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Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

eel_shepherd — Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:24:00 -0000

Astreja wrote:
"...I've read the Gospels, Samantha. To me, they are merely second-rate stories in a very old and badly translated book. They do not inspire me. I much prefer..."

Astreja, we seem to be on a very similar wavelength. In an earlier post in this thread, you took the words right out of my mouth, word for word, when you wrote, "Jesus is not love; love is love." I wonder if you have ever read any of the stuff taped and transcribed of Nisargadatta, and what you thought of it.

Curious George, I had you made for one of the regulars, and had a shortlist of who you might have been, but you fooled me, as far as the #1 slot on the list went. As far as the comment that the Samanthas might not be up to the task of the lively exchange goes, I'll go you a step further --- I'm sure they're not up to the task.

Now for a bit of the heavy lifting.

Samantha, you are:
i] beginning your reckoning of yardage at the 1-yard line, not the goal line; and,
ii] apparently proud of it.

Both are positions to be tended to, if your goal is to reach people where they are, not where you imagine them to be. Objects in the mirror are always one yard farther away than they appear to you to be. That extra yard from the goal line that you arrogate to yourself, and point to as your faith, looks more to us like giving a Christian an inch so that they can take a mile. You haven't earned that extra yard; you just took it (or think you did). And until you earn it, no-one's going to take you seriously here.

When you say that there is a god who knows every hair on your head and knows everything about you, I just think of that as an exercise in simultaneous translation and I translate it into something that makes sense to me: that life is a fractal affair, and that at every frame of reference, from the smallest to the largest there are forces and parameters of nature that have the knack, feel, involvement, and expertise appropriate for action at that frame of reference. The life of each hair on your head is important to that hair. And the wind that can knock a bridge over in Tacoma is one that any of us could easily walk around the streets in. If this thoroughgoing sensibility at every frame from the micro to the macro is what you mean by god, well, that's nice. But it's possible to get by without it and just call it for what it is. "Things are a lot like what they're similar to; but they're exactly what they are," as the feller says. That there are no gaps in the operation of the big world says nothing more than that there are no gaps in the operation of the big world. That there is a place for you in this scheme of things is not the same as saying that there is a personal god who has your interests at heart. It's just a matter of that you fit into this scheme and are sustained by it and interoperable with it, for the moment; and the moment that you cease to fit with those big and small forces, your breath and being will be confiscated by them and you will be reabsorbed into them at levels of their say-so.

Off-topic now, here's my two cents on what atheism is. Atheism is a provisional operating principle that a god can be placed along with every other thing that gives no evidence of existing --- probably nonexistent.

As for Xtians who say they'll pray for you, but who wouldn't bother to piss in your ear if your brain was on fire, I quote the from the song, "...they'll stone you and then they'll say `good luck'..."

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Astreja — Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:30:00 -0000

Samantha: "Jesus' divine words, please...unblock your ears and hear:"

I've read the Gospels, Samantha. To me, they are merely second-rate stories in a very old and badly translated book. They do not inspire me. I much prefer the Dao de Jing, Dhammapada, Hávamál, Völuspá, Prajñāpāramitā Hṛdaya Sūtra, Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra, and countless works of non-religious fiction. I have gained far more useful wisdom from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy than I ever found in the Bible. (Don't even get me started on the Foundation Trilogy or Atlas Shrugged.)

"today I am asking the sick..."

That's pretty arrogant of you, you know. Non-believers are not sick, although I can see them becoming so if they were to rely too heavily on the good graces of invisible beings.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

boomSLANG — Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:45:00 -0000

Okay, Curious'.... but I'll have you know that I had you pegged back on September 3rd...i.e.."D8?" = )

Peace.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Curious George — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:29:00 -0000

I accepted my atheism at 34, after coming to terms that I had never held knowledge of a God, just unverifiable information.

I am as well glad to see you Jim Arvo, hope you are well, and work tapers off for you. Will be great to see you back...

Well, it appears I need to level; I am Dave8... and yes, my episteme is that of an objectivist... at times, I attempt to prompt lively discussion amongst the regulars, because... well, I'm not sure Samantha and her crew are really up to the task :-)

Caleb, that is an awesome pic on your blog... if thinking ever becomes a crime, send me to jail :-)

Peace

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Caleb — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:19:00 -0000

Thanks pammyg.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

redtail — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:20:00 -0000

Well let me just say that i, for one, am glad to have you back Jim Arvo!

