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Best of luck to you
nina epiccolo
**** UPDATE *** You can download a free excerpt!
*****************************************************************
Hey everyone, sorry for "blogdicking" (for those not familiar, that means you reply to the very first post so your reply is at the top of all the other replies! :-D) but I wanted to let you know that people asked for something and so I delivered. You can now download a free excerpt (it's in PDF format) of the book to give you an idea of what it's all about. Here it is:
http://www.reasonablepress.com/XianNoMoreExcerp...
--Jeff Mark
Clair
Jeff
Jeff
Obviously, people who are sensitive and thoughtful as Jeff can be seriously damaged by Christianity.
It just reminded me of abusive relationships (not the first time, but it just struck me again) where for instance a battered woman wants to leave her husband/SO/abuser because she is afraid of him, and tired of the abuse, but at the same time afraid of something "worse" happening (he's going to kill her, her children, her pet, etc)...but eventually it may reach that point where they decide for their own safety/sanity they have to just say no and make a break for it...
Deconversion stories are very important and need a higher place in our online community.
More importantly, the thing that should choke every Bible believer is the idea that one could reach God(s) by building a brick and mortar tower. I don't know how high such a tower could theoretically reach. But it would be puny compared to modern skyscrapers! So those of you who have been in the world's tallest buildings--you have already been to heaven!
The Tower of Bable was so tall that it had to reach the clouds, where god walks.
The part they left out in the story, is the day that they decided it's final height, was the same day that became later known as..........
You ready for this?
Ground Fog Day
ATF (Who can explain away all bible problems in just this manner)
So then which one of these died on the cross, The "God" or The "Man"?
I would caution you to be MOST careful how you answer this one.
ATF (Who's personal answer would be, NEITHER)
A monotheistic religion with multiple personality disorder.
Son, I'm sending you on a suicide mission -- I mean me -- to save the world. (Jesus on the cross) Father why do you forsake me -- I mean why do I forsake me? Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.
--S.
Erm...can you provide me the details of which university,department and professor?
The Egyptians believed they had multiple souls - since they are all invisible does that mean they exist?
Here is the logic of your argument,
a,) evidence of Triune God
b.) because human beings have 3parts (unsubtantiated)
c.) evidence is psychology class (deeply doubtful)
d.) 2 parts are invisible and hence Holy Spirit and God invisible (non-sequitor circular argument)
Here is what I think - if God was triune in the Bible and it is very important to christian faith - He would have made it Extremely CLEAR in the BIble. SO that you need not wrap your head around to find arguments like this to justify the trinity.
If God can tell you that the mustard seed is the smallest seed, that Pi=3 and that you should never mix strands from differnt cloths - he would have made ample sapce to clarify that we would wish his believers to believe in the trinity.
You would have an arsenal of Bible quotes to help you out right now and not this argument which rests ultimately on whether your psychology class really says we are made of 3 parts.
ATF~~~
"So then which one died on the cross, "the God" or "the man?"
Well, in this case God was the man. Jesus died on the cross. He was fully-God, fully-man. This is somewhat incomprehendible, because we as humans have finite minds, and can't fully fathom an infinite God. If He was a God that we could understand, then that would kind of defeat the point of Him being "God"
Sconner~~~
see the above answer
Monkeys~~~
You love to argue, don't you? haha, well I have a teacher who took a psychology class who told it to me. I am not sure the name of the course or school, but it is more widely known, actually. There are several people that I have heard this theory from, but if you would really like, I will ask her if she knows the name of the college course or something to proove my statement. I don't know it off of the top of my head.
"he would have made ample sapce to clarify that we would wish his believers to believe in the trinity."
Isaiah 48:16b "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit." This is the Son saying that the Father has sent him with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 4: 14-21 "14And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.15And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
So when the Bible says LORD, it is referring to God, the Father. The LORD sent Jesus to do all of the above stated, together with the Holy Spirit.
Thanks again, Monkeys, for conversation. Please, stop making me feel worthless, though. Let's keep it clean.
I see, so you got the evidence from a second hand source. Not suprising - could you also ask her the name of the theory that differentiates a person ONLY into body soul and spirit?
It is strange that the analogies you are using to describe the creator are that of limited material beings that have been supposedly created by him. It seems folly to describe infinite God in those limited terms.
None of the verses you gave give clear evidence for the trinity. futhermore this description you have given is not the doctrine of trinity either. (reminds me of the "discussion" we hava bout the big bang)
Definition of the doctrine of the trinity: that God exists as three persons (Father, Son and Holy spirit) but with the same/similar substance
Holy Ghost = God
Son = God
Father = God
Each of them are God independent of each other hence the Son is different from the father and both are different from the Holy Ghost.
All your verses show is jesus saying that God has sent the holy spirit with him. Not that jesus and the holy spirit are of an equal in a trinity with God the father. The Holy Spirit is also not equated as being of an equal substance as God the father or Jesus the Son. Furthermore it could be interpreted that divinity is bestowed and not innate to jesus the son. or that the divinity is of a lesser kind. Your verse is not substantive enough to make any case for the trinity.
Nowhere is the word "Trinity" mentioned in the Old testament or the new testament. Indeed it was only after huge and oftentimes violent debate amongst different early Xtian sects that the "trinitarian doctrine" was accepted in the Nicene creed in 325- several hundred years after Christ's death.
If God is a Trinity - then certain verses dont make sense.
John 14:1 Jesus comforts his disciples and states to trust in God (Trinity of three persons) , and also him.
Why would Jesus ask the disciples to trust him in a separate statement if he held that God was a Trinity. (He would already have been included in the term God)
You can find literally dozens of verses that contain this contradiction.
The doctrine of trinity was extrapolated from interpreting the bible to lend evidence to it - the doctrine of trinity is nowhere to be found describe in the Bible itself.
Thanks casey for constantly potraying the helpless victim - i am sure everybody symphatises with your persecution.
Just wanted to let you know that I responded to your response on another post entitled: I'm glad I'm leaving -- I have a whole new life - Testimonies of Ex-Christians. I hope we can carry on our conversation over there! Have a good one!
-Azazel
Thanks for writing about your deconversion. I'll definitely get your book as deconversion from the madness of Christianity is now, too, my life's passion. One of the most healing moments in this process is coming here and seeing HOW MANY of us there are. Until now, I walked around thinking I was the only loser who was "missing something" about the whole experience. Your book and others like it brings to light the lie of one of the biggest cults in the world :-) I'm glad we are both on "the other side" and can start to experience our true Selves, unencumbered by ridiculous fictional laws and fear-based belief systems.
Sam
And then I began really studying. I read as many books as I could, including books about ancient mythology. And that's when it all fell apart.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there seems to be a correlation with arming one's self with information and knowledge, that is the key to christianity's shackles -- who knew?
Wake up christian people: keep asking the big questions and never quench that thirst for knowledge -- keep studying and researching.
--S.
What's particularly interesting is the number of ex-Christians who left the religion only after becoming so devout that they were determined to learn everything they could about it. Many people I know left it after reading the whole Bible, sometimes twice over. And when you start to really study, especially topics like ancient mythology (including Ugaritic myths -- something every Christian should study), then it *really* becomes clear how untrue it all is.
Yeah, interestingly, enough, my journey started when a fundie christian gave me the book, More Than a Carpenter. I found the book rather, elementary and it left me wanting more information. I found out that the word translated as "carpenter" is TEKTON, a Greek word meaning "one who works with hands", in today's world, this word would more accurately reflect a day laborer -- not a carpenter. That got me thinking, what else is loosely translated? Additionally, all the christian books and stupid bumper stickers, that use the myth of Jesus being a carpenter, to make inane points, are rendered obsolete. Then, I read the whole bible, and moved to Bart D. Ehrman books and John Shelby Spong. I also read and studied Josephus and read a book called Remedial Christianity: What Every Believer Should Know about the Faith, but Probably Doesn't, by Paul Alan Laughlin. What's with the authors having three names? Anyway, this is when everything started to become crystal clear. I would be, what you might, call, a complacent religious person. I went to church, for a sense of community and never really understood the doctrines nor did I ask questions, but that all changed after the death of my son. I continue to educate myself and I have read more books in the last year in a half, than I have read my entire life.
--S.
Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding the truth. — Ludwig Borne
I really will want to read your book -- yes indeed, if we dare to venture beyond the cozy, blissful organized religion, we saw falsehoods and eventually we taught ourselves out of ignorance and into truth
These three feelings are very characteristic for Christians who actually read their bibles and think about the implications.
