This article reminds me on the article in the Time Magazine a while back: "We're practicing assault ministry."
So...the bible was used to justify slavery, adn then it was used to abolish slavery. Hmm. Okay. But not surprising, because I have seen a lot of things interpreted one way in the bible, and then in the opposite way.
Stephen B
· 2 years ago
Oh my yes! One should always refute hyperbole with hyperbole! Way to go!
Carl K.
· 2 years ago
Wow. I could maybe give this a little more credence if it wasn't absolutely wrong in it's very first assertion. The greatest scientists in the world were not, and are not, all devout Christians. Albert Einstein, for starters, is not. And certainly neither Newton's nor Einstein's discoveries had anything at all to do with the Bible.
It's the willingness of the Christian apologists to engage in this kind of bald-faced lying that disgusts me about them.
Having read the reviews, I'm pretty sure that D'Souza and Hutchinson's books are not all that much better at dealing with the truth.
CSI Addict
· 2 years ago
Einstein was hardly Christian. Dawkins comments on this in one of his speeches.
[When the prissy anti-Christs tell you the Bible stands in the way of science, inform them that the greatest scientific geniuses in history were devout Christians—and scientists from Newton to Einstein insisted that biblical religion provided the key ideas from which experimental science could develop.]
DUG853
· 2 years ago
When I first saw this title in my inbox, I had 'imagined' that it said "Christians declare war on tho.....ught. (thought)
I now see that my original assumption wasn't very far away from the actual title.
Optimalist Thinker
· 2 years ago
Actually, some great scientists were Christians. Michael Faraday, probably the greatest experimentalist of the 19th century, was a devout Christian. Because of his beliefs, he refused to work on chemical weapons for the British military. However, it could be argued that people find a religion that fits them rather than adapting to a religion. In this sense, people can be good Christians, but it is their human nature, not their religion that makes them what they are.
John of Indiana
· 2 years ago
(sigh) Hitler wasn't an Atheist. And since the late 1940's Europe has become less war-like as the Clergy's influence has dwindled away.
D'Souza's one of our more rabid Xian Apologists, isn't he?
Dave8
· 2 years ago
Why is it that religion seems to target the education system with propaganda in order to make their case for a supernatural being...
To the Christian...
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.
For religious and Christian political leaders...
George Bernard Shaw: "But no public man...ever believes that the Bible means what it says: he is always convinced that it says what he means."
For those who want to use scientists for their cause…
Thomas Edison: "My mind is incapable of conceiving such a thing as a soul. I may be in error, and man may have a soul, but I simply do not believe it."
Johannes Kepler: Once miracles are admitted, every scientific explanation is out of the question."
Albert Einstein: "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere."
Sigmund Freud: "Our knowledge of the historical worth of certain religious doctrines increases our respect for them, but does not invalidate our proposal that they should cease to be put forward as the reasons for the precepts of civilization.... We may now argue that the time has probably come...for replacing the effect of repression by the results of the rational operation of the intellect."
smbakk
· 2 years ago
"6. When they tell you that Christianity and the Bible justify war and genocide, unsympathetically remind them that societies which rejected biblical morality in favor of a more “rational” and “scientific” approach to politics murdered "millions upon millions" more than the Crusades or the Inquisition ever did. Hello. “Atheist regimes have caused the greatest mass murders in history,” says D’Souza. Inside D’Souza’s book you’ll find little gems like, “The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Galileo affair, and witch hunts together make up less than 1% of the murders that have occurred during modern atheist regimes like Stalin, Hitler, and Mao.”" Wow, this guy is so full of CRAP(Christians Reciting Absurd Propoganda) I'd like to know the "real" stats, not just from the Christian perspective, and to be fair, include all those who have been killed by Christians in the name of or for the cause of Christianity.
SpaceMonk
· 2 years ago
Well I just had a look at the Amazon page for D'Souza's book and it seems he supports evolution, so he can't be a True Christian.
Bob Boldt
· 2 years ago
I did a brief bit of Googling to try to substantiate my belief that most scientists are atheists only to find this old study. I would feel better if there was more up to date data on this. I guess Bush cut off the funding.
I remain a pretty unimpressed by some of the examples of theist scientists. Some of them are pretty far back in the history of science. I think the fundamentalist Christians make a big deal about the faith of Sir Isac Newton … who also believed in astrology and was obsessed with alchemy.