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Bill — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:29:00 -0000

D. Laurier said,

"No child should have to grow up believing such rubbish.

I finaly escaped from christianity when I was 21 years old.

I am now 41 years old, And quite happy with my life as an atheist."

One of the greatest gifts my parents gave me was the power to think for myself. They allowed me to make up my own mind as far as matters of religion were concerned. I can't imagine what a child goes through growing up in a fundementalist household. It was nice not feeling guilty having normal teenage urges and relieving them in a normal teenage fashion.

After a lifetime of failed attempts to connect with God/Jesus I find myself a content atheist at 44.

I spent the weekend with three couples whom were all Christians except for one of the husbands. They just couldn't grasp the fact that my life could be complete without this "Grand Purpose." They insisted I needed something to believe in. Why can't they realize when you reach the point of being an "enlightened athesit" the fear is gone and there is no greater peace.

xrayman

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Jim Arvo — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:57:00 -0000

Anonymous said "Curious George = Jim Arvo, Maybe? Where is Jim Arvo?"

I've been alternately "on vacation" and buried in work, so I've been scarce. I've barely had a chance to see what's been going on around here as of late. I see Samantha is supplying more deep Christian insights.

By the way, I am not "Curious George". As a rule, I do not use pseudonyms. I've no problem with those who do, I simply choose not to use them myself.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

D Laurier — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:04:00 -0000

Hullo Samantha.
Just so you know, My ears are completely unblocked, And I hear quite well.

My heart is as soft as it has to be to continue functioning, If it were any softer it would be useless, and I would be quite dead.

I was a devout and desperate christian for 12 long and humiliating years. I wallowed in self loathing and guilt for my being alive. I was fully convinced that I was worthless trash that deserved to be burnt forever. And I fully believed that Jesus would save me if I just prayed a little harder.

No child should have to grow up believing such rubbish.

I finaly escaped from christianity when I was 21 years old.

I am now 41 years old, And quite happy with my life as an atheist.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

SEO — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:05:00 -0000

A divine Q-tip of sort?

Seems to me that there shouldn’t be any barrier that we, puny humans, could put up if a god really wanted to talk us.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Jim Earl — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:47:00 -0000

Samanta writes:

Jesus' divine words, please...unblock your ears and hear:

Jesus told his disciples: "Go out and bring those who would have me as their king, and for those who reject me, bring them and slay them at my feet."

OUCH! Some divive ruler!

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

boomSLANG — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:38:00 -0000

"Samantha" is back with: Jesus' divine words, please...unblock your ears and hear:[insert meaningless apologetic rhetoric]

Please, unblock your eyes and read these 'undivine' words: Regurgitating scripture on this website is utterly useless---like that of chicken shit a door knob.

Bye now.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Samantha — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 07:24:00 -0000

Jesus' divine words, please...unblock your ears and hear:

I Am, rest in Me; all Heaven is full of joy, this is what you call the beatitude in its plenitude;

daughter, if souls only knew how wonderful it is to live in God, no one would be lost so easily; unless they chose to be lost like Judas; he chose the way to perdition, not that My Heart did not melt with sorrow every time I saw him take one further step away from Me; not that I had not prayed for him; not that I had not cried My Eyes out for him; I had opened so many ways for him to take, all leading to Me, but no sooner had he started one than he came out of it when he would realize I had laid it for him, for to sin he added rebellion, heaping abuses in his heart, for Me his God, when he realized that My Kingdom was not an earthly kingdom in earthly glory; he shut his heart and cut out our bonds and estranged himself immediately from Me; his senses of what is righteous or not was darkened and obeyed the ruler who governs the air;

today I am asking the sick like I asked the sick man at the pool of Bethzatha, 1 'do you want to be well again?' I can heal you instantly, and all Heaven shall rejoice and celebrate! My gift is free, so come to Me as you are, I shall heal you, soul, so that you can share My Kingdom and live in Me your God

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Anonymous — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 07:10:00 -0000

Curious George = Jim Arvo, Maybe?
Where is Jim Arvo ?

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Curious George — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 00:38:00 -0000

BoomSLANG: "I wasn't clear; I think that I can avoid a lengthy exchange by amending what I said about "Samantha" being an "agnostic believer", to say that she'd never admit that she was "agnostic"."

Amen, brother...

BoomSLANG: "As long as "God" remains undefinable; as long as Theists cannot even agree on what "God" is, everybody is "agnostic" by default, as far as I'm concerned."