They also happen to be the three main pillars of clinical depression.
No wonder then that Jeff's story is not so unusual.
Mix together some abuse, some religion, and some depression...whew, what a cocktail (one that I lived with (and continue to as far as clinical depression/anxiety is concerned) for far too long)!
From where does your knowledge of this loving god come? Have you spoken with him personally? Has he responded in person? Did you discover him through another group, or perhaps, a book? If so, which group, or which book? Is it possible that you have imagined a new god to reconcile your desire for faith with the obvious dis conformities of those legalistic christians?
'Conversations with god' by N D Walsch? The Secret Doctrine by H Blavatsky? A Course in Miracles by H. Shucman? similar piles of shit? your fanciful imagination?
Please substantiate how you have "special access" to the True God?
Also note that imagination, delusions of grandeur or mental illness do not count.
Since God doesn't exist, you can make him up in whatever form you want. Apparently, the God you made is quite nice and is making you happy. It is too bad that it isn't real.
Nothing like inventing your own god to have a "much different relationship" with.
I put that idea right up there with someone who invents their own personalized space-alien to have a relationship with.
Now, being that YOU are a bonified 'true xtian', would you mind getting together with all the rest of these 'true xtians' we hear so much about (and from), and reconciling this confused bible book?
Once all of you true xtians establish this final version of the bible truth, I'm sure my compatriots here will be more than happy to "proof-read" it for you and discover any 'minor' errors within it.
What shall we name this new bible version by the way?
I have an idea, how about.........
"The true(er) words of god for 2008"---Limited Edtion
Note: Subject to change without notice
ATF (Who wonders how god will sanction this new true-xtian bible version though?)
For example, the Bible is incredibly demeaning to women in so many ways. Paul writes many times about the place of women in the church. And so I "fixed" that problem by believing that Paul's description of where women should be was actually less severe than the church previously allowed, and as such Paul was advancing women's rights. In other words, I adjusted the Bible to fit my beliefs. But in fact, that wasn't the case at all--Paul never said he was trying to advance women's rights, and he makes it very clear that women are, in his view, less important than men.
Another thing I did that I see so many people doing is I distinguished myself from others who "claimed" to be Christians, and I decided that although they called themselves Christians, it was a different religion from my Christianity. But again, the fact is, my beliefs didn't fit with what was actually in the Bible. And that's when it all started to fall apart. The more I read the Bible, the more I realized it wasn't what I believed.
I however have a relationship with a much different God who loves me and would never want me to feel so enslaved to legalism.
Oh, I know how you feel. I tell everyone, that I have a relationship with George Washington and he too, doesn't want me to feel enslaved by the politics of the day. No one understands, I know in my heart that George Washington, looks out for me and helps me make the right, moral and ethical decisions in my political career. I feel sorry for everyone, who doesn't know the true George Washington -- oh, if only, everyone, knew of the special relationship, I have with good ole' George. Maybe one day people will find their way to him.
--S.
So since you have--you wouldn't mislead us, would you?--a relationship with God or Christ or both, teach us how to move God and Christ out of the realm of the imaginary and into reality. While you are at it, Diane, since you have a loving relationship with God, tell us about him. Tell us what he looks like, what he sounds like, what he feels like.
On second thought, maybe you had better keep your relationship with God to yourself. There are just too many people who suspect the sanity of individuals who have "relationships" with imaginary characters.
I, myself, just deconverted and reading your story made me feel a whole lot better!
Just want to make a quick comment about something you stated.
"and so the cycle would continue: My friends would misbehave, but it was okay, because I wasn't allowed to judge them. But when I misbehaved, it was a sin. And indeed the church taught me I was a sinner and that I was a horrible person."
I can so relate to what you said.
All my life (even now), everyone else can misbehave and act like a bunch of toddlers, but whenever I do anything wrong (even if its the stupidest thing), I get a whole lotta anger directed at me and it pisses me off big time.
Anyways, thank you for your thought-out post and good luck with your book and future travels.
- TORM
About the tower of babel........how amusing. I have had this out with xristians before; those who are keen to prove creation and the flood and joshua's long day. After giving them time to rant, I ask them where the tower of babel is to be found. What follows is an embarrassed silence, while I gloat.
And diane, I have heard this shit about "we just didn't hear the right xristianity." Okay, me dear, let me ask you, where is it to be found? Exactly what church or denomination has the "right" xristianity? Is it your church? Do you attend the "right" church? Where is it to be found, and what is its name? Do respond if you are able.
Bye for now to my new friends.
The tower of babel is amusing. More than once I have been listening to a xristian who is "proving" the creation, the flood, joshua's long day, and so on. After letting them rant, I ask "where is the tower of babel?" What follows is an embarrassed silence, while I gloat.
diane, we have all heard this shit about how we just didn't hear the "right' xristianity. Okay, what church or denomination are you talking about? Where is this church to be found, and what is its name? Oh, is it your church? Do you have the "right"church? Do respond if you can. I can wait.
Bye for now. Have fun
And while I think about it: diane, I believe you appealed to your god's love. Please get it through your head that many of us get along just fine with the love of flesh and blood people. You need the love of some god because you have no one to love you. I have my wife, my sisters, and the dearest friends anyone ever had. I do not need whatever god it is you worship.
Just go to your options in Disqus and change your name there.
- TORM
You need to remember that most of the people were devout and pious with their faith.
Others were abused in Christianity and even bringing up can have some not so nice feelings for them.
You need to look at life through anothers POV before you can start even thinking of accusing others of what they believe.
- TORM
Yes, I completely understand what you are saying. The reason I decided to post a comment was not to stir up bad feelings, but to agree that their are many people who under the name Christian have done unspeakable things and have hurt others.....my own family has experienced GREAT pain from people who called have themselves Christians. In reality we are all just people capable of good and bad whether we call ourselves Christians or Ex-Christians we still make choices everyday that will effect other people. This is my point of view and though I may not understand everyones point of view to the fullest I am trying.
Thanks
Diane
Diane
The fact is, you're assuming we deconverted based on the behavior of other Christians, and you're dead wrong. We deconverted because we no longer see any good reasons to believe.
I hope you understand, because if you do, you're already ahead of the curve.
For four years after being kicked out of churches (plural), having been in small group and worship leadership, I tried to maintain faith - simply adjusting it to "Christianity isn't what you find in churches - it's a relationship" - but, after a while, I started asking myself, why did I think they (churches) were all wrong? That is what led to deep thinking about what my faith was built on.
I really, really believed that my faith was built on the Bible. I had read it all through many years ago, and there were many bits I simply didn't understand. I simply dismissed them as unimportant for the moment. But, when trying to find a biblical basis for my faith, I started to find contradictions in the Bible. How was that possible in what was supposed to be God's word? So where did the Bible come from? That was quite an eye-opener. The facts about who, when and why the Christian Bible looks the way it does completely blew away any concept of it being God's word - for a start the four main divisions of the church each have their own version with different books, different passages, different words and different punctuation. Which one is right? It seemed arrogant to simply say "the one I grew up with".
So if I couldn't rely on the Bible as a foundation, what else was there. I always enjoyed watching Derren Brown - then found his book. It showed how easy it is for us to fit our perceptions of the world around us to our expectations - which is fundamentally how he works. Well, the same is true of Christianity. If you expect to see God there, you will see "evidence" - and neatly bypass all the times where the evidence simply isn't there. If you don't think God is there - suddenly the evidence you thought you had evaporates.
Personally, I then felt (and still do to some extent) very angry about how the church (in its widest sense) had duped me for nigh on 30 years.
So the hurt was the catalyst for me rejecting Christianity, but not the reason.
My other half is at the point where she no longer trusts the Bible, but wants there to be a God, but can't find any evidence as to his existence or his qualities. She finds too many contradictions. People try to explain to her that God works in small things - but then she thinks "what a massively warped set of priorities this god must have, shifting things to make sure a meeting happens but doing nothing about the starving millions". Others try to explain the "majesty of God" - but then this becomes a discussion about injustice and a power-hungry, judgemental and somewhat capricious deity. Because she was brought up in Christianity, she is finding it extremely difficult to cope with what her head is now telling her - there is no God, it was all made up.
We all make mistakes. It's just that lots of people try to explain or justify their mistakes on the grounds that they thought it was what God wanted. God becomes a support for their own bigoted views. Yet no-one can explain what God is, what his purpose is, why it's so important that he demands perfection, or any other question about God. Every single answer ultimately boils down to "I feel that" - and that is the basis for the Christian faith. There is simply no evidence supporting it - and lots countering it.