Hopefully as humans become more enlightened they will reluctantly drop, one by one, such superstitions as special creation, young earth theory, virgin birth, the resurrection of the dead and a Big Daddy God. Don’t hold your breath however.
According to a survey of scientists who are members of the US National Academy of Sciences (NAS).
“The question of religious belief among US scientists has been debated since early in the century. Our latest survey (1998) finds that, among the top natural scientists, disbelief is greater than ever — almost total.
In 1996, we repeated Leuba's 1914 survey and reported our results in Nature [3]. We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents.”
Edward J. Larson Department of History, University of Georgia, Athens, Georgia 30602-6012, USA e-mail:edlarson@uga.edu
The author reports "near universal rejection" of the transcendent by NAS natural scientists. Overall, 93 percent of NAS scientists do not profess a belief in God (72.2 percent disbelief, 20.8 agnostic), I don’t see any compelling reason to believe in any reversal in these figures since '98.
Of course after the Rapture, it may be a different matter. BTW I am personally looking forward to the Rapture… or any excuse to get all those Born Again Assholes off the planet. Think of what it would do for world peace!
Peace,
Bob Boldt
David90212
· 2 years ago
Hey X-ian crackpot,
So how about the world being 6,000 years old. Come forward and address that you mental midget. I dare you!
Ricky
· 2 years ago
Wow! I was an atheist, but I just read those arguments and now I'm a devout Christian! These were the most influential 2 minutes I've ever had! I can't believe that I was so wrong for so long! ...Or, the stupidity of this made my brain hurt. Hmm... I have to go with the latter. I know that there's no reason to even refute this drivel, but I'd like to do it just a tiny bit for fun.
1) Answered already by the commentors.
2) So I guess that the trans-Atlantic slave trade (and the decimation of the natives) started and continued for hundreds of years while Europeans were still pagans. Thank goodness that Europeans converted in the early 1800s.
3) Wow...there is some evidence that Pontius Pilate lived and some places from the Bible existed! But I'm sure that this time, God didn't plant that evidence there like he planted the dinosaur fossils that appear to be millions of years old, or the Homo erectus skeletons, both of which are tricks played by God to put doubt in our minds...
4) The title is "How to shut up an atheist". Far from freedom of speech, I bet this guy wishes that we couldn't even open our mouths.
5) Again, universal human rights didn't come from the bible. Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason", 1793: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. "All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
6) As I posted a few weeks, ago, Stalin and Mao were the "near-dieties" of the "personality cults". They could do no wrong, supposedly, and nobody could be an outspoken "freethinker" and acknowledge any of their wrongdoings. This sounds a lot like religion to me. Furthermore, besides the figures probably not being true, even if they were, it's not fair to compare the population of the 20th century (in the billions) to the population of past centuries (under 1 billion before 1800). One thing is for sure, Christians completely (and nearly-completely) wiped out whole cultures, including heretics and Native Americans.
Only 6? I'm just getting started!
Rob.
· 2 years ago
1. So, why then, do we have to fight Christians at every turn about scientific discoveries. If these very smart Christians (I'll give the apologist the benefit of the doubt for the sake of the arguement) can accept science AS IS, why do regular X-ians have a problem?
2. Slavery was abolished by devout (ie Fundie) Christians.....Um, I think they mean the heretical Unitarians, lead by Henry David Thoreau. You know, the ones who have claimed God is ONE, not 3. Those were the good guys, compared to the southern "Christians" who used religion ot keep the slaves molified.
3. How many novels are based on historical events, but with fictional main charatcers? Please. So, because Kennedy and the the smiley face are real, so is Forrest Gump? Must be true, it's in the book AND movie.
4. Period? Yeah, Thomas Jefferson, who made up his own Bible because the original sucked so much, wanted a Fundie Nation.....The ENLIGHTENMENT, based on art and science is the real beginning of liberty, not the Bible (which had enslaved the individual for centuries. Exclamation Point!
5. Enlightenment, from people looking beyond the limited morality of the one fickle deity.
6. Sorry, murder and shutting up individuals is not a pissing contest..."Oh, your evil is worse than our evil, so we win." Plus, the current American atheist would have been thrwon in jail and murdered by those monsters, because they could not tolerate, just like most Christians, freedom of speech.
Oops, no fat lady yet.....guess she is tired of the Christians telling her that her prefession is evil and sinful (ie the fine arts).
That book, I hope, will be shelved in the bookstore where it belongs, the HUMOR SECTION. Period.
