DISQUS

Anonymous · 2 years ago

wow, i didn't know about jainism until now. it reflects my personal beliefs very much. I believe in no absolute truth, that there is no god but some sort of afterlife thing, and i am totally ok with anybody else's point of view. i used to be a hardcore christian fundie but i now have my own sort of gradient non-absolute sort of beliefs.

Telmi · 2 years ago

Ricky,

That was impressive. A story of discovery and of being rational.

Welcome to the club.

Ricky · 2 years ago

Thanks for the nice comments so far!

-Ricky W.

stronger now · 2 years ago

Well Ricky, I can't fault anyone for living their life on their own terms when it doesn't hurt anyone(any being?) else.

And, you made me think about my own compassion and morals(and diet) without being mean about it. Always a good thing.

Well done.

xyz3 · 2 years ago

In fairness to Christianity, only some sects sects would put an emphasis on dominion of creation meaning we can do whatever we want to animals. There are plenty of Christians who are vegetarians and animal rights activists, and plenty of Christian theologies (particularly in the reformed and episcopalian traditions) that view the last days as a restoration for all creation, including animals, and therefore place a premium on good stewardship of the environment and of other creatures in the hear-and-now, as part of being the kingdom of god on earth.

Jim Wallis once cut every verse in the bible dealing with responsible care for creation out of the bible, and didn't have much left.

I know concepts like that are foreign to a lot of people on these boards, since most of you seem to have come from pretty fundamentalist churches originally, but a pretty significant proportion of Christianity would at least agree in theory that their theology and understanding of the bible would lead them to care about the environment and animals.

I'm not really a Christian anymore myself, but I just want to make sure we aren't painting them with an inaccurate brush.

Other than that, I really enjoyed your article. I'm trying to move to a more vegetarian diet, and likewise find Jainism quite interesting.

djjazzyjess · 2 years ago

Wow! I really enjoyed reading your post. It's probably the one I can relate to the most out of any I've ever read on this site, having been vegan for the past year as of tomorrow.

I lost my faith within a month of becoming vegan, not exactly as a direct cause of being vegan but I'm sure it had a hand in it due to the same cruel quotes that you read in a supposedly "compassionate" bible.

Thanks so much for this post and for giving me something to relate to since I'm an agnostic vegan living in the heart of the bible belt in Mississippi. Neither of which are the norm, especially down here...

chris · 2 years ago

Hi Ricky,

I had always loved animals, too, and when I was young I was totally into nature.

Shortly after I became a christian, I also started deer hunting with my uncle. I hunted for years.

Then when I left christianity, I went hunting one last time. I killed a deer, and a wave of sickness came over me. All I could ask myself was "why did I do that? Why?" That was it. I realized that I now had more respect for life than I ever did as a jesus-freak fundy. I can't even squash a bug now. I use cups to catch spiders in my house. I slide a folded paper towel under the cup and carry the spiders outside and let them go.

Funny, I was also raised Catholic, and like you, I never experienced the political campaigning from the pulpit or the "gays are evil" thing until I joined up with the fundy churches, who also said that Catholics are wrong and are going to hell.

Thank you for speaking on behalf of all the non-human critters!

chris

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Ricky,

Welcome to the club...vegetarian exchristians that is.

I have been vegetarian for 41 years for many of the same reasons you have stated that you are.

I also have found much to agree with as far as Ahimsa (non-harming) values of Jaines and Buddhists.

I've been a Tibetan Buddhist for the past decade, before that I was a (mainly eastern) wisdom seeker. I have found much to explore and much to help me unshackle myself from harmful belief system residue.

Metta,
Swabby

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Excellent story Rick !

I am now a proud out of the closet atheist. I wear a No/God pin every day. You'd be surprised how many atheists you can meet this way.
Have a great godless day!
David M. Mandell

Meat Lover · 2 years ago

Don't mean to offend anyone on here, but how can you people not like meat?

I love meat! It is my favorite part of every single meal.

I am a "Meat loving Ex-Christian" and nothing will ever change my love for meat. Especially beef!

stronger now · 2 years ago

I don't think anyone is trying to "change your love for meat" on this thred.(though I could be wrong) Seems to me they are explaining their own thoughts about their own decision to go vegan. So don't get your panties in a twist.

"you people"?