Claim of "special access" to the True God has not yet been substantiated.
Also note that imagination, delusions of grandeur or mental illness do not count.
Unfortunately, I can't fit my entire experience into a few paragraphs. To understand my full experience and why I left, Diane, I challenge you to read the book. It will give you more understanding of why people are leaving. Don't worry about it trying to suck you away; you obviously have solid faith and so you have nothing to worry about, right? So instead, a book like this might help you understand our perception of your religion. But the thing that's missing in this discussion is that none of us left because of what somebody did to us. Yes, there was abuse on many levels (mine was primarily psychological; for others it was physical, even sexual). But that alone isn't what caused us to leave. That just angered us, and that anger brought out a determination to question things.
In my book, I admit that just because somebody doesn't *like* something doesn't make it untrue. In other words, I may not like Christianity, but just disliking it doesn't mean God and Jesus don't exist, right? But that anger and dislike is what led me to my deeper explorations about the roots of Christianity and where the ancient stories came from.
I studied the Bible in detail. I asked, Is the God in the Old Testament feasible? Is that *really* how a deity with the power to create an entire universe would behave? I noted that the characteristics (such as the barbaric justice system) were remarkably similar to that of the ancient tribal people of the time. Why is that? If we entertain the possibility that those ancient people *invented* these stories of God, it becomes clear.
But still, that's not enough. Again, it's not enough to shake one's faith. It didn't shake mine. So I studied more. It turns out, in the last 100 years, archeologists have uncovered ancient Ugaritic myths and they've managed to translate most of them. These myths predate the stories in the Old Testament. And we have even earlier stories from Babylonian culture. And both of these sets of myths have stories remarkably similar to those in the Old Testament, but involving other, multiple gods (i.e. they're part of polytheistic religions, and certainly not another form of ancient Judaism with just different names). Archeologists and other researchers proven beyond any doubt that these stories pre-date the earliest forms of the Hebrew myths. And archeologists and anthropologists have even been able to trace the movement of the beliefs as one culture adopted the beliefs of another -- in particular, the ancient Hebrew people absorbing the beliefs of the Ugarit people (i.e. Canaanites) and Babylonian people.
Combine that with what we know of science and how the stories in Genesis simply could not have occurred. The Universe is billions of years old. There simply wasn't a seven-day creation that started with a single man and woman. Not only do we know it didn't happen that way; we know it *couldn't* have happened that way. (There's no way, for example, that we could have so many genetic traits and still come from only two humans as recently as 6000 years ago. It's not possible.)
So it was the anger and hurt that led to the questioning, and that's when the *real* separation from the religion began. I would think that most people here would agree that they didn't just go running away because they were mad and hurt. We're stronger people than that, and a faith so strong as our Christianity couldn't be shaken from just some hurt feelings.
And how strong was our faith: Many people here, myself included, considered going into seminary to become ministers.
I am actually going to read your book for a better understanding of what you are talking about. You are correct in that information outside of my belief will not necessarily change what I believe to be true from my own personal experiences with God. However being informed of other points of view I believe is what Christians should do not for the point of preaching to anyone but to be able to fully love someone you need to understand where they are coming from. My comments about being hurt is only from what I've read here. I realize it would be quit silly to change your beliefs on feelings alone.
Regardless of your feelings of the book, I encourage you to leave an honest review on amazon. Thanks!
Diane, get a dictionary and look up the word "sarcasm." This should help you be able to interpret responses to your posts here. (Why is it that Christians cannot grasp sarcasm? It goes right over their heads.)
I devote several pages in my book to that topic. I'm not saying Diane did this, but so many Christians want to be persecuted (so they can feel proud for standing up for Jesus I guess), that they *hope* they'll be persecuted, and even go to great lengths to claim that there is widespread persecution against Christianity... Even though there isn't, at least not in the US. There may be isolated cases of people getting attacked for their beliefs, but there isn't widespread persecution.
It sure does! Do they understand myths? Allegories? Symbolism? Personification? Imagery? Fiction vs Non-Fiction? Nope. Since most of them take their bible literally, literalism is the only "style" they can accept and understand....well, not exactly "UNDERSTAND", but you get my drift... ;-)
First of all, we don't 'believe in nothing.' The opposite of "your pet god" is not "nothing." Way to wave your arrogance around, though.
Secondly, your favorite god does not get any special treatment in the "gods are fiction" department. Do you believe in every god ever invented? Not believing in everyone else's gods, for you, requires as much "faith" as not believing in santa or bigfoot, doesn't it?
Or, put another way, does it require a great deal of faith for you to "not believe" in leprechauns, Diane? If I babbled on and on about my special relationship and grand experiences with delightful little leprechauns and you politely nodded but went your way thinking I was a fruit loop, is that because you are sad unfortunate person who is exercising "faith in nothing?" If I ran after you proclaiming you were missing out on a joyful relationship with magical tiny green irish pixies, would that demonstrate to you that leprechauns are real? Or would you pity the depth of my delusion all the more.
Diane, consider this: The other night I dreamed I was with friends and we rode on a brand new kind of airplane that took us up into space. In the morning it seemed very real to me. In fact, it felt so real, I had to work to convince myself it was only a dream. But really, it could have been real, couldn't it? Could it be that in this dream I stepped over into an alternate universe where this space ship really exists? I would like to make the claim that I experienced this alternate universe and that this space ship really exists.
So do you believe it's real? Nobody has ever seen it in real life. It existed only in my dream. But considering how real it was to me, I could easily make the mental leap and say that this alternate universe and spaceship I experienced was real.
Do you believe in it? I doubt it. And if not, does it take faith for you to not believe in it?
Of course not. You simply don't believe in it. You don't have to put your faith in anything at all, because you don't believe it's real. (And neither do I; I'm just making a point here for argument's sake. I wasn't really in an alternate universe. I hope.)
The same is true with religion. You believe in one of the several thousand gods that have been written about, and have faith that that particular god exists. I don't. I don' t need faith to "not" believe. I just don't believe in it.
One Christian was trying to argue with me, and he said, "I hate to break the news to you Jeff, but you weren't a Christian, because you didn't have the Holy Spirit in you."
No... really??? I said something like, "Well that much we can agree on: I never had the Holy Spirit in me. And neither do you. You know why? Because it doesn't exist." He never talked to me again -- denying the Holy Spirit, of course, is one of the highest sins, and that just scared him away. Ha!
Face it - they have examined the faith you hold so desperately to more than yourself
Main Entry: sar·casm
Pronunciation: \ˈsär-ˌka-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwarəs- to cut
Date: 1550
1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2 a: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b: the use or language of sarcasm
Reading one or two of your posts, you seem to be under the illusion that most people here have left Christianity because of the awful behaviour of Christians.
Such behaviour is pointed out to show how accepting Fundamentalist Christian beliefs can lead a person to behave badly, but it is not why most people here reject Christianity.
I am sorry that you have been hurt by Christians, but I for one can say I was not deeply hurt by any Christians - yes the odd one crossed me because of a difference in opinion, but I had good relationships with people in all the churches I was involved in. I left Christianity because I stopped believing in God.
I was a charismatic catholic... born again, baptised in the Spirit, speaking in tongues, loyal to the Catholic Church as the mystical Body of Christ etc. I'm surprised you have not met any exchristians....believe me, there are many around - not all speak about it freely. I have known several born again believers who no longer have faith. I presume it's easier to deconvert here in Britain - none of my family go to church - churchgoing is very much a minority interest, so there's no pressure to remain.
I stopped believing in God when I really started to study the Bible - the inconsistencies, the cruel nature of the God it portrayed... that can't be denied, even if people say that 'God's ways are not ours' - many humans are far more moral that the bible God. This led me to think about the variety of versions of Christianity, not to mention the claims of other religions - each saying they were right because their understanding of scripture was correct, supported by an inner witness of the Spirit or its equivalent. I felt all these supposed revelations from God were just the internal workings of the mind and emotions. You know how creating a spooky atmosphere ... lights turned down, flickering candles and the telling of ghost stories can make you think there's something scary in the room, when clearly there isn't - all that's present is an overactive imagination. Well the same thing happens in church - powerful music, teasing atmosphere, emotive preaching and woosh... the presence of the Holy Spirit, when it's just imagination and the way the mind is wired up to react.
Then there's the biggy... the existence of arbitrary suffering. If I think about it I could come up with more reasons, it's just that it's been about 16 years since I stopped believing and things are a bit hazy!