I understand your position, in view of universals and inability to assert a universal absolute for all time, and am skeptical that in our temporal bodies we will achieve such knowledge as well.

However, I prefer natural atheism due to lack of belief at birth to be a cognitive default starting position. Whereas, although one may be skeptical that anyone can ever attain universal knowledge, through both space and time beyond a temporal existence, one can make positive claims about universal facts. I exist, as a universal fact, and my existence will go down in the annals of cosmological history as an Objective Truth, part of the Objective Reality in which I reside.

For an agnostic, they are uncertain as to my claim of universal fact, as they are uncertain as to their ability to truly have knowledge of anything with certainty, to include their own existence. It is a position taken by the individual, one doesn't appear to naturally grow into this position, where they become skeptical of all universal facts, one has to adopt a sense of pervasive skepticism that doesn't permit the certainty of any universal fact.

It is interesting, that the requirement of universal absolute truth can be marred with a plethora of additional tests, such as; exists for all time, and over space matter, etc. And indeed, that seems to be what a Christian would suggest, God is today, as was yesterday, as will be forever.

These additional tests, placed upon the Universals by theists (and possibly others), is someone else’s' doing. If one were to entertain such a proposition, they may claim agnosticism, because of the tests placed upon the Universality predicate.

Where I have a problem I suppose, is that I don't care to accept the theistic proposition that all universals remain constant through all time and space; it's a proposition that can't be falsified, and to reject what a person can know just doesn't seem prudent, since it is that which we can know, that gives us credibility in our positions.

I have argued against this type theistic proposition, to show the absurdity of the universal test of; for all time and space, without change.

An objectivist or skeptic may arrive under atheism as non-theists, but upon different paths.

"According to the Objectivist epistemology, through sensory perception and a process of reasoning, man can achieve absolute knowledge of his environment. Objectivism rejects skepticism. As a corollary, it also maintains that anything that is not learned by objective, rational means is not true knowledge, rejecting faith as a means of attaining knowledge."

Of course, agnosticism is a form of skepticism projected towards the self. And, objectivism tends towards absolute certainty of universal facts, in such that, there are factual instances of objective truth, such as our existence, etc.

"Sensory perception is considered axiomatically "valid" on the grounds that it is self-contradictory to deny the efficacy of the senses as sources of genuine knowledge. (Objectivism argues that such an assertion implicitly relies upon the validity of the senses, since the senses are the only possible source of the alleged knowledge of their invalidity.)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

I stand initially guarded about knowledge claims of another person that I can not falsify, and do so, by validating myself as a responsible agent in the process of knowledge discovery.

To reject my senses, or place unfalsifiable tests required for true knowledge acquisition is not something I accept in my philosophy of life. It forces a perpetual skepticism of the self to know something with certainty.

Caleb: "I think we can at least all agree that if some kind of universal deity did exist, we can be 100% certain it is not the one the Bible describes. Although, I don't believe one does exist at all."

I agree, I am 100% absolutely certain, I have not at any point in my life, ever been presented with an entity as described by that of the Christian Bible, or any Abrahamic religion for that matter :-)

Albeit, I don't make absolute certain claims about the future; I am skeptical that I will ever be given an absolutely certain description of any God, by the supernatural theist, that can be both reliable and valid, which will allow me to identify such an entity were I ever to be present in its existence.

Now, my knowledge isn't complete, I do still learn, all the time actually... and if a Christian wants to proffer knowledge, then I am all ears, but that would seem to undo the need for faith ;-)

We each have our perspectives, and I respect that, take care all.

Peace

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

pammyg — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 22:06:00 -0000

Even though "Stuff like this happens", I wanted to say that I'm sorry for your loss. And I hope your wife is doing well. Great article, I am in complete agreement.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

pammyg — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 22:01:00 -0000

Caleb: I am an atheistmommy myself and although I don't live in Texas, I do visit there. You see, my atheist daughter, who is married to her atheist husband lives there. They hang out with their atheist friends and have "fellowship" (sarcasm intended) at their Freethinker Atheist "Church" and at her University Freethinker group. At least in the DFW area, there are plenty of atheists! I attended a "church" service there and it was a riot!!

Once my other son and daughter move there, as they are planning to, you can add two more to the list. As for me, maybe someday I'll call myself a Texan. For now, I'll stay in Yankeeland with all the Catholics...

