of christianity. The school then had the nerve to tell me that I just had to believe. BULLSHIT!

My parents know that I do not believe in their mythology. I am not angry and bitter, certainly not toward my parents. However, I will not raise my children in this mythology of yours and my parents just because it is the dominate bullshit in our society. My children know enough to defend themselves from the dogma of unreality!

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

south2003 — Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:19:00 -0000

WM,

It's time RD got the boot!

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Frank — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:11:00 -0000

Listen folks I would not be taken in too much with REAL DEAL's explanation there are also many many things that RD conveniently left out, like the perks that pastors receive, like a car and house furnished, with living expenses paid, tax free living, people bringing food, people donating gifts, people putting preachers on a pedestal, people worship, I would be willing to venture a wagger that good ole samaitan RD, conveniently left out a few details, preachers have this policy that to withhold imformation is like, what anyone does not know, it will not hurt them, LIKE THE REAL WHOLE TRUTH

RD may have helped the poor at some point in his life, but you can bet, good ole RD has helped himself to a truck load of goodies too.

Come back and tell me I'm wrong RD, try being truthful to us this time, RD if that is possible.

I know, you've said all you intend to say. I've personally known several preachers in my lifetime, and in every situtation when they get their hands caught in the cookie jar, they always run back to Jesus and hide in their religion, and Jesus will always bail you out, that was the sole purpose Jesus was invented to get pastors and priests out of trouble with the public. RD you're no different. Snakes in the grass.

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

cdmon — Mon, 09 Jan 2006 14:33:00 -0000

RD,

You seemed to have missed the point of the exchange. You came here pounding your chest stating that YOU represent that which was missing from OUR xian faith.

You flat out stated that this site was "damaging." And that WE have no clue...

You've made statements which I have personally found offensive.

Also when you embellished on the scriptures and I straightened you on that.... You backpaddled and changed your tune, which I find typical.

Now you've come back posting that WE are rude and hostile.

Then try to sweeten the story by beating your chest over feeding the poor, clothing the hungry, counseling teens and sitting with the dying. With this "look at the great things I do" puffed up attitude.

I have to say that helping the needy is honorable, but it loses it charity and thanks when you start proclaiming your works to the world for your own glorification.

Charity is not necessarily an exclusive aspect of xianity. There are pagan groups who do the exact same things. There are secular groups who also do these things.

Charity needs to be done secretly, otherwise you've already received your brownie points from that pat on the back you've solicited by proclaiming it openly.

RD, I have asked you a question, which you have totally ignored. Since you made the blanket statement that WE have no clue about the life of jc, I have asked you to enlighten us as to exactly who Joseph's father was?
(Joseph, jc's alleged step daddy) That is a fair question isn't it?

Since you asserted that WE have NO clue, perhaps you should show us. So far you've been given a chance and have failed to show us anything we don't already know.

As far as our abrasiveness goes that is only due to the fact that you have negated our beliefs or non-beliefs. What? Are we not supposed to stand up for what we hold dear? Are you not here doing the same? And as I have explained to you before, we are not on you church website slamming your religion. But here YOU are...

As far as your apologies for what other xians have done, save it. Just be responsible for your own actions and statements.

If you were as respectful as a few other posters on this site who are believers, you might have found that we can be quite cordial.

Cheers

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Jim Arvo — Mon, 09 Jan 2006 13:38:00 -0000

Hello RD,

I'm not going to argue with a thing you said. You seem like a decent person to me, and I have absolutely no quarrel with anything you choose to believe. To me, our exchanges were purely of a philosophical nature (of the type that I only indulge in certain circumstances--such as discussions/debates in a forum such as this).

I too was the son of a blue collar worker; we had a very modest house and life style. I was the first in my family (ever) to attend college, let alone graduate school. Today I own what my parents surely would have considered to be a palatial house, and I am a very proud father. I do not attribute any good fortune to a deity, but neither do I take all the credit for myself. I attribute my good fortune, in large measure, to the efforts of those before me who paved the way; e.g. by building the free and prosperous society in which we live, by providing financial aid toward my education, and by offering countless points of view for me to examine and learn from. As I have said many times here, I'm a firm believer in giving credit where credit is due. I think my fellow humans deserve most of the credit for my successes, and sheer luck gets nearly all the rest. If I had any reason to believe there was an invisible sentient being pulling strings, I'd have no qualms about thanking her either. But intellectual honesty is of the utmost importance to me, and nearly every subject I have studied in earnest points me to the conclusion that supernatural beings are a product of the human mind. As such, I reserve my gratitude for those who are real.

