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What, were they trying to tell you that all existence, life, mind, and objective reason itself are the product of mindless forces? That life arose from a chemical soup? That kind of science?
I bet they didn't teach you stuff about the provisionality of scienctific theories, the fatally flawed premises of the Miller-Urey experiement, of the contradictions between relativity and quantum theory.
And so, at thieteen, you became an atheist on the "spur of the moment."?
Very convincing.
Kick ass, Tressa.
As a scientist I am constantly humbled by the extent of my ignorance about the universe and the laws which cause it to work. You have the drop on me there, as you have moved beyond humble ignorance to absolute certainty based on the need NOT to know. Now, let us examine your comments:
The Miller-Urey experiment in not fatally flawed in its premises. The experiment was an attempt to discover whether certain complex molecules involved in the sustenance of life could arise abiotically and without the need for divine intervention. Insofar as the experiment showed that they can, it was a complete success. On the principle that they cannot fully explain the development of life on the basis of their success in manufacturing certain molecules, I would argue that you cannot assert that the walls of Jericho did fell down as you do not know which stone in the wall fell first.
Rather than base your objections on having read the headline of an article in an anti-science xtian newspaper, I suggest that you read the original science papers. If you cannot understand these then a resume is available at http://www.natcenscied.org/icons/icon1millerure....
Your comments about the contradictions between relativity and quantum theory are valid, but you are being very, very selective and disingenuous in your presentation. Newtonian physics describes phenomena which relativity and quantum theory also address but does so at a different level and reflect the state of knowledge at the time Newton did his work. The same applies to relativity and quantum theory. Your argument is the same one that I would use to state that the Old Testament an the New Testament are contradictory in the description of the attributes of god and the standards of behaviour h/she/it demands of his/her/its adherents. What is sauce for the goos is also sauce for the gander and hence you must agree that I have demolished the arguments for the existence of god just as well as you believe you have undermined the findings of science.
As a scientist I am aware that my knowledge is incomplete. I am further aware that the "laws" which I make use of in my work are subject to change as more knowledge becomes available. As a xtian you have convinced yourself that ignorance is a virtue as it sustains your faith in something which you can neither prove nor understand.
The same "flawed" science underpins most of your daily activities, from the concrete and asphalt on which you walk and drive to the food you eat an the medicines for which you pay your insurances.
As a former xtian, evangelist and preacher I am qualified to have informed opinions about xtianity as I have spent many hours in study and meditation on the subject. I would be interested to know the basis on which you claim to be qualified to have such strongly held opinions about science.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvXxgNUtGIw&feat...
Actually, I didn't mean to insult rocks that way...Sorry Rocks.
ATF (Who named that as a fundie video, in under 5 seconds)
BB
Instead of trying to understand why science concludes what it does, they just assume it must be wrong and then proceed to fill in the blanks with their god-done-it theory.
This man also has no concept on how easy it has been in our history, to brainwash the average person with this religious dogma, nor can he realize how brainwashed he's become either.
I had to laugh hard towards the end of the video, where he concludes that god must be real, because those who came before us on this earth (ex. our parents) were sure god was real, and we surely wouldn't call them stupid for believing.
If that is his evidence for god, then why doesn't he believe in the many other ancient gods, that our ancestors (who also came before us) were sure existed.
Is it possible for a brain to explode from overexposure of stupidity, because this jerk sure is testing that limit on all who have a thinking brain inside their head.
ATF (Who wonders what else a STONED commander see's and thinks is real)
I believe that my Youtube guy's head has already exploded; it exploded much like his charming description of the Big Bang Theory. Says Stoned Commander: "It was like putting a stick of dynamite into a bowling ball". Critical thinking is not taught in our schools. Science illiteracy runs high. When you try to push the limits and force students to THINK, the Texas Legislature, fundie parents, the school board run by the local pastor and his wife and your principal are often the first to tie your hands. Great teachers end up frustrated. They leave the profession which is sad but understandable. The high rate of attrition in public education is frightening. Some of us stick around because we are insane enough to believe that "something can be done" even with fundie parents breathing down our necks. Stoned Commander is an embarrassment but not uncommon where I work. Heck, I think I dated him once but I dumped him because of his disturbing obsession with "round planets"....I can't handle that type of genius.........LOL!!!!!!!!
To your below posted reply....
Trust me, this 'commander' has done this experiment to; although it took him well over an hour to figure out which of the 3 holes to put the dynamite in.
>Science illiteracy runs high.
I imagine where you live is far worse in this regard, than my area.