Ryan
· 2 years ago
Well, here the fuck we go again. We have these interchanges pretty regularly here, don't we? This happened recently at "The Violent Heritage of Christianity" now in the archives.
I do not know who the author of this piece is, or what TownHall is, and I do not care. And I would like to meet the xian who can shut me up.
The xian needs to tell us how great xianity has been, and has been responsible for the world's good. As I often tire of pointing out, the "good xians" are those who have been modified by secular influence. That is why they did such lovely things as abolishing the slave trade. Also mentioned by TownHall is the credit given to xianity for democracy, specifically mentioned were freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
TownHall--whoever the fuck you are--the bible does not teach democracy. The bible does not teach freedom. The bible does not teach rights. The bible teaches that we are sinners and that we deserve to burn in hell for eternity. Modern xians (if that is not a contradiction in terms) have tried to get away from their shameful past and at least try to sound like civilized people. Read about Michael Servetus and tell me that xianity teaches freedom.
We constantly hear that atheistic systems are far more evil than xianity, that communism was far more evil than the church. That is missing the fucking point. I am not interested in participating in some body-count mentality. The point is that, considering xianity's bloody past, they have eagerly and successfully disqualified themselves from any claim to being god's people.
Study, if you please, the persecution of jews; heretics; witches (oh right, the xians are such great scientists. Witches, indeed)the wars against the muslims; the subjugation of the Irish; the slaughter of Native Americans. The xian church is not god's people, and it is a red herring to endlessly bring up Marx; Nietzsche; Darwin; Freud; Lenin; Hitler; Stalin and Pol Pot. I do not care if all the evil in the world can be traced back to atheists. The fact remains that xians are not god's people.
And study, if you will, the centuries of warfare in Europe, xian verses xian. This shit alone disqualifies the churches. Read about Joan of Arc and tell me how great the xians were. The Thirty Year's War. Saint Bartholomew's Day.
Now try to shut me up.
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
Oh joy, they're getting scared, I shall enjoy tearing through their counter-arguments like the tissue paper it is.
boomSLANG
· 2 years ago
Notice, not too "scared", or stupid, to adopt a pseudonym, though.
Now where are those "counter-arguments", Christian???
ellytoad
· 2 years ago
So it's the people who represent Christianity, and not the Bible itself, that determines the "truth" of it now. Oooo-kay.
Spirula
· 2 years ago
BTW, Issac Newton did not believe in the Trinity. This would have made him a heretic in virtually all Christian denominations.
But, hey, who expects anybody at Clownhall to fact check. If Dinesh is a contributor, the critical thinking bar has got to be set pretty low.
I am amused that Christian argumentation has now eroded down to a "who's the worser" numbers games a la mass killings. (Let alone the fact that the atheism of Stalin et. al. had nothing to do with the extermination of real or potential dissidents, unlike Christian exterminations which were based on their religious beliefs.)
Ryan
· 2 years ago
Some of you history buffs out there may need to help me with this, but I want to bring up a few details about any pissing contest between communists and xians.
In pre-revolutionary Russia, life for the common man stunk. Had I lived in such a place, at such a time, I daresay I would have been a Red myself.
The most miserable form of life was the serfs. They were slaves; bought and sold like cattle. Their owners, the landowners--called the boyars--could do as they pleased with their serfs. They could rape their wives and daughters; they could kill them. And all this was sanctioned by the orthodox church.
Pogroms swept through Russia, again and again, with the priesthood standing by with their thumbs up their asses.
Have you ever debated a Marxist? Try telling him about the governments of the Soviet Union, China, Nort Korea et al, and he'll tell you just as quickly about the horrors found in xian/capitalist countries: slavery; child labor; poverty. I never won a debate against a Marxist.
Jeremiah
· 2 years ago
Wow! When I first read this, I thought it was a joke, but when I looked up the authors, I realized it wasn't! And then I saw so many of the reviewers agreeing with the authors! Ugh! I used to think Satan was the father of lies, but it seems that the apologists are the real father of lies.
I just finished reading "god is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens and he refutes virtually everything of the original post.
The more I read, the more I realize that atheists know the Bible better than "Christians." The atheists, agnostics, and skeptics that I've met in my studies all seem to be dedicated to finding and spreading the truth through reason and logic; whereas the Christians who post on this web site and others couldn't have read their Bibles and are dedicated to perpetuating delusions because they are unwilling to think for themselves.