I enjoy my omnivorous diet as well, but I respect a persons right to feel differently.

twincats · 2 years ago

One of the reasons I stayed Lutheran for so long was that they never tried to say that animals don't go to heaven. Since the wholly babble says nothing about critters in the afterlife, neither do the Lutherans. Later in life, I found out how many sects maintain that animals don't make it into heaven. Who needs heaven with no animals?

I have no problem with vegetarians if they have no problem with me. I have cut down on meat, but my husband is a dyed-in-the-wool carnivore, so it's difficult.

Optimalist Thinker · 2 years ago

If God did not intend that we should eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?

Meat Junkie · 2 years ago

I have to say I like meat. In my opinion, all animals including humans, reach a stage at which they become truly concious. For people, this age is probably around 2 or 3, since we can hardly remember anything before then. Animals are probably similar, but it is not clear when the reach "conciousness". I still wonder if it is acceptable to kill something that is not concious, but I have always eaten meat (most meals were planned around the meat), so I do not see much of a reason to change.

whateverlolawants · 2 years ago

Yay, another ex-Christian vegetarian!

There's a lot I could say in defense of vegetarianism, but that's not the point here, so I won't respond to the pro-meat folks here. I'm not mad at you guys, though. :)

I would have become a vegetarian either way, I believe. The church where I went didn't encourage going veg, though- it was totally silent on the topic. I imagine most folks at my old church would say animals go to heaven- I never thought any differently, even when I was a Christian. I felt that no way could a loving god not let animals into heaven. Furthermore, I wouldn't want to go to a heaven without animals.

Anyway, it makes a lot of sense how leaving Christianity and going veg go hand in hand. They didn't for me, but your story, Ricky, really was a great illustration. It was a good read, too, and thank you for sharing!

Meat Lover · 2 years ago

I don't have a problem with Vegetarians. I know some myself, I just couldn't imagine not eating meat again.

Different strokes for different folks. :)

eel_shepherd · 2 years ago

Add me to the list of vegetarian non-Christians. It will be 30 years this December since I've eaten meat or fish. (And definitely no eels...)

I know what the person means about being confronted by meat eaters who conclude, "So that means it's wrong for me to eat meat?" I usually just say, no it means it would be wrong for _me_ to eat meat. But of course something that fundamental wouldn't be wrong for one person and right for another, so in a way I suppose they have drawn the correct conclusion. Jews especially become defensive when I (jokingly) refer to their unclean eating habits.

Whatever; the wise general chooses his or her battles, and this is not one of the ones I've, uh, chosen to choose.

Ricky · 2 years ago

Thanks again for all of the nice comments!

-Ricky W.

Ricky · 2 years ago

Oh yeah, and to Chris, I also catch bugs and spiders and put them outside.

-Ricky W.

Astreja · 2 years ago

Good work, Ricky! I'm another person who would much rather evict a bug than kill it. My favourite technique is to shoo the little guy or gal into a large manila envelope, close the flap, and release the wee beastie in the closest garden patch or vacant lot.

Not currently vegetarian, although I spent about ten years as one and would consider going that way again someday. (The aroma of barbecued chicken did me in...)

The Exterminator · 2 years ago

I'm proud to say that I kill bugs anytime I see one crawling around on the floor. I'm not one bit ashamed to take my foot and smash the little buggers.

Surely you guys don't save the life of a cockroach. Those things spread diseases, and so do rats.

And I thought some christians were kind of extreme.

chris · 2 years ago

Thankfully have never had to deal with an infestation, but if I ever do, I suppose I will do what is necessary. In nature, living things kill other living things all the time, and it's pretty gruesome. (ever seen a pack of wolves rip a coyote to pieces?) I just don't believe in killing if I don't have to, and 99.9999999% of the time, I don't have to.

So, the little spiders at my house get transported out to the yard!

chris

Country Atheist & Cattle · 2 years ago

"I just don't believe in killing if I don't have to, and 99.9999999% of the time, I don't have to"

Sometimes you have to, especially if a dog or another animal tries to harm you or one of your pets.

I have lived in the country for the biggest part of my life, and we have always raised our own cattle and taken several animals to the slaughter house to put in the freezer. I don't see what the big deal is really. I'm not saying that it's wrong to be a Vegetarian, however when people strive to protect insects I just think that's a bit ridiculous IMO.

Of course I understand that most people who live in "Modern Day" America really wouldn't know how to survive if these luxuries and technologies that we take for granted were all taken away at once. It seems that most people who live in today's world live sheltered lives, and are out of touch with things that really matter. I'm not talking about religion just so some of you know. I am not a christian just for the record.