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Caleb — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 20:30:00 -0000

I think we can at least all agree that if some kind of universal deity did exist, we can be 100% certain it is not the one the Bible describes. Although, I don't believe one does exist at all.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

boomSLANG — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:16:00 -0000

BoomSLANG: "The common denominator is lack of certainty, when it comes to knowledge of whether a 'God' exists, or not. For instance, Samantha(above this post) is a perfect example of an "agnostic believer". She merely affirms the consequence(logical fallacy) while claiming to 'know' with absolute certainty that the biblical creator god, 'Yahweh', exists. However, like most teenaged evangelists, she only offers anectodal evidence in conjunction with revelation, which is nothing close to being objective."

Curious George: I emphasized the atheist agnostic, based on a skepticism that places uncertainty on an individual's human ability to know/define their individual/personal relational experiences in life. In short, this position asserts/affirms one's one's inability to currently know, or ever know anything about the relational facts surrounding a God.

D8?

I wasn't clear; I think that I can avoid a lengthy exchange by amending what I said about "Samantha" being an "agnostic believer", to say that she'd never admit that she was "agnostic".

As long as "God" remains undefinable; as long as Theists cannot even agree on what "God" is, everybody is "agnostic" by default, as far as I'm concerned. Notwithstanding, I still have the freedom/luxery of saying that while I don't know if a 'generic' Universal deity exists, that I unequivocately do NOT believe there is such a thing.

Peace.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Curious George — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:41:00 -0000

BoomSLANG": "Since "agnosticism" deals with knowledge, not "belief", there can thus be agnostic believers(Theists, Deists, etc.), as well as agnostic non-believers(Atheists)"

Thanks for the input, here is what I was using to support my thoughts on the matter;

Agnosticism: 1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
–adjective 3. of or pertaining to agnostics or agnosticism.
4. asserting the uncertainty of all claims to knowledge.
http://dictionary.reference...

BoomSLANG: "The common denominator is lack of certainty, when it comes to knowledge of whether a "God" exists, or not. For instance, Samantha(above this post) is a perfect example of an "agnostic believer". She merely affirms the consequence(logical fallacy) while claiming to "know" with absolute certainty that the biblical creator god, "Yahweh", exists. However, like most teenaged evangelists, she only offers anectodal evidence in conjunction with revelation, which is nothing close to being objective."

I emphasized the atheist agnostic, based on a skepticism that places uncertainty on an individual's human ability to know/define their individual/personal relational experiences in life. In short, this position asserts/affirms one's one's inability to currently know, or ever know anything about the relational facts surrounding a God.

If Samantha claims to have knowledge of God, she is not skeptical of her ability to currently know, or ever know if a God is factual. Thus, while she may try to hide behind the title agnostic, while claiming belief; it is contradictory, or as you put it a logical fallacy.

Now, I can't deny that there are a herd of people who take titles and make statements that contradict their position.

When I see a person suggest they believe in God, but they are agnostic, its contradictory to me. The claim of belief/agnosticism is underpinned by the positive affirmation to the "existence" of a God. I have experienced some believers say, I believe God is a fact, but I don't have all the details, therefore, I am agnostic regarding all knowledge of the God in question.

To me, the question that places one under the broad umbrella of theism of atheism, is upon the question of a God's existence alone. How a person got under those two umbrellas is a matter of inquiry; to me, I wonder if one got under one of those two umbrellas with forethought, reason, or just by basic natural inheritance implicit via birth, etc.

Here is what an objectivist would likely suggest towards the position of agnosticism.

Agnosticism:
--Genus: Position on the existence of God
--Differentia: The claim of non-belief in God and the non-disbelief in God - that the state of Gods existence is unknowable
Comment: This is an example of the evasion of the Law of Excluded Middle.

On Law of Excluded Middle:
--Genus: Logical axiom
--Differentia: A proposition is either true or false, but cannot be both or neither.

Since there exists nothing in Reality that is both true and false, objectively, there must be a contextual truth to every proposition. Agnosticism rejects this claim of objective reality, in that it evades accepting the terms of knowledge attainment.

On Evasion:
--Genus: Mental process
--Differentia: Intentional attempt to deny, overlook, or ignore information or ideas

Agnosticism, was born between the politics of theism and atheism, and in so doing, suggested a position of evasion on the topic of God and in essence, Reality, as a viable option for those who didn't want to get pulled into the political-religious fray.