In the words of Christopher Hitchens "Religion Poisons Everything."
sscianni
· 2 years ago
Just yesterday I heard D'Souza speak at a local church. Being back in the "house of god" was bad enough, but this gentleman made it intolerable.
There was not a molecule of scholastic integrity. It was a circus for the masses, a typical mega-church "show" filled with mischaracterizations, half-truths, plain falsehoods, emotional appeals, and choir giggling one-liners. D'Souza is a joke.
Just a "heads up" - D'Souza and Hitchens debate tonight at The King's College. It looks like it will stream here,
http://www.tkc.edu/debate/
...and apparently CSPAN will air it next weekend.
Richard M
· 2 years ago
I think this post makes clear some of the problems involved in countering Christian claims and, perhaps, some of the reasons for Christianity's success. Consider what they say:
* "The greatest scientific geniuses in history were Christians"
Now consider what we have to say to counter this:
* "Actually thats untrue. Einstein was Jewish, as was Freud. Edison was a nonbeliever. (More examples x,y,z). Besides, even if they were, what we may have here is an example of 'true, true, and unrelated.' If you wish to make this argument, you are going to have to show that (a) of the widely-agreed-upon list of top scientists, the large majority were Christians, (b) that moreover, most were Christians in the same sense that *you* are -- i.e., evangelical, and believed in things like Biblical inerrancy, and most importantly (c) that the fact of their Christinity had a significant connection to their work as scientists. If establish all of those claims, then you might have an argument worth considering. Otherwise, this is just rhetoric."
See the difference? What I said was far more accurate and about as fair as you could ask for.... but it lacks the punch and emotional power of the first.
We are trying to meet sound bites with rational argument. No wonder it is an uphill battle.
Richard
Dave8
· 2 years ago
On this thread's topic; pure propaganda and disinformation.
Ask a Christian to define propaganda, and then follow that up with, how they can remove the bible, or this Town Hall fiction from such a definition... they'll likely stutter.
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
These arguments against the atheist are simply intellectually dishonest and aren't worthy of refuting. It's unbelievable how hypocritical christian's are. They are cleary being deceptive and that goes against their very own supposed belief system.
Michelle
· 2 years ago
Am I the only one who thinks this article is tongue-in-cheek?
Moonpearl
· 2 years ago
Forgive me for being pissy pouty screechy sweaty fat and female even, not to mention over-intellectual but too stupid to be able to patch over "apparent" biblical contradictions. Forgive me for running around in circles and asking my cute little questions and for being hurt when ignored, put down, told I'm pissy pouty screechy fat, stupid, overly-intellectual and FEMALE. It's obvious I'm just a satan-infested trouble-making and hateful person out to undermine the faith of the simple flock, and I don't have any right to speak out against what is so obviously the one and only truth. Forget about science, who caused the inquisition and all of that, just have faith. How dare I wage war against the faithful by asking questions or for thinking that perhaps I might deserve a bit of respect when I disagree with the one and only truth - eh? Sorry, no respect for the hell-bound. Yeah, great arguments - I am just so totally convinced now! Too bad such eloquent and consistent reasoning didn't come my way before this! Uh, oh wait a minute, it was always this kind of eloquent reasoning but I'm just a fat woman who screeches (that is me you hear singing) so what do I know? Oh, sorry, I had better shut up, otherwise I am being disrespectful to people's faith and their right to evangelize me to the truth. (Oh, btw, do I get any credit for having lost 20 pounds?)
Aspentroll
· 2 years ago
It seems the doomsdayers are getting worried. A lot more people are not running frightened to church anymore.
I would say they are financialy worried, perhaps the collection plates are less full.
Next they'll blame the "godless" for problems at Oral Roberts University. What's going to happen if Jaybus doesn't come back here this year like they predict? That'll be our fault too. Maybe the "rapture" will be ruptured.
They are running scared guys. they are running scared.
bdp
· 2 years ago
it's definitely not tongue-in-cheek - I went to the source website and it's a neo-con religious right enclave, Bill Bennett and Michael Medved are a couple of the other columnists there. This columnist is a young 'in-your-face-for-Christ' type, the kind that just makes me want to laugh right out loud.
boomSLANG
· 2 years ago
Am I the only one who thinks this article is tongue-in-cheek?
I'm sorry to report that the author is a real, flesh-n-blood.... and uh, "soul", Christian fundamentalist.
wow. yeah.... without repeating what other people said, this article is dead wrong and they are quite obnoxious and cocky in their ignorance. it actually made me laugh out loud. they act as though there is going to be a big revolution and they are going to crush the atheists. like an ant thinking it can take on a bull.