To move onto a different tack, I was in the city centre where I live, a few weeks ago and was accosted by some Christians. People around me continued to eat their sandwiches, listen to music and talk to friends but I got into conversation with the pastor. I remained calm but he started to get angry - at which point a lady came to speak to me. She came up with several reasons why she thought I know longer believed, including that: I hated God, was tempted by an immoral lifestyle, materialism, satan had entered me, hurt by other Christians - none of which applied. She then gave up in a way and just poured her heart out to me and I just listened. I felt for her but was saddened that Christians in several churches had hurt her. She had had a troubled life and had recently lost a son. I apologise for blowing my own trumpet, but she told me she received more comfort from me an atheist than from other Christians... I wasn't trying to be kind 'cos the Lord wanted me to, or befriend her to convert her, it was just plain sympathy and she appreciated that.
As an atheist, I do things I want to, not 'cos I have to for the Lord. I know you will understand what I'm saying. Anyway, enough! I've gone on too much, but I hope it goes some way to answer your question.
Diane
1 - One must assume that God talks through certain people, even though there's no real way to tell whether that's the case, or whether the people just -think- they're speaking on God's behalf
2 - The Bible's portrayal of God is erratic and contradictory, showing signs of an evolving idea of the Jewish god from a sky god among other gods to the king of gods to the only god. The Bible's portrayal also does not seem to share characteristics with the cleaner, more beautiful philosophical idea of the Divine Prime Mover that created all the natural laws that the universe operates on
3 - Christianity's claims are outrageous, absurd, and unprovable (we're all descended from one couple, somehow inherited sin from them, and that one random street preacher was executed and somehow making ourselves believe that that preacher was God Incarnate we'll be saved from a Hell that we were already sentenced to go to merely by being born)
4 - There's no way to truly tell whether or not Christianity is more true than any other religion
My biggest problem with it was that, even though Christians are told to "obey God" and "trust God" and all that, the only records we supposedly have of what God is supposed to want of us were written by men.
So in the end, Diane, you haven't put your trust in God - you've put your trust in men who claim that God has talked to them. Does that make you feel comfortable, that you've dedicated your whole life to what a bunch of men wrote down, and what a bunch of men then interpreted and told you to do?
Having faith in something that had no effect in my life was driveing me insane.
"True Christanity doesn't make people feel the way you felt. I've been involved with Christians who are so legalistic about things that you could never live up to what their god wants. I however have a relationship with a much different God who loves me and would never want me to feel so enslaved to legalism."
Untill you can show that "god" is more than an imaginary conceptual idea you hold in your own mind, and is objectively real, then this TRUE CHRISTIANITY™ seems to be defined as the belief that you personally hold about a god you have made up in your own mind to comfort you. No one else can hope to be a TRUE CHRISTIAN™ if they must believe everything that you believe about the god concept you hold and that exists only in your mind.
"I hope you find your way back to the God that loves you just the way you are."
Do you believe that this god will torture me forever if I don't love him back when I die?
Is this book available in Spanish?
Brian
Is this book available in Spanish?
Brian
Hi jeffmark - Thanks for your thoughtful testimony, I can certainly go along with the above comment. Very true in my own case... I was determined to be the most devout Christian I knew. You raise your hands in worship, mine would go higher. You give a message in tongues, I'll interpret, give a word of knowledge, then, prophesy. Having to study the Bible critically like any other book, whilst training for the priesthood set the seal on my deconversion.
S- your good ol' George Washington is dead. My Jesus Christ is alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where?
--S.
So is he in Hell?
[Jesus] LIVES IN HEAVEN
And George Washington -- you know one of the founding fathers, who founded our country, on christian principles -- where is he?
--S.
its not up to us to judge where he is
I'm not asking you to make a judgment, on where to send him; I'm asking, where is he likely to be, using your christian criteria. Evidently, you think you know what you have to do to obtain eternal salvation, because if you didn't think you were right and you were not doing what is prescribed by your religion and doctrine, then you couldn't obtain eternal salvation.
It's painfully, obvious you must diverge, because if you answer, you think he is in heaven, then you have to admit George Washington is not dead and his being continues to exist, thereby, fatally, destroying your argument, that Jesus is the only one still alive.
As it stands now -- your christian doctrine -- dictates that good ole' George is either in heaven or he is in hell -- either way he is still living, rendering your dumb-ass argument obsolete.
--S.
Your jesus, "A christian", is also quite 'dead'.
That is, if he ever actually existed; which I highly doubt was the case.
ATF (Who wonders why xtians all say "MY jesus", as if they own him or something)
I sure hope you're a teenager (or younger) as you sound very naive to me.
You said: "there are many testimonies that i know of where Jesus has shown Himself....."
Testimonies are a dime-a-dozen (maybe cheaper today?) and not only mean nothing to me, but are actually more like "negative-evidence", as most of these seem to be nothing more than lies with an agenda behind them.
Do you know how I spot a consumer product that has a great chance of being just another scam to take my money from me?
If they use "testimonies" to convince me that their product works, instead of showing at least independent clinical or scientific research data to back up their claims.
Where is your INDEPENDENT data to verify your jesus lived and did all those miracles.
Where is your INDEPENDENT data to show this jesus is making contact with ANY human being on this earth?
Taking someone's 'word' without real evidence to back it up, is a suckers pitfall, and YOU'VE-BEEN-HAD it seems.
Please start using your brain to realize jesus is imaginary and please read through this website to find out how hard some here tried to make-friends with your jesus, but he ignored them; as he doesn't exists.
ATF (Who see's FAR more evidence for santa and the tooth fairy, than your invisible jesus)
I'm sorry, where's your proof, again?
He miraculously appeared with a heavenly choir.
I was pretty impressed.
Till he told me that he did not exist and I was making him up in my head.
He told me I was lying to myself and that is a sin.
He told me to warn you too.
Please don't lie to yourself!
The Jesus you made up would not like it.
first of all, Jesus did exist, is existing, and will exist. as a matter of fact, there are many testimonies that i know of where Jesus has shown Himself to people or somehow miraculasly proven His existence.
People also have shared their cuckoo, testimonies, making extraordinary claims, describing how they saw fairies, flying around them, gremlins destroying machinery, mermaids swimming in the ocean and leprechauns making mischief -- does that mean all these creatures exist?
Besides dubious testimonies, how, exactly, are you privy to the knowledge, that Jesus exists? Please give me your top four, best, evidences for Jesus' existence.
God has done so many things for me that there is no way for the rest of my life that i can turn away from Him or not believe in Him
And what did god do for you?
--S.
same thing with christianity.
Jesus is real and alive. people just dont want to go to Him. or they came to Him, didnt get to know Him and left.
as for me, yes, Jesus has done so much that there are too many to count. from saving me from death, in car accidents, in answering so many of my questions and personal prayers. from healing the sick and giving me another day to live....
just look at the sky, at the nature, so much proves His existence. those things could not possibly have been made from a Big Bang theory as you would say.
look at our body. could "accidents" have made us? or did we develop from a rock? from a monkey who came from onother animal? and that animal came from onother that came from who? where did the "Big Bang" come from in the first place? huh? out of nothing? now that is something that is hard for me to understand. i would rather believe in God that at Big Bang Theory.
open your eyes and you will see that Jesus real. i told you where Jesus is. you tell me where he is not.
I would rather know the truth, even if it means I'm wrong. I challenge you to examine your position and see if you are as willing to admit error.
Tell us again would ya?
Better still since you see him on a regular basis - ask him to meet us face-to-face.
If he does not appear I will take it for proof you are just a liar.
Deal?
jesus is not in cannibalism.
you know what? i dont believe barbers or hair salons exist either. if they did, there wont be people walking around with hair covering their whole face and being dirty, unshaved, and smelly. I think the problem is that maybe there are barbers and hair salons. the problem is that people dont go there.
same thing with christianity.
Only the most ignorant of christians use this most asinine , and sophomoric -- utterly, ridiculous, argument. Do you even read what you vomit up? I suspect you just regurgitate these bogus analogies, that you found from some christian website, without critically thinking about it -- which makes sense, you are a deer in the headlight christian drone who can't think for himself. Listen, dumb-ass, you and I can go to a barber shop or a salon -- they are tangible. We can see how scissors and razors and clippers work -- we can watch a man get his hair cut or watch as he shaves off his stubble. There are even reality shows on TV, that have contestants duking it out, trying to see who can clip and style a better coif. Can you take me to the barber shop up in the sky? NO! Try again, you silly, little, delusional, christian and do try and arm yourself with something other than stupid-ass analogies, that only make you look like an ass.