Being in the cattle business, anytime a dog or a wolf tries to kill your livestock you have to kill the dog or animal. I lost 9 calves one year because of some coyotes. There is no way I will allow a pack of wild dogs to kill my animals.

I never have been able to understand the logic of being afraid to kill a spider or another animal. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe it's right to kill an animal just to be killing it for the heck of it, and I do believe that animal cruelty is wrong, however if you kill an animal to protect yourself, or your animals from being killed, then that's what you have to do. Plus people have been eating meat for centuries.

That's the way people like myself who have lived out in the country and and on the farm have always done things. I would assume that most of you live in the city, or are from the city or suburban areas. I don't know of very many country people who are afraid to kill an insect or an animal.

Ricky · 2 years ago

Country Atheist & Cattle Farmer:
"Don't get me wrong, I don't believe it's right to kill an animal just to be killing it for the heck of it, and I do believe that animal cruelty is wrong, however if you kill an animal to protect yourself, or your animals from being killed, then that's what you have to do. Plus people have been eating meat for centuries."

I think that although most people have understood, there are still some that feel a need to be defensive. I don't think that anybody, including myself, has said that you can't kill an animal to protect yourself or "your" animals from being killed. If you can find anything even approximating that, let me know. For that matter, I wouldn't mind killing a person, if that person was trying to kill me. Fortunately, we're not talking about a situation even remotely like that.

You then say that people have been eating meat for centuries. You also say that you're not a Christian. But there have been Christians for centuries...even millennia. I'm sure that most of our ancestors going back more than a thousand years were Christians. So I think you can understand if I don't take that to mean that I HAVE to be a Christian, or that I HAVE to eat meat.

By the way, thanks for being honest, at least with your name. If you are a Toyota salesman, you're probably not going to support those who prefer Fords, and if you say up front that you're a cattle farmer, well, I guess I didn't even need to read your comment.

-Ricky W.

Country Atheist & Cattle F · 2 years ago

Ricky,
My post wasn't directed at you in particular. My post was directed at several people. What got me baffled was the statements about not wanting to kill bugs.

I am not trying to sell meat just so you know, since you compared me to a "Car Salesman". I take it that you think that anyone who raises cattle does it only to murder them all in the end. If that's what you think, then how sadly wrong you are Ricky. I would say that only 5 percent of my animals end up in my freezer, and I do not sell the meat. I keep it for myself and the rest of my family. I sell most of my cattle for breeding purposes.

There is a lot more to raising cattle than killing them for beef alone. I have also participated in showing animals at the local fairs, and the genetic improvement of certain cattle breeds. I take it that you probably don't know much about cattle genetics and the farm life based on your reaction to my last post.

I'm not telling you or anyone else to eat meat, and I understand that there are many people who choose not to eat meat for various reasons, however the thing like I mentioned earlier is that I just can't understand why so many people are so worried about killing a few bugs. They are only "Bugs", not humans for goodness sakes!!!!

Let me ask you and some of these "Animal/Insect Rights Activists" a question. If bugs destroy my crops, should I stop killing them just so the bugs can live? Is it more important that these bugs live than my crops are that feed other people? Are some of you saying that the life of a bug is more important than feeding the lives of other humans?

I don't think most people realize just what an important role that the farmer plays in our society. Most people in this modern day America are too busy playing on the internet, and playing their video games in their city and suburban homes to really understand what goes on in the Agricultural community.

It also seems that a lot of people today don't have a whole lot of what I call, "Good Ol' Fashion Common Sense" anymore.

I have to agree that anyone who is so worried about killing a bug is a lot like an extremist christian. It's almost like a bug's life is just as important to some people as Jesus is to these christians. Some of you (who think like that) are just as bad as these christian screw jobs are.

I'm sure these christians would think it was sad that Atheists have more respect for a bug than they do for their loving Jesus who they worship all of the time. I can hear these christians saying that now.

Some of you kind of make yourselves look just about as nuts as these christians do when it comes to worrying about the life of an insect. People who worry so much about killing an insect are just as much of an extremist as these christians are.

I gave some of you way too much credit it would seem.

Just like they don't want to drill up in Alaska for oil because of silly reasons such as "The Spotted Owl", yet many people are willing to pay ridiculous prices at the gas pump.

I tell you what. When the fuel prices get so high that nobody can hardly afford to drive their vehicle anymore, maybe some of you can gather up some of these feathers from the "Spotted Owl" and use them for fuel instead.