Somehow I get this picture of the fundies who are forced to take a science class, sitting through each class with their fingers in their ears, praying for jesus to keep the demons away from them.
> When you try to push the limits and force students to THINK, the Texas Legislature, fundie parents, the school board run by the local pastor and his wife and your principal are often the first to tie your hands.
It's really difficult for me to accept that a public school can censor science knowledge.
The closest I can recall to such a scenario around my area, was the sex-ed classes that some parents kept their kids from attending.
What a pity they are trying to keep the kids in your area, in the stone age of science.
I don't think I could keep-my-cool, if I were surrounded by folks of such a mentality.
>Some of us stick around because we are insane enough to believe that "something can be done" even with fundie parents breathing down our necks.
Well, I commend you for doing so [cue applause]
>Stoned Commander is an embarrassment but not uncommon where I work. Heck, I think I dated him once but I dumped him because of his disturbing obsession with "round planets"....I can't handle that type of genius
I'm fully expecting to find him listed soon, in the pages of the upcoming "Darwin Awards", probably from experimenting with gravity in conjunction with explosive filled bowling balls.
Really BB, I can't understand why you wouldn't want such an upcoming Einstein in your life.
I do wonder how he can make a video with such claptrap and not hide his face behind something like a talking snake head.
ATF (Who thinks science classes should be required in schools, but then English already is, and that went right over most fundie heads anyway)
Wow, I feel so much better now that I've surrendered my critical reasoning to ancient Near Eastern mythology.
What, were they trying to tell you that all existence, life, mind and objective reason are unlikely to be the product of a flying, invisible, magic friend who could split into three yet remain always one? That there is no evidence that life arose from a whim of a supernatural grand-daddy who needed worshipful minions? That kind of science?
I bet they didn't teach you stuff about the lack of evidence of talking serpents, the fatally flawed premises of believing without evidence that one is able to effectively able to walk on water, of the contradictions between accounts in OT and NT of what is supposed to be an unchanging God.
That kind of science is obviously flawed, you should not have become an atheist.
Thats why I am very convincing.
P.s. Even with the correction in recent experiments to be in line with new data about the composition of earths early atmosphere (the premise i suspect you are talking about) , similar results are obtained. Furthermore the Miller-Ulrey experiment only illustrates one of the many routes in which the building blocks of life may have arisen.
As for the contradiction - the issue is not so much contradiction but the limitations of what each theory is able to describe. Quantum theory is applied on an extremely small scale (subatomic level) whereas Relativity is applied to an extremely large scale (celestial bodies). Applied in their respective scales - they have proved extremely reliable - GPS statelites are programmed assuming that there is relativity. What really is the issue is coming up with a better single theory that is able to describe what Quantum mechanics as well as Relativity are able to describe in their respective scales.
Anyway, it came earlier in your life. So, you'll have that much longer to live as a freethinker. Good for you!
Stauffenberg - I very much doubt that Tressa's academic experience through age 13 included an introduction to the Miller-Urey experiment of 1953. I am 50 years old now and I had heard of it only a few years ago. What I have learned since is that it led to much subsequent research which supports a non-biblical origin-of-life theory. Look it up.
Scientific endeavor has accomplished much in the past half-century, because science is willing to learn from mistakes, to admit "we don't know, but we'll keep searching for the answer." What you term the "provisionality of scientific theories" is an asset, not a detriment.
Keep writing.
nina
Thank you for sharing your story with us here. More power to your elbow. To have had the presence of mind to do the analysis as early in life as you did is to be applauded. You have, if nothing else, escaped the 20+ years of delusional prison that I suffered as a xtian.
Welcome and long, happy life to you.
Glebealyth, thanks for rebutting Stauffenberg. In which denomination did you preach?
I was a lay member in both the Church of England and Baptist churches.
I was an evangelical singer and preacher - never ordained, other than by the Hand of Jeebus.
Like Ian in another thread, I apologize to all of those whom I led to the saving grave of the mythical sky fairy's putative son.
'F%cking morons and their men of straw.
Must be something in the Canadian air... (inhales deeply) Ahh...
Unlike you, my parents are semi-fundie (not all the way, but a bit) and they sent me to catholic school.
I never questioned until it was too late.
I almost became one of those brainwashed priests.
It wasn't till now that I realized that the bible was just a book full of scary stories.
- TORM
Some of us learn early, some never at all.
Congratulation to you, Tressa! I'm glad you did not have to waste as much of you life as too many of us did before we had the good sense, or courage, to follow our brain.
Welcome to the unfold Tressa!