Monk
· 2 years ago
To Ryan:
If you haven't already, check out Spain under Francisco Franco. You'll find lots of goodies about the Church. As an example, you'll find members of the catholic clergy giving out the straight arm fascist salute before Franco (for practical reasons more than ideology) abolished it.
It's not just Franco's era. The whole history of Spain and the Catholic Church is fascinating.
Brent S
· 2 years ago
The author mentions how some archeology discoveries had confirmed the existence of people or locations mentioned in the Bible. Fine. I once had this argument with a Christian and kindly pointed out that Heinrich Schliemann found the ruins of Troy in the 1870's. Under Christian reasoning, this must prove that the Iliad is true and Gods such as Zeus, Athena etc. must also be real.
Needless to say, this helpful piece of "witnessing" by myself was not well appreciated. For shame.
twincats
· 2 years ago
Paraphrasing the original post:
How to shut up an atheist?
1. Lie for Jesus
2. Lie for Jesus some more
repeat as necessary
Ryan
· 2 years ago
Thanx Monk. I really would like to see photographs of those salutes. I plan to get to the library.
And I forgot to bring up the KKK. I live in what used to be the heart of klan country (Indiana)and these people maintained a xristian testimony that was downright touching. They loved their savior. Loved god with all their heart.
Monk
· 2 years ago
Ryan:
I originally saw the pictures in a book, "The Story of Spain" by Mark Willams, but here's a link to the photo that I found online. I can't vouch for the website one way or another, but it's the same photo that I saw in the book.
Sorry, I also forgot to mention that the reason that was relevant to what you originally asked was because Spain's brand of socialism came to despise the type of communism that was sprouting up everywhere else. Also, there brand of fascism deviated somewhat from Hitler's and Mussolini's (though it was still fascist). Spain has always been a unique place. The author I mentioned previously repeats over and over how "Spain was being 'different' again."
The religious side of Spain is also fascinating. It's the only COUNTRY (still in existence today) that has been ruled by both Muslims and Christians at various times in its history. (I'm excluding places like Jerusalem in that comment).
Sorry for the digression. Just bringing it up in case you might be interested.
Thanx again, Monk. That photo at the very beginning was just the juicy perversity I was looking for.
Monk
· 2 years ago
You're most welcome.
Happy hunting.
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
While we're on the subject of Xtian body count, let's not forget the Taiping Rebellion in China that was the bloodiest wars in history. That war was indeed Christian, in every way shape and form.
Anonymous
· 2 years ago
yay for the roast...
1. yes, but they were Raised christian and Raised to believe what the bible and the chruch told them. of course they were christian, but does that mean their theories would have changed where they not christian.
2. and who supported slavery? those who where the pregenitors to the modern Southern Baptist and Born-Again churches
3. so you can prove to me the red sea did split? or was it the reed sea?
4. these are alos the same countries where abortion doctors are killed in the streets and more hate-crimes are committed that are justified by christianity than all other nations. you want a nation with free speach, low crime rate, and a smarter, more coherent society? go to Japan!
5. Paul, the apostle, condones the killing of "unbelievers". And God, great killer of the world, has drowned the world, told people to kill sons, other cultures, and in Revelations says, essentially, "y'all die and go to hell"
6. Stalin was superstitious as hell, Hitler spent half of his life looking for the Holy Grail. Mao was from a different culture, not christian, but more idealist. My point is that the deaths in the crusades, in the inquisitions, were horrendous, and have been horrible downplayed by the church(es). there is also all the other deaths, including Salem Witch Trials, the civilization that Cortez destroyed with the help of "his queen and God".
All Comments
So...the bible was used to justify slavery, adn then it was used to abolish slavery. Hmm. Okay.
But not surprising, because I have seen a lot of things interpreted one way in the bible, and then in the opposite way.
It's the willingness of the Christian apologists to engage in this kind of bald-faced lying that disgusts me about them.
Having read the reviews, I'm pretty sure that D'Souza and Hutchinson's books are not all that much better at dealing with the truth.
[When the prissy anti-Christs tell you the Bible stands in the way of science, inform them that the greatest scientific geniuses in history were devout Christians—and scientists from Newton to Einstein insisted that biblical religion provided the key ideas from which experimental science could develop.]
I now see that my original assumption wasn't very far away from the actual title.