Country Atheist & Cattle F · 2 years ago

Contrary to what some people may believe, not all "Atheists" are bleeding heart, "Animal/Insect Rights" activists.

Ricky · 2 years ago

To Country Atheist & Cattle Farmer:

You say that only 5% of your animals end up in your freezer, and the rest are sold as breeding animals, and thus - it seems you want me to conclude - you somehow have no affiliation to the meat industry. Now, it's true - I'm a city slicker, so I don't know the ultimate fate of the animals you sell, but I doubt the purpose of breeding cattle is so that we can admire their herding behavior. So you are still making money in the cattle industry, and thus have a stake in it. So my premise remains valid.

You say that people who don't kill bugs are strange, but I think that the strange people are those who get so enraged that we don't kill them. Now, do I eat 100% organic food that wasn't sprayed with pesticides? No. On the other hand, if there is just a random spider that I can easily catch with a cup and take outside - all within a scant 30 seconds - yeah, I'll do that. Why not? Here's a better question - Why get bent out of shape about it if someone does.

Do I worship spiders? Do I think that when I die, I will be judged by spiders and moths? Do I go to bug-worship service every week? Do bugs bend scientific laws? Again, No. Will I spare a bug's life if it isn't doing me any harm at all? Well, sure.

By the way, the spotted owl doesn't live in Alaska. Look it up. Now, if you want to get into a debate with me about oil, you're sure to lose. I'm a regular at TheOilDrum.com, and unless you know what MTOE and EROEI mean, don't get started with me. The short answer is that we are going to use ANWR, and the environmentalists keeping our greedy hands off it for this long has been a saving grace, because maybe we will have some energy left to start on a renewable energy program. Then again, maybe not. If, say, (and this is unrealistic) the U.S. exploited this domestic source of oil located in ANWR to get us off foreign oil, it would last for only 2 years before becoming completely depleted. It's not a silver bullet, and conservation can do much more. I'm pretty sure you haven't heard about "Peak Oil". Go to Wikipedia if you want. Maybe I'm crazy. At any rate, get back to me in 10 years and we'll see who's right.

But none of this deals with the matters I've been discussing. I've just responded to your off-topic rant.

Again, Country Atheist & Cattle Farmer, name one person on this thread who said that all atheists are bleeding heart animal rights activists.

I'm sorry that my personal story has upset you so much that you make up things that you want to have read, instead of things that you actually read here.

If you ever want to have a real conversation, first tell me who here
1) said that it is wrong to kill animals that are attacking you and
2) said that all atheists are animal-rights activists

Until then, I must say that I have no respect for people who make false, baseless claims (especially in the pursuit of trying to win an argument).

Sharon · 2 years ago

Thank you, Ricky W. I could relate to wishing I could have the lost Sundays back but did not dare think such a thought on my own. Your reference to bigot ("So, at no point did I become a bigot...") reminded me of my own past bigotry which I still have a hard time thinking of as bigotry but it really was. Thank you for "my suffering showed that I really cared." That was a big theme during my days with the cult, too. And, "the answer was that life is infinitely small compared to the time we'd spend in heaven," resonated with me, too. I'm still affected by that doctrine. (Though I left the faith long ago, it hasn't left me.)And, in response to, "But like an atheist couldn't give up their reason, even if they were 'forced' to at the end of a sword, I can't give up my 'extra' compassion, even when others criticize me," I say: Go, Ricky W.! Stick to your convictions, and thank you for making me think about my own moral beliefs around eating meat. FYI, there is one Bible reference I know of aimed at "trying to ease animal suffering." It is found in the tenth verse of the twelfth chapter of Proverbs. "A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel." Just one reference isn't very redeeming, is it? But I thought you would be interested to know. Thanks again for making me think.

Ricky · 2 years ago

Thanks a lot for your comment, Sharon!

-Ricky W.

rickyusvi · 2 years ago

I don’t kill spiders. Anything that eats mosquitoes is a friend of mine. The cobwebs got to go, though.

Geckos and anoles live, but i much prefer them outside the house.

Ants live as long as they stay out of my food.

Roaches, it depends on whether my belligerence outweighs my laziness at 3 in the morning. Moths live until they fly into my face or onto the computer screen. Then they get the electric tennis racket.

Rats, mosquitoes, and termites die. No appeal.

N.B. AFAIK, there are no dangerous spiders (e.g., brown recluse) in my neighborhood.