Jesus has done so much that there are too many to count. from saving me from death, in car accidents, in answering so many of my questions and personal prayers. from healing the sick and giving me another day to live....
...and how exactly did Jesus do these things? Did you see him? Or are you simply assigning, these things to him? If a Muslim, Hindu or non-religious person survives a car wreck, is it because Jesus stepped in, too?
just look at the sky, at the nature, so much proves His existence. those things could not possibly have been made from a Big Bang theory as you would say.
Yes, let's look at nature. What about those miraculous, hurricanes, tornadoes, typhoons, heat waves, volcanoes, lightening strikes, blizzards, mudslides, etc, that cause so much destruction, leaving monstrous injuries, misery and death in their wake. What about the unintelligent design of the umbilical cord? God sure screwed up that design. If god could create the universe, why couldn't he design an umbilical cord that wouldn't wrap around a babies neck, depriving them from oxygen, causing thousands of babies a year to die or to suffer the rest of their life with egregious mental and physical challenges. How about god's great design of putting the air hole right next to the food hole causing thousands to choke to death every year? What about the nature of viruses, bacterias, and germs, that have caused billions to suffer and die in mass plagues? How about aggressive childhood leukemia, all childhood cancers and diseases, and horrible genetic, birth defects? These are shitty fucking designs.
In fact 99% of all life has gone extinct. Look at the immense volume of the universe where life can't live -- where you will die instantly -- instantly.
What about becoming extinct at any moment? Asteroids? Gamma rays? Ice Ages?
440 million years ago. End of the Ordovician period.
370 million years ago. Near the end of the Devonian period.
245 million years ago. End of Permian.
210 million years ago. End of Triassic.
65 million years ago. End of Cretaceous.
God's doing a pretty shitty job, if these are the perfect conditions for life and is proof of his existence.
or did we develop from a rock? from a monkey who came from onother animal? and that animal came from onother that came from who? where did the "Big Bang" come from in the first place? huh? out of nothing? now that is something that is hard for me to understand.
Argument from ignorance. Just because we don't know it, doesn't mean god did it. At one point in history we didn't know what caused volcanoes to erupt, droughts, tsunamis, rainbows, lightening, tornadoes, hurricanes, aurora borealis, comets, eclipses and on and on and on. Just because science didn't have an explanation to these phenomenon, at the time, does not mean "god did it". Science does not concern itself with the answer "god did it" -- because if they did, we would all still be in the dark ages, which is exactly where ignorant christians -- like yourself -- and creationists still are.
BTW, where did god come from -- out of nothing? If you say he always existed then why is it so preposterous to claim the universe has always existed in some form or another?
open your eyes and you will see that Jesus real. i told you where Jesus is. you tell me where he is not.
The only place Jesus exists is in the confines of that abyss you call a mind -- you deluded dolt.
Who here thinks achristian got his hands on an old Dr. Dino creationist pamphlet?
--S.
i told you where Jesus is. you tell me where he is not.
Where he's not? Hmmmmmmm, that’s a tough one. Show me where Zeus, Thor and Allah are not and I’ll use your method.
--S.
Then you're an idiot. What a ridiculous and inappropriate analogy, too... I can talk to a barber. If I try "talking" to your god, I'm most likely talking to Myself.
And even if there was an invisible being on the other end of the conversation, there's no way to know exactly what that being is. For all I know, it's a telepathic alien from Procyon B.
"Jesus is real and alive...."
It's been nearly 2,000 years since the alleged events in the Gospels. If he ever lived, he's gone now.
"just look at the sky, at the nature, so much proves His existence."
I disagree. Even if a god *did* make those things, I see no reason to think that it's *your" god. Prove to Me that it wasn't Oðinn, Vili and Vé (as described in the Prose Edda).
"...those things could not possibly have been made from a Big Bang theory as you would say."
Logical fallacy: Argument from personal incredulity.
"look at our body. could "accidents" have made us?"
And your understanding of evolution is simply execrable.
"i would rather believe in God that at Big Bang Theory."
(shrugs) To each his own. I much prefer science to mythology.
But kindly do your believing somewhere else, please. We're not buying.
Goodnight,
Diane
I wish I could answer some of the questions asked of me with some sense that they would be considered for thought, but just...blah, blah, blah, excuse, excuse, excuse...feel that it is impossible to comunicate with one another because of those differences.
Yes, back to your comfy-cozy bunker of bibles, where you can be secure, in your delusional beliefs.
--S.
However, I do not feel that it is impossible to comunicate with one another because of those differences.
well which one is it -- do you think we can communicate or do you think we will stifle that communication by not considering your answers with thought? You contradict yourself.
--S.
The point you seemed to have missed with atheism/agnosticism is that it is not faith, but is the absence of faith. There is not a body of doctrines to believe in... Some people do try and define the absence of belief in God or atheism as faith.
You could say that some people have 'faith' in astrology. I don't, but that doesn't mean it takes faith to disbelieve astrology. Do you believe in Allah and Islam? If not, would you define your disbelief in that religion as faith. Assuming you're not a Muslim, you too are an atheist when it comes to Islam.
I am grounded in my faith I believe those of you asking the questions are grounded in your faith
This is what you completely misconstrue. We don't have faith that there is no god, there is just no evidence to support a god, specifically a christian, personal god.
Here's a list of deities and other magical flights of fancy. Do you have an unwavering faith not to believe in these? Or do you simply dismiss them, never really thinking about them?
Allah, Poseidon, Krishna, Zeus, The Easter Bunny, Thor, Seven Headed Hydra, Griffin, Kali, Phoenix, Unicorn, Satyr, Ra, Minotaur, Ganesha, Mermaid, Banshee, The Jack-a-lope, Nymphs, Centaurs, Vishnu, Elves, Pixies, Trolls, Tooth Fairy, Rama, Leprechauns, Odin, Brownies, Athena, Fairies, Shiva, Gnomes, Chupacabra, Lakshmi, Pegasus, Flying Tea Kettle, Mothman, Superman, Apollo, Baal, Genies, The Great Pumpkin, Hades, Mithra, Spaghetti monster, Cerberus, Golem, Gremlins, and the list has an infinite amount of possibilities. There are over 330, 000 Hindu gods, alone!
Do you go about your day, mustering up the faith, to NOT believe in this list?
What you have is faith. Faith is believing in something that has no evidence, no logical proof or material evidence. Do you believe in any of the entities I listed above? Can they magically grant you wishes? Do you believe in any of those entities, even though the evidence is largely conclusive that they do not exist? If you did believe in them, then you could only believe in them, on faith. Do you really go around, living day to day, practicing in a belief system, that believes in the non-existence of any of the entities, I mentioned? NO, that's absurd. You just, simply DO NOT believe in those entities, because you see zero proof of them existing -- you don't have to have faith, that they don't exist. And, in exactly the same way, we simply do not believe in your Bible-God -- It doesn't take belief or faith, there is just no evidence.
Try real hard to understand; I can tell you have a difficult time digesting information.
--S.
Because you like peanut butter, we must like something else?
Because you believe in something, so must everybody?
There is no logic to your assertion. I do not believe there is a god. That is different from "I believe there is no god."
The first requires no faith, the second might, just possibly, if you are splitting semantic hairs, require faith.
I have faith in me, if you wish, and in my ability to make decisions about my life. Is that a sufficient something?
you must believe or have faith in something.......
No, I do not. This begs the question, what did you assume our, supposed, faith was grounded in? You try to argue that we have some kind of faith, when it comes to not believing in god, which I, adequately, refuted above. Now you are grasping for straws, claiming I have to have faith or believe in something, simply, because you do. Besides the mythology of your religion and your faith, in god, what else do you have faith in -- something you believe, that you have no evidence for? Even, glebealyth doesn't have faith (defined as believing in something that lacks evidence) in her/him self. Glebealyth, knows her/him self based on past decisions and tangible references, that don't require faith (belief in something that has no evidence)
Your assertion that we must have faith is a classic christian ploy to associate atheism with your own beliefs – to put non-belief on the same playing field as theism, in a vein attempt, to justify your religious beliefs, by claiming atheists have faith just like you do. We don't; get over it.
Besides if the evidence for god was full-proof -- why the need for faith, to begin with?
BTW, can you concede, my point, that you don't need faith, not to believe in the list, I supplied, above?