However, it could be argued that people find a religion that fits them rather than adapting to a religion. In this sense, people can be good Christians, but it is their human nature, not their religion that makes them what they are.
And since the late 1940's Europe has become less war-like as the Clergy's influence has dwindled away.
D'Souza's one of our more rabid Xian Apologists, isn't he?
To the Christian...
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.
For religious and Christian political leaders...
George Bernard Shaw: "But no public man...ever believes that the Bible means what it says: he is always convinced that it says what he means."
For those who want to use scientists for their cause…
Thomas Edison: "My mind is incapable of conceiving such a thing as a soul. I may be in error, and man may have a soul, but I simply do not believe it."
Johannes Kepler: Once miracles are admitted, every scientific explanation is out of the question."
Albert Einstein: "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere."
Sigmund Freud: "Our knowledge of the historical worth of certain religious doctrines increases our respect for them, but does not invalidate our proposal that they should cease to be put forward as the reasons for the precepts of civilization.... We may now argue that the time has probably come...for replacing the effect of repression by the results of the rational operation of the intellect."
Wow, this guy is so full of CRAP(Christians Reciting Absurd Propoganda)
I'd like to know the "real" stats, not just from the Christian perspective, and to be fair, include all those who have been killed by Christians in the name of or for the cause of Christianity.
I remain a pretty unimpressed by some of the examples of theist scientists. Some of them are pretty far back in the history of science. I think the fundamentalist Christians make a big deal about the faith of Sir Isac Newton … who also believed in astrology and was obsessed with alchemy.
Hopefully as humans become more enlightened they will reluctantly drop, one by one, such superstitions as special creation, young earth theory, virgin birth, the resurrection of the dead and a Big Daddy God. Don’t hold your breath however.
According to a survey of scientists who are members of the US National Academy of Sciences (NAS).
“The question of religious belief among US scientists has been debated since early in the century. Our latest survey (1998) finds that, among the top natural scientists, disbelief is greater than ever — almost total.
In 1996, we repeated Leuba's 1914 survey and reported our results in Nature [3]. We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents.”
Edward J. Larson
Department of History, University of Georgia,
Athens, Georgia 30602-6012, USA
e-mail:edlarson@uga.edu
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html
The author reports "near universal rejection" of the transcendent by NAS natural scientists. Overall, 93 percent of NAS scientists do not profess a belief in God (72.2 percent disbelief, 20.8 agnostic), I don’t see any compelling reason to believe in any reversal in these figures since '98.
Of course after the Rapture, it may be a different matter. BTW I am personally looking forward to the Rapture… or any excuse to get all those Born Again Assholes off the planet. Think of what it would do for world peace!
Peace,
Bob Boldt
So how about the world being 6,000 years old. Come forward and address that you mental midget. I dare you!
1) Answered already by the commentors.
2) So I guess that the trans-Atlantic slave trade (and the decimation of the natives) started and continued for hundreds of years while Europeans were still pagans. Thank goodness that Europeans converted in the early 1800s.
3) Wow...there is some evidence that Pontius Pilate lived and some places from the Bible existed! But I'm sure that this time, God didn't plant that evidence there like he planted the dinosaur fossils that appear to be millions of years old, or the Homo erectus skeletons, both of which are tricks played by God to put doubt in our minds...
4) The title is "How to shut up an atheist". Far from freedom of speech, I bet this guy wishes that we couldn't even open our mouths.
5) Again, universal human rights didn't come from the bible. Thomas Paine, "The Age of Reason", 1793: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
6) As I posted a few weeks, ago, Stalin and Mao were the "near-dieties" of the "personality cults". They could do no wrong, supposedly, and nobody could be an outspoken "freethinker" and acknowledge any of their wrongdoings. This sounds a lot like religion to me. Furthermore, besides the figures probably not being true, even if they were, it's not fair to compare the population of the 20th century (in the billions) to the population of past centuries (under 1 billion before 1800). One thing is for sure, Christians completely (and nearly-completely) wiped out whole cultures, including heretics and Native Americans.
Only 6? I'm just getting started!
2. Slavery was abolished by devout (ie Fundie) Christians.....Um, I think they mean the heretical Unitarians, lead by Henry David Thoreau. You know, the ones who have claimed God is ONE, not 3. Those were the good guys, compared to the southern "Christians" who used religion ot keep the slaves molified.
3. How many novels are based on historical events, but with fictional main charatcers? Please. So, because Kennedy and the the smiley face are real, so is Forrest Gump? Must be true, it's in the book AND movie.