Best of luck to you, and thanks for the civil exchanges.

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Real Deal — Mon, 09 Jan 2006 10:16:00 -0000

To all....

I didnt want anyone to think I "buggged out" of our discussion...I have just been busy.

I have done alot of thinking about our discussion. Some of you have been cordial and presented good arguments from your various positions, conclusions and differnt World View than the Faith you once enbraced.

Others have been outright rude and hostile.

That is of course your right...since I am the Intruder here.

We could continue to banter back and forth with the same "arguments" and reasonings that most of you have already encountered and made an informed decsion on....as long as the webmaster allowed it.

But it was not my intention to generate strive...or anger. I see that I have done both.

I am a "40 something" year old man who still is convinced that the God of the Bible is real and can be known by His Creation. I however cannot convince you or anyone else of my beliefs, based on arguments, facts, conjectures or Bible quoting.

I hope that I have come across a little different than the normal "fundies" you encounter on this website. I do not agree that one must disregard reason and common sense to be a Christian.

I acknowledge that hypocrites, abuses, mis interpretations and silly arguments have resulted in things like church-splits, church fights...and believers even suing one another in Court.

It is a shame.

I also acknowledge that men like Constatine and Charlamange ( among others) committed atrocities in the name of christianity.
The Crusades were savage and brutal and unforgivable.

I re-main a christian because of my personal ongoing experience with Jesus Christ.
I left denominationalism 15 years ago.

I started a non-denominational Christian Church almost a decade ago with the Lords Help.
We feed the hungry, clothe the poor and support a few missions we are are able to help.

As I said...I receive no salary, and the most I was ever paid was during Bible College..when I served as an intern over the summer of 1982.
Eighty Dollars a Week and a 10x10 sleeping room.

I am not complaining...I just want you to know the facts. I actually enjoyed that summer tremendously and feel we accomplished a great deal.

Now 23 years later I see how the life-lessons I learned back then have become indispenable in counseling and helping others today.

I have experienced God restoring Marraiges...through ministry.

Helping troubled teens find their way.

Held the hands of countless elderly folks as they breathed their last breath on Earth.

All of this..( I know everything is relative) ONLY because of God Grace.
I take the credit for nothing. In the great Scheme of World History my life is so insignificant that it hardlt deserves mention...but for the Grace of God.

I was a nothing growing up

Poor...son of a factory worker.

If ever there was a case of God choosing the lowest and least deserving to do his bidding..I am but one of many examples.

Today I have a nice House, a great Wife, Church Family and 2 great Kids....plus many friends.

I owe it all to Him.

That statement is not the result of brainwashing...but of REAL LIFE....

I wish you well...I know God loves us the same..and I respect your decision to choose an alternate path.

RD

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

slingshot — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:08:00 -0000

RD, one must not believe everything one reads. Did you know that there is a bible called the codex which was written in the first 500 years AD? It was found in a monastery in the 1950's and part of it went to London for study with another part going to Russia. It has recently been pieced back together and is being interpreted into modern language and distributed over the internet. I don't have the info with me, but several of the last chapters of the book of Mark are not in it, including an account of the resurrectioin. I'll dig up the info on that. I've got to go.

Again, your interpretation of Matt. 23:13 is absurd.

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Dave8 — Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:24:00 -0000

RD: "I was wrong in my statement."

Well, at least you're honest.

RD: "What are we to do with the 500 however? Assume they were liars?"

RD, I know how hard this must be for you, but... the books, etc., that finally made it into the NT of the bible, did so, because of a vote at the First Council of Nicaea... There were plenty of versions of texts, that were deliberately "left out", because a group of "men" (Roman Church), refused to "believe" and have "faith", that "others" may have been divinely inspired in their writings... for instance;

"The Secret Book of John (Apocryphon of John) are two distinct 2nd century gnostic texts of secret teachings, which are given a Christian context: "the teaching of the saviour, and the revelation of the mysteries and the things hidden in silence, even these things which he taught John, his disciple", are its opening words. John is immediately specified as "John, the brother of James— who are the sons of Zebedee". One of the two distinct versions is thought to be the original on which the other was a large embellishment. The later version is also restructured to the extent that although both versions have the same themes, there is very little of the words and verses in common between them.