--S.
Diane, yet another question you are avoiding. It was pointed out by Sconnor and me that atheism is not a belief as you seem to think - it is an absence of belief. Just like your disbelief in various other gods, takes very little doing. Stop deflecting... What we do believe in, is not the issue.
I have answered your questions in a few posts as best I can. You have been courteous in your replies, but have not acknowledged what I said and have answered none of my questions. Is that what you mean by communication? Indeed, I know nothing of your beliefs and have assumed you are a Christian of one brand or another, rightly or wrongly.
You said at some point: 'I wish I could answer some of the questions asked of me with some sense that they would be considered for thought,'
On first glance that might look like you're saying people here are close minded?? I would be glad to hear them, just to get some sense of where you're coming from. Perhaps you do not answer or respond to questions people put to you, because deep down you recognise that Christian teaching and doctrine does not stand up to being questioned and placed under scrutiny. I myself am pretty poor at philosophy and debate, but I can still see how illogical Christianity is when approached with a questioning mind.
Several years ago, someone asked me how I knew my experience of God was real and answered that I just knew ... in my spirit. I was convinced that I didn't need to explain myself because the questioner would only know what I was talking about when his spiritual heart was awakened with a similar experience. That attitude can appear as the height of arrogance, but in truth I was clueless as how to answer.
So come on Diane, share more - unless the words pearls and swine are in your mind. I leave a couple of quotes for you from one of God's Books... People claim he's been involved in writing or inspiring a few - the Gita, The Upanishads, The Guru Granth, The Qur'an, The Bible ... and others. He sure contradicts himself! See Bible ... Colossians 4 verse 5-6; 2 Timothy 1 verse 7
Time for Diane's head to explode and run out of here, with her tail tucked between her legs.
--S.
about him during his supposed lifetime, and why no one has seen him for
around 2,000 years?
Wait a minute..maybe he's missing because he was shipwrecked, and ended up
on the island with Gilligan and the Skipper. Next time you think you are talking
to him, ask him that age-old question; who does he prefer? Ginger or Mary Ann?
you get when you're around four years old, and ask a parent or your preacher
where Jesus is.
The Bible has Jesus saying we must all once again become as little children.
Because a child will believe almost anything, and an adult will think much more
critically?
I don't think you've spent much time reading some of the testimonies here. There
are many here who called upon Jesus for help, to reveal himself, to make himself
real, and received nothing but silence and disappointment. Not once, but many
times.
When you start thinking like an adult, and not a naive child (and do a little research)
you will be amazed at what you once used to believe.
Try reading his post carefully before trying to misrepresent his argument.
Plus do some research (as he said) on the points you brought up:
Christmas, AD, numbers of non-believers - the answers are already in the negative.
You dont even know much about the origins of these things do you?
You continue to ignore and misrepresent his posts.
Christmas is on Dec 25, which in pre-Christianity was the date of birth for many gods and goddesses(including Mithras and Inanna). It was syncretised with pagan winter festivals so that pagans could make conversion more easily to Xtianity.
What right have you to speak for the rest of Xtianity. Did they vote you as their King?
How can you apologize for the rest of Xtianity i you dont speak for the rest of them.
You can keep on evading the question but it still stands.
If Jesus was nothing more than a fairy tale, why does time itself start from His birthday? Why is His birthday, or the day we believe he was born, a national holiday? If He is not who he is they why do people from all around the globe believe in Him?
Using your logic and the Islamic Calender than god's most recent prophet Muhammad is true and the national holidays that Muslims practice is an indicator that their religion is true. Additionally, if Muhammad is not who he is then why do people from all around the globe believe in Him? Furthermore christianity only represents 30% of the world; the other 70% of the world is another religion or the non-religious.
--S.
I gave my christian friend your link he said "This guy has no idea what the Christian faith is" How do you respond to that?
I might also ask how exactly he defines Christian Faith and why he feels I never had it. Because at that point there might be an impasse: A lot of Christians today seem to believe that they have the Holy Spirit in them and that once that thing is present it's not possible for it to leave. And as such they think that we ex-Christians couldn't possibly have had the holy spirit in us, and so we will never truly understand the faith.
Of course, we agree that we didn't have the Holy Spirit in it, because the Holy Spirit isn't real, and they don't have it in them either. But they won't agree with us on that.
The AD system was set up in about 500 years after the date supposedly Christ was born, they tried to guess when Christ was born but most scholars think the even the accuracy was off and Christ was actually born a couple of years BC (before Christ). 500 years before it got popularized across the west, people used Roman calender systems. So time didn't start at AD as dahumblewarrior says.
Dionysius Exiguus, an abbot in Rome, devised them as a way to determine the date for Easter for Pope St. John I. The terms were continued under the Gregorian Calendar, created in 1582 under Pope Gregory XIII.
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/24/news/ad...
Or.... one can believe that time-itself only began when jesus set foot on earth and that he himself (or his daddy) ordered the BC/AD terms to be put in use.
You get to pick which
ATF (Who finds it absurd that this is offered as proof that jesus was real)
My sister beat me up (verbally that is lol) because I used BC and AD in my book. That was a conscious decision to do so, because I wanted to make the book as appealing as possible to people who are presently struggling with their faith. There will hopefully be a time when Common Era (CE) and Before Common Era (BCE) are the usual terms. But right now, a lot of people aren't familiar with that term. And I know that when I was a believing, practicing Christian, I was put off by those. I took them as a slap in the face against my Jesus. (Gawd, did I really feel that way? I cringe typing it!) And so that's why I used the more commonly-used BC and AD so that I wouldn't chase off Christians who are struggling and doubting their faith.
I don't quite get the connection between little children and Jesus. Maybe I am missing something. I am new at this unbelief stuff and having a hard time of it. But one thing is for sure, Jesus of the Bible is NOTHING like a child. Little children love everyone, you are correct. Jesus of the Bible hated everyone, in fact, he told us we had to hate everyone, our relatives, parents, kids, etc., or we could not follow him. He told the Pharisees who were actually the only people following the law that THEY were going to hell. He told the rich man that if he didn't give up EVERYTHING he owned that he was going to hell. Then he told YOU that you had to have the righteousness of the Pharisees or you would not go to your supposed heaven. One thing is for sure, this Jesus you worship is one messed up idea.
And that is the thing, Jesus is not real. He never was and he never existed so please don't try to put words in "his" mouth. If Jesus were alive today, he would send you and everyone else to hell to suffer for eternity according to that big miserable book called the Bible. If that is childlike in any way, you tell me about it there big guy. I hate Christianity. I have grown to hate it because I really have always hated to be lied to. So please don't tell me that children and Jesus have anything in common. That is just insane.
You guys seem quick to study about Jesus, God, and the bible and find where they are supposedly "wrong" but have you ever wondered about Satan? How he's lying to you? How he's so convincing to our souls? How we so easily believe his lies?
Here's a few of his lies:
God isn't real.
Jesus never existed or He was just a good person everyone perceived as a hero.
Heaven doesn't exist.
Hell doesn't exist.
Humans are a result of chance and don't have a creator.
The bible has contradictions.
Christians are brainwashed.
What he tells us to first get us to disbelieve are statements that have some truth, but not the whole truth.
For instance... in the Garden of Eden, God said "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of good and evil for when you eat of it you will surely die"
Satan tells Eve: "Did God really say 'You must not eat from any tree in the Garden?"
[warped God's word]
Eve replies: "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die"
[She even warped God's word into the idea that she shouldn't even touch it]
Satan says : "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil"
[Satan said they wouldn't die.... but he didn't mention that they wouldn't die right away... which Adam and Eve eventually died. He also added some sugar by saying 'you will be like God']
and what do yah know, by hearing that, she believed him.
In the same way, when we don't have strong enough faith, we gradually start to believe satan and then eventually his lies take over our lives and we start to even disbelieve in God.
It's happened to me before. I was a "Christian" then I didn't believe in anything anymore because there were just too many concepts I did not understand. I didn't believe the bible was true. I didn't believe prayer was real.... until what was like a "tragedy" in my younger teenage years happened and I asked God to just do something in a blog on myspace [it was private], well a month or two later I'm still angry at God and one night I just made the assumption that God is really not there. Well, he showed me where I had typed that prayer, and I realized God was working in the situation all along, it just wasn't happening the way I WANTED IT TO HAPPEN.
Go ahead, tear apart every sentence I said and make a laughing stock out of it. You can take away my bible, you can take away my church, but you cannot take away my faith in God. What he has done in my life proves who he is to me.