4. Period? Yeah, Thomas Jefferson, who made up his own Bible because the original sucked so much, wanted a Fundie Nation.....The ENLIGHTENMENT, based on art and science is the real beginning of liberty, not the Bible (which had enslaved the individual for centuries. Exclamation Point!
5. Enlightenment, from people looking beyond the limited morality of the one fickle deity.
6. Sorry, murder and shutting up individuals is not a pissing contest..."Oh, your evil is worse than our evil, so we win." Plus, the current American atheist would have been thrwon in jail and murdered by those monsters, because they could not tolerate, just like most Christians, freedom of speech.
Oops, no fat lady yet.....guess she is tired of the Christians telling her that her prefession is evil and sinful (ie the fine arts).
That book, I hope, will be shelved in the bookstore where it belongs, the HUMOR SECTION. Period.
I do not know who the author of this piece is, or what TownHall is, and I do not care. And I would like to meet the xian who can shut me up.
The xian needs to tell us how great xianity has been, and has been responsible for the world's good. As I often tire of pointing out, the "good xians" are those who have been modified by secular influence. That is why they did such lovely things as abolishing the slave trade. Also mentioned by TownHall is the credit given to xianity for democracy, specifically mentioned were freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
TownHall--whoever the fuck you are--the bible does not teach democracy. The bible does not teach freedom. The bible does not teach rights. The bible teaches that we are sinners and that we deserve to burn in hell for eternity. Modern xians (if that is not a contradiction in terms) have tried to get away from their shameful past and at least try to sound like civilized people. Read about Michael Servetus and tell me that xianity teaches freedom.
We constantly hear that atheistic systems are far more evil than xianity, that communism was far more evil than the church. That is missing the fucking point. I am not interested in participating in some body-count mentality. The point is that, considering xianity's bloody past, they have eagerly and successfully disqualified themselves from any claim to being god's people.
Study, if you please, the persecution of jews; heretics; witches (oh right, the xians are such great scientists. Witches, indeed)the wars against the muslims; the subjugation of the Irish; the slaughter of Native Americans. The xian church is not god's people, and it is a red herring to endlessly bring up Marx; Nietzsche; Darwin; Freud; Lenin; Hitler; Stalin and Pol Pot. I do not care if all the evil in the world can be traced back to atheists. The fact remains that xians are not god's people.
And study, if you will, the centuries of warfare in Europe, xian verses xian. This shit alone disqualifies the churches. Read about Joan of Arc and tell me how great the xians were. The Thirty Year's War. Saint Bartholomew's Day.
Now try to shut me up.
Now where are those "counter-arguments", Christian???
But, hey, who expects anybody at Clownhall to fact check. If Dinesh is a contributor, the critical thinking bar has got to be set pretty low.
I am amused that Christian argumentation has now eroded down to a "who's the worser" numbers games a la mass killings. (Let alone the fact that the atheism of Stalin et. al. had nothing to do with the extermination of real or potential dissidents, unlike Christian exterminations which were based on their religious beliefs.)
In pre-revolutionary Russia, life for the common man stunk. Had I lived in such a place, at such a time, I daresay I would have been a Red myself.
The most miserable form of life was the serfs. They were slaves; bought and sold like cattle. Their owners, the landowners--called the boyars--could do as they pleased with their serfs. They could rape their wives and daughters; they could kill them. And all this was sanctioned by the orthodox church.
Pogroms swept through Russia, again and again, with the priesthood standing by with their thumbs up their asses.
Have you ever debated a Marxist? Try telling him about the governments of the Soviet Union, China, Nort Korea et al, and he'll tell you just as quickly about the horrors found in xian/capitalist countries: slavery; child labor; poverty. I never won a debate against a Marxist.
I just finished reading "god is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens and he refutes virtually everything of the original post.
The more I read, the more I realize that atheists know the Bible better than "Christians." The atheists, agnostics, and skeptics that I've met in my studies all seem to be dedicated to finding and spreading the truth through reason and logic; whereas the Christians who post on this web site and others couldn't have read their Bibles and are dedicated to perpetuating delusions because they are unwilling to think for themselves.
In the words of Christopher Hitchens "Religion Poisons Everything."
There was not a molecule of scholastic integrity. It was a circus for the masses, a typical mega-church "show" filled with mischaracterizations, half-truths, plain falsehoods, emotional appeals, and choir giggling one-liners. D'Souza is a joke.