However, evasion is the suggestion that one willfully suppresses their own knowledge of reality. While I can't know about someone else's belief, likes, dislikes, etc., I can surely make a positive claim based on my own personal knowledge on the existence of a God in my life.

Everyone who is mentally capable gets to choose whether to think, or not to think. Thinking is only the beginning, a person must be able to focus on a particular source or not.

A person can choose a position that evades making positive claims of their knowledge, experience, topic of idea. For instance, anger or guilt may prevent someone from thinking about a particular topic, by focusing their mind on something else; akin to changing the topic of a conversation in order to maintain perceived neutrality.

Avoidance and evasion of one's own knowledge & experience may be politically correct, but it's a rejection of the self and ability to know anything, personally.

I am an atheist, not because of what people like Samantha may suggest is a fact, or because of others who may suggest God(s) don't exist as a fact; I am who I am because of what I know, through my life experience. I do poorly chasing other people's rabbits/irrationality, in order to make sense of who I am.

What I find most helpful from others, is great discussion that allows me to place my personal life experiences and accepted knowledge into a more concrete context; as context allows us to make sense of our experiences in life.

I understand why many have the beliefs they do; and this post in no way is meant to attack the agnostic position, it's just what I have come to understand based on dictionary statements, and a little research.

I am an objectivist with a few twists, and don't concern myself too much on what I can't possibly know; I tend to focus on what I can know.

Hope you had a great weekend, take care.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

twincats — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:38:00 -0000

ExCHHCer, you are SO right! I’d never really thought about it that way before!

Praying for people is what xtians do when they want to give the perception of helping without actually doing anything materially helpful!

I mean, if you can “help” someone by whispering a prayer on your couch during the commercial break of your favorite TV program, why would you donate your hard-earned money to a (non church) cause or use your valuable (non church) time to volunteer?

So selfless, eh? I’ll never thank anyone for praying for me again!

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Bill — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:37:00 -0000

Caleb said,

"If God was real, then it would be our duty as humans to be angry with him. I mean, "He" definitely has some f@#%king explaining to do right?"

Very powerful statement.

Caleb you mentioned your wife working in pediatric oncology. I work in a trama center with a pediatric cancer ward. As an xray tech I see everything in the hospital from busted bodies involved accidents to children battling cancer. Your mind learns to adapt to almost everything, but I will never get used to seeing a child going through chemo.

There is one little girl in particular who's face I will forever see in my mind. She was this Indian girl with these huge brown eyes. She battled luekemia from age five to 11 when she finally succumed. Her disease made her a regular fixture at my workplace for all those years and robbed her of her childhood. I never once saw her smile. She tore my heart out each and every time I saw her. Chistians attest to this great sacrafice of Jesus on the cross, but that wasn't fucking shit compared to the suffering of this innocent child.

Samantha you seem very kind but you must get in touch with reality. For the above mentioned situation to occur is not proof of a loving Jesus. Oh shit you know what. This little girl was from India. No wonder Jesus did not deliver her from those years of misery. She wasn't a Christian. Oh shoot now I get it.

xrayman

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Caleb — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:27:00 -0000

What you have to realize Samantha is that atheism is not some demon that makes you reject God. Atheism is a term used to describe a lack of belief in a god. As an exChristian however, I do reject your God (and all gods for that matter since I'm also an atheist) for many reasons, but especially because of the ways that love is given a bad name by the bible. More than that though you have to realize that as an exChristian, ex Youth pastor, ex Ministry Director I have already tried every possible method you throw at me for holding on to my faith. I've heard all the words, I've cried out to God, I've fasted, I've done it all. Once, you set your mind to experience God without accepting a substitute for "him" moving, you see how empty and pointless such acts are. Samantha, you need to research what you believe. Learn of it's Pagan origins, learn how it was violently spread from obscurity. Study to show thyself approved... if you will. Set yourself free from that metaphysical God prison your mind is trapped in. It's funny how once you do that, a whole new world of truth and freedom opens up to you. I promise, you will be happier for it.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

.:webmaster:. — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 04:38:00 -0000

I agree, James.

That's why I have a shrine set up for my house pixies.

My imaginary invisible friends keep my sane.

Re: God has some explaining to do - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Anonymous — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 02:07:00 -0000

Some people need to be a little less arrogant in their beliefs, to be sure. At the same time, though I no longer believe in a God, I have a hard time insisting that people shake free of their notions of a benevolent creator. Life is hard and painful at times, and we gotta do what we gotta do to keep us sane.

- James