What else tells me he's real?
I'm the type of girl is not going to try to force my opinion on anyone. I am actually accepting to opinions. But because reading this stuff you guys say is absolutely breaking my heart, I know God exists.
The thing about the truth is it is true whether we believe it or not.
yes, I know I've already said it.
"Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning not holding to the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
John 8: 43- 47
Lies... that's a good topic... why would anyone "worship" a "liar", or one who deceives?
Kings 22:23 - "Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
2 Chronicles 18:22 - "Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets."
Jeremiah 4:10 - "Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people."
Jeremiah 20:7 - "O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived."
Ezekiel 14:9 - "And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet."
2 Thessalonians 2:11 - "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Rachel B, the bible's description of the character God, shows him to be... a deceptive liar. Can you explain the difference between Satan's deception/lies, and your God's deception/lies? Truly, there must be a means for you to distinguish between one liar from another... for me, if "either" character existed, I'd not deem them worthy of my respect, or in your case... worthy of blind unquestioning worship.
Rachel B: "The thing about the truth is it is true whether we believe it or not."
Rachel B, your statement is... naive. There is but a single "Truth"... but... I am quite confident you have zero understanding of what that actually means, in terms that you could share without logical conflict.
The way you stated, truth as being true whether we believe it or not - is itself a personal "truth" statement from you. Why do you "believe" that "your" personal "truth" statement is "true", whether or not I accept it as a "truth"?
If truth statements require human perception... then, how do you determine how your perception is somehow more "lucid" than let's say, the rest of humanity's?
Not to mention god is the mother of all hypocrites.
One of god's ten commandments is thou shall not kill.
Isn't god a liar, when in 1Sam 15:3 The Lord says, "Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies".
Well, which is it god? Can you make up your F-ing mind! I mean -- really -- this is confusing, should you kill or shouldn't you kill? If you say don't kill, what is the moral principle you base it on? Is it like the christians preach? -- all life is sacred? If that's the case then why do you order barbarians to butcher children and babies? Come on god, which is it? Thou shall not kill or thou shall kill? What a confused, lying, megalomaniac!
--S.
Great points... the Christian concept of God appears to boil down to some character that demands; do as I say, not as I do... kinda' quaint if we think about it... I mean, obviously... either this God concept has no "Free Will" or "Will Power" to follow his own advice, or... perhaps the God character doesn't respect/care for his own advice… of course, Christians throughout the ages seem to have had no problem with telling others what they should do, while behaving like their bloody God character :-)
-Dave8
Playing the persecution card eh? Typical fundie behavior.
No one is proactively taking away your Bible, church or faith. You posted here first - you hypocrite.
"What else tells me he's real?
I'm the type of girl is not going to try to force my opinion on anyone. I am actually accepting to opinions. But because reading this stuff you guys say is absolutely breaking my heart, I know God exists."
yawn... then stop reading. any proof for your "special knowledge"? all versions of Xtianity and other religions claim they also know God exists.
"The thing about the truth is it is true whether we believe it or not.
yes, I know I've already said it."
Yes - but you feel you know the truth - you dont actually know the truth at all.
Whether we believe or not does not immediately make something true. there needs to be corroboration - evidence etc...
So where is your evidence?
The thing about the truth is that you must prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt before you should expect anyone to take it seriously.
And do you honestly think that we think there's a Satan? There's something about "ex-Christian" that you don't seem to be getting.
I've wondered about Satan telling me lies, about as much as I've wondered about your god telling me truths; or anything at all for that matter.
i.e. Not at all, in recent years
>Here's a few of his lies:
Can you prove these are lies?
>God isn't real.
If god is real, then I'm sure you can provide evidence for him, yes?
>Jesus never existed or He was just a good person everyone perceived as a hero.
Did Satan burn all the historical records that would show jesus actually lived and had done all the things your bible claims, because outside your babble book, there is no evidence to prove jesus was real.
>Heaven doesn't exist.
>Hell doesn't exist.
Of course, you have evidence these places are real?
Perhaps you spent your last summer vacation visiting these two places and can give us plenty details about them?
Best as we can tell, they are as real as the Land of Oz is; which btw, also exists inside a book of fiction, just like your bible story book.
>Humans are a result of chance and don't have a creator.
If this is a lie from the devil, then he sure is way more powerful and pro-active, than your god huh?
>The bible has contradictions.
It does, without a doubt, and plenty of them to.
>Christians are brainwashed.
If you only knew just how MUCH they are !!
>For instance... in the Garden of Eden, God said "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of good and evil for when you eat of it you will surely die"
>Satan tells Eve: "Did God really say 'You must not eat from any tree in the Garden?"
>[warped God's word]
Or so the writers of that fable, are showing us.
>Satan says : "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil"
[Satan said they wouldn't die.... but he didn't mention that they wouldn't die right away... which Adam and Eve eventually died. He also added some sugar by saying 'you will be like God']
Sorry, but dying 900 years later, is not exactly a lie on the part of Satan.
Why didn't they die right away?
If they didn't know good from evil, then how did they know it was wrong to eat that fruit?
>and what do yah know, by hearing that, she believed him.
Yeah, maybe because she didn't have the experience to know better, because god neglected to let them gain experience before passing such harsh judgement upon them.
Frankly, god messed up badly, so why didn't he just kill them and start over with a new couple who wouldn't mess up and displease him?
Better yet, why didn't creator god get it right the FIRST TIME around?
>In the same way, when we don't have strong enough faith, we gradually start to believe satan
So sayeth YOU, but without proof to back up this assertion.
>and then eventually his lies take over our lives and we start to even disbelieve in God.
Or could it be, we start to believe reality...yeah, I think so.
>Go ahead, tear apart every sentence I said and make a laughing stock out of it.
Actually, you did that pretty much all by yourself.
> You can take away my bible, you can take away my church, but you cannot take away my faith in God. What he has done in my life proves who he is to me.
Yes, we know your type of delusion, all too well.
>What else tells me he's real?
I'd sure like to know, so please tell me.
>I'm the type of girl is not going to try to force my opinion on anyone. I am actually accepting to opinions. But because reading this stuff you guys say is absolutely breaking my heart, I know God exists.
Breaking your heart?
May I suggest swallowing a band-aid then?
"Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
Because mystical gibberish doesn't count as language, in my mind.
> You belong to your father, the devil,
Dear devil,
It's been so long since you last stopped by for coffee and devil-food cake.
Then again, I can't seem to even recall your last visit.
>and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning not holding to the truth, because there is no truth in him.
You are speaking of the bible god here, are you not?
> When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
What would this native language be?
Oddly enough, your feared devil hardly gets a mention in your bible, let alone shown to be a lier and no, you can't prove the devil was the snake either.
> Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?
There is no such thing as "SIN". Only deluded xtians think there is and have a need to get it forgiven. The rest of us make amends to those we hurt etc..
> If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?
Because you are NOT telling the truth, but what you think is the truth, which is not quite the same thing, is it?
>He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
Of course that's the reason, at least it is to YOU.
To the rest of us here, there is no bible god and we belong to no one but those who we wish to give ourselves to and your god didn't make the grade, sorry.
ATF (Who really hates when they quote lame bible verses to us)
I think it's the other way around... oh but I can't prove it. Oh no!
Yeah, I feel sorry for you guys that you make it your life's goal to contradict Christianity in anyway you can.
I guess it gives your life meaning.
oh, but life doesn't have meaning because we were created by chance!
Two random protons came from God knows where...[pun intended]
crashed and then there's this thing and then there's this thing and then you have humanity!!
Hmm, I wonder how we got so smart! [pun intended again]
I guess you guys are dead-set [dang there's puns all around] on your choice.
I aimed at convincing you otherwise.
My job is done.
Sorry that you chose hell.
just read this.
with an open mind?
http://www.ex-atheist.com/from-skepticism-to-wo...
Well, what else could make you believe that a dead man came back to life?
Rachel B wrote:
We're brainwashed because we don't believe impossible things?
Rachel B wrote:
There goes another Christian with that mind-reading.
Actually, I made it a life's goal of mine to prove Christianity. My efforts were an unqualified failure. Now, after that debacle, what would be the point of my trying to disprove Christianity?
Rachel B wrote:
When you get a chance, look up "non sequitur." Just because you derive meaning from your god doesn't mean that everyone else needs your God to find meaning.
Rachel B wrote:
I would call that the abbreviated version—if it bore the slightest resemblance to what science teaches. Before you start making fun of what we believe, you might first try learning what it is that we believe.