Many Christians in the 2nd century hoped to receive a transcendent personal revelation such as Paul was able to report to the church at Corinth (2 Corinthians 12:1 – 4) or that John experienced on the isle of Patmos, which inspired his Revelations (Pagels 2003, p 97 and bibliography at note 69). As Acts narrates what happened after the time Jesus ascended to heaven, so the Apocryphon of John begins at the same point but relates how Christ reappeared to the apostles, with private information that he imparted to Peter and John, "five hundred and fifty days since he had risen from the dead", thus specifically countering Luke's forty days and implying to its original hearers that the possibility of authentic revelation remained open.

The remainder of the book is a Rapture, in its original spiritual and rhetorical sense of a raptus, an ecstatic experience of heaven in the flesh, truly inspired in the sense "full of the spirit". At the book's conclusion:

"Peter and I gave thanks and sent our hearts upward toward heaven. We heard with our ears, and saw with our eyes, the noise of war, trumpets blaring and a great turmoil.And when we had passed beyond that place, we sent our minds farther upwards, and saw with our eyes and heard with our ears... angels rejoicing, as we too rejoiced. (Nag Hammadi Library, quoted by Pagels 2003 p 99)"

The Apocryphon of John was referred to by Irenaeus in Adversus Haereses, ca 185 AD among the writings that teachers in 2nd century Christian communities were producing, "an indescribable number of secret and illegitimate writings, which they themselves have forged, to bewilder the minds of foolish people, who are ignorant of the true scriptures" (A.H. 1.20.1) — scriptures which Irenaeus himself was establishing as no more and no less than four, the "Fourfold gospel" that his authority helped make the canonical four. Among the writings he quotes from in order to expose and refute them, which include a Gospel of Truth and even a Gospel of Judas, is this secret Book of John (Pagels 2003, p. 96 etc).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

"Gnosticism is a blanket term for various mystical initiatory religions, sects and knowledge schools, which were most prominent in the first few centuries AD."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

"Saint Irenaeus (ca. 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. He is recognized as a saint by both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology."

"The high point in salvation history is Jesus. Irenaeus believes that Christ would always have been sent, even if humanity had never sinned; but the fact that they did sin determines his role as a savior. He sees Christ as the new Adam, who systematically undoes what Adam did: thus, where Adam was disobedient about the fruit of a tree, Christ was obedient even to death on the wood of a tree. Irenaeus is the first to draw comparisons between Eve and Mary, contrasting the faithlessness of the former with the faithfulness of the latter. In addition to reversing the wrongs done by Adam, Irenaeus thinks of Christ as "recapitulating" or "summing up" human life. This means that Christ goes through every stage of human life, from infancy to old age, and simply by living it, sanctifies it with his divinity. Irenaeus is therefore forced to argue that Christ did not die until he was quite old!"

Irenaeus Writings:
"In Book II, ch. 22, par. 5, he gives an intriguing note about Jesus being seen by several witnesses in Asia in his older age after crucifixion: ...but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Its quite obvioius that Irenaeus' mission was to take out the gnostics, who had their own Book of John, and its plainly evident this same individual preached that Jesus wasn't just thirty years old upon crucifixion; but between fourty to fifty years old... in order to make his theology have meaning... RD, its been said, again and again. You can't just look at one book in the bible, and swear it as the truth without looking at what was happening while those books were being written, who was writing them, what that authors' beliefs were, etc... Again, these books are either "all" inspired of a divine origin, or they are not

RD: "What about the fact that 2000 years later...most of the 6 billion souls on Planet Earth have heard about Jesus at some point in their life?"

You discount a major area of China... and, just because someone has heard of the god Zeus, doesn't make it universal truth...

RD: "Eleven of his 12 disciples were murdered rather then be forced to admit a lie...namely that their claims, experience and eyewitness accounts were false.
In my opinion they were pretty convinced."

Peter lied three times... go figure...

RD: "And by the way...I too loathe the fact that Televangelists have made "worship" a performance..."

Well, in a competitive market, it appears the performing arts know no bounds...

RD: "...and thus leave a bad taste in the spiritual mouths of many christians and non-christians alike. I however do not have to answer to God for their sin
only my own."