Just a "heads up" - D'Souza and Hitchens debate tonight at The King's College. It looks like it will stream here,
http://www.tkc.edu/debate/
...and apparently CSPAN will air it next weekend.
* "The greatest scientific geniuses in history were Christians"
Now consider what we have to say to counter this:
* "Actually thats untrue. Einstein was Jewish, as was Freud. Edison was a nonbeliever. (More examples x,y,z). Besides, even if they were, what we may have here is an example of 'true, true, and unrelated.' If you wish to make this argument, you are going to have to show that (a) of the widely-agreed-upon list of top scientists, the large majority were Christians, (b) that moreover, most were Christians in the same sense that *you* are -- i.e., evangelical, and believed in things like Biblical inerrancy, and most importantly (c) that the fact of their Christinity had a significant connection to their work as scientists. If establish all of those claims, then you might have an argument worth considering. Otherwise, this is just rhetoric."
See the difference? What I said was far more accurate and about as fair as you could ask for.... but it lacks the punch and emotional power of the first.
We are trying to meet sound bites with rational argument. No wonder it is an uphill battle.
Richard
Ask a Christian to define propaganda, and then follow that up with, how they can remove the bible, or this Town Hall fiction from such a definition... they'll likely stutter.
I would say they are financialy worried, perhaps the collection plates are less full.
Next they'll blame the "godless" for problems at
Oral Roberts University.
What's going to happen if Jaybus doesn't come back here this year like they predict? That'll be our fault too. Maybe the "rapture" will be ruptured.
They are running scared guys. they are running scared.
I'm sorry to report that the author is a real, flesh-n-blood.... and uh, "soul", Christian fundamentalist.
Speaking of, here he is in action....Kermit the frog meets spaghetti-arms.
If you haven't already, check out Spain under Francisco Franco. You'll find lots of goodies about the Church. As an example, you'll find members of the catholic clergy giving out the straight arm fascist salute before Franco (for practical reasons more than ideology) abolished it.
It's not just Franco's era. The whole history of Spain and the Catholic Church is fascinating.
Needless to say, this helpful piece of "witnessing" by myself was not well appreciated. For shame.
How to shut up an atheist?
1. Lie for Jesus
2. Lie for Jesus some more
repeat as necessary
And I forgot to bring up the KKK. I live in what used to be the heart of klan country (Indiana)and these people maintained a xristian testimony that was downright touching. They loved their savior. Loved god with all their heart.
I originally saw the pictures in a book, "The Story of Spain" by Mark Willams, but here's a link to the photo that I found online. I can't vouch for the website one way or another, but it's the same photo that I saw in the book.
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/NaziLeadership.html
Sorry, I also forgot to mention that the reason that was relevant to what you originally asked was because Spain's brand of socialism came to despise the type of communism that was sprouting up everywhere else. Also, there brand of fascism deviated somewhat from Hitler's and Mussolini's (though it was still fascist). Spain has always been a unique place. The author I mentioned previously repeats over and over how "Spain was being 'different' again."
The religious side of Spain is also fascinating. It's the only COUNTRY (still in existence today) that has been ruled by both Muslims and Christians at various times in its history. (I'm excluding places like Jerusalem in that comment).
Sorry for the digression. Just bringing it up in case you might be interested.
http://rationalrevolution.net/war/condition_of_modern_american_soc.htm
You'll have to scroll down to see the pictures.
Happy hunting.
1. yes, but they were Raised christian and Raised to believe what the bible and the chruch told them. of course they were christian, but does that mean their theories would have changed where they not christian.
2. and who supported slavery? those who where the pregenitors to the modern Southern Baptist and Born-Again churches
3. so you can prove to me the red sea did split? or was it the reed sea?
4. these are alos the same countries where abortion doctors are killed in the streets and more hate-crimes are committed that are justified by christianity than all other nations. you want a nation with free speach, low crime rate, and a smarter, more coherent society? go to Japan!
5. Paul, the apostle, condones the killing of "unbelievers". And God, great killer of the world, has drowned the world, told people to kill sons, other cultures, and in Revelations says, essentially, "y'all die and go to hell"
6. Stalin was superstitious as hell, Hitler spent half of his life looking for the Holy Grail. Mao was from a different culture, not christian, but more idealist. My point is that the deaths in the crusades, in the inquisitions, were horrendous, and have been horrible downplayed by the church(es). there is also all the other deaths, including Salem Witch Trials, the civilization that Cortez destroyed with the help of "his queen and God".