Rachel B wrote:
Evolution. It explains our intelligence beautifully, should you be willing to learn about it. (I can tell from what you've written so far that you don't know jack shit about evolution, and neither does your preacher.)
Rachel B wrote:
1. Your "dead-set" pun presupposes a Christian world view. From a non-Christian point of view, it makes no sense. By definition, only Christians believe that rejecting Christianity brings death. I am baffled that this even has to be explained. (The reason I get the pun is that I used to be Christian, and thus understand the mindset.)
2. Once again, I did not choose not to believe in God. Did you choose not to believe in Zeus?
Rachel B wrote:
Your job is not wanted here. By your own admission, you have violated our sanctuary. How would you like it if an atheist or a Muslim barged into your church during a service and tried to convert you and your congregation?
Rachel B wrote:
Hell is a figment of your imagination, and nothing more than a scare tactic. We can no more choose Hell than you can choose Never Never Land; and that you are using it against us makes you an extortionist.
Rachel B wrote:
Oh good grief. My open mind tells me that this former "atheist" exhibits every stereotype that Christians believe of atheists—stereotypes that I was pleasantly surprised to discover were baseless.
P.S. Just in case you don't know, "open mind" is not synonym for "agreeing with Rachel B."
Thanks for all your puns - they were amusing only in showing you could not answer any of the questions posed to you.
yup - your job is done.
You cant defend your God other than making personal attacks on others.
Sorry you chose to believe in a hell no one is going to.
YES, just as much as most of us were at one time in our lives, with your religion meme of horror.
Considering we've all been on both sides of the fence and you have NOT (yet), then we can clearly understand your thinking pattern, but you can not understand ours.
Anyone inside a mind 'sect' of any kind, can't realize how brainwashed they are, until they escape from it and look back.
Some day you may know exactly what we are talking about, at least I HOPE SO.
>I think it's the other way around... oh but I can't prove it. Oh no!
No, you can't prove it anymore than a member of any brainwashing sect can prove they have the truth to someone on the outside of that sect.
You may want to take the time to study how these sects destroy minds and then maybe you'll see how your own sect, is doing exactly the same thing (with about the same techniques) to you as is done to those others.
>Yeah, I feel sorry for you guys that you make it your life's goal to contradict Christianity in anyway you can.
Actually, I personally am out to debunk your bible and it's god, to show it's all BS.
Of course, if you wish to see that as just my willful contradicting of your god's existence, then so be it.
>I guess it gives your life meaning.
It's a better "meaning" than living a fantasy as if it were reality.
>oh, but life doesn't have meaning because we were created by chance!
There is no grand universal meaning to life. Life just IS.
Any meaning of life is one determined by each person, nothing more.
>Two random protons came from God knows where...[pun intended]
crashed and then there's this thing and then there's this thing and then you have humanity!!
Hmm, I wonder how we got so smart! [pun intended again]
Your personal 'theory' here, is missing ohhh, a few bazillion necessary steps.
Is this what your preacher taught you in Sunday-School class?
It's no wonder then, that you hold such a low opinion of science.
You might want to actually read some science textbooks, you know, the one's that weren't censored by fundie minds, and contain more than just pretty pictures.
>I guess you guys are dead-set [dang there's puns all around] on your choice.
"Dead-set"....NO.
Awaiting credible evidence that would indicate another viable choice, YES.
So far, not one xtian has presented any such evidence to us and let me tell you, we've seen hundreds that have tried to do so and FAILED horribly; just as you have now.
>I aimed at convincing you otherwise.
Then I would suggest that your god hasn't provided you with much support, in that quest.
Maybe because your god only exists in your brain cells and they aren't much help in "evidence presentations" ......not even if you use MS PowerPoint.
>My job is done.
Well, I'm sure it might be with us, but I have a feeling you're not done feeding your swill dogma to anyone you deem gullible enough to swallow it.
>Sorry that you chose hell.
One last time, there is no hell and you can't prove there is.
The ONLY reason you think there is, is because you were trained to think so, from an early childhood, so it's stamped onto your brain now and you can't see otherwise.
ATF (Who has a 2-for-1 special running today, on SIN-SOAP-ON-A-ROPE; if you're interested Rachel?)
"My brain rotted there for 40 hours a week for 10 years".
Explains a lot.................
Sorry that you chose hell.
In order to choose something, you must want it. I do not want hell, nor do I believe in it's existence.
What you wanted to say was, if you don't choose god and believe in him and accomplish a list of criteria, specific, to your salvation, then god punishes you -- that's an ultimatum.
Is your god so insecure, that if we don't believe in him, nor see any evidence, for his existence, then he is going to punish us, in the flames of hell, for all of eternity? Both you and your god are assholes.
--S.
And it gets worse. A lot worse.
The moment he stomped on the termites it became obvious to Me that his early upbringing did not develop a sense of empathy in him. His categorization of homosexuality as 'selfishness' sealed the deal -- Given a choice between simply accepting people for what they are, or condemning them because his newfound addiction so informed him, he went with condemnation so that he wouldn't have to discard the Bible.
All in all, he appears to be a vicious and narcissistic man, now hiding from himself in religion and trapped in a stupid myth for what is probably the rest of his life.
I do not envy him.
But for you, Rachel, there's still time to come to your senses.
Start by reading the Ex-timonies to find out why we abandoned Christianity. (Mine is here and meets the question of Hell head-on.)
Until you understand where we're coming from, you will be unable to engage in a meaningful dialogue with any of us. Idiotic one-liners, amateur Bible interpretation and cheap apologiae lifted from other websites are not conversation.
So when are *you* going to undertake an objective, serious study of whether or not your beliefs are true or false?
"Here's a few of his lies:
God isn't real.
Jesus never existed or He was just a good person everyone perceived as a hero.
Heaven doesn't exist.
Hell doesn't exist.
Humans are a result of chance and don't have a creator.
The bible has contradictions.
Christians are brainwashed."
Rachel, you are the one making an extraordinary positive claim. Consequently, the onus is upon *you* to:
- Prove that Satan exists.
- Prove that your god exists.
- Prove that heaven exists.
- Prove that hell exists.
As for Jesus, it's uncertain if he was an actual historical person or a composite, mythologically based character dreamed up by Paul. Scholars are currently investigating to see if such a person actually existed.
However, if you assert superhuman status for Jesus, the burden of proof is again upon you and not upon us.
As for humans, "chance" had very little to do with it. Please obtain and read a good non-religious book on evolutionary theory. A textbook at senior high school or first-year college level, thoroughly read and understood, should fill in the gaps in your biology knowledge.
As for Biblical contradictions, they exist. Period.
And as for whether or not Christians are brainwashed, anecdotal evidence does clearly support this conclusion. Anyone up for a scientific study to settle this once and for all?
"I'm the type of girl is not going to try to force my opinion on anyone."
It was too late for that the moment you started to type your first post here, Rachel.
"But because reading this stuff you guys say is absolutely breaking my heart, I know God exists."
Argumentum ad lachrymae? I've discovered a new logical fallacy!
Take the advice I offered on another thread here and retire, wounded. You WILL come to grief if you remain here. If you remain here long enough your grief WILL become the joy of knowledge, reason and enlightenment. Until then you make yourself a laughing stock with your facile non sequitors and deluded beliefs. You risk emerging from your callow, teenage years with your self esteem shot to hell by the belief system you have been sucked into. Do not do it to yourself. You are worth so much more than being fodder fro the collection plate junkies that have succeeded in putting this nonsense in your head.
Reading your naive posts breaks my heart...that one so young should consign herself to the death cult which is xtianity...Do some living, gain some knowledge and make some rational decisions.
Do not merely follow the folly of the faithful.
best regards,
David
Astreja,
"Argumentum ad lachrymae? I've discovered a new logical fallacy!"
Wonderful! Priceless.
The one thing that stuck out for me was how the guy claims that his "brain rotted" while he was studying to be a doctor. Although that's what happens when you put more stock in what no one can see rather than what can be seen.
Marvelous. In that case, every letter you type about "God"; every word you speak about "God", defeats the point of "God" being incomprehensible and unfathomable to our "finite minds", including your finite mind. So, I guess that about wraps it up.
Bye, now.
I happened to stumble on some portions of your book through Google book results. And its simply amazing. I have always had a problem with the christian theology and how it degrades the minds of people to ensure submission. Your book, I am sure, will help at least a few people break free from this monstrous leech.
My utmost respect to you.
Binny