Sure, people don't like to be associated with those who tend to be the rotten apples... However, Paul is the original bad apple, he hijacked the Jews' Holy Book, and started his own little marketing tour, as an evangelist... I suppose it would be easy to pick out the rotten apples, if one were able to define a "true" christian...

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

cdmon — Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:07:00 -0000

Rd said:"I stand corrected. I should have used "hundreds" instead of thousands. I did not intend to mis-lead. Scriptures only back up around 500. I guess I mispoke because in m mind, I know that since Jesus live 33 years...he was probabley seen by thousands during his life...but the Scriptures can only authenticate 500...after his death."

That goes to show how easy it is for the stories to get twisted. How many times have you twisted the stories over the pulpit and misled your flock?

Even such a little mistake on this site will get ripped to shreads. Your not dealing with an ignorant flock that will believe everything you say as gospel, just cause you say it doesn't make it true. I think this point has been proven.

Rd said, "What are we to do with the 500 however? Assume they were liars?"

No, we do not have their written testimony. We only have the buy bulls account, which in one place claims only 120. If the buy bull can't even keep the stories straight, how is it that men can derive any sense of truth from it?

Sorry, the bible is suspect at best. You have failed to clear up this discrepancy, and you expect us to take it's words as god breathed?

rd said: "Eleven of his 12 disciples were murdered rather then be forced to admit a lie...namely that their claims, experience and eyewitness accounts were false.
In my opinion they were pretty convinced."

Perhaps they were forced to tell the truth!!!

rd said (in an earlier post): "You attract "professional christianity haters" here.
I mean really good god haters.
Educated, well read...but in reality have no plausible explanation for 2 events.

The Origin of Earth and Man
and
The life of Jesus Christ.

It really boils down to that."

Since you've made this blanket statement, perhaps you can clear up another problem with your belief. I'm going to make this very simple for you. Okay.... are you ready? Here it is....

Who was Joseph's (betrothed to Mary, mother of the nazz)father?

Since we apparently have no clue about the life of the nazz, as you have asserted, perhaps you can enlighten us on this point.

I look forward to hearing your answer and explanation.

Cheers

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

Jim Arvo — Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:55:00 -0000

RD: "What are we to do with the 500 however? Assume they were liars?"

That was very predictable. You ignored my previous comments on this. Quoting from my previous post "Can you please tell me the name of a single one of those witnesses? How about gender or age. Can you tell me exactly what they saw or where they were then they saw it? Can you quote a single one of them? What evidence do you have for their existence other than that one sentence in Paul's epistle? Why did later evangelists (e.g. the gospel writers) never even mention this fact, let alone elaborate on it?"

In other words, you know NOTHING about those 500. All you have a few words on a page with no detail and no corroboration whatsoever. I might add that Paul provides no information on how he knows this to be so.

RD: "What about the fact that 2000 years later...most of the 6billion souls on Planet Earth have heard about Jesus at some point in their life?"

I'd estimate that a comparable number have heard of Buddha, Allah, and Krishna. What do you make of that?

RD: " In my opinion they were pretty convinced."

I'd say the Muslim extremists who flew planes into the World Trade Center were fairly convinced too. Does that mean they were right?

RD, quoting John 20:31: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God..."

EXACTLY!! Can you say hagiography?! John makes it quite plain that his mission is to instill belief, not to record objective history. Such tracts have been written about countless divine figures, including saints. See "Why I Don't Buy the Resurrection Story" by Richard Carrier for an other examples of such writing, and why it should be taken with a very small grain of salt: http://www.infidels.org/lib...

RD quoting John 21:25: "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written."

Is that supposed to be convincing? Not only is this uncorroborated hearsay, but it is completely vacuous--there is absolutely nothing in that assertion that can even be checked! I think such hyperbole requires a high degree of credulity. Why on earth would you find rhetoric such as this to be compelling, but (presumably) not the SIGNED and DATED letters attesting to the existence of the gold tablets from which Joseph Smith copied the Book of Mormon?

Re: I wonder if many got the real gospel - Letters to the Webmaster

south2003 — Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:20:00 -0000

Raw Deal: “What about the fact that 2000 years later...most of the 6billion souls on Planet Earth have heard about Jesus at some point in their life?
I would say this one man has made quite an impact..."

Come on now, let us have it! I'm twitching with excietment. I know that you will pray for us to see the light before it's too late, right? Right - because that's all you have left in your bag of tricks. Are you the jester of the courts?

You are one funny chap..

Later fundie